FamilyLife Today®

Justin Davis: What we want is we want level 10 intimacy, but we haven't done the level 2 work. Being intentional, going out on date nights, having some patterns in your marriage to where you begin to say, "I'm feeling really insecure about sharing this with you, but I'm going to."

Dave Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. Wow, this has been like a rollercoaster of agony, of hope, of redemption, of God's grace.

Dave Wilson: The amazing thing is this story could have gone so badly. It could have ended tragically, and yet God meets them and you get to hear the rest of Justin and Trisha Davis' story today.

Ann Wilson: And their book, I'm just going to say it right off the top so some of you might want to search it, it's called "One Choice Away From Change: Break the Cycles That Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back." Let's get into our conversation with Trisha and Justin.

Trisha, let me ask you this. I know some women are probably watching this like, "Are you crazy? You have no idea if he's going to go back to that or hide again and you forgave him." What would you say to those people that are pushing back on this grace and forgiveness story?

Trisha Davis: I get it. I think it's a very smart and wise question to ask, and I think that's a great place to start. You asked what's the one choice, and the first choice is acknowledging the wound, is naming: "This is what you just said. How do you do that?" Even though it's a question, it's naming the pain.

That's something that we didn't know to do. We were arguing about the same things expecting different results. To do the same thing over and over again and expect different results is insanity. You just get so tired of the grind that you just think that you know what the pain is, but really it takes work to name. "I feel distance. I feel shame. I feel fearful."

When we start naming wounds, that first choice, that's where we begin to break the cycle rather than living from a place of fear or from shame. We actually name it to say, "Okay, what are my choices to do from it?" When we don't embrace it or name it, then we just behave out of it. When we behave out of it, then we have reactions. Some of us try to control, others of us just retreat. We don't want to have community, especially with betrayal trauma.

There's something about betrayal trauma that goes beyond being betrayed by somebody. There's another person involved, and that's you where you feel like you can't even trust yourself. "How did I miss this?" The layers of that begin really another way to say it is surrender. It's surrendering and saying, "Okay, this is my reality." It sounds so elementary, but it's life-changing.

Dave Wilson: Now, Justin, what was yours? When you named it, what was your pain?

Justin Davis: I think the first one was just insecurity. That insecurity, that fear of being rejected, that fear of not being loved, of being abandoned. I didn't even know why I had that, but from the time I was a little kid, I had this fear of being left in a store by my parents. There was this built-in abandonment issue that I had that I wanted to try to please people.

Being a pastor is perfect because you have people come up and say, "Great message, that was powerful." You have people reinforcing their belief in you every single week. There was almost this dopamine hit that I got. I was a hero at church and I was a dog at home. If she doesn't think I'm a hero, she doesn't think I'm amazing, then she's going to leave me, she's going to abandon me. You begin to operate out of that. I do want to say too, I think it's important for the person that is listening to realize forgiveness is free and trust is earned. Those are two different conversations.

Dave Wilson: Explain that.

Trisha Davis: Well, that's what I was going to say. If I was going to name mine, mine was unforgiveness. When I started getting into the weeds of my story, I realized that I had a problem with unforgiveness way before the affair. My parents were married for 25 years and a year into our marriage, my dad had come out with affairs. This rose-colored glasses now for my family, even though we had housing insecurity, all of these different things. Maybe it's middle child syndrome, peacemaker, all of it.

But when that happened, it was the first time where betrayal trauma had hit my heart and my dad wasn't trustworthy and I didn't know what to do with it. Forgiveness felt like a "get out of jail free" card. So I had withheld my forgiveness not knowing that that's living from a place of bitterness. Bitterness always lends itself to resentment and resentment is like a cancer; it affects all your relationships. Ten years into marriage, I had been living stiff-armed because of what my dad did without even realizing the connection.

Dave Wilson: These things aren't malicious and sometimes they're not even conscious.

Justin Davis: They're an operating system that we adopt to feel security in insecure attachments.

Trisha Davis: To name I have unforgiveness is fine, but then what is forgiveness? A lot of people equate forgiveness with trust. But forgiveness is free, trust is earned. We feel like if we offer forgiveness, that means we don't have to have boundaries. But boundaries are the most lavish act of love you can have for someone because you're saying, "I am so hurt by you, but I care enough about you that I'm going to put work into healthy boundaries. If I didn't care for you, I would just peace out and be like, 'I'm out.'"

Dave Wilson: Justin, as a pastor or just anyone, do you have boundaries around women that you exercise personally and also for your marriage?

Justin Davis: Absolutely. I think there were boundaries in place before the affair. "I'm not going to go on an elevator with a woman. I'm not going to be alone in an office with a woman." Those things functionally need to be in place. I think where there are greater boundaries that is even more freedom is Trisha and I have honest conversations about my heart. We have honest conversations about temptation, how we're wired, and what needs each of us have.

Dave Wilson: Is this something that you guys in terms of transparency and vulnerability and communication, is this a weekly thing now? Every couple drifts toward isolation and it's natural. It isn't like we try to, it just happens. If you don't do something, you will drift. It's all about how I work for oneness and then our dream is from isolation to oneness to impact, which God wants to use with you guys. How do you stay one, connected, tight, no hiddenness, no secrets on a daily, weekly basis in a busy world with kids and all that?

Trisha Davis: A language that we use, a framework we use is, "What's mine to own, what's yours to own, and what's ours to own?" Not everything is about us as a couple. In fact, most of what we are is individual and then how it affects us as a couple. Sometimes it's bringing that to each other and being able to hold space to not take personally what feels personal. "I was really grumpy with you. It wasn't towards you." Some of that is owning what we need to own in the moments and it not being bigger than it needs to be.

Ann Wilson: Dave and I were driving into the studio today and I've got this cold I've had and I'm mad at him because he gave it to me.

Dave Wilson: She really thinks I gave it to her intentionally.

Ann Wilson: But I did say, he's like, "What's up? You're super quiet." I can tell I just don't have the energy. To just say to a spouse, "This isn't about you or us. I'm just sick." But she did say it was about me because she said, "I sucked off your straw at the movie last week." I'm like, "You were around me two weeks while I was sick. I don't think it was the straw." I was really only kidding, but I think those little things in the past could be a huge thing where you start attacking each other.

Trisha Davis: You named it and you asked about it. A lot of couples where they drift is, "I'm just not going to ask because she's going to say this and I'm going to say this and it's going to be a fight, so it's easier not to." What we've found is we would rather have a difficult conversation than to put off a conversation that's going to be even more difficult later.

Justin Davis: Exactly. That took five minutes for us. "I'm sick, it's not about you," and he's like, "Okay." Seeing those things as opportunities to grow rather than things to avoid or thinking, "This is going to reflect badly on our relationship." No, it actually is a reflection of a healthy relationship.

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Dave Wilson: How do you help us break the cycles?

Justin Davis: I think the first thing is rather than looking at what the relationship isn't, look at what it is. Trisha and I have had enough reps to where there's been intentional investment in our relationship from both sides that we can have these conversations that are level 2 conversations. They're not level 2 conversations that we're having at a level 8 intensity.

I think what we want is we want level 10 intimacy, but we haven't done the level 2 work. Being intentional, going out on date nights, having some patterns in your marriage to where you begin to say, "I'm feeling really insecure about sharing this with you, but I'm going to." You're quantifying how you're feeling before you're just going, "You're so quiet." That's not going to make you talk. Slamming someone for their demeanor isn't going to help them have a better demeanor.

"I notice you're quiet. Is there something going on that I can help with?" There's questions that you can ask to say, "Hey, I know that I was really short with you last night. Here's what's really going on. I had a bad day at work. My boss said something to me that really set me off for the rest of the evening. It wasn't about you or the kids." Those little vulnerabilities help you build up to larger vulnerabilities.

Trisha Davis: This is going to be kind of a rough statement, but it's being willing to do the work that your spouse isn't doing. When we enter that conversation of "when you do then I will," then we just won't show up. I'm going to ask the question not to win the argument. Justin says this all the time, "You can win the argument but lose their heart." I'm going to ask because I care about them.

That's really hard when you're breaking the cycle. You guys gave a perfect example. If the history of her being mad at you or the history of you not asking about how she feels and then that scenario happens, well, that changes that scenario. "Oh, he's going to ask me now." It begins breaking the cycle of recognizing why am I asking and then what am I believing about them?

Justin just said that. You asked her, "Hey, you're kind of quiet." Words are powerful. "Kind of quiet. What's going on now? What's going on with you? We gotta go to the studio." That's about him figuring it out so he can feel better so when you get to the studio, you're ready. When you ask, "Hey, you're quiet. What's going on?" that says, "Hey, my motive is because I care about her." I'm going to believe when she responds that her motive is to just share her heart and there's not an underlying "what is mine to own, what is yours to own, what's ours to own." It's the simplest things that keep us.

If you are stuck in a marriage relationship where you know as soon as you ask a question, you can feel it in your body, I would simply say take a deep breath and think to yourself, "Why am I asking this question? What is it that I'm looking for? Is it about them or is it about something I need?" Because if you ask a question and they think it's about them but you just asked it because you need something, you'll always be disappointed. That daily living is we're just honest.

We talk about in the book about how words spoken over us leave messages. As I've done the deep work of my childhood, my main pain message is that I'm stupid. Most days I'm okay with it. Grad school's challenged me in that. But Justin can come into my office and say, "Hey, we have that podcast scheduled at..." He could just be asking because he's processing something and my response is, "Why are you asking me? Do you not think I know my schedule?" You're so triggered. That's not my daily, but you catch me on a bad day. Justin could go right down in that depth with me or he could pause and say, "Hey, what's going on?" Speaking into that.

That's when it's like, "Oh, he's not shaming me for responding. I need to own that I was such a brat and I'm really dude, I'm so sorry." Again, it's like that's where marriage becomes fun that you have this partner to do life with rather than someone you always feel like you have to work against.

Justin Davis: I think there's also this truth that if I know that one of her core wounds is feeling stupid, then it changes how I can approach her, how I can say things to her because I'm aware. I don't want to make her feel that way. That's not my motive. If she knows that my biggest wound is abandonment, then she can phrase things in a way that, "Hey, I'm here. I'm not leaving. We're going to get through this, but I need to know this." It's reassuring because you feel like, "Oh, she's for me." Even though we're going to have this difficult conversation, I'm for her, she's for me.

Dave Wilson: We only have about three minutes left. You have to drop this because everybody listening has got to get this book. They've got to know about your ministry. You're going to want this. It's unbelievable that we go through hard things and I think we think that was it, I've learned my lesson and now God's going to use me and now I'm all good. It's not always like that. We're always uncovering new things.

Justin Davis: One of the reasons why we wrote "One Choice Away From Change," we wrote "Beyond Ordinary" in 2013, it was the story of our marriage. But this book really is about relational and family cycles that if not healed, they get passed down. In 2021, I don't know how else to get into this because I'll just say it, but in 2021 through a number of events that led to ancestry.com, Trisha and I found out within six days of each other that our dads are not our biological dads.

Dave Wilson: You both find this out!

Trisha Davis: But we're not related. I know we only have a few minutes, but we're not related. Mine had a cultural aspect to it of losing my heritage of being Hispanic. I am wired so much like him. We like to work with our hands. We're wired so much alike. I never, ever once thought I wasn't a Lopez until growing up. I'd have people say, "Oh, you're the milkman's daughter." Never. I was like a duck, it just came off.

But now not only was the truth revealed that my essence, my being was a product of an affair. Not only did I lose my Hispanic heritage losing my dad, now my very essence was the product of sin. There was a lot for both of us, and not to wrap it up with a bow, I would say the book obviously we speak into it, but betrayal trauma for me, every single woman in my life of importance had betrayed me. Now everything that I had experienced and found healing from then was still true for me today and it's been hard and it's been messy. That's why we talk about the messy middle.

Justin Davis: We're not minimizing it. I couldn't brush my teeth in front of the mirror. I brushed my teeth in the kitchen for a year because I didn't want to look at myself in the mirror. It was traumatic. Trisha went to a place called Onsite for eight days to try to heal from trauma camp. It's a great place. There were some major, major consequences and major work that we had to do.

Ann Wilson: Wait, you couldn't brush your teeth and look in the mirror after you found out about your dad because your identity was gone?

Justin Davis: It was different than Trish. Trish's secret was hidden from everyone. My dad adopted me when I was two. My mom is my mom, but my mom was pregnant with me when she met my dad. There was this conspiracy from everyone that was older than me. Everyone knew this secret except for me. It messed with me.

But I say all that to say our grandson was born, his name's Zeke. He was born December 12th, 2025. Sitting in my son's house holding him with Trish, I just said to her, "I'm so thankful that we paid all the price that we've had to pay to be here together. We're not alternating visiting Zeke from two different families. We have broken cycles that Zeke will not have to grow up in because we chose to do the hard work of love."

Dave Wilson: And that's what it's all about. It's not even about you or me. It's about that legacy. It could have gone a totally different way, but by God's grace, it didn't. We all run from rock bottom. We don't want to go there. We do anything we can, even sin, to stay away from collapsing our lives. And yet rock bottom is the most beautiful spot where God will meet us. You don't have to go there to meet God there, but when you get there, you'll find He's there.

If you're avoiding rock bottom with a lie and hiding a secret, that secret's going to take you there eventually. Why not? I mean, I'm thinking there's some couples listening and from the minute we started talking, they knew God was saying, "You've got to tell her or tell him." If you don't, it's going to not go well, and if you do, it's not going to go well either, but it's a better choice and I can meet you there and maybe do in you what you've done in you guys. Am I right?

Justin Davis: I think we miss out that the biggest beneficiary to truth is us. We get to live in freedom. We get to live in a right relationship with God. The truth definitely does set us free. That's been the biggest lesson that we've learned along this journey. To be able to be in a marriage and a family now that is just open, completely transparent is a beautiful thing.

Ann Wilson: I'm wondering, could one of you or both of you just pray for our listeners that are just this is just triggering and bringing up so much and they don't know what to do? Could you just pray for them?

Trisha Davis: Heavenly Father, we thank You for this conversation of a lot of hard, a lot of messy. I pray for the person listening right now who maybe is trembling a little bit. Their mind is kind of spinning in all the different realities of what could happen if they shared part of their story.

Lord, I pray for the person who has been wounded and they feel like they don't know life without resentment or bitterness. I pray in this moment in the name of Jesus You would help them release that to You. Not to achieve anything or be anybody, but just to be fully known and fully loved by You, surrendered in their pain.

Lord, I pray for the person who is the wounder that feels like they have choices to be made and they just don't even know where to start. I pray that You would remind them that the ground is level at the foot of the cross, that while we, every single one of us were sinners, You died for us. The grace and the forgiveness and the freedom that they desperately want is what we have all desperately needed and You give it freely.

I pray for the couple maybe listening together and they're just feeling like they don't know what the next right step is. Father, I pray whether it's through this ministry or through a counselor, that You would make it of billboard proportion clear to just take the next brave step to find help, to get honest, and to be reminded that we are not the sum of our choices. We are not the sum of even our relationships. You call us loved and chosen and You call us redeemed. That's how we leave this conversation with our heads held high knowing that we are beloved sons and daughters of Christ. For that, we are grateful. We pray that in Jesus' name. Amen.

Ann Wilson: Amen. If people want to get a hold of your ministry or to you guys, where do they go?

Justin Davis: They can go to justinandtrisha.com.

Ann Wilson: That's easy. Guys, this has been so awesome.

Dave Wilson: If you want to get their book, go to familylifetoday.com and click on the link in the show notes and we will get you "One Choice Away From Change." You can buy it there. I'd get a bunch because this is a book you want to give to a lot of people. Thank you.

Ann Wilson: Thank you guys. Before we're done today, I just want to remind our listeners that we know life is full of challenges and families today need biblical truth more than ever. Isn't that true?

Dave Wilson: That is true. As a FamilyLife partner, your monthly gift helps bring the truth into homes every single day through podcasts, events, and resources. Let's make a lasting difference together. Become a partner today. Just go to familylifetoday.com and click the donate button. FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru Ministry. 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.