FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I didn't even think about how to solve conflicts without arguing. So all we did was argue. And the thought began to run through my mind: I think I married the wrong person. We're too different.

One day, I finally said to God, "I've done everything I know to do, and she won't listen to me." As soon as I said that, a visual image of Jesus washing the feet of his disciples came to my mind. I heard God say to me, "That's the problem in your marriage. You do not have the attitude of Christ towards your wife."

Speaker 2

Okay, we got Gary Chapman back in the studio. It's always a good day.

Speaker 3

It's always a good day. And today we're going to talk about marriage. Who better to talk about marriage?

Speaker 2

Nobody better, right? In the world. I was going to say the country. In the world.

Speaker 3

I would agree.

Speaker 2

And we get the privilege, Gary, having you back.

And you know what? You won't believe this. Just a minute ago, I had a song come to my head.

What about you and your love languages? And they always come to my head when I'm in the restroom. I don't know why.

So here we go.

Speaker 3

Wait, I didn't know about this.

Speaker 2

I didn't know it either.

Speaker 3

You haven't even been practicing it.

Speaker 2

Usually I spend an evening or something. I spent five seconds.

Speaker 3

Has anyone written a song to you?

Speaker 1

There's a song.

Speaker 3

There's a song.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

There is probably a love language song. This will never be it. This is an old Three Dog Night melody.

But I was in the... Anyway, I'm not going to tell you where I was, but I had this thought: it was like four or five is a love language number that we need to know. You know that tune?

Speaker 1

I like it. I like it.

Speaker 2

Four is not as good as five. It's a love language that make you satisfied anyway. You ever heard that song? The real song is One is the loneliest known.

Speaker 3

Okay, wait, but Gary is saying there's an actual love language song. Who did it? Gary? Do you remember?

Speaker 1

I don't know. It's on. I think it's on my website.

Speaker 3

Is it?

Speaker 1

I haven't listened to it in a long time.

Speaker 2

Well, there's gonna be a new one. I'm gonna come up with one. A real one, not a.

Speaker 3

You might be embarrassed by it, Gary, but we'll think it's cool.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's. So we probably will get a little love language in this. But this new book, a simple guide for a better, quick, practical insights. Every couple needs to thrive By Gary.

Speaker 3

Chapman and John Hinckley.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And we'll have a copy of this in our show notes@familylifetoday.com but. Okay, what's this one you've got? I mean, how many books literally have you written?

Speaker 1

They tell me over 60.

Speaker 2

Really.

Speaker 1

I find it hard to believe. Wow. But when I go to my marriage conferences, which I do on Saturdays 12 times a year with moody publishers, they set them up all over the country.

Speaker 3

So you're still speaking once a month?

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, yeah, more than that. This is just Saturday conferences. But they bring all my books and I look at them and think, when did I write all these books?

Speaker 3

But they're so good. They're so practical. Even this one, it's just good. I think everybody is going to benefit from your wisdom.

Speaker 1

Well, this one is kind of a compilation of a lot of different things, different topics on marriage that I've dealt with in other places somewhat. But these are short chapters.

Speaker 3

I like that.

Speaker 1

You find out in today's world, people like short chapters. So they're short chapters. They're on specific things.

I think any married couple, whether they just got married or have been married a long time, will find this book to be very helpful. A lot of practical stuff, for sure, 100% agree.

Speaker 2

I mean, we read through it, studied it, and you're right, they're short and they're around. All different topics. But, I mean, I would give this to a premarit couple, for sure, a new lake couple, but a couple like us in our 40th year. 45th year.

Speaker 3

45 this month.

Speaker 2

This month.

Speaker 3

Gary, how many years have you been married?

Speaker 1

63. Yes. Now, Carolyn says that's impossible because she's only 49.

Speaker 3

Tell us about your marriage, because I'm always surprised. It seems like you should. You're probably perfect in every way but your beginning journey.

Some people have probably heard it, but many haven't. Take us back to what it was like when you guys were struggling, because you did struggle.

Speaker 1

We did. You know, no one ever told me the truth about falling in love.

Speaker 2

What's that?

Speaker 1

I was always told, if you've got the real thing, it'll last forever. Those feelings.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

And now we know. We've studied it. Average is two years. We come down off that high.

Speaker 3

So if you're listening and you're off that height, that's normal.

Speaker 1

That's normal. Absolutely. I think.

Speaker 2

I didn't know that. About six months.

Speaker 3

Ours was six months.

Speaker 1

I didn't know that. My wife and I dated two years before we got Married. So pretty soon after the honeymoon, I started coming down. And then we had disagreements. When I was in love, we never had a fight. Anything she wanted to do was fine with me.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

But I came down off that. And then we did nobody. I didn't even think about how do you solve conflicts without arguing? So all we did was argue. And I knew I was right and she knew she was right. And we tried to convince each other.

I remember one night it was pouring down rain outside, and we got into an argument. In the middle of the argument, my wife walked out the front door, slammed the door, and walked out in the rain. And I thought, this is bad. When a woman walks in the rain, it's bad. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3

What were you fighting about? Do you agree with.

Speaker 1

I don't even remember.

Speaker 3

You don't?

Speaker 1

I don't remember the topic, but it was almost everything. Because she didn't do things the way I thought they ought to be done. And I didn't do things the way she thought they ought to be done. So, you know.

But I think I'm glad God allowed us to go through that, even though I was really very frustrated, because two weeks after we got married, I enrolled in seminary to study to be a pastor. And here I am studying to be a pastor.

And now I've lost those feelings. And now we're arguing. And then I had negative feelings toward her. And the thought began to run through my mind. I think I married the wrong person. We're too different.

And then I was questioning God because I said to God, look, before I got married, I prayed, don't let me marry her if she's not the right one. And you let me do it. And I'm kind of getting upset with God.

Speaker 3

So now it's God's fault, too?

Speaker 1

Yeah, now it's God's fault. And obviously I was really so frustrated because I was thinking to myself, there is no way I can get up in front of people somewhere down the line and start preaching to people and be this miserable in my marriage. I mean, I can't do that.

One day I finally said to God, I don't know what else to do. I've done everything I know to do, and she won't listen to me. And as soon as I said that, there came to my mind a visual image of Jesus. Jesus on his knees, washing the feet of his disciples. And I heard God say to me, that's the problem in your marriage. You do not have the attitude of Christ towards your wife.

It hit me like a ton of bricks. Because I remember what Jesus said when he stood up, having washed their feet, he said to them, you call me teacher and Lord, and you are right, but in my kingdom, the leader serves. Now you go serve others the way I'm serving you. And I knew that was not my attitude. My attitude was, you know, if you just listen to me, we can have a good marriage. And she wouldn't listen to me.

And so I wept. I wept. I broke down and wept. And I said, God, forgive me. With all my study in theology, I'm missing the whole point. And I said, please give me the attitude of Christ. In retrospect, it's the greatest prayer I ever prayed about my marriage, because God changed my heart.

Speaker 3

Did it take a while for you to begin serving, for you to have a different heart? Toward Carolyn, it did.

Speaker 1

But that was a turning point, a huge turning point.

And there were three questions I started asking her after this that really turned my marriage around. They're simple questions.

The first question is, "Honey, what can I do to help you?"

The second question is, "How could I make your life easier?"

The third question is, "How could I be a better husband?"

Speaker 3

These are such good questions, Gary.

Speaker 2

Well, here's what I also know. She knows the answer to all three of those.

Speaker 1

She answers every wife, does them fluently. And when I started doing those things, it didn't turn around overnight, but within three months, she started asking me those three questions.

Speaker 3

Was she surprised when you started asking her those things?

Speaker 1

She had to be.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I would think so.

Speaker 1

But I bet you liked it what happened to this guy.

Speaker 3

But it changed her, too.

Speaker 1

It changed her, too, because she realized, you know, that it was going one way there for a while, and then she started turning around.

And really, I often say in my marriage conferences, I think this is what God intended, that we serve each other. God didn't create marriage to make us miserable. He created us for each other.

And if I have that attitude toward her and she has that attitude toward me, and we're trying to help each other, we are a team. That's what God had in mind. We're a team.

Speaker 3

And it goes against our sinful, selfish.

Speaker 2

I was going to say, that's not our bent. Our bent is, you serve me.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 2

Meet my needs. I have needs. Yeah.

Speaker 3

I made popcorn last night.

Speaker 2

She did. It was good.

Speaker 3

And Dave was outside on the lanai, out in the patio.

Speaker 2

I don't know. What are you gonna say about this? I remember.

Speaker 3

No, no, I made it. And I remember I was halfway out and I thought I should get him a drink, too, and I didn't want to. Gary, in my heart, I'm like, I just wanna go out there and I wanna sit down and wanna keep studying.

Speaker 2

But she asked me, I remember he said, you want me to get you a Coke or Coke Zero?

Speaker 3

What can I get you to drink?

Speaker 2

Coke Zero.

Speaker 3

And so we made.

Speaker 2

I never moved. I didn't serve you at all. I.

Speaker 3

But I'm just saying, our natural bent isn't to serve, but because Christ lives in us through the power of the Holy Spirit, we can go against our feelings and do the right thing and serve one another. It's out of obedience to Christ.

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

And it glorifies him. It's like an act of worship, even if our spouse doesn't deserve it.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. I had a woman ask me one time, can you love your husband if you hate him? I had to give some thought to that.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

But I'm convinced you can.

Speaker 3

What do you mean?

Speaker 1

Because in the Bible, love is not basically a feeling; it's an attitude.

An attitude of love is a choice. I choose to look out for your interests. I choose to do whatever I can to help you become the person you believe God wants you to be.

We choose our attitudes. We don't choose our emotions. I didn't choose my negative feelings toward my wife.

Speaker 3

Don't you want to write down everything he says? I want to write that down and remember it. That's so good, though.

Speaker 1

And so I said, yes. If you hate him, it means you've been hurt, et cetera. Those are natural feelings that you have. But you can say to God, "Lord, you know how I feel about my husband, and you know the way he's treated me, but I know you love him," and God does.

And the scriptures say, Romans, chapter five and verse five, "The love of God is poured into our hearts by the Holy Spirit." So I'm married to him. I'm opening my heart to you. You pour your love in, and I'll be your agent for loving him.

So we choose that, and we have all the help of God to do it once we make that choice.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I think sometimes what you're saying is we actually think she or he's our enemy.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And there is an enemy. And the problem, there is an enemy. It's not your spouse. We say this at the weekend, to remember at Family Life. I learned it as an engaged guy when we were going to the conference. I was engaged.

Speaker 3

From Dennis Rainey.

Speaker 2

From Dennis Rainey.

And yet there's times in the marriage I like, nope, she's my enemy. I know I have another enemy.

But right now she is saying and doing things and it's like, no, I have to fight that enemy and love this one who I don't like right now.

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 2

And God can give us power to do that.

Speaker 1

And remember, Jesus said, love your enemies.

Speaker 3

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 1

If your enemy is hungry, feed him. Yeah. I had a lady say to me in my office. She said, "Gary, my husband had an affair. He moved out and moved in with the lady. I was so hurt and angry and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera."

And I read that Romans 12 passage where God says, "Return good for evil. If your enemy's hungry, feed him," et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

And I said, and I heard God say in my mind, "I want you to bake him his favorite pie and take it over there and give it to him."

Speaker 2

I knew you were going to say something like that. I'm like, no, really?

Speaker 1

She said, "I said to God, if I baked a pie and went over there, I'd throw it in his face."

"Yeah, me too," she said.

The next morning I reflected on the same passage. She said, "It took God four mornings to get me willing to bake a pie."

I went over there and rang the doorbell on the apartment where they were. He came to the door.

Speaker 3

He's living with his girlfriend.

Speaker 1

He's living with his girlfriend and she.

Speaker 3

Bakes him a pie out of obedience.

Speaker 1

Yes. He comes to the door. He's behind the screen door. And she said, I just simply said to him, the other day, I was reading the scriptures and God impressed on me to bake you a pie and bring it to you. So I just want to give it to you.

He said, well, that's very kind of you. He reached out and took the pie, walked back in, closed the door in her face.

She said, but, Gary, I hate to think what would have happened because if I had not done that. That was the first step in our two-year process of reconciliation, really. See, it's hard to reject love from somebody that has done grace.

Speaker 3

It's receiving grace and you don't deserve it. It's like what Jesus did for us. It's the gospel.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I was shocked. We spoke this past weekend at a marriage event in a camp. So we're in a tent and we're complaining the whole time because it's muddy and rainy and there's 2,000 people under this big huge tent in this field in Ohio.

And I bet we heard eight to ten stories of affairs where they forgave each other. Usually, you hear that story, and it doesn't end well. But I was shocked at how many said, yep, we're good. We're in a better place than we've ever been.

And we went through a horrific thing. We had bad decisions and the power God gave them, the power to forgive. And they have a story, and they've.

Speaker 3

Had to put so much work into.

Speaker 1

It, and hard work. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3

But they ended up the ones that we talked to, like, we're better now than we were before.

Speaker 2

Well, you said earlier I got to ask you this, you know, you felt like you married the wrong person.

I think we all, at some point, feel that. At least we've heard it, you know, from so many couples.

What do you say when people feel that way? Because you felt it. I felt it.

Speaker 3

I felt it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Well, the first thing I say is, you know, I can understand that.

Yeah, I can understand that, because I remember when I felt that. I have people in my office who say to me, "I don't have any hope for our marriage. My husband won't come for counseling or my wife won't come for counseling. They won't read a book on marriage. They won't go to a marriage conference. They won't even talk about us."

So I don't know anything. I don't know what I can do.

Speaker 3

That probably does feel hopeless.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And I say to them, sometimes, even if both of them are there without hope, I say, I can understand how you can get there. I said, would you be willing to go on my hope for a while? Because I have hope for you. If you're willing to go on my hope, then I'll meet with you and we'll see what can happen, you know? And if both of them are there, of course, that's the best. If both of them are there and then we start working through some things and, you know, on down the road, then they're doing. They're doing well.

I've given this challenge, however, to when only one of them would be there after I got to know them and learned the situation. Would you be willing to do an experiment with me? If you and I can sit here and figure out your spouse's primary love language, would you be willing, with the help of God, to speak their love language at least once a week for six months? And let's see what happens. And if you are, then I'll meet with you every three weeks and just kind of walk with you through the journey over and over again.

Before the six months is over, I've seen that other person begin to melt, really, because they know they don't deserve it. And so I remember one lady, she said, "Dr. Chapman, my husband's a mechanic. Full-time job out behind the house. He has a shop where he works on cars every night after dinner, all day Saturdays, out there in the shop working on cars. He expects me to have all of his meals cooked, all of his clothes clean, everything. Nothing's coming back to me, and I feel so empty inside. I just don't think I can handle this."

Well, eventually I gave her this challenge. The first two or three weeks, he didn't say a word. But then he said one night after dinner, "What's going on with you?" She said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, you've been awfully kind to me lately. I don't know what's going on with you." I said, "What did you tell him?" She said, "I told him the truth. I said, 'I'm going over there to that church and I'm trying to take some counseling and learn how to be a better wife.' I knew something was going on." He said, slammed the door and went outside.

Next two or three weeks, he said, one night, and you're saying once a week. Once a week.

Speaker 3

That's not very much.

Speaker 1

No, just once a week. Just consistency.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And then he said to her, he said, well, I don't know what you're trying to do, but it's not going to work. She said, well, I told you what I'm trying to do.

And then a little later on, he said, what you're doing is not fair. You know, I don't deserve this. This is not fair. She said, look, I told you what I'm doing and this is the way we were four months into this.

And one night after dinner, he said to her, anything I could do to help you before I go out to the shop? She said, well, if you like. And she told him and he did it.

And after that, every week, at least once, he'd say, anything I do to help you before I got to the shop. So now he's speaking her language.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

See acts of service at the end of the six months. He said, "Gary, if anyone had ever told me I would have love feelings for him again, I would have said it's impossible." But she said, "I do. Really."

I never met her husband, but one of our members was over there at his shop one day, and he brought the topic up. He asked me, "Do you know Gary Chapman?" He said, "Yeah, he's on our staff. That guy is a miracle worker. My wife went over there. He changed my wife."

I said, "I am not a miracle worker. But love works miracles." The Bible says we love God because he first loved us. The same principle is true in human relationships. You love somebody that doesn't deserve to be loved because God loved us when we were sinners. We love them when they're sinners with the help of God.

It's not natural. It's not natural, but love tends to break down barriers.

Speaker 3

And because of your love language idea, she took the one specific way to love him, which would communicate to him.

You could feel overwhelmed, like there's so many different ways to love him that wouldn't have been speaking his language.

But because she spoke his language, it meant so much more.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2

I mean, when does it not work? Is there a place where man or wife's heart gets so hard it just doesn't break through?

Speaker 1

Yes, there is a place for tough love, but it comes. It's most effective if it comes after six months of tender love.

Speaker 3

Oh, so you've been doing this for six months?

Speaker 1

Six months. There's no change then? I think it's. There's a place to say, I don't know how you feel about us, but I feel like over the last six months, I have loved you in every way I know how. And it appears to me that you have no interest in our marriage. So I am going to move out and move home with my mother for a while. I'm not deserting you. If you're willing to go for counseling, I'll go with you. Or if you're willing to deal with a problem, if they have a problem, whatever it is, whether it's alcohol or anger or whatever, if you're willing to go for counseling to get to deal with that, I'll go with you. When. When the time comes.

But I love you too much to sit here and do nothing and let you continue in your pattern. And so you. You move out. But that person who's had tender love for six months is going to be far more motivated to get help because now he's going to lose something that he's been receiving.

Yeah, but see, normally we don't do that. Normally, we. We. We put up with their behavior. We get so aggravated, and we just say, I'm out of here. You know, I'm out of here. And we do the tough love thing. And the person that we're leaving in their mind, they're saying, good riddance. I'm glad you are leaving. I'm sick and tired of you too.

So that's why I challenge people. Try the biblical thing first. Try that loving your enemies first in a meaningful way over six months, and then do the tough love thing.

Speaker 3

I was mentoring a girl that was going through the same kind of thing. Her husband was just off, like, even cheating on her. And she said, "Ann, I don't want to get a divorce and I love him."

I said, "Well, this has happened over and over. He's not willing to change. So I think the best thing to do is kind of what you're saying, Gary: say to him, 'I'm choosing us. I want us. I want our family to work. But it appears like you don't. And so I'm going to go back home.' They live in another state part-time. I'm going to go there, and if you choose us, I'll be back. But until you can choose only me and our family, then I'll be waiting."

He was mad. He got worse for a while. But she continued to pursue God. She continued to just send him messages. She wasn't belligerent or mean.

It took probably six months of him being miserable, acting out, becoming worse. And then he came back and he said, "I want to choose us." It doesn't always work, but it can work.

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah. I'm guessing some may not know the five love languages.

Speaker 3

Yeah, let's do that.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

I mean, I can't imagine there's gotta be somebody on Mars.

Speaker 3

And then after that there's apology love language.

Speaker 2

Should we save the apology love language as the bonus?

Speaker 3

Well, I. Maybe we could do like two of them. Maybe that.

Speaker 2

And Jim said yes, I think that would make you want to become a monthly donor. Family life. You're going to want to know the apology. Are there five of those?

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, there's five of those.

Speaker 2

We're going to save that for later, but no. Yeah, walk us through. Have you done this? A few times. The five love.

Speaker 1

A few times. You know, you're right. Millions of people have heard the term love languages, but many people don't have the concept.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

You know that out of these five, each of us has a primary love language. And if you don't speak their primary love language, they won't feel loved, even though you're speaking some of the others.

Words of affirmation. These are in no particular order, words of affirmation. You look nice in that outfit. I appreciate what you did. Appreciate it. Thanks. Using words to build the person up.

You know the ancient proverb says, life and death is in the power of the tongue.

Speaker 2

Proverbs 18.

Speaker 1

Yep. 21, verse 21. So words of affirmation. Now, I did have a lady say to me, well, Dr. Chapman, how can I? I'd like to give him words of affirmation, but I can't think of anything good to say about the man. And I said, well, does he ever take a shower? She said, well, yes. I said, well, how often? She said, well, every day. I said, if I were you, I'd start there. I said, there are men who don't. There's always something you can find to say good about the worst with words of affirmation.

And then acts of service. Doing something for the person that you know they would like for you to do in a marriage, that would be such things as cooking meals, washing dishes, vacuuming floors, mowing grass, walking the dog, changing the baby's diaper. Just anything. Anything that you know would be meaningful to them. The old saying, actions speak louder than words. If this is their love language, actions will speak louder than words.

And then there's gifts. It's universal to give gifts. My academic background before I studied counseling and theology was cultural anthropology. I did an undergrad and a master's studying cultures and how they're organized. We've never discovered a culture where gift giving is not an expression of empathy, and the gifts don't have to be expensive. We've always said it's the thought that counts. I say to guys, you can get free flowers in the spring and summer. Just go out in your backyard and pick one. Do what your kids do. So gifts.

And then number four is quality time, giving them your undivided attention. I call it sit down and listen time. You know, we talk about a quiet time with God or sit down time with God. Well, why not have a sit down time with our spouse every day and just share some things that are going on in our lives?

Speaker 3

I think that undivided attention, it's not easy to do now with all of our devices and phones and. Yeah, so I like that.

Speaker 1

You're exactly right. And you don't have to always be sitting down. You can be taking a walk down the road or going out to eat.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

Assuming that you talk. Yeah, we've seen people in the restaurant that don't talk on their phones.

And the number five is physical touch in a marriage, which includes such things as holding hands, kissing, and embracing—the whole sexual part of marriage. An arm around the shoulder while driving down the road, putting your hand on their leg, or sitting around the house and playfully tripping them. I'm kidding on that one. Okay, don't trip your spouse.

So the basic idea, as I said earlier, is that each of us has a primary love language. One of those five speaks more deeply to us than the other four. Now, all of them are fine; we're not going to turn anyone away. But if we don't receive love in our primary language, we will not feel loved, even though the person may be speaking some of the other languages.

Speaker 3

Do we usually speak the language that we know the best? If my love language is words, do I generally give words?

Speaker 1

About 75% of the people, the one they want to receive is the one they most naturally give.

Speaker 3

Okay.

Speaker 1

About 25% of the people will give, will speak one of the other languages, but it's not what they want. And I attribute that to the fact that they were taught to speak that language when they were growing up. You know, if the dad told the son, always buy the woman gifts. Always buy the woman gifts. Well, then he buys her gifts. Not because he wants gifts, but because that's what he was taught to do. Most naturally, we speak our own life.

That's what I did for Carolyn before I came down off the high. It was early, a little while. I gave her positive words. I didn't know anything about love languages, but I just told her, I like to hear words. I gave her words. And one night she said to me, I told her often, I love you, honey. I'm so glad I married you. I just love you, love you, love you.

One night she said, you keep on saying, I love you. If you love me, why don't you help me? I said, what do you mean? She said, well, you don't ever offer to wash the dishes or vacuum the floors or clean the toilet. I mean, you don't offer to do anything. I didn't say this, but what I was thinking was, what are you talking about? My mother did those things. Whoa. We bring our history with us.

Speaker 3

Yeah, we do.

Speaker 1

Mama did it. You do it. But looking back on that now, she was telling me her love language, which is one way to figure out your spouse's love language.

What do they complain about? The complaint reveals the love language. If they say, "I just feel like we don't spend any time together anymore," they're telling you quality time is their language.

Speaker 2

You really got to listen.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I was with a woman the other day, and she was saying, "You should see my to-do list."

I thought about it and said, "And how's it doing?"

She goes, "It's been there forever."

To me, it's like, oh, acts of service is her love language, and she's super frustrated.

Speaker 2

But what about the wife? Or the husband could go either way that expects you to know. They don't tell you. They're just like, read my mind, watch my life. We should know.

Speaker 3

We can read his book. And you have ways to take the test if you don't know.

Speaker 1

Yeah. There is a free quiz at fivelovelanguages.com, and there's one for married couples, one for single adults, one for teenagers, and one for military couples. But, yeah, that's all at 5lovelanguages.com.

Here are three simple ways to discover another person's love language. One is to observe their behavior, which is what you mentioned. How do they typically express love to you and other people? That's a clue.

Then, consider what they request most often. For example, my teenage daughter, during those years, would often ask, "Dad, can we take a walk after dinner?" She wanted my time—just the two of us walking together and talking.

Finally, think about what they complain about most often. If you put those three observations together, you can pretty well figure out a person's primary love language.

Speaker 3

You've written books about your kids' love language. Yeah, I remember reading that.

And then I asked each of our sons, thinking they would all say the same thing, "How do you know that I love you?" They each said something different, which I felt like I was parenting them the same.

But that helped me to discover their love language. And that's really important to know as parents with our kids, too.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. That. That book, the Five Love Languages of Children, has helped so many parents, because I say to parents, the question is not do you love your children? The question is, do your children feel loved?

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

But if you're not learning, and I say to the parents, also, please don't hear me saying that you only speak a child's primary love language.

Speaker 3

That's good.

Speaker 1

No heavy doses of the primary, but sprinkle in the other four. We would like that child to learn how to receive love and later, how to give love in all five languages. That's the healthiest adult.

Speaker 3

Well, let me ask you this, Gary, because in your new book, you're talking about conflict resolution. Does love language play into that? Of even how you have conflict? Does that play into it at all?

Speaker 1

I think it may. If you each feel love for example, you're less likely to lose it and yell and scream at each other.

Speaker 3

You're more gracious to one another.

Speaker 1

Yeah. If you know that your spouse's language is words of affirmation and you have a conflict, you're less, I say less likely because you still can. Do you do what comes natural for you? If you're an arguer or yeller, well, then you're going to yell, you know, But I think it involves recognizing that you're married to a human and humans will not have the same thoughts and the same feelings on any topic.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So first of all, what we have to decide is to try to understand the other person's position.

Speaker 3

How do you do that?

Speaker 1

Well, I've said to people it helps, I think, if you structure the conversation when you have a conflict and say, honey, why don't you take five minutes and tell me your side and I'm going to try to understand you and then I'll have five minutes to tell my side. You can try to understand me.

Speaker 3

So you're not in the heat of the battle at this point.

Speaker 1

That's right.

Speaker 3

You're kind of waiting for the feelings to subside.

Speaker 1

Yeah. A couple has to have a plan for handling conflicts. If they don't have a plan, they're going to do what comes natural.

Speaker 3

Yelling.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. So I'd say. But if you both agree on this, first of all, each of you can call a timeout. If you're. You realize you're about to escalate, you can call a timeout. Just use the timeout sign. And that means I need a break. Okay. So let them take a break. They can walk around the block. My mother used to say, before you say anything to anybody when you're angry, count to 10. I think mother was on the right track. I'd suggest 100 or 1000. 10 is not long enough.

Speaker 2

You can take a time out overnight.

Speaker 1

You can. If it's late at night especially. But when you do come back, then let's take turns talking rather than. Because here's what we discovered. In a conflict situation, the average person will listen to the other person 17 seconds before they interrupt and give their idea.

Speaker 3

Really?

Speaker 1

Yeah. 17 seconds. That's not right. Da da da da da da da da da. Well, that's not right. Da da. Now we're back into an argument. But if you take turns, if this is your plan, take turns. And I'm going to be the listener when you're talking and I'm trying to understand where you're Coming from. Try to put yourself in their shoes and look at the world through their eyes, and you can ask questions to clarify, and they can clarify their statements. And then you can honestly say, it might take. It might take a few turns, but you can honestly say, eventually. You know, honey, now that I hear you, I can see where you're coming from. I can see how that makes sense now. You're not an enemy.

Speaker 3

Well, you've just de. Escalated everything.

Speaker 1

That's right. And they. They eventually can say the same thing to you. Okay, honey, now let's see your side. Now, how can we solve the problem? Now? You're not trying to win an argument now. You're trying to solve the problem. Because if you win. I've often said this. If you win an argument with your spouse, you know, you're arguing you. And they just say, okay, have it your way. They lost.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

It's no fun to live with a loser. Why would you create one?

Speaker 2

The relationship loses.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we're on the same team. Yeah, you won, they lost. No, they're on your team. You both lost.

Speaker 3

Gary, what if you have a spouse that's not willing to do that? Like, they just get defensive, you know?

Speaker 2

Not talking about me, are you?

Speaker 3

No, you're not, actually. No, you're not.

Speaker 2

There are times.

Speaker 3

There used to be that we would both get defensive.

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3

But instead of, you know, if we're at it, and if one of them would say, hey, let's just calm down and let me hear your side. Is there ever. Gosh, if you would. If you would have asked me that back in the day, I would have certainly talked about my side. But because you asked me, I think I would have been more careful with my words.

Speaker 1

Yeah, no, I think that's a good idea. You know, if you say, I really. I think I disagree with you, but I really want to understand your perspective. So why don't you explain it to me again? Whatever the topic, you explain it to me. I want to try to see it from your perspective. You take that approach. You're right. They will say it, and they will say it without yelling and screaming because you're asking them to share, you know, and you get that going both ways. But see, most couples don't have a plan.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

They just do what comes natural.

Speaker 3

And what emotions. They just go with where their emotions are going.

Speaker 1

They're led by their emotions.

Speaker 2

I mean, what do you do with the anger that rises up when you're really disagreeing or defensive? You do not see their side. Or if you do. And you understand it. You're like, you're wrong. You're just wrong. And the fact that you can't see that I'm feeling this. I'm getting. I'm shouting. I'm.

Speaker 3

I'm guessing you shouldn't say you're totally wrong.

Speaker 2

But, I mean, we talk about, you know, anger's plugged into something, all that kind of stuff. What do you do with that?

Speaker 1

Well, I think we first of all have to acknowledge that we're about to explode. I mean, if you want to be productive. Most couples aren't thinking about how to be productive in this situation. They're just doing what comes natural for them. And just both of you doing what comes natural, you destroy each other. You destroy the relationship. So you have to wake up one day. Sometimes it happens at a conference like you were talking about. Sometimes it happens in reading a book. You wake up and say, you know, we don't have to do this forever. We can think. Let's think our way through this, how to do something different here. But this is one of the biggest lessons. Couples either learn or don't learn. And couples that don't learn how to solve conflicts without arguing are going to be yelling and screaming at each other when they're 90 years old, and then.

Speaker 3

They'Re teaching their kids how to do that.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. And the kids grow up in that framework, and that's what they do.

Speaker 2

Yeah. I sat with a couple. I mean, everything you're saying, I think requires humility, might be one of the greatest character qualities that build a marriage. And this couple came in, and I'm not a counselor, but, you know, I. You know, I'm a marriage writer, speaker, so they think. So anyway, I sat with them and I asked them, you know, have you ever been to a therapist before? A counselor? Yeah. What did they say? We should get a divorce.

Speaker 1

Really?

Speaker 2

At a church?

Speaker 1

Yeah, at a church.

Speaker 2

Really?

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

And I'm telling you, an hour later, Gary, I was thinking the same thing. I was like, oh, my goodness. I. You know, I could see why this guy said that. There was pride against pride.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I'm not. I don't care what you think. You're wrong.

Speaker 1

I'm right.

Speaker 2

It was like. And there was no buckling.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I'm like, you guys have. I said, you have to decide. Do you want to be married?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Because right now, you are not willing to make any concessions. And there was just no humility. Is that at the heart of, you know, simple guide or better marriage is you gotta have you Gotta put away the pride, the sin nature. You gotta bury it.

Speaker 1

I don't think most people are thinking along those lines. But yes, I think the whole thing I mentioned earlier in terms of the attitude of Christ, you know, Philippians chapter two, he was God and he humbled himself and became a man. And when he got on level ground, he stepped down further to death on a cross. So have that attitude again. We don't have that attitude by nature. It's a matter of saying to God, lord, I'm not there. I don't have that attitude, but I want it. I want to have the attitude of Christ. This is why Christians have an advantage to non Christians in relationships. We have outside help from God. Anyone who says to God, I want the attitude of Christ toward my spouse, Lord, work in my heart. God will answer that prayer.

Speaker 2

He will. That's a prayer he'll answer.

Speaker 3

And in our 45 years, we've had the Holy Spirit convict us when that pride rises up. We want to go our own way, but the Holy Spirit just nudges us. And we can feel God's pressure of, don't say it, don't do it. Don't act like that. And that is the benefit of walking in Christ and even maintaining a healthy, good relationship with him.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Well, another aspect of that, and this relates to conflict, is forgiveness.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

How do we navigate that world? Because you're hurt deeply. And yet we're commanded by God. We've been forgiven. We forgive others. Excuse me, Ephesians 4. How do you get there?

Speaker 1

I think first of all, we have to understand what forgiveness is. A lot of fuzzy thinking on that. Forgiveness is not a feeling. There's three Hebrew words and four Greek words that are translated forgive or forgiveness in the New Testament. But the two key ideas are. One of them is to pardon the person. I'm not going to make you pay for this. I'm going to lift the penalty. I'm going to show mercy and not justice. And the other is to take away. The Bible says God removes our sins from us as far as the east is from the West. It's to take away the barrier that was created by what you did to hurt me. And that emotional barrier will sit there until there's an apology and forgiveness. But forgiveness says, I'm going to remove the barrier so that our relationship can go forward. Now, the forgiveness thing is the choice to do those two things. It's not a feeling because some people will say, well, I just don't feel like forgiving them. They've hurt me so deeply understand that you don't have to have positive feelings. You're making a choice. I think also it's important to know what forgiveness does not do. Forgiveness does not destroy the memory. I've heard people say, if you haven't forgotten, you haven't forgiven.

Speaker 3

That forgive and forget idea.

Speaker 1

Yeah. No, no. Everything that's ever happened is stored in our brain. Sometimes it seeps down to the subconscious mind, but it's still there. And the memory will come back to you. And forgiveness does not remove all the painful emotions. When the memory comes back, the emotions come back. You can feel angry again, you can feel hurt. You can feel many emotions. So what do you do if they've apologized and you've made the choice to forgive them and you remember it and the emotions come back, I think you take it to God and you say, lord, you know what I'm remembering and you know what I'm feeling again. But I thank you that I made the choice to forgive them. Now help me to do something good today, and you move out to do something good today. Don't be controlled by your emotions or by your memories.

Speaker 3

How do we do that? How are we not controlled by our emotions and our memories when some of them are very traumatic?

Speaker 1

Oh, yes. I think it's first of all, acknowledging, okay, I'm remembering it. Okay, I'm feeling this again.

Speaker 3

So it's like lament acknowledging the feeling.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. And God already knows. We're telling him, you know what I'm remembering, you know what I'm feeling again. But I don't want to be controlled by this. You can love them. Even with those feelings, hurt feelings, you can still reach out to speak their language or some other way, communicate love to them. The other big factor is forgiveness does not rebuild trust. How many times have they been in my office together working on rebuilding their marriage? Maybe the husband was unfaithful, or maybe it could have been the wife. But she will say, or he will say, you know, Dr. Chapman, I've forgiven him. And that's why we're here trying to work on our marriage. But to be honest with you, I don't trust him. And I say, welcome to the human race. Forgiveness does not restore trust. Forgiveness opens the door to the possibility that trust can be reborn. I said, we lose trust when the person is untrustworthy. And I would say to the husband, if he's a guilty party, I'd say, here's my suggestion. If you want her to trust you again, you say to her, my computer is yours anytime you want to look at it? My phone is yours?

Speaker 2

All the passwords, everything?

Speaker 1

Yes. And if I tell you I'm going over to George's house to help him work on his car? If you want to come over there and see if I'm there, it's fine.

Speaker 3

Or you can put track me on the GPS on your phone.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm through with deceit. I've hurt you enough. I don't want to hurt you anymore. You take that approach, she'll come to trust you again. It might be three months or six months or nine months, but she will come to trust you because you're being trustworthy.

Speaker 2

You earned it.

Speaker 3

And if a spouse won't do that, if they. And they say, like, no, now you're trying to control me, what would you say?

Speaker 1

I would just try to help them understand that you want to trust them again, but you have to have some evidence in order to trust them again. But I have forgiven you. I do want to work on our marriage. That's why we're going for counseling. And. And I want to trust you again.

Speaker 2

I mean, if a guy has had an affair or it could be a woman and says, no, I'm not going to let you see my phone. I'm not giving you the passwords. Is he serious?

Speaker 1

I would certainly question that. Yeah. I would certainly question that. Yeah. I don't know. We all know his heart, but his actions are showing that he's not open for her to have evidence to trust him again.

Speaker 3

I think our last question is Dave and I have a great relationship in terms of going deep. We know each other's fears, our hurts, the things that like, hard things to talk about. We'll go there. We call it a level five. And I noticed that you have five levels of communication in this book because it comes naturally to us. I just assume that most people would go to these deeper levels of intimacy in conversation, but they don't. Can you go through those? And I don't think a lot of people understand the levels that of where we can go in a relationship and then. Is that important?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think. I think many couples just have hallway talk.

Speaker 3

Me too.

Speaker 1

Did you sleep well last night, honey?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Slept well.

Speaker 3

It's cold out today.

Speaker 1

Yeah. You have a good day today, honey? Yeah. Had a good day. And that's the same thing you'd say walking down the hallway at work.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

You know, it's just hallway talk.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And then I don't remember exactly the titles that I use on the Five.

Speaker 2

But we've got cliche.

Speaker 1

Cliche. Yeah, yeah. And that's just, you know, again, very similar to that, but it's just. It's just light talk.

Speaker 3

How are you doing?

Speaker 1

Yeah, how you doing?

Speaker 3

And you don't want to really know.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there's intellectual. Maybe it's one of them intellectual talk where we're sharing our thoughts with each other. Yeah.

Speaker 2

And.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And our visions and dreams for the future.

Speaker 3

And then we get into opinions.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

And opinions. That's a little deeper.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And then there's emotions where we feel free to share our emotions and say, honey, I'll be honest with you. I'm feeling discouraged today. And here's what happened at work and da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Many couples never get there right to where they're sharing how they feel, not just in the marriage, but in other situations and things that are.

Speaker 3

Why do you think they don't go there?

Speaker 1

I don't know, except that some of us have the feeling, well, I shouldn't have those kind of feelings. You know, I shouldn't be discouraged or I shouldn't be whatever I'm feeling.

Speaker 3

And maybe it feels like a weakness.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think that's it. I think that's it. Yeah. And then there's what I call truth talk. And that's what we're really being open and honest with each other and just sharing life fully with each other and helping each other process life, you know, and that's where we all would like to be, or at least some people don't even have the vision of that, to know what that would really look like, where you just really share your heart with each other, and you're there and you're praying for each other and you're encouraging each other and you're speaking each other's love language. And when there are problems, you're sitting down and looking at them and processing them together.

Speaker 3

How have you and Carolyn gotten to that depth of conversation? Does it come naturally now you've been doing?

Speaker 1

It does now. After all these years. Yeah, well, I mean, it's been that way for a long time.

Speaker 2

Well, it took, what, 60 years?

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, it took 60 years. No, we've had a good marriage, of course, for a long, long time. And of course, I've learned in my counseling others. I've learned things that helped me in my marriage in those early years. I remember, man, when I would sit there and listen to people and I just shoot up a prayer. I say, God, I don't Have a clue what to tell these people. And God brings in my mind something that I would never have even thought about. God helps us in whatever ministry we have. He enables us to do that ministry. And we learn in the process.

Speaker 2

I know that I learned. No, I was gonna say early. I don't think I learned it early. I think it took 10 years, maybe 15, that when Ann and I go out on a date. And one of the things we learned at the family life we can remember as engaged couple is you should date. So we sort of built that in our rhythm even after having kids. But I learned she wants on that date to go to level five. She doesn't want one, two, or three. She wants to talk about not just me, mostly us.

Speaker 3

I want to know how he's doing inside. I want to know what he's feeling, and I want him to know me. And so when I'm asking, like, how are you doing? He goes, fine.

Speaker 2

I'm fine. But I realized she wasn't feeling loved by that. It was like I was avoiding it. I was like, can't we just have fun? Let's go to a movie. Let's laugh, and we'll do that, too. But there was something in her. It was like, I want to know you. I want us to be great.

Speaker 3

And, Gary, I will say this. What you had talked about earlier of knowing, like, what's behind that idea. Like, for Dave, he had never had anyone do that with him, ever. His dad was gone.

Speaker 2

Never saw it in my home.

Speaker 3

Parents were alcoholics. His little brother died. Who you'd have been best friends with. And all his siblings were 10, 12, and 14 years older. And you didn't go there with your friends?

Speaker 2

Oh, no. I was afraid.

Speaker 3

But for me to be able to understand, he's never done this. Give him some grace, you know?

Speaker 1

Yeah, right, Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Give me some grace.

Speaker 3

I am giving you grace.

Speaker 2

She has. But I had to also learn. And I tell men this. You know, for me, it was courageous to say things that were scary.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

It's like I had to muster up and say, God, help me to step somewhere I don't feel comfortable because it's so intimate. And you know what? She longs for it. It makes her feel loved. It doesn't matter what I feel. Here we go.

Speaker 3

I remember you saying, like, I felt like I wasn't good preaching this week, or, I feel like I'm really scared about our money. And we would have fights about money, and he would just be on me. But when he said, like, I'm feeling scared about our money. Now I've got a little more compassion. So those level five, getting into the deeper parts. I think it's so important, because God put us together as one, to know each other intimately, not just physically, but emotionally.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I love this. This book because it's a simple guide. You know, it's. It is. It's.

Speaker 3

The chapters are so little.

Speaker 2

It's practical insights every couple needs to thrive. There's the book. We got it in the show notes@familylifetoday.com. get one, get three. Okay, thanks.

Speaker 1

Very good. Good to be with you all.

Speaker 3

You too. Hey, thanks for watching. Watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that, like button, and we'd.

Speaker 2

Like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this.

Speaker 3

Word like and subscribe.

Speaker 2

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There he goes.