FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

God made a woman to be a helper. Her job is to help this man be the priest he is supposed to be. He cannot be what he's supposed to be without her. So therefore, he must love her and cherish her.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. Well, it's just me today. There's no Ann Wilson sitting beside me, so it's not going to be as pretty in the studio, but it's going to be a great day to talk about what it looks like to love our wives as Christ loved the church.

So we've got Ike Todd back and Recap Gray. These are the husbands of the wives you heard my wife Ann talking to about submission and marriage.

So let me start here. I don't want to start with the word submission because it's an inflammatory word, probably more for women than men. But, you know, as we think about our roles as husbands—and I know we're both dads here—today's sort of about the role we've been called to as a husband.

What are the words that come to your mind first when you think, "Okay, I want to be a godly husband?" What thoughts or words or concepts drive you to be the man God wants you to be as a husband in your home?

Speaker 1

For me, the word that came to mind was leader. Like, I just want to be a good leader. I want to rule with righteousness and justice. But it was a sermon that you.

Speaker 4

Preached that he's looking at Recap, if.

Speaker 3

You'Re not watching on YouTube.

Speaker 1

That changed my desire. I wanna love rather than lead.

Speaker 3

Do you remember what Recap said that made you think love?

Speaker 1

I think it was probably Genesis series. And you probably said those exact words. Like, we talk often about leading when we should be talking about loving.

It's like, love your wives, not lead your W. So something about that just resonated with me.

Cause when I think of leadership, love is kind of secondary. It's like being a loving leader, but it's like, no love will do the leading. You know what I mean?

Speaker 4

That's real.

Speaker 1

So that was important for me. That was huge for me. So, yeah, that's what I think about. I just want to be a loving husband.

Speaker 3

Same thing for you or different.

Speaker 4

Well, I got a story, too. This was when we were in Philly and I was doing those seminary intensives. So I would have to drive down for a week to D.C., and I was going to the RTS campus in Virginia. Man, it was just a hectic time. I had just gotten into ministry some time before that. We were just missing each other. It wasn't like a bad time or anything; we were just missing each other.

So we called our mentors, Larry Smith and his wife Harriet—shout out to them in Philly. They sat us down at the table, and, you know, as he lovingly did, he was grilling me on why we were missing each other. But Ms. Harriet, his wife, looked to my wife and asked her a question. I'll never forget her for the rest of my life. She turned to Ephesians 5 and said, "Yeah, I know Recab loves you, but there's a part of that passage that says they cherish and nourish their wives." She then asked my wife, in front of me, "But do you feel cherished and nourished?"

And she just began to weep, really. It was like she didn't want to say no, but through tears, she said no. Even now, that gets me every time. When I think of being a husband, I think of cherishing my wife and nourishing her. The imagery that comes to my mind is like a flower. It’s my job to see that flower blossom and bloom to the glory it was meant to be.

That requires leadership. Like, that's my job—to water her with the Word and to really cherish her and nourish her to a point where the fullness of who God made her to be blossoms like a flower. The word that comes to my mind is cherish, and that's always my barometer.

Speaker 3

Do you think she'd answer that question different today?

Speaker 4

Yeah, I think so. I hope so. I hope so. Yeah.

Speaker 3

We might have to ask you.

Speaker 1

That's interesting, for sure. Yeah.

Speaker 3

I mean, that is a powerful image, because whenever I've taught on this, you know, love your wives as Christ loved the church. Ephesians 5.

You know, I think as men, and I think maybe even our culture, it's like love has lost its meaning because we use the word bro for everything.

I love Jesus. I love San Francisco 49ers ice cream.

Speaker 4

It's like.

Speaker 3

It doesn't carry a lot of weight, but cherish. I remember when I was thinking about how to teach this and understand it, I went and looked up just the definition, and cherish is beloved.

It's related to costly, which means things that you cherish, you spend money on, you spend a lot of money on. And so I read that.

And you talk about it and you study it and you celebrate it. And I was like, I think guys, at least me cherish stuff.

Speaker 4

It's real.

Speaker 3

You know, I parked my car. I had a nice car, so I don't want anybody to ding it with their doors.

And maybe Ann shared their story, but I have guitars in my house. I could show you a picture of this room where they hang on the wall. It's our studio, and I've got these really nice guitars hanging there.

Well, guess what else is in that room? A humidifier. Because in the winter, it gets really dry. I can tell you right now on my phone what the humidity is in that room.

Yeah, right. If you were going to pick one up, I'd be.

Hey, recap. Hold on, hold on.

Speaker 4

Are you covering your belt?

Speaker 3

Scratching my guitar. And I thought, in. In. Might have shared this with your wives, I don't know. But she said it from the stage before.

She goes, there was a night where I crawled into bed with Dave, and it was in the winter in Michigan, and it's so dry in our house that I'm getting nosebleeds. And she turned to me, she lay dead.

She goes, man, I wish I was one of your guitars. In other words, there was a humidifier there. Literally, there's a little humidifier in our bedroom. Yo, that was empty.

Speaker 1

Wow.

Speaker 3

Cuz I. The guitars, though, in the other room, I can tell you on my phone what it is. And I'm like, that's a. It's funny. It's like she was. She was laughing.

Speaker 4

Funny.

Speaker 3

Now if I was your guitar, you would really treat me and understand. I need moisture.

Speaker 4

I need this.

Speaker 3

You talk about me, you'd put me. And I'm like, that's what Paul was saying when you said cherish and nourish, they come to life and they bloom. You wonder if your wife's feeling that. Do you think your wives feel that?

Speaker 4

It's funny. I even answer this for Ike because. So they've been married less time than us. We. 16 years at the time of this recording. Yeah. What about you? 16.

Speaker 1

We going on 10.

Speaker 4

Like, I actually did they premarital before they got married, which is really crazy.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 4

But I can genuinely say, like, within three years of their marriage, like, I was looking to him, like, as a model for me, really, for how to love my wife better, really.

And part of that, I think, is the beauty even of the church. You know, you look at new believers, you're like, yo, you're so on fire for Jesus. It reminds you not of what you used to be, but of what you should be more of going forward.

Speaker 3

Just love.

Speaker 4

Yeah, absolutely. And I think them, you know, in a younger season in their marriage, like, it definitely was a constant challenge of, like, do I still not just love, but, like, Brittany, like, this? Cherish her like this, make sure she knows she's liked.

And I'm still, like, going after you with everything. And so I don't know if you know how much your model has been just something I've kept my eyes on. Like, and my wife knows you feel.

Speaker 3

Like it's still that way.

Speaker 1

When we talk about cherish, it's tough for me because, again, my mind goes to leadership, and so I naturally focus on that, and then some of the love takes a backseat.

But I do think my wife would talk about her flourishing with me, and she'll have, I think, specific reasons. I've heard her talk about these things before.

But for me, I know how much I'm failing and how much I want to do more and how much she deserves. So even when I hear her talk about it, it's like, yeah, that's cool. But I really, really should be cherishing her much more.

Speaker 3

You know, in the fast pace of life, sometimes the best gift you can give your marriage is time. Time to slow down, reflect, and reconnect.

Speaker 2

Family life's Weekend to remember gives you just that dedicated time away to invest in your relationship with your spouse and with God.

Speaker 3

I know you guys are thinking what I'm thinking.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

But it costs a whole bunch of money. It does cost some money.

But guess what, guys and gals? It's half price right now. Through January 26th, you can get two registrations for the price of one.

That's 50% off all of our getaways, making it easier than ever to give your marriage the gift of time.

Speaker 2

So just head to family life today and register today.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Well, let's talk about this leadership thing, because you started there, you know, family life, our weekend to remember. We have a different manual today than when Ann and I first started teaching. But in the first manual, it's still the same concept.

In the first manual, when we would split up on Sunday morning with just the men, and then Ann would talk to the women about this cherishing, loving your wives, we would always say this: We're called to lead like a servant, love like the savior. That was the phrase that was in our manual.

So what do you think it looks like to lead like a servant? Or maybe it doesn't look that way. I mean, how do you guys look at it this way? Because the submission side of them following us has a lot to do with how we lead. So how do you lead?

Speaker 1

Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out, man.

Speaker 3

But you just do whatever she tells you to do.

Speaker 4

Well, that's leadership.

Speaker 1

That's interesting because that's one of my personal struggles. Because I think I'm naturally a more strong leader.

Speaker 3

More strong than her in general, yeah.

Speaker 1

But she softens me. And sometimes it gets difficult for me to discern when I'm supposed to, quote, unquote, put my foot down. Or is this a time where I'm supposed to be a lot softer? I don't know, man. Sometimes I feel like I'm a little too soft.

And so I look back on decisions I should have made that would have pushed her, challenged her, but would have been right and good for her development and her love for Christ.

And those are the things that I've been, that I'm struggling with when it comes to leadership, because I'm naturally a little heavy handed.

Speaker 4

He's telling the truth. Like, he's way more of a put-your-foot-down leader. Charges. We was talking before this. It's like just about leadership qualities. And he definitely got more of that, like, move us forward type of thing.

And I can absolutely say, but when it comes to Ayri, so much of that is like, softer. I think that's a really good balance for his personality. I actually feel the opposite. Like, I feel like I could be more passive at times in my natural leadership. But because of my love for Brittany, I have more of a, nah, we gotta go here.

A lot of that I will genuinely say is. And this is, I think, one of the things that I learned so much from the people who led me, the men who led me: talk to God about them before you talk to them about themselves. That's good, because what that does is it helps me to ring out how much of my quote-unquote leading her is for the sake of my own kingdom, and how much am I leading her for the sake of her flourishing.

One of the things I'm always asking myself is, at the end of this decision, am I going to see her holy or am I going to see her happy? If I shoot for her holiness, I know happiness will follow. But if I'm only shooting for her happiness, then the holiness might not be there, and the happiness will quickly wear off. Then I'll have to seek another thrill to get her happy again.

So keeping holiness in front of us, man, I think that's been a huge part of, I think, a blessing of our relationship. It's not always fun in those moments, but it also helps her to see, like, this ain't for recap's sake. This is really for the benefit of us, but also her and her flourishing and blossoming.

Speaker 3

Have there been times you did that poorly?

Speaker 4

For the first, let's see, five years, four years at least. There was so much in my kingdom.

Speaker 3

What did that look like? What do you mean?

Speaker 4

And you know, you can mask it with. Especially if you know the Bible pretty well, you can mask anything. And so a lot of it, they was like, hey, I think it's really important that you support me in going out with the fellas so that I can grow my walk with the Lord. But really that was just me trying to selfishly get some time out. It had nothing really to do with the kingdom of God. It had nothing to do with really me growing in the faith. It was just like I wanted to get my own time. Like, it was really selfish at the end of the day.

But I ain't want to check that part of my heart. So I can mask it in community, I can mask it in a lot of different things. And I did a lot of that putting pressure on her to support me in something like that, in biblical language. And I've had to repent so much of that.

Be careful, like really ask the Lord the harder questions of your heart and anything you're calling your wife to. Because we can, we can say all day long, this is for the sake of the kingdom and all of that, but a lot of times it's just for our own benefit.

Speaker 1

So along those lines. With me, it's a little different because I'm a vision guy and I'm a conviction-based guy. So if I believe we are supposed to go this way, I believe it. I've done all the work, I've prayed about it, I've thought through it, I've read all the scripture about it. I believe this.

But when it's time for me to actually lead us this way, now she softens me. And so I'm like, how do I actually lead us this way when I know this won't make her happy? So that's my issue.

Oh, my goodness. I get it wrong a lot because I want to see her happy.

Speaker 3

When you get it wrong. What's it look like? Is she.

Speaker 1

It looks probably like temporary happiness. And then something comes back to bite us. It can be financial struggles or something, or we notice the. Just a little less of the spirit moving.

We're not as focused and intentional about seeking the Lord. And when I start to see those things, I can a lot of times say it's because of that decision.

Speaker 3

Really?

Speaker 1

Yeah. We wasn't supposed to go there or do this or we should have done the opposite. And.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And it kills me now.

Speaker 3

Are your wives, when you're leading in that way, are their voices loud? Are they like, "Hey, I disagree. I don't think you're right."

Or do they keep it quiet? What do they do when they don't think your decision and leading is the way God wants your family to go?

Speaker 4

It's loud but quiet, though.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4

Like, my wife, because all she got to say to me is like, and this is what the Lord is saying. And that question alone will check me. Like, wait, did I pray about this? Did I seek the Lord on this?

And then they're sometimes keeping stuff copacetic, like, just making sure that, you know, stuff is moving smoothly. Yeah, I'll make the soft decision, too. But I did seek the Lord, and I know this isn't that decision. And she can even feel like, I feel like you're just trying to appease me rather than actually please the Lord. And it could just come out that quick.

And that just, like, is a check to my gut. Like, a real check to my gut, because I think that I'm, like, going to make her happier in this. And she's so after holiness that she's like, don't do that for me. Like, I don't want that in my life.

And for Brit, it literally is usually one statement just, so you prayed. I'm excited. But then if I didn't pray. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't be too excited. Like, it's a literal check to my gut. And so, yeah, it's usually mad quiet, but super loud, louder, because it's so quiet.

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah. Same thing for you.

Speaker 1

Yeah, she's more. She used this in the beginning of our marriage. She's like a. I'll go kicking and screaming a lot of times. So if it's a good time, she's all for it. She loves that. And then if something comes back and bites us or I get the courage to tell her we should have done this, whatever, she's like, "Why didn't you just say that?"

It's like, I'm gonna follow you. Like, that's non-negotiable. I'm gonna follow you. I'll let you know that from the beginning. That's not a problem. And I'm like, why did I think it was a problem? It's not a problem with her. She wants to follow me, but sometimes I just chicken out, you know what I mean?

It's like, I wanted you to have a good time. You said you wanted to go to Disney or you wanted to have a good time, whatever. So, like, we just did that. But she'll let me know, like, "No, you can actually lead me and I will follow." And she has to remind me of that so many times.

Speaker 4

So can I get mad practical real quick? Like, so this is real practical. So, like, we can be chilling at night. Both of us are kind of bored with the TV.

So happiness looks like, well, let's try a different movie. Holiness looks like, man, maybe the Lord is making us kind of, I don't know, disappointed with what we're watching right now to lead us in a different direction. Like, maybe let's spend some time in prayer or like, let's just talk about the scriptures for a little bit. Or let's talk about the last book you just read. And it'll be a mad encouraging conversation.

Now the easier thing and the happier thing, which is, let's keep trying Netflix, the holy thing is to have this deeper conversation or prayer or Scripture or something like that. Every time we've decided the holier thing, we both end up happier. And, you know, it usually leads to, you know what I mean, some good old intimacy.

Speaker 1

A happy time.

Speaker 4

A happy time.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 4

I appreciate it. Thanks for saving. Thanks for saving me, bro.

Speaker 3

One of the reasons we're talking about this is when you guys were in here months ago, there was a look on your wives' faces of joy and contentment when they talked about this word submission, which you don't often see with women, even Christian women in the church. It's the S word, you know, submission. And your wives seemed to be so, you know, as you think about what that means for us as men as well, but especially for women.

Because, you know, when I speak at churches to men, it's funny when you say, you know, do you know what the Bible commands women to do in scripture? They know one verse in the Bible, Ephesians 5:22. They do not know that 23 and 24 are all to the men. There are a lot more written to us than men. Yeah, yeah, for real. There's one to her, and that's the only one they know. And they think they also know what it means. You know, she's supposed to.

So I want to ask you guys, what do you think "wives submit to your husbands" looks like? What's it mean? Why are your wives thriving when they hear that word rather than what often is the response?

Speaker 1

It's so fundamental to me. It's fundamental to just being a human being.

Speaker 4

There we go, bro.

Speaker 1

We are created in the image of God. We are prophet, priest, king, and God made a woman to be a helper. So it's really, to me, it's like that simple. Like, it's so foundational. Her job is to help this man be the priest he is supposed to be. He cannot be what he's supposed to be without her. So therefore, he must love her and cherish her, but she must submit to him.

We submit to. Let's take the temple. Everyone submits to the high priest. It's his job to go into the holy of holies. We hear from him, we follow him. Everyone is submitting to him. Well, in the home, I'm the priest. And so her job is to submit to the priest.

We all submit to our pastors. We all submit to our leaders, our bosses. We submit to the government. We submit to leadership. That's just the natural order. And so I think my wife intuitively gets that.

Speaker 4

That's true.

Speaker 1

But she also had a wonderful example in her home with her father and her mother. Her father's a pastor of a church. She's seen her mother submit to him and the difficulties in that because she's dealing with, obviously, a human being.

But I think my wife and I, when we talk about it, we really do try to simplify it. It's not as big a deal or as scary a thing that people make it to be. Now, part of that is kind of easy for you to say type of thing. But when she talks about it, she points out the first Peter passage, chapter three, but it says, "without fear" is the part that a lot of people miss. She kind of hones in on that. I'm sure she probably talked about that earlier. She tries to, meaning, submit without fear. I forgot the exact way it was said, but I know she goes in on that passage because that was like a light bulb for her.

So I don't think it has to be this really scary thing. Given we live in a broken world, given I'm a broken man and I'm gonna make mistakes, then there's gonna be a level of fear that she has to work through in submitting to me, but she is willing to work through that. She would relate it to the joy set before, like Christ, who endured the cross, so he entrusted Himself. He submitted himself to the Father for the joy before.

And so my wife is entrusting herself to me by submitting to Christ and submitting to me. So it really doesn't have to be all of that, like a bad word. It really doesn't. We all submit in one way or another.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I tell you, that was rich stuff. And we got more of what we just talked about. We didn't even get into the really good stuff, stuff that's coming tomorrow. So stay tuned for tomorrow.

Speaker 2

Before we're done today, I just want to remind our listeners we know life is full of challenges and families today need biblical truth more than ever. Isn't that true?

Speaker 3

That is true.

Speaker 2

And as a Family Life partner, your monthly gift helps bring the truth into homes every single day through podcasts, events and resources.

Speaker 3

So let's make a lasting difference together. Become a partner today. Just go to familylifetoday.com and click the donate button.

Speaker 2

Family Life today is a donor supported ministry, a Family Life a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.