FamilyLife Today®

Dane Ortlund: The reason He raised Lazarus was as a foreshadowing of His own resurrection and to show, I believe, the contrast between them. Because when Jesus was raised, it was not like Lazarus. It was to an immortal existence. It was to the life of the age to come.

Because when Jesus walked out of His tomb, He was the first instance of what the three of us and every listener in Christ is going to experience. If He was raised, we will be, not with a Lazarus body back to mortal existence, but to an immortal existence.

Dave Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today®, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

So, today we're going to talk again with Dane Ortlund about being Finally Home.

Dave Wilson: The hope of heaven. That's what we're talking about. I can't think of a better person to talk about heaven than Dane because not only is he going to be biblically sound, he's going to give you an excitement and joy about heaven that you may not have ever experienced.

Ann Wilson: I feel like my mind was kind of blown talking about some of these things, and you're going to love this too.

Dane Ortlund: In Genesis 2, God put Adam in Eden to work and keep it. He gave him a job. In the book, I listed out 25 jobs that will go away and 25 that will not.

Guest (Male): Oh good. Let's talk about some of those.

Guest (Male): All right, I'm curious what you all think about this one.

Dane Ortlund: As I understand it, work is good. It's corrupt, thorns and thistles will come, and our work has futility shot through it, but work itself is inherently good. It's a gift.

As I understand it, in the New Earth, every job that is a result of or connected to the fall goes away. Law, medicine, insurance, everything like this. I mean, many of our major industries today are going to melt away, and those are good things.

Ann Wilson: Transportation? That would be interesting to know, wouldn't it?

Dane Ortlund: I don't know. I do think technology comes into the New Earth because of that verse right at the end of Revelation 21 where it says the kings of the earth bring their glory into the New Earth. I take that to mean the thousands of years of culture and technology built up in a rinsed-clean, not fallen way, come into the new heavens and the New Earth. That's how I understand it.

But then the jobs that will continue are those that are not Genesis 3 connected, but Genesis 1 and 2. Chefs, artists, florists, fishing guides. I love to fish, so I'm going fishing this afternoon. Everything that is a matter of cultivating and enjoying this world that is not connected to the fall. So, we will be working in a non-futile way. I welcome your thoughts. Do I have some weird theology going here?

Dave Wilson: No, I love talking about this. I want to know, is there going to be sports?

Ann Wilson: I knew you were going to say that.

Dave Wilson: Competition? I think there is, don't you?

Ann Wilson: Without sin.

Dave Wilson: Without sin. Is the golf joke true? The guy dies and says, "I want to know if there's golf in heaven. Let me know somehow." The guy wires back and goes, "There's golf in heaven." He goes, "Really?" "That's the good news. Bad news is you're in our foursome tomorrow."

Dane Ortlund: Well, the way I understand it is that's part of the kings bringing their glory into the New Earth. Does that mean that we'll never miss an easy golf putt? No, of course we will. Here's what it means: you miss that easy putt, and because we are sinless, it doesn't bother you a bit. You are almost happy because your opponent is now going to beat you, because you're rejoicing in their joy.

Ann Wilson: That's what I mean. The competition in us that's bad will be gone, but we could still be competitive.

Dane Ortlund: Absolutely. But you're right, we'll rejoice even if we win or lose, which sounds insane. Look at how happy you are that you think there's sports. What were you thinking you want to do in the New Earth, Dave?

Dave Wilson: I want to eagle a par five. That's what I'd like to do. So many people in the church don't understand this. They do not realize heaven is heaven on earth. We will work, we will play. The radiance of the Son of God will be so illuminating. There will be a sense of joy and peace we've never experienced in our life. But it won't be a boring harp-singing session.

Dane Ortlund: We're going to be working. Because we are not thinking rightly about heaven, we view this short little fallen life as our one shot to enjoy golf and fishing and basketball. Dave, what's something that you would love to do in the New Earth?

Ann Wilson: For me, it's people. Togetherness. This is what I think about. I want to see all the Bible stories played out in real time. I want to see what really happened. So when you're talking about technology, will there be a way that we actually see the Red Sea parted? I'm curious to know.

And the other thing is I'm really excited about the earth that will not be fallen. The beauty of the animals that we get to even hang out with. All of that's going to be amazing.

Dave Wilson: Did you ever look at John Burke's *Imagine Heaven*? He's a pastor down in Austin. He studied near-death experiences of real people that doctors say they really did have a near-death experience, and compared their stories to what the Bible says about heaven. He asks if there is congruence.

I tell you what, you put that book down, and whether you believe this is true or not, you want to go there. He was saying they're talking about the colors of the earth being so vivid. Nobody wants to come back here. They're like, "I want to stay dead because it's unbelievable."

Ann Wilson: And I think the older we get, we feel a little closer to heaven because more of the people that we have loved are there. So, that's what I mean by people. To be with my people, to hang out with them, to hear their stories, to laugh without having the distress. That's remarkable.

Dane Ortlund: No self-consciousness, completely free. Let's enjoy this for a minute. I think we view retirement as, "I'm going to work for several decades, then I've got a decade or two to be happy, then I'll be in heaven in an eternal church service forever." It's like pining after that retirement back there.

Actually, everything we're longing for to enjoy when we're retired, we will enjoy in the New Earth, except we'll be in an eternal youthfulness. We are liberated from needing to grasp after what we long for in this life. We don't need to do that. We just enjoy this life as a gift, knowing it's here today and gone tomorrow, but we will have all of our earthly longings met in that New Earth. That's a very liberating thing to know.

I have no problem with people retiring. I just think we do need to understand we are made to love and give. So if someone retires from paid employment, terrific. But we will become miserable if we turn our retirement into purely self-focus.

To give it to your grandkids, to your kids, to give your time and energy, it doesn't matter if you're paid or not at that point. But we are actually happiest in self-giving love. That's what we were built for. Actually, retirement creates the greatest opportunity to do that.

Ann Wilson: And I think because we've talked to a lot of people that have retired, they've just lost their identity and lost their purpose. But as long as you have breath, you should be looking for why you're still here. And as you said, we're still here to impact and love people. That never ends. And ministry, the gospel, we get to always share that.

Dave Wilson: We meet a ton of couples who say FamilyLife Today® helped them when they needed it the most. And that's what being a FamilyLife partner is all about: helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.

Ann Wilson: And we'd love for you to join us. So click the donate button at FamilyLifeToday.com and become a part of it today.

Dave Wilson: Do you feel, since you wrote the book, people want to talk about heaven? Do they have an interest? I remember doing this once in thirty years of preaching at my church. I was doing a sermon on heaven and I decided to bring a casket on stage. I preached a whole sermon in front of this casket because I want everybody to think about this: this is where we're headed. We're all going to be in one of these. You should have seen the room when they came in and they saw a casket up there. They were like, "What is happening? Are you doing a funeral?" I'm like, "I'm doing your funeral. We're all going to be there." I just want people to think this is real. It could happen today, tomorrow, or twenty years from now, but it's going to happen. Then what happens? Do you feel like this is on people's minds?

Dane Ortlund: Very much. You mentioned that we can often have a fear of what's coming. I think there's a lot of fear wrapped around what is coming, both the process of dying and death. And I think there's a lot of healthy curiosity.

I would say we don't teach much about it in our local churches. We don't have as many books on it, but the thinkers of past generations did. Part of that perhaps is because they had much higher mortality at a younger age. You might wake up with a fever on a Tuesday and you're dead that weekend. There's no antibiotics.

On the other hand, we today have ways of dying that they didn't have: cars and planes and junk food that rots us from the inside out. In any generation, I might be sitting, eating lunch alone one minute and two minutes later standing before the Lord Jesus Christ without a body. My body back on earth with a large green grape lodged neatly in my windpipe. Anything might take us out.

Life is precarious. We're under God's hand, but life is precarious at a human level. So yes, Dave, I strongly think people want to know what it's going to be like and what's coming.

Dave Wilson: And that's why you do this as well as I do when you do a funeral. You have a captive audience that you get to talk about eternity.

Dane Ortlund: This might be weird, but I like funerals much more than weddings. Because at weddings, everyone is already happy, so it's not a fertile environment to actually piercingly talk to the soul, to the heart. And also, I'm always afraid I'm going to screw something up when I'm doing a wedding. But at funerals, eternity is staring us in the face. They know that I will be in that place one time, and I have no idea when. Every single one of us will die, and so you're captive to every word.

We are powering down from about age 28 on. We call it aging, but we're dying. Our bodies with time, I'm 47, I'm dying. I might be dead at 87, but I am inexorably on that treadmill towards that. So yes, it's good, it's not morbid, it is healthy to ponder our mortality and what is coming.

Ann Wilson: We recently had your parents on. How old are your mom and dad now?

Dane Ortlund: About 76.

Ann Wilson: Do they talk about that as they get closer and older?

Dane Ortlund: Yes. I remember talking with my dad. He has said this to me a couple times recently on the phone. My hourglass only has a little bit of sand left. He used an image like that. I've got a little bit of tread left on the wheel, I'm in the last lap here, I'm in the winter of my life. My dad and mom, feeling and knowing that acutely, they are giving themselves away. They're very purposeful.

Dave Wilson: They feel it. Your parents know, we feel it. There's no question the body starts. I'm getting a new knee in a few months. I look forward to someday having the body I had when I was 20. We go out about every 10 years and get a new car, no problem. You can't go do that with your liver or your knee. We get one body and because of the fall, it is frightfully short, this life.

Ann Wilson: Let's switch gears a little bit and go to a chapter called "The House of the Lord." It's not something we really think about, but I thought this was fascinating. Psalm 23:6, "I shall dwell in the house of the Lord forever." We've all heard that, we know that. But when you have that word "forever," what house are we talking about here?

Dane Ortlund: Just tell me to shut up if I go on too long here. Nerd out on us. The house in biblical language is the temple. Tabernacle first, then temple. They were wandering around in the tabernacle that the priests and Levites would pack up and move around. A tent. And then eventually Solomon builds the temple about a thousand years before Jesus comes. Think RV, home. Tabernacle, temple. A tabernacle is a temple, it's just portable.

What was the tabernacle? What was the temple? It was where holy God and unholy humanity connect. It's where the immortal and the mortal, the sacred and the profane, the perfect and the imperfect, the divine and the human get together again the way they did in Eden.

Eden was the first temple. A little plot of land, a little garden, and God told Adam, "Work it and keep it." Now, those are kind of bland English words, but they're the same two Hebrew words that the priests are told to do with the tabernacle later in the Old Testament. Adam was the first priest. He had perfect communion with God and was meant to facilitate it for others, and his calling was to spread God's glory and make the entire planet earth Eden. A temple. A place where God and humanity dwelt in perfect harmony.

Now Adam and Eve sinned, God withdrew, and a wall went up. What is the rest of the Bible? From one perspective, it is simply a temple recovery project. The tabernacle had a bright, beautiful blue sky. It had a lampstand that looked like a flourishing tree. Why? It's the tree of life. If you walked into the inside of the tabernacle, you'd be blown away at the beauty of it. Why? It was Eden. It was a little Garden of Eden that they'd pack up and carry around. When you go into the tabernacle, you're meeting with God, you're doing what Adam and Eve got to do before they fell.

And then the temple, same thing. And then the temple gets destroyed four or five hundred years before Jesus comes. And then it gets rebuilt seventy years later. Now the old men in the book of Ezra, the old men who see the new temple but they saw what Solomon's temple looked like, they cry because it's so pathetic compared to the first. And then you get to Ezekiel and the last nine chapters of Ezekiel are picturing this coming temple with a river flowing out of it and it's lush and luxurious. It's the Garden of Eden recovered.

Jesus shows up. And John 1 says, "The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." And then He says in the next chapter, John 2, "Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it in three days." Jesus was what Ezekiel was prophesying. Jesus was the temple in the sense that He was where the immortal and the mortal can connect yet again.

The old temple, if you're a leper or you're sick or you're unclean, that temple says get out. Jesus, the new temple, walks around, and if you're a leper or if you're unclean, He says get over here. In the Old Testament, clean plus unclean equals unclean. If I'm a leper and I touch Jesus, He's clean and I'm clean. I don't make Him unclean, He makes me clean.

Then in Ephesians 2, Paul says now hang on a minute. You all, Jesus is the cornerstone of the temple, you all are living stones being built up. When you get united to Jesus Christ, we are part of the temple. What does that mean? It means we now have that full, perfect access that Adam had before the fall, that the high priest had just once a year.

And so you get to the end of the Bible, book of Revelation, and it says, "And I saw no temple." Why not? Because what Adam was supposed to do has happened. The whole planet earth has become a temple where the immortal and the mortal, the divine and the human are now connected in perfect fellowship because there's no more sin. So that's the house of the Lord. I can't wait to get there.

Ann Wilson: I've never even heard of that or thought about that.

Dave Wilson: I'm playing that the next time I talk about heaven at my church. "Here's Dane talking about the house of the Lord." I mean, seriously, you connected so many dots that people never really understand. The more you talk, the more excited I get.

Dane Ortlund: We go through life with a sense of being alienated or outside. The temple theme touches that emotionally and psychologically, not just theologically. You're now in. You're the ultimate insider. You are in. It's what we all long for, we all hope for.

And we're afraid, I think everybody has a sense there's something broken in me. The Bible says it's sin. But we take that brokenness and we're afraid to get near God because He's holy and we're afraid His judgment will... we are the leper. He makes us clean. So we run away when we should run to Him. And that's heaven forever.

Ann Wilson: Talk about resurrection.

Dave Wilson: I wish he'd get excited about some of this stuff, don't you? Let's do John's Gospel. Lazarus.

Dane Ortlund: Lazarus gets raised from the dead, right? It's exactly halfway through John. Jesus is told that Lazarus has died. He says, "Okay, I'm going to go help you guys out." Travels to see him, and Mary and Martha greet Him and say, "You could have saved him. You could have been here and saved Lazarus from dying."

First of all, it's very poignant because when Jesus... it doesn't say He wept when He heard that Lazarus had died. The text says when He saw the others weeping, He began to weep. Now, He knows He's about to raise this guy and turn sorrow into joy, but He is so touched, He's in such emotional solidarity with His friends, He starts crying. So beautiful.

He raises Lazarus. He says, "Lazarus, wake up!" Why does He use Lazarus's name? One theologian speculates because if He hadn't used Lazarus's name, all of the dead people would have. Such is the power of Christ's voice. So He says, "No, just Lazarus. The rest of you, it's coming. For now, just Lazarus. Wake up, rise." He comes out. He is raised back to the kind of life he had, back to the kind of body he had. If he had back pain right as he died, he woke back up into that. In other words, he was raised to mortal, not immortal existence.

The reason He raised Lazarus was as a foreshadowing of His own resurrection and to show the contrast between them. Because when Jesus was raised, it was not like Lazarus. It was to an immortal existence. It was to the life of the age to come.

Richard Gaffin is a theologian. He puts it this way: if the Apostle Paul were to walk into a theology conference that's talking about last things, eschatology, and there's a panel discussion going on, and Paul walks in and he says, "Hey, can I join you guys at the mics?" and everyone says, "Sure, let's do some Q&A with the Apostle Paul." And so someone says, "Hey Paul, when is the final end-time resurrection of the dead going to happen? When's it going to happen?" Gaffin rightly says that what Paul would say is, "It's already begun."

Because when Jesus walked out of His tomb, He was the first instance of what the three of us and every listener in Christ is going to experience. The Bible uses the word first fruits. What is that? Jesus in His risen state is the first fruits. That means the first in-gathering of one harvest. If He was raised, we will be, not with a Lazarus body back to mortal existence, but to an immortal existence.

So, this is pretty great. I'm going to have a resurrected stomach, taste buds, brain, muscle. Do I get hair? Every bald guy's like, "Do I get hair?"

Dave Wilson: Another great day with Dane Ortlund. Again, his book is called *Finally Home: The Christian Hope of Heaven*. If you don't have a hope for heaven after listening to these last two days, you're going to have one if you pick up his book.

Dave Wilson: Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the link in the show notes and get it, and get a perspective on heaven you may have never had before. It's going to bring you incredible hope. I want to be stronger in my faith, I know you do as well. We have a site to help you do that. It's FamilyLifeToday.com/StrongerFaith. We put some of our best materials there, best resources. We can help you go there and get help now.

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