FamilyLife Today®

Ron Deal: Every person on the planet, when we get into that dysregulated place where fight or flight has kicked in, the ability to do what we know to do sort of slips away in our flesh. As long as my old self is governing, I will constantly just go into blame, shame, control, or escape.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Ann Wilson: I think one of the hardest things about marriage and the Bible is you know what’s right, you know how you should act, you know up here in your head this is what it says and this is what I know I should do.

Dave Wilson: And I always do it.

Ann Wilson: I don’t. Is that where you’re going? I don’t do it. That’s why I’m like, how do we do it?

Dave Wilson: There are witnesses in the room. We know that’s not true.

Ann Wilson: I read that verse and I go, that is so amazing. I’m going to do that. Yes, me too. And then I walk out and I go, no, I’m not going to do that. I didn’t do it. No.

Dave Wilson: In case you’re wondering, yes, you recognize these voices. This is Ron and Nan Deal. They are back with us in the studio of FamilyLife Today, and we’re so glad to have you guys back because you’re going to answer this question.

Ron Deal: In some ways, is it what Paul said in Romans 7? I know what I want to do, but I struggle to do it. Then he turns around in Romans 8 and he says the life controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. Great, how do I get from the flesh of chapter 7 to the Spirit life of chapter 8?

This is the struggle of every single person on the planet. If you deny this struggle, you are just lying. It’s a daily struggle, right? Every day. This is a daily struggle, and it’s frustrating.

I think it applies to our walk with God and our walk in relationships with other people. I know how I should live and be moved toward holiness, and I also know what I need to do to love my wife well and serve my children, my friends, and my coworkers. I don’t always show up in those ways, and so there’s the gap.

Dave Wilson: So you’re going to answer this for us today.

Ron Deal: Ta-da! Ron Deal is going to answer the question. I remember, honestly, this was decades ago, sitting on a park bench with Nan with all these people walking around in our hometown, and we were in a thing. It was a huge fight.

I just remember literally sitting there thinking, she just needs me to be tender and listen to her, hear her, and see her. I remember sitting there thinking, I can’t do it. I know what I need to do, and I literally cannot do it right now.

Nan Deal: Because your brain just went offline into that flesh.

Ron Deal: In our book, *The Mindful Marriage*, we talk about the pain cycle, and that’s a good example of a pain cycle. I am, in this moment, totally discombobulated, and I do not even know how to begin to do the right things in this moment. At the end of the day, that’s what we’re driving at here: how do I put on holiness and my best self in my worst moments?

So, Mark chapter 8. Let’s take a little diversion to get there. Mark chapter 8, there’s a really interesting story where Jesus heals a blind man, but he has to touch him twice. Do you remember this? He touches him the first time and he says, "What do you see?" The guy says, "I see people, but they look like trees." Jesus touches him a second time.

It’s the most bizarre story in the Bible. To me, I’m like, what? Well, Mark is doing a literary technique to teach something without saying it. In this case, in Mark 8, you read before Mark 8 and read after Mark 8.

Here’s what happens. In Mark chapter 6, Jesus feeds the 5,000. We really know that’s 5,000 men; there are probably 15,000 to 25,000 people. In the beginning of Mark 8, Jesus feeds the 4,000, and the disciples complain a few minutes after that that they don’t have anything to eat. Jesus says, "Do you have eyes but fail to see?"

Oh, wait a minute. Here comes Mark 8, the rest of Mark 8, about a blind man who has eyes but he fails to see. Keep reading after Mark 8, the story of the blind man, and we have another story of Jesus saying, "Who do people say that I am?" Peter says, "You’re the Christ, you’re the Son of the living God."

Then what happens? Jesus says, "I’m going to die and go to the cross." Peter says, "Oh, no you’re not." Jesus says, "Get behind me, Satan."

Peter has the right answer, but he doesn’t see clearly who Jesus is. He sees the one he wants to see. He’s got his agenda in the way of seeing Jesus clearly. Mark uses the story of the blind man to comment on what is happening with the disciples who are walking with Jesus face to face and still don’t see him clearly.

This is every Christian on the planet. We see, but we don’t always see clearly. Why? Because sometimes we’re pushing our agenda in the way. Sometimes we want what we want. Sometimes we have the right answers, but we really have no intention of living based on or surrendering to the right answer. We just want what we want, and our flesh gets in the way.

There you go. The gap between knowing, seeing, and really seeing clearly and doing is often about me and my flesh. Now, one of the things we’ve discovered and we lay out in *The Mindful Marriage* is the neurology of the old self. That’s the Romans 7—I keep on doing the things that I don’t want to do.

It’s when I show up, when my agenda shows up, when my pain drives me to start being reactive in my relationships and in my view of God. That gets in the way of me seeing clearly and acting, being obedient based on God’s word.

In those moments, sitting on that park bench is a good example. Something is going inside of you that just doesn’t feel right. I don’t feel loved or incredibly safe in this moment for whatever reason. So now my blame, shame, control, escape stuff starts coming out of me rather than "What does God ask me to do?" How can I be obedient to what a loving person would bring? How can I be safe for her in this moment of our relationship?

Dave Wilson: For me, when I was in that moment, I think—and again, this is decades ago, but I can still remember thinking this—she doesn’t appreciate how I am loving her and giving my life for her. I am loving her, and she’s saying I’m not and she’s not feeling it.

I was mad that she couldn’t appreciate it, and my default was I’m going to get up and I’m going to walk away from this park bench and I’m going to escape and probably go play ball or go hang out with my guys or go to work, whatever, where they appreciate me because she doesn’t. I knew that’s the wrong move, but I couldn’t make the right move of, "Hey, tell me what you’re feeling. Why do you not appreciate what I’m doing? I think I’m doing the right thing." I couldn’t do it.

Ron Deal: Dave, I’m just like that. Every person on the planet, when we get into that dysregulated place where fight or flight has kicked in, the ability to do what we know to do sort of slips away in our flesh. As long as my old self is governing, I will constantly just go into blame, shame, control, or escape.

The challenge for us as believers is to say, how do I bridge the gap between knowing and doing, seek Jesus clearly in this moment, and begin to say I’ve got to bring a better me so that I can finally change at least the dynamic with me? That might change the dynamic going on within us. I can’t get from you what I’m feeling will make me feel appreciated, but can I find that sense from somewhere else? And of course, that’s vertical.

Nan Deal: I’m going to tell on myself. Coming here involved lots of travel, and in the past, traveling was one of Ron’s big triggers. He likes to control the narrative: the airports, the rental cars, the flights. He tries, anyway.

I’m sitting there yesterday, thankfully walking in the Spirit with him. Some of his behaviors are still the same: the way he gets on a plane, the way he wants me to get on the plane with him. We’re group three, but honey, we better be moving when she says group one.

Ron Deal: I’m a rule follower. It says three. I’m not going to move.

Nan Deal: I had my moment of clarity yesterday where it was like, this is him. This is his way, and I can move with him and be in peace and community with that and not care about it, or I could become all those things, dysregulated like on the park bench, and just have a moment and be resentful. The thing is, his behaviors have not changed, but I have changed.

Ron Deal: Which totally changes the "us-ness" that comes out.

Nan Deal: And you know, I was shackled to that old self. I tell you what, I feel freedom, I feel peace, I feel more communing with the Lord in that than staying stuck in that defensiveness and bitterness.

Dave Wilson: At FamilyLife, we get to hear stories from couples and families whose lives have been changed through what God is doing through FamilyLife, and that is incredible for us to get to hear. Sometimes it begins at one of our marriage events; other times it’s through a podcast, a resource, or just a simple conversation that reminds someone they’re not alone.

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Ann Wilson: Well, let me have my little confession.

Dave Wilson: All right, bring it home. What is this going to be?

Ann Wilson: Dave and I, we’ve been speaking together for probably 35 or more years. I know one of the things that happens—not all the time, but it can happen—Dave gets very short and snappy right before we get up.

Dave Wilson: That could be me, absolutely.

Ann Wilson: Like he’s just short and snappy and "Where’s this? What are you doing? Let’s go. Yes, let’s go. What are you doing? Where’s that? Did you forget that?"

I need to be in a good place spiritually, and he’s like, "What are you doing? Where’s that? Did you forget that?" I need some love and calmness and Kumbaya. "Thanks for doing this with me. This is amazing. You look so pretty."

Ron Deal: Maybe you ladies need to speak together. That’d be fun.

Nan Deal: And now I realize this is Dave. He’s processing, he’s going through things. It’s not about me; it’s not personal.

Ron Deal: I’m going to add, as I’m complimenting my wife here, what she now sees is my pain underneath the control. Because the control is all she saw before, but now she sees, oh, he’s feeling inadequate.

I’m wrestling with, are we okay? There’s an anxiety here. So, I want to provide, oddly enough, that control for me is about restoring safety for her and for me. Now, I absolutely have to ring this in. My confession here is as much as I still do that, I do far less of it than I used to. I still have work to do, but at least I know what this thing is and I know why it is.

The why is so important for me. Am I inadequate if we don’t get on the plane? Well, first of all, they’re going to let us on the plane. So Ron, just relax. This is where the four steps come in from *The Mindful Marriage*.

What am I feeling? I’m feeling inadequate, like if we don’t get on, something is wrong with me. What I usually do is I go into control—that’s it, step two. Step three is what’s the truth? The truth is they’re going to let us on the plane. It’s really going to be okay.

By the way, step four is what am I going to do different based on relaxing and calming myself? Well, I’m going to let Nan walk on first rather than me walking on, because then I’m following her rather than pulling her. I’ve just got to breathe deep and I’ve just got to say it’s going to be okay. I still like to get on and get my luggage in the thing. There’s a whole lot going on in my head while we’re standing in line just to get on the airplane.

Is all that going on in your head before we get up to speak?

The lie that I’m believing in my head, the inadequacy, is if we’re not great, I’m not good. They don’t love me, they don’t accept me, they won’t ask us back. We’ve got to be great.

Dave Wilson: He says this to me all the time. "I’m under this performance thing anyway." And he says to me, "We’ve got to be great."

Ron Deal: So Dave, you and I, here’s the thing for performance people, control people. Performance identity is no identity at all because you’re only as good as your last performance, which means the next time, even though you killed it last time, you’ve got to get up and you’ve got to do it again the next time. So you’re constantly chasing a sense of self.

We’ve talked before about our identity ultimately coming from knowing God loves me and I’m safe in his care. If I can keep reminding myself of that—now that’s the knowing, I still haven’t gotten to doing yet—I have to say, okay, that’s the truth. Can I align myself with the truth?

Guys, here’s the punchline of closing the gap between knowing and doing, seeing Jesus really clearly. Can I align me with him? Peter said, "You’re the Christ, the Son of the God," and yes, that’s absolutely right. Now, can you align yourself, Peter? Can you get in line with that truth because I’m about to die?

No, he couldn’t. He’s going to say, "No, God, you’re never going to die. You’re never going to the cross." He could not align himself. This is discipleship, when I am constantly reminding myself of what’s true and then saying, "All right, Lord, I submit to that. Now I’m going to do something based on my submission and alignment with what you say."

So for somebody who’s living in shame over a trauma in their life or a difficulty in their life, or somebody who didn’t love you and now you find yourself really questioning—my dad wasn’t there, my first husband wasn’t there, here I am in this marriage wondering if you’re really going to be there for me—okay, so instead of being doubtful of you and leaning out away from you in this relationship, I am going to choose to bring all of me into this relationship.

How can I do that? I’m holding on to God telling me I’m safe. God tells me I’m loved. Based on that, I align myself and I give in sacrificial love to you, not living in fear but out of the overflow of what God has given me. It is only when we start obeying that we actually align ourselves with God’s truth.

That’s hard. I think every Christian disciple spends our entire life trying to figure out how to obey, how to obey, how to obey. It is a daily effort and walk, overcoming my neurological old self trying to move into my Christ-centered new self. This is difficult.

Dave Wilson: I mean, in a sense, I think you’re saying it’s where we started with Romans 7. It’s Romans 8:1: "There is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus." That’s how Paul answers his own question. It’s already been done. I’m secure. Again, we have to remind ourselves that’s what we know and then we have to do it. We have to live it.

Ron Deal: You’ve got to get into the doing, Spirit-living.

Dave Wilson: Because I know, we’re talking about going on stage and speaking together, as a preacher, I had to do that every week. So I got in a rut for years when I first was doing this of, every Sunday has to be a Super Bowl victory. Not just good—great.

So when you walk in as a guest speaker somewhere, you give them your best stuff and people go, "Wow," and you’re like, "I’ve done this five times, it better be good." But when you’ve got to do it every week to the same people who you feel like are judging you, I had to get to a point—and I did, didn’t I?—I got to a point where it’s like, I don’t have to be the best. I have to give my best.

God wants me to do this. I call it as an unblemished lamb. Don’t give them a blemished lamb; give them your best. Give them the best you’ve got. Do your homework, study the Scripture, teach it, and walk off the stage confident. "You know what, it wasn’t as good as I could have done, but you know what, it was the best I got, and I’m okay."

And I can get in the car and go, "Thank you, Jesus. I served you today. I am okay." If they thought it was a three out of 10, I’m okay with that because I did the best I could.

Ron Deal: That’s aligning yourself with the truth and taking action based on it. And let me ask you a follow-up question. Because my bet is, the more you did that, the easier it got.

Dave Wilson: Oh, yeah.

Ron Deal: And you want to know why? Here’s the neurology of this. Your brain can rewire. It’s called neuroplasticity, and sometimes it’s by renewing your mind. That’s what Romans 12 tells us—be transformed by the renewing of your mind. You change your thoughts about yourself.

But there’s another part of changing who we are, transforming, which is obedience from a physiological standpoint. When you move your body in a certain direction, it begins to change your brain. It’s not just mindful thoughts outside your body that change it; it’s behavior changes your brain. So the more you obey, the more holiness you put on, the easier holiness becomes. It’s fantastic, it’s amazing. You actually find it easier to walk in the light.

Nan Deal: I think that’s what I was experiencing yesterday, and I take it as a gift from God to show me that. Because I cannot tell you enough how many years I stayed in that resentment and bitterness traveling. I just would get the suitcase out and be mad. And I now go, "What time do we need to walk out the door, babe, that’ll make you feel good and feel comfortable?" I’m serving him because I know that’s a hard space for him to be in. I want to align myself with him, but I’m aligning myself with God.

I’m asking people to pray for me still in this space. It’s a hard—still is—but I felt God saying, "You’re different. Do you see that?" I never thought my brain could change. I never did.

Ron Deal: And it has.

Nan Deal: And it has.

Dave Wilson: And that’s your living in the identity of Christ.

Ann Wilson: It’s such a gift. It’s the power of the Holy Spirit.

Nan Deal: It is. I constantly complained about Dave in my head. It was an ongoing conversation in my head.

Dave Wilson: And I gave you every reason to complain. I really did.

Ann Wilson: But I couldn’t get out of that rut. But by God’s grace, I seldom in my head complain about him. So people that are listening, like, God can do that. There is hope.

Dave Wilson: Well, I remember that sermon thing—preaching, I’ve got to be the best. I remember having this thought one day of like, "Oh, maybe I am understanding who I am in Christ."

I got done with a sermon. It was like the next day and I ran into somebody at our church that was at another campus. We had eight campuses, and I wrote the message that all the other guys did. And this lady said to me like at a grocery store, "Oh, I heard Zarbo yesterday," who’s one of our preachers and he’s really good, "he was so good. His message was so profound. It was so done well, so well."

In my insecure days, I would have gone, "I wrote it. You know, he gave my message."

Ron Deal: You would have sought that appreciation.

Dave Wilson: Oh, I would have gone for it. Because I’m sitting there thinking, and I go, "Man, he is good, isn’t he?" And I walked away and I said, "Good for you. I’m a different guy. I am secure in Christ. I don’t need her to know I wrote it and I’m the deep guy, he did."

Ron Deal: So that’s what you experienced when you say you travel differently.

Nan Deal: Oh, definitely. I feel it.

Ron Deal: I feel it too. And I am so in love with you. Thank you for all of that. But I’m constantly having to look at myself going, "How am I growing up? What am I doing different? How do I do that?"

Speaking of being different, we were hitting on Peter a minute ago. "You’re the Christ." Then he turns around, argues with Jesus, and Jesus says, "Get behind me." Did Peter ever figure it out? Well, 30 years later, Peter writes 1 Peter chapter 1. Listen to this: "So prepare your minds for action and exercise self-control."

There’s the nutshell. You want to be transformed? You prepare your mind. You constantly be reminding yourself of what is true about me from God’s point of view. What is that source? How’s that going to fuel who I am? And then I’ve got to put on self-control. I’ve got to do something different. I’ve got to manage me. Stop waiting for Nan to show up the way I need her to, Ron. Put on self-control and start living differently.

And it starts in your minds. Peter goes on, "Put all your hope in the gracious salvation that will come to you"—see, the vertical source—"when Jesus comes revealed to the world. So you must live as God’s obedient children." There it is. It’s not enough to go walk into church and hear a good sermon and walk out with knowledge. We’ve got to do it.

And then he says, "Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your old desires." That’s the old self stuff, the flesh. "You didn’t know any better then," he says. "But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy."

The word "put on self-control" there could be translated "be sober-minded." It literally means don’t be drunk. Be sober in your thinking. And that’s how you put on self-control. When you’re drunk, you’re out of control. When we’re in our old flesh, our old pain, we’re out of control or controlled by—we’re slaves to that old self. We’re giving into that reactivity.

But to say, "Wait a minute, I’ve got to take charge over that part of me and be different," is to be sober, is to be self-controlled. That’s when the gap between knowing and doing closes.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and it also reminds me of Ephesians 5:18, where Paul says, "Don’t get drunk on wine," because you brought up that same thing. "But be filled with the Spirit." And it’s interesting that "be filled" is a continual filling. This isn’t "I walked down the aisle one day and I’m all good." It’s like every day, you keep being filled or controlled by the Spirit of God and not controlled by alcohol or your own flesh.

Ron Deal: So that’s the answer? That’s how you do, not just know.

Ann Wilson: And I think for me, I mean, I’ve gotten into this habit of every morning, I lay in bed, I wake up, my eyes open, and my prayer is, "God, I give you my life today. Fill me with your Spirit so that you live in and through me." It’s that yielding and surrender and then obedience to it.

Ron Deal: Definitely.

Dave Wilson: This has been good. Thank you for all your confessions today.

Ron Deal: Me too.

Dave Wilson: Again, the book is *The Mindful Marriage*. We have it at familylifetoday.com. Just click on the link in the show notes and let it change your life.

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