FamilyLife Today®

John Marriott: When heartache and hardship and suffering comes into our life, that opens up the door for those thoughts that kind of have been held at bay to come flooding through and say, you know, I've always wondered about this anyway.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

John Marriott: Right? What can I really trust you for if I can't trust you for my health? I can't trust you to make sure that I always have a job. I can't trust you that my kids are going to follow you. I can't trust you that my kids aren't going to get sick. Then what does it mean that you're good and what does it mean that I can trust you for? But we only have those questions, I think, when something like that enters and that can be a catalyst for sure why people end up saying, no, I I don't believe in this.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Anne Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. So we've been talking about how the next generation seems to be walking away from the faith, walking away from their parents' faith, walking away from the church in record numbers, which is really, really scary.

Ann Wilson: So scary and daunting. And we wonder as parents like, am I doing anything that's contributing to our kids or this next generation walking away?

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and we've had John Marriott here talking about this. John, we called you the expert, but I mean, you've studied this, you've written about this. We've got Recipe for Disaster book, Before You Go book. You've got other books as well, right, John?

John Marriott: Yeah, a couple more. There's one uh it's called Going, Going, Gone. And uh the subtitle is

Dave Wilson: That sounds really exciting right there, John. Going, Going, Gone. Same same topic?

John Marriott: Uh yeah, same topic. And it's it's it's really quite short and um it's free on my website if anyone's interested in uh getting a copy of that. Uh John Marriott

Dave Wilson: Your website is

John Marriott: .org

Dave Wilson: All right.

John Marriott: Yeah, and it's Going, Going, Gone and uh why believers leave the faith and what we can do to guard against it. It's very short, like a 150 pages double spaced kind of book, so it's small. Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Really? Yeah, that's good. I mean, we know you flew all the way from LA, where you are a professor at Biola. You're interacting with students pretty much every day about this topic. Help us understand why are they Going, Going, Gone? We 've already talked about intellectual questions, uh the culture. But as I've read all your books, you mentioned it's not just intellectual.

John Marriott: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: And when I read that, I'm like, you are so right. You're working with college students. What other factors are there besides I don't believe because there's not enough evidence? Again, we spent the last two days sort of investigating that. So if you want to listen to that, go back there. But there's emotions, there's what are the other factors?

John Marriott: Everyone who leaves the faith will say that they left it because they don't believe it's true. They will never say I left it because I want to sin, right? I left it because I'm in rebellion. And while that might be deeply the case, at least on the surface for them and and speaking charitably of them, they will say I left because I don't believe it's true. When you ask why don't you believe it's true anymore, there's the piece that we talked about last time, the intellectual reasons. There's a direct correlation between the two, right? If you have some intellectual problems, not enough evidence, contrary evidence, then it's clear to you that that the truth of Christianity doesn't follow.

But then there's some indirect reasons that cause people to say, yeah, this can't be true because and then there's some dots that need to be connected. And usually those would be things like this can't be true because of emotional reasons because if Christianity were true, this wouldn't have happened and this wouldn't have happened and this wouldn't have happened and all of those things happened and I have been so deeply hurt and wounded, it's pretty clear to me that Christianity can't be true because if it was, then I would have been treated a lot better. Or experiential reasons.

I lived my life in such a way that I followed God, I loved God, I was committed to God, I sacrificed for God. And then something tragic happened in my life and I feel like is this what I get?

Ann Wilson: Or what kind of a god could allow my pain

John Marriott: That 's right.

Ann Wilson: for me to suffer like that or my loved one to suffer like that?

John Marriott: Exactly. And then there's a sense of betrayal there, right? This is no longer necessarily intellectual. This is deeply personal that that God has not done for you. He we have kind of a reciprocity agreement with God, right? We give him what he wants, worship, adoration, obedience. We expect that he's going to repay the favor and give us what we want. And on the surface, as Christians, we we know that that's not a proper way to to look at things. But I experienced this myself a number of years ago where my wife and I put all of our eggs into one basket.

We really had felt the Lord had opened up some opportunities for a ministry that we were trying to start. All of the signs were pointing in this direction. We knew that it would be a little bit of a risk, but we were okay taking that because we thought we had seen the hand of the Lord in this. And within uh about a year and a half, we were asking ourselves, well, which car are we going to sell? And when do we have to sell this house? And when do we move in with your parents? And I got to the point where I started thinking, so this is what I get?

Really, Lord? I'm going to rip my kids out of school, take away from all of their friends, have my wife to move across the country, live with her parents, feel like a failure. And I lived my life in a fairly consistent, you know, pattern of following you to varying degrees of proximity, but it's always been in the same direction. And people you know, experienced this a lot. And and uh I I had to realize, wow, I I never thought that I would say something like that.

Dave Wilson: You know better, right? But you still we all do. Everybody does. And that's that's really, really difficult, isn't it? Because it's personal.

John Marriott: For sure.

Dave Wilson: I mean, I remember when I was in seminary out in California, this is ridiculous. And this is terrible. I don't even want to admit this. This is so embarrassing. Uh I had a a bike in our garage stolen. Uh garage door's up. Somebody stole the bike. Probably some kid in the neighborhood. And I just went on a search to find this thing. I'm going to find my bike. You know, it's just a pedal bike. Never found it. And I remember being mad at God. Here I am going to seminary. How hard is it for you to bring a bike back into my driveway?

And I mean, it's ridiculous. But a minor thing like that had me questioning the goodness of God.

Ann Wilson: Oh guys, I mean, mine is my sister led me to Jesus. She was amazing, up every morning 4:30 in the word, at church, raising four boys with her husband. Amazing. Like she was my hero. So when she was diagnosed with cancer, lung cancer at 44 and died 5 months later, I was like, I don't get it. Like there's you know, you always think, but there will be good in it. You know, you're always trying to get that silver lining. And I'm like, there is not a silver lining. And man, I remember being on the floor in my bathroom.

And I was on my face before God. And I remember making a choice and saying, God, this makes no sense to me. I don't see how that can happen and you're still good. Like it makes no sense to me. But I remember saying, but I will choose to follow you because I've seen your faithfulness and I have nowhere else to turn. But I could also see how some people could say, I am out. I'm out.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I mean, doesn't it seem like this is one of the biggest reason people walk away is just the evil

Ann Wilson: The pain.

Dave Wilson: that God a good God and a powerful God allows evil. And then when it gets personal, it's very easy to throw up your arms and say, I'm done.

John Marriott: Oh, for sure. And and I think that we all have if we think if we think about it much and we're reflective, there are some things that we believe as Christians that sort of our intention, right? We think that God is in control, but we have certain amount of free will because that's what makes us morally accountable and responsible. We think that Jesus is a man, but yet he's 100% God. We think God is three persons, yet one being. And God is good, but there's problems in the world and we're willing to kind of keep those in the back of our mind when things are going okay and life is good.

But when heartache and hardship and suffering comes into our life, that opens up the door for those thoughts that kind of have been held at bay to come flooding through and say, you know, I've always wondered about this anyway.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

John Marriott: Right? What can I really trust you for if I can't trust you for my health? I can't trust you to make sure that I always have a job. I can't trust you that my kids are going to follow you. I can't trust you that my kids aren't going to get sick. Then what does it mean that you are good and what does it mean that I can trust you for? But we only have those questions, I think, when something like that enters and that can be a catalyst for sure why people end up saying, no, I I don't believe in this anymore.

Dave Wilson: Now how did you navigate your little crisis of faith? You didn't move in with the in-laws?

John Marriott: We did not move in with the in-laws. No. That would have been wonderful, of course, but um it uh it didn't happen and I'm I'm grateful that it didn't happen.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

John Marriott: We'll talk it

Ann Wilson: But wait, but it is the parable of the soils in Luke 8:13 when Jesus said, these on the rocky soil are those who when they hear receive the word with joy, and these have no firm root. They believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. And every single one of us are faced with times of temptation for sure.

John Marriott: Yeah, and I think that in your story where you said, I'm I'm going to trust, I think that that's where we all have to get to in those times. And I don't think that it's a trust just a blind leap of faith. I don't think that it's just

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

John Marriott: believing despite the counter evidence. But I do think that we can at least in those moments say, all right, then then how do I know that God is good and how do I know that he can take something really bad and turn it into something good? And I think the answer to both of those questions is the cross. Right? Because we say, look, even though all of these horrible and hard things happened, how do I explain that God sent his son into the world to die such a terrible death on a Roman cross? The only explanation is either it didn't happen, that God is an insane glory hound or that he really is who he claims to be and he really loves us.

And I think that the third option makes the most sense. And then the cross also tells us that God can take the worst of situations, the greatest evil ever committed, and he can turn it into something incredibly good that the entire world benefits from. And I think that based on that foundation, we can say, all right, I don't understand. I don't know why you're doing this. I don't know how this is going to work out for good. And I mean, never see it in my lifetime. But I can trust you because you've demonstrated yourself to be faithful in the past.

Ann Wilson: It's the gospel.

John Marriott: Yeah, it is the gospel.

Ann Wilson: Exactly.

Dave Wilson: All right, Anne, quick question. What would I say is my favorite thing about you?

Ann Wilson: Is this a trick question?

Dave Wilson: See, this is why we need Spousology.

Ann Wilson: Spousology is a couples trivia game that puts how well you know each other to the test with plenty of laughs along the way.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, there's 240 questions, so whether you've been married two years or 46 like us,

Ann Wilson: there's always something new to discover.

Dave Wilson: All right, go grab Spousology for your next date night or couples game night at shop.familylife.com.

Ann Wilson: And Dave, the answer was my sense of humor.

Dave Wilson: Sure, let's let's go with that. It is interesting that every question, whatever it is, is going to be answered by a person. It really isn't even the reliability of scripture, although that's significant obviously because it reveals this person. But if Jesus didn't live, didn't die, didn't raise from the dead as Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15, then we can just uh our faith is in vain, walk away. But it does come back to that. And even as a parent, when our children walk through the valley of questions and doubt, that's where we got to end up taking them back to is the person Jesus.

And the evidence there is overwhelming.

Ann Wilson: And as we said earlier, like to be able to talk about that and the evidence that is there, but even having that discussion, is it true? Is the resurrection true?

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, but I you know, here's one that you you already mentioned that I'd love to hear more thoughts on. You know, it isn't always intellectual. It could be hurt.

John Marriott: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: So a person that's been hurt by the church, by uh the Christian community, by a Christian, by their parent, you name it, that is significant in people walking away. Talk about that.

John Marriott: Very significant, right? And it it is a great example of how um there is an indirect relationship here, why they come to the conclusion that Christianity is not true. There's not a one-to-one relationship between saying there's no evidence for your claim. It's if your claim was true, this should be the case and this should be the case and this should be the case. But the opposite is the case. You people treat me worse

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

John Marriott: than my friends who, you know, aren't Christians. You are judgmental, you're hypocritical, you're mean-spirited. You only care about being right. One of the folks who I interviewed in my dissertation um her name is Lori. And and she's since become my friend and she has a really wonderful story. But she came from an abusive home on the East Coast. In her early 20s, she moved to the Pacific Northwest. She was not a Christian, she was not a believer. She had no faith in anything at all. She got invited to go to a uh church, started attending the church, and committed her life to Christ.

She got involved at the church and unfortunately made a really poor choice in the gentleman who she married. He physically abused her. He physically abused their daughter, put them both into the hospital. And when she got out, in her mind she had no other options to feed her daughter and to care for her daughter than to go back to the lifestyle that she was living on the East Coast, which was being um an exotic dancer. And then she reached out to the church that she went to and said, hey, I'm in deep trouble here. Can you help us?

What would have you been doing to make money? I'm ashamed to tell you this is what I've been doing. They said what you're doing is sinful. You should be ashamed of yourself. We're ashamed of you. And we will not help you. And if you ever set foot on the church campus, we'll call the police because we think that you are a threat to the children here. And she said, if this is what Christianity produces, it cannot possibly be true and I don't have anything to do with it. And she subsequently left the faith.

Ann Wilson: I mean, it's so contrary to Jesus' life. Look who he hung around. And and I'm not condoning her lifestyle, but the church should be the place where we open the doors. But you're saying that's one of the reasons those emotional needs not being met is one of the reasons we can leave the church.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and it shows the power of our lives compared to anything else. It 's like what we do, what we say. And you know, I'm thinking even as parents, if our kids walk away, our life still will speak no matter what they're doing or what they're thinking. How we live is what's going to draw them back. More than an argument, you know, or a piece of evidence.

Ann Wilson: And our judgmental attitudes as parents, we have to be super careful of what we're saying about the other students at our kids' schools.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: I remember I remember our son was I think he's just a freshman in high school and he was talking about this boy and he had talked about him before. I said, oh, is that that bad kid that smokes pot? I think about that comment. Like and and my son stopped for a minute and he said, is he bad because he smokes pot, mom? Is that what he is? And right away, I mean, talk about conviction. I just put his identity based on what he's acting out. And I thought, no, like that is on like what a terrible thing to say.

But when our kids see how judgmental we can become, even of a lifestyle, we may not agree with it, but to label as what an idiot or what a bad kid or you know, are you seeing that with college students and with your own kids?

John Marriott: Oh yeah. One of the significant factors in why children and young people retain their faith is because of the credibility enhancing displays of behavior that they see in their parents. So a study came out from uh gentleman who I'm acquainted with who's an atheist. Um and he is interested in why people become religious, why people stay religious. And his conclusion is is that the reason why people who are raised in Christian homes, one of the big factors in them staying is because their parents uh engage in what he calls creds, C for credibility, E enhancing displays.

And what he means by that is is that when people live as very simple, right? When people live what they believe, and if you believe something that is beautiful, and if you believe something that is compassionate and merciful and stands for truth, like Jesus, you know, is full of grace and he's full of truth. And if you live that way and you're willing to even sacrifice for what you believe, that really enhances the truthfulness in the eyes of of kids. And one of the examples that he gives is if dad loves football, but he chooses to go to church on Sunday instead of stay home and watch football, that speaks louder than words do to the kids because they say, wow, dad loves football, but he's going to go to church.

He's choosing it over that. Wow, there must be something here. May not be consciously thought, but it's that's the message that gets sent.

Ann Wilson: I remember our kids for Dave's I think it was

Dave Wilson: You're not going to go into football, are you? We we never talk about that on this program.

Ann Wilson: No, I'm no, I'm not actually. But for Dave's 50th birthday, I had a surprise birthday party and our sons were I don't know if they're in college, but they couldn't come to this gathering I had, but they each wrote a letter. And I remember every one of them saying they're sitting under his teaching. He's their pastor. But I remember each one of them in their own way wrote something like, dad, I've heard you preach or whatever, but the thing that has marked my life is your life.

Dave Wilson: Mhm.

Ann Wilson: Like I'm watching you live out what you're preaching. And that's given you so much credibility and that has helped my faith so much. So you're right. Our kids are watching us. Isn't that so scary?

John Marriott: Yeah, and and a really significant other component, another relationship is having kind of these secondary influential authority figures in their life that are outside of the immediate family, right? One of the things I appreciate so much about the two youth leaders at our church, one's name is Kyle, the other um Ryan. And my kids love them. They love them because Kyle and Ryan love my kids.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

John Marriott: And all the kids in the youth group, right? They they take them out for lunch, they spend quality time with them. They're fully invested in their lives. When you find someone in a worldview or religion that you are really drawn to, that you think is really great, that really you recognize has a love for you, you are far more inclined to hear what they have to say and want it to be true because of your perception of who they are. And so having these other people in our lives and in our kids' lives can really go a long way to influencing uh people to hold on to their faith because they find it something that they actually want to be true.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, one of the things we did as young parents is we prayed for that person in our sons' lives because we knew it wasn't just going to be us. It's it's actually going to be somebody that's not us that might have even more of a role in their faith journey. And God provided Frank and Ryan and Rob for all three sons at different stages. And when they walked in our house or our boys left with them, it was just an answer to prayer. It was like, thank God for for them because we knew. I think they had just as much of an impact as we did, don't you think?

Ann Wilson: Absolutely, especially in those teen years when they weren't necessarily spending as much time with us. They were with their friends more, but that was really a gift for us.

John Marriott: Yeah, and and one one really significant relationship. And this will be really encouraging for some folks and maybe not so encouraging for others because not all of us have grandparents that can be there for our kids, but Vern Bengston was a professor at USC. He did a 30-year study on 1,500 families and wanted to see which ones passed on faith and which ones did not pass on faith. And one of the key components of families that managed to pass on faith that endured throughout, you know, those 35 years to their children was the relationship that children had with grandparents.

Ann Wilson: That's encouraging.

John Marriott: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, we're grandparents now, so

Ann Wilson: That's right.

Dave Wilson: In in some ways, as a grandparent, you think we're done, we don't really have the impact, but we've heard that we can have a greater impact than even our own kids.

John Marriott: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: And that's exciting.

John Marriott: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: You know, that's like a a mission for us as grandparents.

Ann Wilson: Mhm.

Dave Wilson: Let me ask you one last question. If you were looking across the table at a parent who's got a teenager that says, dad or or mom, I don't think I can believe anymore, most important thing they can do in that moment?

John Marriott: The most important thing I think they can do in that moment is to say, regardless of whether you believe or you don't believe at the end of this journey, I will always love you. You will always be a part of our family. I will always accept you. I will always be proud of you. My love is not conditional upon you believing and affirming the same things that I believe and that I affirm. And that I hope that as you go through this journey that you'll invite me to be part of it so that we can kind of go through it together.

Uh in doing that, you keep lines of communication open. You let them know that you're a safe person to talk to, that they have freedom to think, which they're going to do anyway. But that they can come to you on their terms and and talk about these things. And so I think that that's the most important thing um that we can do in that moment.

Dave Wilson: You know, I'm almost positive that our listeners have no idea how important they are to our program.

Ann Wilson: I think you're right.

Dave Wilson: Our prayer partners and especially our financial partners, people who donate financially to Family Life Today, make this program actually happen.

Ann Wilson: And your monthly gift really is changing the hearts and lives of families not only here, but around the world.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, we just want to say we would love for you to join and be a partner with us. You make this program happen. You are literally changing the world. So like I'm going to make sure that other people, even my neighbors down the streets, lives are changed because of this program. And if you'd like to jump in and join us and become a partner, all you have to do is go to familylifetoday.com and click on the donate button right there and you can start joining today. We would love to have you as a partner with us to change the world for Jesus.

Ann Wilson: Join us.

Dave Wilson: What another great day with John Marriott talking about doubt. And I think we I don't know if you ever doubt. You're just like perfect.

Ann Wilson: No, I'm not. But I feel like for me this is a really good conversation because it helps me to identify and to know how to communicate to those that really are struggling.

Dave Wilson: Especially parents who are trying to navigate that world with your kids. Again, the book is called Before You Go, Uncovering Hidden Factors in Faith Loss. And you might want to pick it up right now. Just go to familylifetoday.com, click on the link in the show notes and get it and walk that journey maybe with your kids.

Ann Wilson: Hey, and thanks for joining us on Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.