FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Okay. Let me ask you something.

Speaker 2

I'm a little scared. I don't know what you're gonna ask.

Speaker 1

Do you feel like you've ever sabotaged our marriage?

Speaker 2

Oh, my goodness. My first thought is I've sabotaged it countless times every year.

Speaker 1

Really?

Speaker 2

Oh. And things I've said or done. I mean, 42 now, 43 years.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I think I've sabotaged. I don't even have every couple of years. But I think you've sabotaged it more than I probably.

Speaker 1

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 2

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.

I honestly think, man, if I had done better in year one and year five and ten, we could be. But here's the thing. I also, when I say that out loud, feel like the grace of God has been so good.

Here we are sitting, and I look at you, and I love you more than I ever have.

Speaker 1

And the good news is we've learned the hard way in so many different ways that we can maybe help other people not sabotage their marriage the way we have.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So today we're gonna talk about five way to stop sabotaging your marriage. And we've got the guy to do it. Ted Lowe is back in the studio with us. We're so excited.

Speaker 1

Ted, you're here.

Speaker 3

Hey, guys. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2

And you're over there thinking, what in the world are we really going to talk about?

Speaker 3

No, I kind of love it. Like, watching you guys talk to each other like this, it's super refreshing. It's not like, what I experience on a regular basis. Well done.

Speaker 2

How many years you been doing marriage ministry?

Speaker 3

Since 2001.

Speaker 2

So you are the guy to tell us how to stop sabotaging our marriage.

Speaker 1

And we've interviewed you before on your book Called Us in Mind. So maybe you've heard some of this. But I think these are going to be really good.

Speaker 2

Yeah. One of the things you mentioned in *Us In Mind*, how changing your thoughts can change your marriage, is five intentional thoughts. So I'm guessing you would say, and I agree that these will. If you do these, you'll stop doing these, because, like, the first one, remember who I am.

I think we often do the opposite. We don't know who we are. And that just destroys a marriage. How does that destroy a marriage?

Speaker 3

Yeah. Like we talked about the last time I was with you guys, our thoughts, they're not our actions or attitudes. I know I sound repetitive, but our thoughts are not our actions or attitudes, but they lead to both. And what I found after doing this for a really long time, and didn't even really do the math on it until a couple of years ago, is most of us aren't thinking about what we're thinking about. We just trust our thoughts as if they're going to always lead us in the right direction and as if they're always true and as if they're always helpful, as if they're always kind.

And so the book kind of revolves around that. It revolves around, okay, how do we become more intentional with our thoughts? How do we boss our thoughts instead of our thoughts bossing us? And so the first one was to remember who I am. I think one of the things that's been the most powerful for me personally and ultimately for my marriage is remembering whose I am. I think we can complicate Jesus and God in so many ways, but just to go back constantly, that we are his child, that we are his.

I feel like there's been a few times I feel like God has whispered things to me, not audibly, but just on my heart. He says, you'll become a man in your world as you become a child of mine. And so, you know, kids are always looking for approval, looking for worth, looking for value. But I feel like when I remember who I am, I'm already a man here. But I just, you know, when you're his child and you lean back and you trust him to be him and you to be you, and he's way bigger than us, and that's really, really good news.

And he adores us, right? And we listen to critical thoughts more than him. I think it breaks his heart, the thought I've had before, too. It'd be like our kids coming home and telling us what a bully had said to them all day, and then looking at us and going, hey, you know, all the things you've told me my whole life, I believe the bully more than you. That would break our hearts. So I know it's got to break the heart of God when he says, oh, why don't they listen to how much I love them? And so just the simplicity of that is somebody going, oh, I am so loved, I can breathe.

Speaker 1

There was a girl that I worked with. She came to my house. She had tried to commit suicide three times. It was after her freshman year of college when she had an injury and could no longer play soccer. She couldn't perform at the level that she once did.

She sat down on my couch, and I asked her, "Who are you?" She replied, "I'm a soccer player." I said, "That's what you do, but who are you?" She responded, "I have no idea. If I can't do that anymore, I don't know who I am."

I shared the gospel with her because that's what gives us our worth—what Jesus did for us. A few weeks later, she gave her life to Jesus. We often think that when we do that, we are free and can live in that freedom. However, for years, she had been believing the lies in her head, and it takes practice to overcome that.

I went to a conference with her, and she was amazing. She was beautiful, smart, and funny, adding so much to every group she was with. But during the conference, I noticed that although she was physically present, her mind seemed to be elsewhere. I pulled her aside and asked, "Where are you?" She said, "I don't belong here. I'm not good enough to be with these people. They don't understand who I am and what I've done."

I felt like that was a reflection of what many people experience. I lifted her head and said, "Jesus knows who you are. He knows that you're here. He loves you. This is who you are: you're a daughter of the King. The Holy Spirit lives in you. The God who created the universe lives in you. We need the fullness of who you are. I need the fullness of who you are."

I love what you said, Ted. If we don't know that, we can become lost in ourselves.

Speaker 3

I didn't know this show had music right now.

Speaker 2

It just comes in out of nowhere.

Speaker 1

It just. It's kind of amazing, isn't it?

Speaker 3

I kind of. I'm not really sure what's happening, but I'm sort of loving it. It's exciting, isn't it? It is. Are you guys breaking in puppy snacks?

Speaker 2

Like, I don't think I could be.

Speaker 3

Any happier than I am at this.

Speaker 2

Everything's better with music behind it, right? No, I mean, this is a chorus we've all probably heard that came out years ago.

And, you know, at church, I'd play bass. I didn't usually sing, but when the singer would sing this lyric, I thought I would tear up because it's our identity.

It's what you're saying. You know what it is?

Speaker 4

I'm no longer a slave of you. I am a child of God.

Speaker 2

I mean, it's just simple phrase. And yet, you know, I don't know if you remember the bridge.

Speaker 4

I am surrounded.

Speaker 3

Look at that.

Speaker 4

By the arms of the Father. I am surrounded by songs of deliverance.

Speaker 2

I mean, you can go up in there. The reason I would tear up is like, something in my soul. That's who I am. That's who we are. And that when you bring into marriage, you're right. That's not gonna sabotage a marriage that's gonna build.

Speaker 3

Well, that song is based off the verse that chapter is based off of. The spirit I give you is not that of a slave that lives in fear.

Speaker 1

That's good.

Speaker 3

How great is that? The spirit capitalists. The Holy Spirit. It's brought about your adoption into sonship. And so we say, don't. You're safe. You're adopted.

Like, I'm doing all the dad stuff. I remember, I'd say to our kids when they were little, that's a big people problem. You don't have to worry about that. You go be a kid. That's a big people problem. I got this. Especially our daughter. She was anxious.

No, no. And I think sometimes. No, no, no, Ted, this is a God problem. This is not for you. You just go. You feel loved and live loved.

Speaker 1

That's good.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's good stuff. So that's this one.

Speaker 1

That's a good one. Because when we remember who we are, we bring the best of ourselves to the table with our kids in our marriage.

Speaker 2

And number two, if you want to sabotage your marriage or your family, see the worst, you say, see the best.

Speaker 3

Yeah. It's something that happy couples do. And I don't know if they do it because they learned it. I don't know if it's because their brains are naturally wired that way, but they see the best in their spouse.

But I do believe that we can all learn it and start to see it. Philippians 4:8 gives us a really great filter of thinking. Whatever's true, whatever's noble, whatever's pure, whatever's right, whatever's lovely, if anything is praiseworthy, anything, we gotta start there.

Is there anything? Because people will say to me, there's nothing.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah, that's what I hear, too.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah. Especially when they're. And they're fired up about it. No, no, that does not work. That works for everybody on the planet but me. And I get it. But again, verse starts with true. And you can deal with some really hard things when it's true. And then you know what you're dealing with, because you're starting with truth, not denial.

Okay, what is true about our situation, what's true about them? But just see the best. What I'll say to couples is, let what you love about your spouse block the view of what you don't. Like, start there. Like, what is you? And if you want to come back to those things, great. But what do you love about them? Because you love something about them at some point.

So you watch a couple, they're really frustrated sitting across from me, and when I can't get anywhere with them, I say, so, wow, you guys, boy, this is tough. Like, what? How'd you get together? Their body language will change, the way they start focusing. And they just. They did see the best in each other.

And the way they treated each other was so great. We get so. You know, life is hard. It gets going fast, and we stop seeing the things. We start going. We're just thinking our spouse becomes, you know, a hindrance to getting away, of getting the things we gotta get done. Done.

Speaker 1

And we start comparing our life compared to their life, thinking that we are doing so much more.

Speaker 3

100%. The number one time couples are fighting is when they reconnect at the end of the day. And I think part of that is they come in and they compare.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Oh, my day. Oh, my day. Oh, you think your day was tough? You know, I worked for an organization for a while. I would actually go in and speak a couple of times a year. It was an organization that worked with couples who had children on the autism spectrum. They would come in, and I would watch, and I would see some of them. All the things they were dealing with actually drew them together, while for others, it had totally pushed them apart. I think the divorce rate is pretty staggering.

I had done this retreat about 10 times, and I'm driving home, pondering the question: what is the difference between these two couples? What is the difference when it's pulling them together, where they're all sitting on, like, this sectional couch, and then there are others who couldn't even get close enough to each other? Some wanted to sit in the other room. It hit me that it really comes down to a mindset when they're reentering the home. They would fight, and they had pretty similar struggles.

It would be like, "Hey, I’m going to honor everything you've done today. You've been home, you've been with our kid all day. You've been researching all the treatments and therapies." And then the other one would say, "Hey, I'm going to honor the fact that you are out trying to make the finances work to make that happen, because insurance is not great in this regard." So it was like, "I'm going to honor what you're doing instead of comparing. I'm going to carry each other's burdens."

There’s this one lady who was such a great example of this. She said that when her two kids, both on the spectrum, were home, their days were really, really tough. She would hear the garage door open, and the kids would race to dad and wrestle with him. She thought, "I couldn't get a hug out of him; here he's been gone all day, and they want to wrestle with him." This made her so angry. She said she was mad at all three of them. And then she said one day, she...

Speaker 2

Said, you know what?

Speaker 3

I'm going to join in. And she said, she just ran and just dove on top of them, and she became a part of it. But it was just a mindset shift. It was something that was hurting her, and I could. It's totally understandable.

Speaker 1

Sure.

Speaker 3

I mean, of course that would break your heart. Of course it would. Of course. It's not logical. It doesn't make any sense. But she changed her mindset, and that was the difference. It was a mindset shift to see the best in them.

Because usually when we'll pull back, especially if somebody's listening right now, hopefully they're not in the middle of a fight, so their brains are kind of cool and calm. You can go. Okay. Let me just consider that for a minute. What do I love about them?

Speaker 1

Yeah, put in your phone. Like, I'd put it in the notes and then even send it to you. Like, hey, thanks for these things.

Speaker 2

Yeah, why don't you do that?

Speaker 1

I'm going to. Gonna do it tomorrow.

Speaker 2

I need to do that.

Speaker 3

Tomorrow's always a new day.

Speaker 2

And the truth is, like you said, it's intentional. Because if you don't do it intentionally, you'll default to the negative. You'll see the worst.

I mean, when Ann and I were dating and engaged, she could list all my great qualities. "He's this, this, this."

Six months later, she yells at me, "Marrying you is the biggest mistake of my life," she said.

Speaker 1

She said that there's not one thing I even like about it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, she said that.

Speaker 1

I love that.

Speaker 2

All the negative. And it was all there.

And so to flip that, because I think we default to the negative. We drive by a car wrecking. We all want to watch it rather than.

It's the same thing in our marriages. We want to see the worst rather than saying what you just said. No, I want to see.

Default to. I want to see the positive. It's there, but I have to choose it.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Okay, we need to move because we've got three more to go.

Speaker 2

Number three intentional thought to build your marriage is choose empathy. I guess to sabotage it is stop choosing what negativity.

Speaker 3

I think it's when you anger. Try to fix it. Fix them.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Because a lot of times we try to fix our spouse's emotions because we don't like their emotions or they're inconvenient, going, "Oh, here we go again." Or we don't like their emotions; it just doesn't make any sense to us. When we see someone being emotional, they’re not usually being rational or logical. They can be making exaggerated statements about things, and we want to fix that. Both men and women do it, but guys are more classic about it, often thinking, "Let me just fix this."

My wife told me one time, after a series of these situations not going well and me not being empathetic, "I don't want you to fix this. I want you to feel this." It’s so much easier just to feel it—just to sit there and look at her with a genuine expression on my face that mimics, not mocks, her feelings. I can just say, "I'm so sorry. This seems hard." She does the same for me, saying things like, "That's understandable. If I were you, I would feel the same way." Or simply, "God, I'm so sorry. That sounds terrible. That sounds so tough."

For instance, she used to go away with her girlfriends once a year; they still do. The four of them will go on a trip together, and they’ve been doing it for years. When she comes back, she talks about how they share experiences, and I often ask, "What did they say about it?" She replies, "Nothing." I used to wonder why they didn’t talk about it. But she loves that trip because they are so empathetic and don’t try to fix each other.

So, yeah, don’t try to fix it. This applies to both men and women. They appreciate the good stuff. Don’t try to fix that. They love something that you might not like. For example, during the holidays, you might have one spouse who loves to decorate and get everything ready, and I can tell immediately by the presents and the decorations.

Speaker 2

Too many presents. Too many presents doesn't stay within budget.

Speaker 3

And then you got the Grinch.

Speaker 2

Am I supposed to feel that or fix that?

Speaker 3

Well, I don't know. I'm not gonna go that deep with it.

But it is the thing of. There's typically one that loves all that, and the other one's like, are you gotta be kidding me again?

Why? I mean, why do we need multiple trees? Our house has multiple trees where you have to. I don't get it.

Speaker 2

I get it.

Speaker 3

Until Jesus takes me home. And then I'm gonna have some questions. But it makes her so happy.

Speaker 1

We've heard it said. How do they say that?

Speaker 2

Meet emotion with emotion and meet logic with logic. So if your spouse comes to you with an emotional issue, feel it, empathize it, don't fix so good she comes to you with a logical issue. And it might be a time to say, okay, let's talk. Right?

Speaker 3

I mean, just. I would say if you're giving homework for people, just say, that's understandable about three or four times this week and watch the look on their face.

Speaker 2

That's understandable.

Speaker 3

That's understandable.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I like that.

Speaker 3

Sincere.

Speaker 2

You're listening to Family Life Today. I'm Dave Wilson, and before we continue our conversation, let me just say this.

At Family Life, we really believe strong families can change the world. And when you become a Family Life partner, you help make that happen.

Speaker 1

And I don't know if you realize this, but your monthly gift helps us equip marriages and families with biblical tools that they can count on.

Speaker 2

Now, that's a pretty good deal. And we also want to send you exclusive updates, behind the scenes access, and an invitation to our private partner community, which is pretty cool. So join us in. Let's reach families and marriages together.

Speaker 1

And you can go to familylifetoday.com and click the donate button to join today. What's number four, guys?

Speaker 2

Number four, the way to sabotage your marriage would be react. The way to save your marriage is pause and respond. Is that a good way to say it?

Speaker 3

Well, and this is one of the things I land on in the research, and I thought, oh, this is why, me included. People who want to be great spouses find themselves saying and doing again that thing they swore they'd never say and do again or react in that way that, in their more logical moments, they'd go, I don't want to react that way. People can. You'll respond in a way, and they're so bewildered afterwards, thinking, I can't believe that I've done that again.

The research is really clear. When your spouse triggers you, it activates the same part of your brain called the amygdala that, if you were to accidentally put your hand on a hot stove, would make you immediately jerk it away. If you were to step into the street for just a second and hear something coming, you're going to jerk back. There’s no thinking about it; it’s purely reacting. At the same time, your frontal lobe is going a little bit out to lunch, which is where all your logic resides.

So it's great that the amygdala is there; we better be glad we have it because it does so many things when it comes to marriage. However, the amygdala is too efficient. You react, and people react in different ways, but you forget what you want for your marriage. If you're a reactor, we've all heard of fight, flight, or freeze. You know, if you're triggered, you step toward the tension.

Speaker 1

Oh, this is me. You wanna go.

Speaker 3

Oh. And if you're married to somebody, you wanna go, they go, hey, I need a minute. Oh, no. We're taking care of this right now. I have no logic.

Speaker 1

Don't avoid this.

Speaker 3

Yeah, you're avoiding. We're gonna air this out, and we're gonna air it out now.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

So what I love about what I've always done is scripture and science are not in conflict with each other at all. They just illuminate each other. Even the neuroscience coming up. So way long before I get geeked out on neuroscience, scripture was very clear, like, okay, so what do you do that your brain goes out to lunch and you're reacting? James 1:19-20 states, "You need to be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become." Look at that word: become angry.

For me, I'd say I had ADHD; I longed for it. It's cool to have it. We've been sharing stories about losing things, and that's part of it. I think for us, impulse control is a thing of ADHD. I'm not teasing about that. I know people tease about it. No, clinically diagnosed, you are this, Ted, if there's impulse. If I can learn this, and I'm not perfect by any means, anybody can.

So if you can start getting into the rhythm of when you get triggered, just talk at first. Some people are listening and going, "Oh, I don't talk. I don't talk for six weeks." I'm not talking about that passive-aggressive behavior. I'm talking about something else. I shouldn't have called somebody passive-aggressive; that's not kind. Okay, I'm talking about that. I'll call you a stuffer, someone who has files that you'll pull out later.

But for most of us, we need to take a deep breath, pause, and let our frontal lobe—the logical part of our brain—catch back up. This is the part of our brain that remembers what we want for our marriage, that remembers we don't want to react poorly, and most importantly, remembers who we are. Remember, this person in front of us is a child of God. Take a breath and say, "I'm going to respond versus react." I say the space between being triggered and reactions is where relationships are built or broken.

Speaker 1

Oh, that's good.

Speaker 3

It's right there in that space that we've got time. So I think for most of us, when we look back on those times where we regret turned into these nasty arguments, it is because in that triggered moment, we said something we should not have said.

And my wife told me one time, she goes, when you're angry, you find your words. When I'm angry, I lose them. And that's a gift I wish I could return.

But what I've learned is I'll just pause and I'll take a breath. And don't say anything with anything. Not with your body language, your face. I mean, you know, 80% of communication is non-verbal, right? If not more.

So just to take a breath and give it a second to remember how you want to be and how you want to respond. If you just start to listen, be slow to speak, and don't become the spouse you don't want to become.

Speaker 1

That's simple and yet hard. Something that we just need to start practicing. I need that one.

Speaker 2

All right, last one.

Speaker 3

All right.

Speaker 2

Love first. That's how you build a marriage. You sabotage by.

Speaker 3

I think you sabotage by scanning the relationship for what's fair and whose turn it is. You know, this is like. Like, you know, submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Everybody goes straight to the love and respect verses, which are great. Back up a few verses. Submit to one another, you know, submit to. In other words, I'm going to put your needs ahead of my own in this moment. In other words, I'm going to go first. I'm not going to try to figure out whose turn it is. I'm not going to try to determine who's fair. I'm just going to go ahead and love first.

And it really makes sense from a spiritual perspective to say, you know, what do we do with the ultimate act of submission is when Jesus looks at Abba and says, if there's any other way, but if not my will, but your will. It was the ultimate act of submission that demands a response. And when you're married, it's these constant little reminders of if he can do that, then I can pick up my daughter when it's not my daughter to pick up my daughter. If he can do that, I can be kind when I don't feel like being kind, if he can do that.

And so it's this thing of I'm going to submit, I'm just going to love first. And people say, oh, I'm afraid I'll get taken advantage of. You might. But let me ask you something. When somebody loves you that way, is your knee-jerk reaction to take advantage of them or to see how you can leverage this to your benefit? Are you drawn to do the same?

And there's no promises. You know, I can't make promises your spouse is not going to keep. But I don't think there's anything that could draw your spouse closer to you than when you just go ahead and say, I'm just going to go and do this. I'm just going to love this verse. And I ask on social media, what's one way that your spouse loves you first? It apparently has a lot to do with coffee and dishwashers. I don't know what that is about, but it is about coffee and dishwashers for some reason.

Speaker 1

These have been so good.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I can guarantee, I'm making a guarantee. You do these five, you will build a marriage.

Speaker 1

Ted Lowe has a book called Us in How Changing youg Thoughts Can Change youe Marriage.

Speaker 2

And you can find it by clicking the link in the show notes at Family Life Today.

We also wanted to let you know about a free guide we want to give you. It's filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real life couples who've been where you are.

You can grab your copy today at familylife.com.

Speaker 1

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Speaker 2

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