FamilyLife Today®

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Speaker 4

I'm not saying that women need to submit to men. That's not what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that God has orchestrated within the marriage for women to submit to their own husbands. So that is.

I think that's really important to understand that we're not just giving a blanket statement here of women just needing to submit to all men.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 1

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylife today.com. this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 2

So today's gonna be a different kind of day. I'm gonna be without Dave and it's gonna be a girls' day. I have Brittany Gray with me and EC's Todd, and we are gonna be talking about submission. So let's.

Okay, so we're gonna talk about something today that can create a lot of feelings. So let me address you as a listener or a viewer. When you hear the word submission, what comes to your heart and mind? What are your feelings about the word? Because that's what I mean. That's where we're going today. We're gonna talk about what is submission? Is it hard? Is it easy? What's the Bible say?

And I'm just gonna be truthful. This has been a hard topic for me. And I have two women that you have heard before. They've been on Family Life Today before, and I love them. They're full of joy, they're full of wisdom, they're fun. But one of the reasons we asked them to be on was because, I'll just address you two, you display incredible joy about this topic, and you're like, this is so great—submission. I'm like, wait, what did you say? This is so free. I'm like, oh, my. We need to get your perspective, so tell us who you are, what you do.

Speaker 4

Yeah, so my name is Arianisis Todd. Most people call me either Arie or Isis. I'm married to Isaac Blake Todd. He's pastor at New Creation Fellowship.

And yeah, I'm a mother. I have my baby girl, Lilianis, and she's 15 months. I've just been really enjoying this season.

Speaker 2

That's so fun. And esis, when you were here, just not too long ago, when this topic came up, it didn't really come up, but you did say when you met your husband, like, the only person I can submit to is my father.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But then you said, and I thought, I could submit to this man. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, What? And so. Okay, Brittany, introduce yourself.

Speaker 3

Yes, my name's Brittany Gray. My husband is Recap Gray. He is also a pastor at New Christian Fellowship in Orlando, Florida.

We have four kiddos, ages 4 to 15, teens and preschoolers. We have very different journeys of our backgrounds, very different means of getting to where we are.

But, yeah, we are both joyful in submitting to the Lord and submitting to our husbands.

Speaker 2

And you're really good friends.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's my sister. Many years of friendship, many years of hardships that brought us closer to each other. So, yeah, she's been through life with us. I'm getting emotional already.

Speaker 2

I love it.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 3

She's been a sister to me, a mother to my children, and we've been friends for many years.

Speaker 2

And you have both walked through some really hard things, both of you, and you've been there for each other and.

Speaker 3

We'Ve been through it together and come out the other side with the Lord gracing both of us with so much love.

Speaker 2

Well, let's get into it. I'll share my story first about this submission thing. I didn't grow up in the church, and I'm a strong person. My parents always emphasized leadership, and that was part of who I am. When I took a spiritual gift test, my number one gift was leadership.

Then I gave my life to Jesus, and I heard this word, submission. I thought, huh, I wonder what that means. We all have different ideas of what it means based on what we've heard—maybe from Bible teaching or from some people being really mean. But I was very open; I just wanted to follow Jesus. I wanted to do whatever He called me to be. If submission is a word that I need to understand and grow in, I'm all about that.

However, I started getting into some teaching that made me think, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Does that mean I don't have a voice? Does that mean when it says to be quiet? I'm like, wait, that's not me. I'm not quiet. I'm not gentle. I'm big and strong. And here's what I thought: oh, I'm not gonna fit in that mold at the church.

When we went to seminary—Dave and I both went to seminary because we knew we wanted to follow Jesus our whole lives—I said to Dave, "You're not gonna become a pastor."

Speaker 4

Right. Wow.

Speaker 2

Because I'm thinking, I cannot fit into that mold, dude. Like, I think you're gonna be amazing if you decide to do that. But you're gonna have this crazy, rebellious, strong wife. And people are gonna be like, she needs to quiet down and get herself under control.

And to be submissive in quotes. Because I don't think I had a great understanding of what it was. But now, as I've come to learn and grow and understand God's word and even what Paul meant as he's talking about this in Ephesians, I have a bet.

And I think that's where we wanna go. So tell me your journeys in this whole area.

Speaker 4

So, yes, when I say that there is a man after God's heart, a man of integrity, that is my father. And so it wasn't difficult to submit to him.

Speaker 2

What did it look like for you as a young girl? You're watching him. What are the traits that you saw that you think that is amazing?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So I'm telling you, I could not get away with anything, with anything. Like, one. He was like, the guy that you're talking to at school, he's gonna offer you weed in a couple of weeks. So just be careful. And I was like, what guy? What are you talking about? And literally, that's what happened. And I mean, list the Lord, that's all I can say. The Lord.

That's what it was like growing up with my father and also having a mother who is also prayerful. And so whenever I was going through my rebellious stages or I was giving them issues or anything, the way that I saw my parents fight for me was on their knees at 2 in the morning, at 3 in the morning, praying and crying out to the Lord.

Speaker 2

And you trusted them?

Speaker 4

I did.

Speaker 2

Okay, Brittany, let's hear your side of everything.

Speaker 3

I grew up completely opposite my family was not; we were not a family of believers. We had a family history of strong women in our household.

So there was also a history of very abusive men in our families. The women had to be strong in order to keep going, to protect themselves, to protect themselves, and to hold the family together.

Speaker 2

Were your parents married?

Speaker 3

My parents were married. Still are married. Okay. Yes, yes. It's been, yeah, 40 years for them.

Speaker 2

Did your mom lead, did you feel like your mom was the leader of the family?

Speaker 3

She, I would say yes. I would say she was and is the leader of the family. And I saw the benefits of that.

I saw when I was growing up, I saw she could hold it down. She still can.

Like we had a well-oiled machine of our home. Growing up, I was just like, this is how the machine works.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So when was the first time you were exposed to. You became a Christian?

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 2

And then when this idea of submission and the word, you're starting to learn the word Recab is a man of the word. He knows the word. So what were your feelings about it? What were your thoughts?

Speaker 3

Yeah, about submission through going to church. So I became a believer, ironically, through recab. My husband, he brought me to Christ, but he quickly, I don't want to say left me alone, but he let me have time to be discipled.

So just through discipleship, hearing these, this word submission, hearing, you know, submit to your husbands. At first I was like, yeah, that's not gonna work for me. That's not how I was raised.

Speaker 2

So you and I are kind of alike that way.

Speaker 3

Yes, very much so.

Speaker 2

Like, yeah, that sounds good.

Speaker 3

But yeah. And honestly, that's what's so interesting. As you talked about leadership skills, I wouldn't say my gifting is leadership, but I'm more of a servant person where I'm a doer. I just want to say, I don't even know what that is.

Speaker 2

You're getting everything done.

Speaker 3

So to me, yeah, coming into submission, it's like, you're going to stop me from doing what I'm doing. I'm doing everything. Good. Why would I stop? You know? And this was before Recap and I were even dating, before we were even talking about that.

I remember my friend Kendall, Kendall Washington, she came and talked to me about it and I was like, why would you want to do that? Like, why? Like you're like me, why would you want to do that?

And she was like, do you know the relief that you will feel when you don't have to do everything? You don't have to make all the decisions. You have a covering and protection over you. Someone that is not just supporting you, but they're guarding you.

And I was like, oh, okay.

Speaker 2

Those are interesting words.

Speaker 3

I like those words. Yeah, I like those words. And so that was like I said before I even met Recab. So then when I did meet Recab, that was one of the first examples, his family was the first example I saw of a submissive wife.

Speaker 2

What did that look like in a good way?

Speaker 3

I knew recap before Christ.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And I saw everything that she was submissive and I saw it in a negative light.

Speaker 1

Oh.

Speaker 3

So I saw all the negative things of she serves her husband, she makes a plate for him. She goes out of her way to show him honor. I was just like, this is so extra. Like that's not, that is not good. And it was insane.

Becoming a Christian and seeing she's doing all the things I'm reading about now, like this is, this is like it was eye opening of like this is what a submissive woman looks like.

And Tricia Gray, my mother-in-law, she is an amazing leader.

Speaker 2

Like shees, you know her.

Speaker 4

Yes, she's amazing. I love her.

Speaker 3

She is amazing. She has amazing leadership skills, amazing teaching skills. She can run the world. Like she has, she has all that it takes to just lead in everything.

So when I saw her practice that act of submission to her husband, where I, you know, from the outset I could see his flaws, I was like, I know exactly what my father-in-law is doing wrong. Why isn't she pointing that out?

And just to see her willingly take that role of submission to him was like, okay, this can be done and it can be beautiful.

Speaker 2

And she wasn't losing part of herself.

Speaker 3

She wasn't.

Speaker 2

Or her voice.

Speaker 3

She was a prayer woman as well. She still is. She's a woman of prayer as well.

So I think as I've gone through these years, I've seen her; she's not losing her voice vocally. She's taking it to prayer. Everything that she has to say, she's not, oh no, I can't say it. She's taking it to the Lord.

Speaker 2

I don't think I Learned that for 30 years in my marriage.

Speaker 3

And it's just like your heart doesn't want to do that because you're like, I just want everyone around me to hear what I have to say and do what I.

But for her to just hold it in her heart and take it to the Lord, and sometimes those things are brought to others. Sometimes she brings things to us of revelations she's had in prayer.

But just seeing that model was just absolutely life changing for me.

Speaker 2

Hey, I think what we're talking about is great.

And as you're listening, if there's something on today's episode that you're just clicking with, we want you to know that you're not alone.

Because every single marriage has its fair share of highs, but also lows.

Speaker 1

And if you're like us, you're wondering, where do we get help? Where can we go to get help?

Well, first of all, you're getting help right now, and we're thankful that you're listening. But we also want to share one of our favorite resources.

It's a free guide that's filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real life couples who've been where you are. And you can grab your free copy today at familylife.com/marriagehelp. That's familylife.com/marriagehelp.

Speaker 2

Well, let's open the word and talk about what the Bible says submission is. And you guys both have your Bibles out. So this is in Ephesians, which I love the book of Ephesians because Paul's writing this book in and it's a circulating book that went around the area.

But those first three chapters are theology in Ephesians. So he's saying like this is who you are, this is who God is. But then those last three chapters of Ephesians are practical living. And if we know who we are and who God is, then this is what it will look like as we live it out.

So when Paul gets into Ephesians 5, we're getting into the practical side. So will one of you read Ephesians and kind of those roles of a husband and a wife?

Speaker 4

So look carefully then how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise, making the best use of the time because the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery. But be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always for everything, to God the Father, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

Wives, submit to your own husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the Church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word, so that he might present the Church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way, husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife, loves himself, for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church because we are members of his body.

Therefore, a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the Church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

Speaker 2

All right, let's break it down. Not that we're gonna break it down theologically, but I think one of the things that has always attracted all of us here at Family Life about you two is that you're strong, vibrant, alive, women who carry joy, power, wisdom. And it's like you're thriving.

And so you're living this out of what you just read in Ephesians, and you're thriving in your homes and under this leadership and under this area of submission.

And as I'm reading that, here's what I'm thinking. The poor men. Do you think that? Yeah, because we have one little verse, and they have a lot that they're supposed to live out.

So what are your thoughts as we read through this?

Speaker 4

What I think, what's so beautiful about this? To your point where you were saying that in the beginning, it talks. It's like all this theology, right? And then it gets to the practicals at the later chapters.

And it's like Paul in the beginning of Ephesians is showing us how God has perfectly united us through the work of Christ, the reconciling work of Christ on the cross, meaning, you know, regardless of you being Jew or Gentile, that we are. He says, like, the mystery is that we are co-heirs. Like that Gentiles are co-heirs with Jews.

And he breaks down, like, how God broke down the dividing wall of hostility. He tells us who we were and now who we are and what he did and how he had predestined this from the beginning.

And so in light of all of that, he says, this is how I want the body of Christ to live this out. This is what it looks like to be perfectly united. Right?

And so I think that when we think of unity or when we think of it being united, we can often think of equality, but we can mistake diversity for inequality. Do you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 4

And so. But the reality is that unity can't exist unless there's diversity. There's no such thing. Because if not, it's uniformity. Right?

Speaker 2

And we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Speaker 4

Exactly. And so if we are all one, if we are united in Christ, then therefore diversity exists within that unity. Right? And so here God is saying, here's where the diversity is and this is how it's played out.

Men, you have this role. Women, this is your role. This is what I'm asking you to do. I'm asking you to live not as unwise, but as wise, submitting to one another, addressing one another in songs and hymns and thankfulness in our hearts and prayers.

And that is lived out in a marriage. Wives, submitting to your own husbands.

Speaker 2

Because when it's not, you keep emphasizing that own husbands.

Speaker 4

Yeah, because I'm not saying that women need to submit to men. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that God has orchestrated within the marriage for women to submit to their own husbands. So that is, I think that's really important to understand that we're not doing just giving a blanket statement here of women just needing to submit to all men. That's what you have no voice. Da da da.

That's not what the apostle Paul is saying. He is saying that within your home, in order for it to reflect and to flourish, it needs to reflect the nature of God. Right? So like that's what we see in the Garden of Eden, right? God in his diversity in perfect unity. Because that's how we can say that God is love, right?

There is diversity within the Godhead, right? So then he creates creation, which reflects the Godhead, right? The diversity with plants, animals, all of that. And then as he creates man and woman, who are a reflection of the image of God, it also reflects his diversity and unity that's in there. And that's love, right?

Speaker 2

I love that because it's also of Jesus submitting to the Father.

Speaker 3

Absolutely.

Speaker 2

Was Jesus less than. No.

Speaker 4

And so think about that within the Godhead, where love exists, where we say God is love. The reason why we can say that God is love is because there's diversity within the Godhead, because they love each other. Part of that diversity is that the Son submits to the Father.

I think that oftentimes we think of Jesus submitting to the Father as something that he does in his earthly ministry. But actively, right now, Jesus is submitting to his Father in heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, because Jesus doesn't return until the Father tells him to.

Right. And so submission exists within love. When I look at this text, I'm just seeing God's heart for us to reflect him, to reflect his nature.

Speaker 2

Well, I think, too, as some listeners are kind of going through this, they're thinking through it. They could be thinking, well, Jesus could submit to the Father because he knew him well and trusted him. I don't know if I really even know my husband or if I trust him. Like, there's always gonna be a pushback.

And I think, too, it would be good to talk about what submission is not. I like that you even said, like, it's to your own husband. That's significant.

What else? What are you thinking, Brittany? I can tell that something's going around in your head.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I think it's so perfect we're together. Cause she hit on your own husband's. My. My emphasis is as to the Lord. It doesn't say, submit to your own husbands because they're really great guys and you trust them.

Speaker 2

There it is.

Speaker 3

And so as to the Lord means you're submitting as to the Lord.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And you are trusting in the Lord firstly before anything. And so submission is. Is not just action you're doing. Like you said.

Speaker 2

What are we going to do?

Speaker 3

Submission is your posture. Are you submitting to the Lord in all that you do? My favorite example in the Scripture is Hannah. I've just talked about that in the scriptures. It doesn't say she's submissive as a wife.

Speaker 2

Yeah, she was really submissive. Remind our listeners who Hannah is in the Bible.

Speaker 3

So, yes, Hannah is in First Samuel. She is the mother of Samuel, the prophet. Hannah's only mentioned in those two scriptures.

And she was without child. And she prayed to the Lord fervently for a son. So much so that the priest thought she was drunk because she prayed so.

Speaker 2

Fervently for this yelling and crying and crying. He's thinking, she's crazy drunk right now.

Speaker 3

Crazy drunk. He was like, get out of here, you drunk lady. And as she confessed, I am praying for this son. Eli said, your promise is given to you. And so she ended up having a son.

I think the significant thing for me in that that connects to this is that she prayed to the Lord, if you give me the son, I will give him back to you. And that wasn't a commandment in the scriptures. You can't look back and say, oh, yeah, if you pray to God for a son, you must give him back to me.

That was out of her posture of love to the Lord. That was out of her heart.

Speaker 2

Can you imagine giving your child that you've been praying for for years, and now you're going to give him to this older man who's not a good.

Speaker 4

Father, by the way?

Speaker 3

Yes. As he shooed with his other children.

Speaker 2

But her partner posture of her heart, which she wasn't giving him to Eli, she's giving him to God.

Speaker 3

Absolutely. Absolutely. And so just seeing that as she's serving as to the Lord, and so much flourished from that, you know, her giving of Samuel blessed the generation, the entire generation. I mean, he was a prophet. He has two books named after him. He was a prophet for many generations, anointed the kings and David and Saul. David and Saul. He was there through all of that for his many years.

And he served the Lord and he submitted to the Lord for those many years. Being a prophet in that time was not simple and easy. You're not going around saying, everybody's gonna do good, you're gonna have a great time. But he was pouring his heart out before the Lord himself, saying, "Lord, please, we don't need a king. Just tell them to figure things out."

And God was like, "I'm gonna give them what they want and I'm gonna let them see what they really want in having a king." So just seeing her submission to the Lord is also a reflection of how that picture of flourishing amongst the nations can even come.

Speaker 2

I love that this has been such a great conversation, and we're going to continue this conversation on submission tomorrow.

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