FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

When I was just, like, courting her, I used a diamond illustration with her, and I was telling her that I found a diamond, and she held onto that.

And later in our marriage, she told me, "I don't feel like I'm that diamond anymore. You used to."

"Really? I can tell. The way you looked at me, the way you desired me, the way you took care of me. You were gentle with me. I was a diamond at one point, and I don't feel like I'm a diamond anymore."

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us@familylife today.com. this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 2

All right. No women in this. In the studio. Just us men talking about how to love our wives. We got recap and Ike back for day three, and we're going to dig into some good stuff. So let's go.

Do you think husbands and wives who are struggling run away from that kind of community? They're afraid of it. They don't want somebody to get in there and see how well they react.

Speaker 1

Darkness hates the light.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4

That lack of community, not wanting any expo. I think that's normally led by dudes.

Speaker 1

Because usually women will accept it in a heartbeat. They desire it.

Speaker 4

They want it because they so want to submit to their husbands. Because they're usually godly women. They sit quietly hoping that a dude from the outside will come and grab hold of their husband and begin to lead him and disciple him.

Please come invade our relationship. Cause we know we need it. And it's the dude who's like, almost like, I got it. I got this. Like, I got this.

And it's super, super, super dangerous. Yeah.

Speaker 1

It's really stubborn. It's a hard heart. And I think we all gotta deal with that.

Speaker 4

Without a doubt.

Speaker 1

I remember our first big fight in our very first year of marriage. And she was suggesting that we talk to you.

Speaker 4

And.

Speaker 1

And I didn't want that at all. Not even close.

Speaker 4

But we did.

Speaker 1

You called me out, and that changed everything for me. It humbles you, but it's a meekness. It actually strengthens you.

Speaker 4

Come on, man.

Speaker 1

It just makes everything better. And your wife feels much more loved.

Speaker 2

Yes. And she feels safe. She feels safe because she's got a man that's humble enough to receive.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

Yeah. I think that's a definition of a godly man: the willingness and humility to receive correction. I remember there's a guy playing in the NFL right now that I ended up in a relationship with as a mentor, and he was making some bad decisions. I can't mention his name, but I remember telling Ann one night, "I'm calling him and I'm letting him have it. He trusts me. He's asked me for it. I'm going to let him have it."

And, man, she heard me downstairs. She goes, "Whoa, you did not hold back," and you know, saying things. I remember I looked at Ann and said, "Well, we'll see if he does what?" I said, "He will save his life."

The next day, I'm playing golf with some buddies, and I don't talk about any of this to anybody. They don't even know this. This guy's really well known. Then, some guy was playing golf, and he looks at the phone and goes, "Hey, so and so just got off all of social media."

Speaker 4

That's literally one of the things I said, wow.

Speaker 2

I said, dude, you gotta get off this.

Speaker 4

Wow.

Speaker 2

And I'm thinking, okay, he has a chance. And that guy is thriving today, not just as an NFL player, but in his marriage and as a dad. It was one of those moments where, you know, as a man, our wives are going to follow us when they see us do that, because we're submitting to the Father, we're submitting to another brother.

I remember one time, I was sitting beside my best friend at his high school daughter's basketball game. Dude, this guy played college football, Rob; he's a great guy. He was yelling at these refs to the point that the ref kept looking at him like, "This dude is a jerk." And I'm sitting beside him like, "Dude."

Finally, after the game was over, we walked out into the lobby. I said, "Let me tell you something, dude, you're not gonna like this. You were absolutely inappropriate." I continued, "To be a man of God and treat another person like that, your daughter was embarrassed." He looked at me like, "What?" I said, "I'm just telling you, dude, you need to check yourself. That was embarrassing. I was embarrassed to sit beside you." I mean, I was like, should I say this?

He called me about two hours later and said, "Thank you, man. You were right. I didn't realize. I got way too caught up. I needed a brother to tell me that." And I'm watching his wife; she's like, "I'll follow you anywhere."

Speaker 4

Not me, him.

Speaker 2

Because he's willing to receive correction. And we think wives submit to your husband. It's like, if we're not submitting—not that they have the license not to—but it's a lot harder to do that.

Let me ask you this: When have you failed at this? Loving, leading, cherishing, nourishing. I'll lead with this, and then I want to hear your story. Our listeners have heard this, so I won't go into all the details, but there was a night 20 some years ago. We've been married 45 years now, so it was somewhere when we had kids in the home.

I came home after a Sunday night weekend, which for me at that time was crazy. Preaching twice on Saturday, then doing Lion's Chapel Saturday night, then preaching three times, then going to the game, being on the sideline, and finally coming home. I was exhausted and crawling into bed, just drained and not wanting to talk.

As I lay my head on the pillow, Anne says, and I don't think you guys have heard this, but our listeners, again, have heard this because it's in our book, and I think it's in her last book. She probably talked about this, but she literally says, almost under her breath, "Man, I wish the guy that led our church lived here."

Speaker 4

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2

And again, I'm laying there, I'm like, I'm not even sure what I heard her say. What did you just say?

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And she just says something to the effect of, man, I watched you this morning at church, preaching and praying and casting vision. You're on fire. And you lead with this passion. She goes, you don't bring any of that home.

And I wish I could tell you guys, I just said, you know, I needed to hear that. I jumped out of bed pretty loudly. I said, let me tell you something. I know the husbands in this church. You got the best church right here. And you don't even appreciate it. I was just like, you gotta be kidding me. And that's how it ended. Went to bed, didn't talk, woke up.

Next day, I'm in my little home office and I'm sitting there and I go, God, were you speaking to me last night through Ann? And I felt like he said, yep. And what I realized is she was right. I lead strong in the ministry. It's like your job. I bring it. I come home, I'm tired. I'm almost like, come on, you got this right? You'll pray with the boys, you'll put them to bed. You know, come on, this is a place I can rest.

And I felt like God said, the most important people in your life that will be loved and led by you are named Ann, C.J., Austin, and Cody. You're doing that for thousands of people that you don't even know their names. And I've called you to do that. These are your disciples.

And I remember getting on my knees and saying, okay, God. It was a step up moment.

Speaker 1

Like, I can do this.

Speaker 2

Like, when I drive in my driveway, I need to shift gears and say, okay, I know I'm tired, but it doesn't matter. I am called to love and nourish and cherish and lead.

Her and the boys, let's go.

How have you failed in any areas, my God, where you had to have a Jesus moment?

Speaker 4

I could tell my life. Changing marriage, changing everything. Changing story for me was, this is probably, like I said, that third or fourth year of marriage. And I remember because I'm used to using words. This is before, by the way. I was like, even like a preacher, like that. But like, I don't know, like, maybe being so quiet helped me with words or whatever, but so I can always out argue my wife, who's more quiet. Insanely brilliant, by the way.

And that's the other thing about our wives. They not like, this isn't weakness. This is meekness. This is strength that doesn't have to be shown off. And that really matters, by the way. But a lot of times she'll just let me have the win for the argument, like, just for the sake of arguing. And one day she challenged me on something. I can't even remember what it was. I out argued her again.

One, I was walking outside. This is when we were in Philly, and I was walking down my sidewalk. And it was literally, I don't know another way to say it. It's like God stopped me on that sidewalk. I'm sure somebody was watching it. Like, yo, this is weird. Why did he just stop? Literally, physically, like, I was walking down the sidewalk and I stopped. And I can't explain this, but it was super clear in my soul, you're arguing your way out of my conviction.

I walk back inside, I apologize, and I say, I'm not gonna say a word. I need to understand what you're saying to me. And for the rest of our marriage, that has been a thing of like, my wife's not a talker, so sometimes she'll give a little space in conversation. Like when all four of us are together, she's the quietest one. And so I'll literally have to be like, you were saying something. Like, I have to draw it out. Like, draw it out. Because otherwise she was just like, okay, y'all got it.

But yet a lot of times it'll be what she says that'll shift the whole meeting. Seriously. But you're not gonna get a lot of that from her unless you draw it out. And so I literally have to do that so often. But when I say, up until that point in our marriage, I would argue my way with the Bible, by the way. Yeah, that's the danger, man. With the Bible out of conviction. Like, she said it in the worst way. And so I beat her just on wordsmithing.

I argued my way out of a lot of conviction. And that day, I don't remember what she even was challenging me on. I remember the Lord arresting me on that sidewalk. And for the rest of my life, not only for me, but for other brothers that I've been able to lead. Like, I can tell when guys have the gift of gab and it's like, yo, be careful of that because you could do the same thing I did for years. You're going to be able to out argue your wife and you're gonna miss a lot of what the Lord wants to transform in you.

Speaker 2

She shut down her spirit.

Speaker 4

Yep, yep. And now she doesn't even want to give that anymore. And that's a. Oof. That's a haunting place to be, man. And so I praise the living God that that's been able to be something changed.

But when I say that, that is detrimental. And I still got the tendency, like, seriously have that tendency. Like, I can see it riling up. Like I'm so mad at the conviction. Let me figure a way to out argue you.

And in those moments, like, it's only the spirit of God that can restrain me. So that's my major in some ways.

Speaker 2

That'S living with her in an understanding way. You understand how she's wired and you know, and you're, you're saying my role is I got to bring that out of her. And that means shut up sometimes.

Speaker 4

But you know how hard it is to bring out of somebody what's hurting you. Like hurting you to help you and make you hold it. But it still hurt like it's a stinger. Yeah, that's the toughest. And it's been the most transformative, without a doubt.

Speaker 2

How about you, Ike anything?

Speaker 1

Very, very similar. One thing that came to mind was, I think it was like kind of off the cuff. She just said one day, like, I feel like I gotta. To come to you. I have to have my argument tight or I gotta have all my ducks in order to come to you to talk about something. And that just crushed me. Cause up until that point I thought I was doing the opposite. And that just really, really crushed me. To this day that just rings in my mind.

So I always want to create the space for her to like, no, bring whatever and say it however you need to. You don't need to sound like you an expert or whatever, just say what you gotta say. And you know, my wife is good at saying what she gotta say, but that was pivotal.

There was another time though when I was just like courting her. I used a diamond illustration with her and I was telling her that I found a diamond and she held onto that. And later in our marriage she told me, I don't feel like I'm that diamond anymore. You used to really, I can tell the way you looked at me, the way you desired me, the way you took care of me. You were gentle with me. I was a diamond at one point and I don't feel like I'm a diamond anymore. And that was, that was really tough.

Speaker 4

For me to hear.

Speaker 1

That was tough.

Speaker 2

I mean, did you change?

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, I changed. But I think that's the, that's what I'm trying to articulate when I say that struggle between leadership and love. Because in my mind, the way. And I know that it's not necessarily the correct the way I'm defining it in my heart, but when I think about leadership in my natural kind of way, I really am kind of heavy handed.

And so I really a lot of times overcorrect and try to be really gentle with my wife. When it's times like this where it's like, yeah, I do need to be gentle; she is that diamond. But somehow I go past, you know, that and it just gets messed up. What Paul talks about when saying the difficulty in trying to please God or please your wife. A lot of times I can fall into pleasing my wife rather than trying to please God.

So it's a slippery slope with me and my personality. But the beautiful thing about my wife is she's patient with me and I think she understands the struggle that I have. She knows that I'm heavy handed and sometimes she'll just come straight out and tell me, I need you to be hard on me with this.

So I got a wonderful wife who wants to submit to my leadership, wants to follow me, and has a pretty good understanding of that struggle that I have. She helps me in leading her.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I know that, you know, when you say that she doesn't feel like the diamond anymore, I think I'm going to make a generalization. Hopefully, it's wrong. The majority of wives don't feel like the diamond anymore. And I know we feel the same thing on our side.

Yeah, well, she doesn't respect me, you know, but I don't see a lot of wives just blooming, as we said at the beginning, in their church. Christian marriages—those are the ones I'm looking at. And again, I can't judge. But, you know, if you ask the average wife, "Man, do I feel loved as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her?" I don't think so. My husband's pretty selfish.

And I think the sad thing is, I think Ann would say that for many years of our marriage, and that's on me. You know, I want her to submit, and I'm not willing to submit to the Father or love her in a way that brings out the beauty of who she is. You get lazy. You lose your first love. You get apathetic. You don't date, you don't talk, you don't live. I mean, I'm saying my marriage right there, you know.

And I want her, man, 45 years in, to be blooming like, "The greatest joy of my life is being married to this guy because he sees me and appreciates me." You're a diamond. And I'm hoping men are listening, going, "Oh, man, what would my wife say?" That'd be a great assignment. Say, "Does your wife feel like a precious jewel?" By the way, you love her, because if she does, submission is not going.

Speaker 4

To be hard, right? Nope.

Speaker 2

She'll be running to say, I'll submit because I know you're following Jesus and you're loving me. That's easy.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

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Speaker 3

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Speaker 2

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Speaker 3

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Speaker 2

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Any last words? Like, if you had a husband saying, okay, how do I love my wife like Clarice does at church, is there anything you haven't said?

Speaker 4

Yeah, I think the stuff I reiterate is, like, I do think wives feel more safety and community. Don't think you can love by yourself. You need other men who can challenge the way you're loving, because you might even be thinking you're loving, but that might just be a product of your environment. And maybe your father, you know, was disconnected emotionally, so you're just passing that on. But that's the only thing you know. Well, you need a guy who has learned to be emotionally connected to speaking to that. And I think there's safety in that.

And the other thing I would say is, like, I think that there are wives who so desire this. Like, I'm sure who are listening right now, like, I want to feel like that diamond, but I don't. And I think there's husbands who want their wife to feel like that, but, you know, for a myriad of reasons, like, they're not there yet. Both the husband and the wife have a wonderful savior to look to, that wives are called to submit to their own husbands as unto the Lord. Exactly. Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church.

And in both of those things, the wives are submitting ultimately to a savior and a husband who didn't just say words, but gave his life. And the husband is trying to model the savior who died not only for the wife, but also for the husband's sins as well. And there's always a good time to start, which is today, to change those things, to look at the Savior for which your true redemption and restoration can come.

And I'm a firm, genuine believer that when we repent and turn ourselves both to the Savior and say, whatever it takes, whatever it takes, if it means I got to get my life vulnerable before some. If it means I gotta repent of some past practices and it makes me look really small now, if it means I gotta get out of some unhealthy relationships with some men who don't push me towards a culture of loving my wife, because we know that there are those circles too. Whatever it takes, man. I believe God is not only able to restore it back to the time we got married, but far, far, far beyond that. And I'm living proof of that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I was going in the same direction, man. Christ. Christ has to be the sinner. And for the guy in particular, man, you really got to question how much you love the Lord. Because one day, whether you are intentional about seeking it out or not, somebody's going to come to you with some correction, and it's going to be from the Lord. And you'll discover your heart in that moment.

Because it's almost like what you were describing about the guy who took all the social media stuff down. It's like, we've had those experiences. Tell someone to do the thing that we know they do not want to do. Break the video game system, throw away this phone or whatever it is at that point. How much do you really love the Lord? How much do you really seek after the Lord? Are you willing to get rid of these idols?

The thing is, if you're going to love your wife well, you're going to have to really lean into the Lord and be seeking after him. Without that, then, yeah, there's no chance. And you need to know that about yourself, about your own heart. I don't have a chance of loving my wife well at all.

Speaker 2

I think it's really interesting when you study the passage in Ephesians 5, which I missed for decades. I don't know if you realize. You probably do because you're a Bible memorization guy.

Verse 1 of Ephesians 5, I believe, sets the context for verse 25: "Love your wives as Christ loved the church." He says, "Imitate Christ as beloved children."

Speaker 4

There you go.

Speaker 2

And when you look up "imitate" in the Greek, it's copy, it's mimic. Yes. So it's like our lives should copy or look just like we mimic Jesus. And then when I teach this, I'm like, okay, so if you're honest, you're like, I can't do me. Somebody's gonna look at my life and think, I'm Jesus. No, that's impossible.

And then 16 verses later, he says, here's how. Do not get drunk on wine. That's a waste of time. Be filled with the Holy Spirit. Which is what you said. I can't do it. I have to have the Holy Spirit of God literally empower and control me. Fill me. And then out of that comes the context of speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs.

Wives, submit to your husbands. Submit to one another in the fear of Christ. Wives, submit to your husbands. It's all out of what you just said. I cannot do this without the power, the living power of the resurrected Christ living in me. Empower me to imitate God by loving my wife as Christ loved the church, submitting to my husband because he's submitting to Christ. It's all out of that.

So at the end of the day, it's like, guess what, guys? You got to fall on your face and say, I am absolutely. I'm a selfish jerk, dude.

Speaker 1

You have to say those words.

Speaker 2

Those exactly. Until I submit and literally let him flow and live through me. I'll never love her like that. And she'll never respect or love me the same way.

But if we do together, or if she never does, I still can. Yeah, I gotta go there.

So, guys, if you're listening, you're like, I want my wife. Forget your wife.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Get your stinking butt on your knees and say, I'm gonna love Jesus like.

Speaker 4

The way he wants me to do.

Speaker 2

And if my wife follows, she will. I'm still gonna to do this. And guess what? She will y.

Speaker 4

Without a doubt, bro.

Speaker 2

She is begging God for change.

Speaker 4

Exactly.

Speaker 2

You do that. That's leadership.

Speaker 4

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2

Thanks, guys.

Speaker 1

Amen.

Speaker 2

Hopefully that encouraged husbands. I hope wives listened and are saying to their husbands, "You got to listen to this. This was gold and will help you as a husband, love your wife as Christ loves." Love the church and the way God's called us to do.

And by the way, you can watch the whole thing on our YouTube channel. Just search Family Life Today. It's pretty... well, it's not as pretty as when the women were here, but here we are. You can watch the whole conversation on YouTube before we're done.

Today, let me just say this: we meet a ton of couples who say Family Life helped them when they needed it the most. And that's what being a Family Life partner is all about—helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.

Speaker 3

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Speaker 2

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