FamilyLife Today®

Alicia Michelle: We start thinking through what aspect of this is a lie, what aspect of this is true, what would God say about this. We have to discern, "I don't want that to drag me down that path again because that's not where God wants me to go." So the discern step is saying what is true and what is not true, asking the Holy Spirit for His clarity on how to find that answer so we know what to do with it next.

Dave Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. We've got an emotional coach back with us. How do you feel about that? How do you like talking about all these emotions?

Dave Wilson: I actually do, as long as she doesn't counsel me or jump into my life. But no, she is; it's really helpful stuff and you're going to love it. She wrote a book called "Emotional Confidence," and we're going to jump in right now. Let's go.

Ann Wilson: Let me ask you, because I'll ask women a lot of times as we go through trauma or just lies from the past. What is the lie that you started to believe about yourself, and the lie you started to believe about God? Were there any lies—I can hear the lies you're believing about yourself, "I have to be perfect"—what about God? Was there anything skewed in your view of God?

Alicia Michelle: That is the thing that I think a lot of men and women—I work specifically with women—it's amazing when we start digging into this, we can see, "Yes, I'm believing a lie." But as part of that, there's been so many things that have happened that are challenging or difficult or painful. There's this slow, little crack in our foundation of faith in God that's developed.

We can't move forward in that confidence in Christ if we have this little crack of, "Yeah, but is He going to come through? Is He really good? Because if He's really good, then why did my mom die? Why did He allow that to happen to my son? Why did I go through this terrible divorce?"

Even if we can sit on the outside and go, "God is good, we trust Him, we love Him," if there's that little bit of, "Yeah, but..." this is why dealing with the emotions is so important. It's building inside and it is separating us from God so that suddenly we find, it's really hard for me to trust God again. It's really hard for me to have faith that He's going to change this. I don't know if I'm going to walk away from my faith, but how do I move forward?

Ann Wilson: I think Dave and I experienced that. I have sexual abuse. "Lord, where were You?" Dave's dad walked out on them. That was a big one for you. And your brother dying; you were seven years old. You've got to be kidding me.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I basically didn't know it—I don't think we do at that age—but I believed the lie that I have no one taking care of me, I take care of me. I had an amazing mom. I felt like she cared for me, but it was like, "There's no God." My mom believes in Him, and I used to snicker, like, "How do you believe in a God that let this happen?"

I think I developed the lie, "I've got to be good. I'm gifted at this, so that's my ticket. I'll be loved and approved and get all the accolades and walk into the high school and everybody will know who I am because I can do something on a football field." That was my lie.

Then the question is, again, I come to Christ in college and I'm a new creature in Christ, but I bring that into our marriage. I don't realize I'm bringing that into our marriage. We had Deborah Fileta on here several times, and Deborah has a quote that says, "Marriage is a mirror to your wounds." When she said that, I was like, "She's right." It's like you get this gift, which you hate, because they're showing you who you are.

You hate that, but it's a gift. She is reflecting back some of these wounds you don't realize are there. They're going to come out. Marriage has that amazing ability to bring it all out. Then you've got to deal with it, and a lot don't, and they can't make it.

Ann Wilson: Maybe this is a good time to get into your book and talk about your ADD principles of how we—that could be a good way to enter into this conversation.

Alicia Michelle: Before we enter in, I wanted to comment on what you said. I think what's the hardest part is that you can sit here and say that you have all that happening, you have the awareness. But imagine if you're just going through life and if you haven't given yourself permission, or it's too painful, you don't want to look at that.

All you know is, "It's just hard to trust God," or "I'm constantly angry, I'm constantly frustrated. I don't know how to get over this. I don't know how to get past this." If you haven't made that connection and felt like you have the ability, what do you do with that? This is why so many people are stuck in this overwhelm, exhaustion rut of survival, because they just have all this going on but they don't even know what it's coming from.

Dave Wilson: And they probably feel guilty about having these doubts and wondering if God is there. They can't even say it out loud.

Alicia Michelle: But you're saying if you're having that, it's a good indicator, "Oh, I need to go back and see where that crack started." This is why, to answer your question, Ann, with the model of ADD, the very first step is acknowledge. There is so much freedom in just acknowledging what's happening. We can acknowledge with compassion, because that is the Holy Spirit's response to our pain. It's compassion.

He doesn't look at our pain and say, "You should just get over that. Why are you still dealing with that? What is wrong with you? Why do you doubt? Haven't I proven Myself to you?" He sees, "I understand why you were driven, Dave, because of what happened in your family. I understand why it's there." So let's just see it and acknowledge it for what it is without judging it, but just seeing it, bringing it out into the open.

Dave Wilson: Do you sometimes need somebody like you or somebody beside you to go—because other times, I think I couldn't see it. Somebody says "acknowledge it" and I'd be like, "Acknowledge what?" They're looking at me, especially Ann, like, "Are you kidding me? That big elephant right there, don't you see it?" But a lot of times when you're living it, you're like, "Is it really that bad?"

Ann Wilson: And how do you do that if you're a spouse and you see it in each other? How do you step into that? Should we?

Dave Wilson: What would you say, Ann, about especially in light of your book and not wanting to boo on your husband, as you said?

Ann Wilson: I think personality-wise, I'm the type who will be like, "Do you not see this?" and I probably didn't say it nice at the beginning. Other people just get resentful. They're not as verbal and vocal, so then this bitterness will kind of just take this root and then you don't even like your spouse.

But I think, and you can coach us all, but for me it was a matter of prayer. Also, I'll just be honest, I had to get to the point where I've got my own junk. Maybe I should be looking at my stuff first. But I do know that Dave doesn't verbalize as much when he sees things in me. I wish he would, because I want to be better and I can't see it, and sometimes I need him to say it.

I think if we would look at it in a way like we're here as a team and we're going to help each other to be better, to not be so defensive, I think there's such a beauty in marriage because God put us together to gently say, "Hey, your past, man, I can't even know what that could have been like. I don't know if I could have survived it, but I'm seeing this in you that you don't even want to talk about any of this."

Dave Wilson: One time with the guys that I was doing life at the time, three guys, we met every Wednesday for a couple hours. We were in each other's lives for decades. I remember when I came in, and this was because Ann said to me in the kitchen that week, she said something and I blew up.

She just turned—and I can still see her, we had little boys at the time, little tiny kitchen—she just goes, "You know, every time I bring something up, that's what you do. I'm not bringing stuff up anymore," and she walks away. Not mad, just exhausted. I remember looking at her and I think I said, "What do you mean?" and she goes, "Exhibit A."

I sit with these guys like two days later and I'll never forget this. I go, "Guys, I didn't tell them that, I just said, 'Hey, I got a question.'" They're like, "What's up?" I go, "Of all the emotions that we experience as guys, what do you experience the most? Which one?" I'm not kidding, all three guys go, "Emotions? Like what?"

They didn't even have—so I had to throw it out like, "Sadness, happiness, joy, anger." Every guy goes, "That's easy. Anger." Then they're like, "Wilson, why are you asking this?" and I told them that story and I realized, "Okay, that's a very common emotion, maybe for women, I don't know, but for guys it was," and I go on a study then to understand anger. I didn't know anything about it because I'm like, "I think I have a problem, she's identified it, I better look into it."

Alicia Michelle: So anger is a really interesting emotion and that it is kind of what we could call a surface emotion. Anger, frustration, they're kind of all in the same world. They're often those emotions we feel first because if you think of like a pot of boiling water on a stove, our emotions might be the water inside there. If we don't keep track of the heat underneath or we're not monitoring how that's going, the water is going to boil over.

A lot of times, it's not surprising that you're saying that as a guy that anger is the main emotion. I've heard that before, but just that you're testifying to that because if you don't know what's going on, you're not going to know why the water is boiling. You're just going to see it boiling over and that's anger, that's overwhelm, that's exhaustion. That's where a lot of people start is just that, because that's the most obvious.

However, as we dig underneath that, we see, "Oh, it's not just sadness," there's bitterness, there's loss, there's jealousy, these other things. I can deal with the anger, but if I don't address the root behind the anger, then I'm just putting a Band-Aid on it over and over again. But as a guy, if you're not thinking about your emotions or dealing with them, it makes sense that anger is the first one that you're going to feel.

In the first chapter of the book, I say, "I'm going to tell you why emotions are causing problems in our culture, etc, etc. But the point of this is you need to be at a place where you're in pain enough to do something about it." You've come to a point like you did, Dave, where you're like, "I don't want this to be my legacy. I love my wife, I don't want her to think I'm angry at her."

If we are not frustrated enough about the way we're living, we're not going to make a change to begin to investigate it. But the great news is that there are ways, there are tools that we can learn. There are things that we can help ourselves about our body, about our mind to understand those things and then to invite the Holy Spirit in to help us.

Ann Wilson: I love the A for acknowledge. Even, Dave, you acknowledging that you're angry. For a spouse to say, "I'm angry and I need to figure out what's underneath this." No, I think it's really important, this interesting conversation about this in marriage, because there are many times, especially if there's this difference between one spouse who's super aware of their emotions and the other one's kind of like, "Huh?"

Alicia Michelle: This is what God has had to teach me—and we're going to be married 25 years in March—the fact that just because I'm feeling it and it may be even something that's happened and it's real, it doesn't mean I have to bring it up. Sometimes it's just something that I need to work through with the Lord, this emotion.

I keep bringing it to Him and it keeps coming up and there's not a lot of resolution, then maybe I bring it to my husband. But I used to in the beginning be like, "Everything!" and he was like, "What?" So God has had to teach me, which I think flows really well into the whole idea of emotions because we're talking to God about it, we're going to Him about it. As part of this, it's not that it's a foreign concept, but let me work this out with You. Is this something I need to bring to my husband?

Dave Wilson: Wait, is this the discern?

Ann Wilson: And let me add this, too. This is true about your kids, too. Because sometimes, especially as our kids get older, we're constantly on them. So to ask God, "God, should I say this?" Just because we feel it doesn't mean we should say it, and especially with adult kids.

Alicia Michelle: But at the other side, you don't want to stuff it. So we're not talking about stuffing. We're talking about getting it out, we're speaking to the Lord, we're not stuffing, we're not running, but what are we doing with it after that? Good distinction, right? Because you need to get it out. God wants us to get it out, but we don't have to get it out and give it to someone else.

But the thing with adult kids, boy, you are right on track. In fact, the other night—23, 21, 18, and 14 are my kids' ages—there was a conversation that we had with a child who we have a pretty good relationship at this point. He walked away, the child walked away, and my husband turns to me and he goes, "You know, I don't think we need to ask him anymore about this certain thing. I think that we just need to let him do it and let him figure it out."

I'm like, "But, but!" He's like, "I know what you're thinking, honey, but I really, I really think we just need to let it go." I'm like, "Okay," you just have to. I remember a few episodes ago, you guys had Kevin Thompson with "Stay in Your Lane." We shared that with our small group Bible study that's parents of adult children. I shared it with everyone in our group and they were like, "Man!" Because that's that concept, it's the same thing. But I like that you said, you're not stuffing it if we're taking it to God and talking to Him about it. It's the best thing we can do with it.

Luke Middendorf: Hi friends, I'm Luke Middendorf, President of FamilyLife. For 50 years, God has been using this ministry to restore marriages and strengthen families. That happens because people like you show up. This month, your gift is matched dollar for dollar. Every dollar you give reaches twice as many families with the truth and hope of the gospel. Give today at FamilyLifeToday.com or call 800-FL-TODAY. We're grateful for you.

Dave Wilson: Okay, you only did the A.

Alicia Michelle: I only did the A. I guess we're sort of talking about the discern. Acknowledge is saying, "It makes sense that I feel this way because..." That's kind of a statement. In the book and in the coaching that I do, we teach people how to make an ADD statement. So you're saying, "It makes sense I feel this way because..." that's the acknowledge. Then for discern, we're saying, "It's true that this, but it's not true this."

If we think of this whole process as like we're going into a closet, a really messy closet, we're pulling all the stuff out onto the floor. Acknowledge is pulling all the yucky and the good out. It's all out there. The discern part is saying, "What do I want to keep?" First, what is helpful and true according to scripture? And then, is it helpful? It may not even be a scriptural point, but is it helpful for me to still have this piece of clothing, so to speak?

We start thinking through what aspect of this is a lie, what aspect of this is true, what would God say about this? Because everything is intertwined. It might be that voice from fourth grade telling me that I'm not good enough, and we have to discern, "I don't want that to drag me down that path again because that's not where God wants me to go." So the discern step is saying what is true and what is not true, asking the Holy Spirit for His clarity on how to find that answer so we know what to do with it next.

Ann Wilson: Give us an example of what that looks like. Besides the closet—I like the closet—so am I picking this up in the closet and deciding and holding it up thinking, "Hmm"?

Alicia Michelle: Am I going to keep that? Am I going to hang it back up? Is it time for it to go to Goodwill? Does it just need to go in the trash? What do I do with this? God, show me, because it can get really tricky. We can think, "But it feels like I'm afraid that she's going to say this, I'm afraid that this is going to happen." Well, that again, we're acknowledging that that makes sense, but is that fear something that we want to hold on to that's healthy?

An example of that: if we can acknowledge this whole idea of being disappointed. A lot of times we feel disappointed about things. So we can acknowledge the disappointment is real, this really happened, it makes sense that I'm feeling this way. I'm sad about it. I didn't like that it happened and we can let the Lord give us compassion for that.

But the discern part says, "But is it true that this is my future, a hopeless future? Is it true that I'll never find love again? Is it true that I'll never find a friend I can trust again? Is it true that my child's going to hurt me in the same way again?" Is that true? No, not necessarily. I don't know. It may be true, but I don't want that to be my truth that guides my days.

What is true is that I am called to love. I'm called to believe in God's goodness and a plan that's beyond what I can understand. So I'm going to the next step, which we're kind of getting into, which is decide. What am I going to do with all of this? What's my next best step in light of what I've discovered?

I'm going to choose to release the fear that I have that I'm going to be hurt again, the fear that, like we were talking about with the child, the fear that this child is going to blow up their life. I have to surrender that to You and, as a second half of decide, I'm going to dwell. Where am I going to emotionally dwell? So important, because if we don't take that step, we're just going to go right back to the fear and the crazy. Where am I going to dwell? I'm going to dwell in Your good promise. You keep me safe, You give me a fresh start, You love me, I believe that You can redeem this. That's what Your word says, so I'm living in that moving forward.

Dave Wilson: Does it easily—not easily—but does it apply to marriage where you're disappointed? Because I think every marriage at some point—and I mean that, every marriage at some point—is disappointed. Usually it's somewhat early because you have such high expectations and the dating and the engagement are probably wonderful.

Then you get married and somewhere in the first couple, maybe six months, you're like, "Wow, he's not or she's not, I'm not as happy as I thought." So there's this sense of disappointment. It sounds like everything you just said applies right there. And this could happen at year 10 or 22 where you're really disappointed, you've lived long enough to go, "I don't think this is really ever going to change." So this disappointment is going to be a part of my life. It's never going to be what I thought. What do you do with that?

Ann Wilson: And what that disappointment can tend to do is go down the slope of hopelessness. Exactly. Or bitterness. I'm just thinking so many listeners are leaning in right now like, "I'm really disappointed with my marriage," or I talked to a guy last week who's got a son who's struggling through addiction and is two months sober right now.

But you can feel the ache in his soul because he's battled this, the dad with his son, for maybe a decade. So there's this loss of hopelessness like, "Is this one even going to stick?" So he's disappointed. There's shame, there's worry; you've got chapters on all those. You know, I think what you just said is what they need to do, the ADD really is a journey through any of that.

Alicia Michelle: It is. It's a way to not shy away from the reality of what those feelings are, because it's normal to feel shame and fear and, "Is this even going to work?" and "I don't know, I'm trying to cheer him on, but who knows?" It's normal to feel those things. And I think in marriage, when you have disappointments because you're right, we all struggle with that, there does come a point where God—and God's had to bring me to this point—of like, "So, you've committed to this person for the rest of your life. You love this person, and you do, you love them. They're wonderful. But then there's this little part right here."

Are you going to let this little part grow as a weed? Are you going to let this come and grow so that it is blocking the light of all these other beautiful parts of your relationship? Because guess what, Alicia, you have control over that. You get to decide if this disappointment, that is real and plausible, okay, sure, if that is going to rule your marriage. And God's had to sit me down a few times with that.

The reality of it is almost like you bring a glass of water into a table. The water's there, it's real, but you're going either let it sit there and become nasty and moldy over time, or you're going to have to release that water. So we have that individual choice. As painful, as excruciating as it can be to say, "God, I am disappointed. Show me how to release this, because I don't want to live in this place anymore. I don't want this to poison my marriage, this little thing that has grown."

And it's so interesting, I was looking recently at the statistics on women who divorce, that there's this trend now in divorce where women are doing the initiation of the divorce, 70%.

Dave Wilson: You mean 70% of divorces are initiated by women?

Alicia Michelle: Yes, and that it's usually at this point where it's just kind of like, "Everything's fine, everything's fine, snap." So what that tells us is there's been this build-up, this mucky water that's been growing for years and years and years, and suddenly it's just like, "I'm done," which makes sense because we all have that capacity.

But I wonder if there is an earlier choice—the choice can be made at any moment—but it's a lot easier when there's not all the other baggage you've let grow there. I wonder if we can start to say, "God, how do I deal with these real feelings so that they're not impacting my marriage or these other things in other ways?"

Dave Wilson: I think this is an interesting conversation too, not only about marriage, but now what this looks like with kids. I think you are the best. You're a great mom at helping our boys understand their emotions like, "Hey, so what are you feeling right now and why are you feeling that?"

And that's what we've been talking about all day is like acknowledging that, discerning that, and deciding what to do. Alicia Michelle's book is called "Emotional Confidence: 3 Simple Steps to Manage Emotions with Science and Scripture," and you can get it at FamilyLifeToday.com. Just click on the link in the show notes. We've got one more day with her, so come back tomorrow.

Luke Middendorf: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru ministry, celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.