FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Is really critical, especially for church dudes who. You go to church and you get points for whether it's serving in a particular ministry or knowing something.

Scripturally, you get points and kudos from other dudes for knowing stuff.

But God's like, I'm not listening to you if you're not listening to her.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So as fellas, then it's like, man, can we start to give points for loving your wife? To create a culture that gives kudos for the dude who loves the best, not who knows the most.

Speaker 3

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 2

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. We got Recap and Ike back with us. They laid some real wisdom on us yesterday. We're going to get some more out of them today, and we're going to hope our wives never hear this.

No, we want our wives to hear this. They're going to be encouraged by what we say. We're talking about, you know, headship, submission, loving our wives as Christ loved the church and how easy that is to do it.

Now, that may be the hardest thing, but the biggest thing and most important thing God's called us to do.

Speaker 1

Can I get mad practical real quick? Like, so this is real practical. So, like, we can be chilling at night. Both of us are kind of bored with the TV.

So happiness looks like, well, let's try a different movie. Holiness looks like, man, maybe the Lord is making us kind of, I don't know, disappointed with what we’re watching right now to lead us in a different direction. Like, maybe let's spend some time in prayer. Or, like, let's just talk about the scripture for a little bit. Or let's talk about the last book you just read, and it'll be a mad, encouraging conversation.

Now, the easier thing and the happier thing would just be, let's keep trying Netflix. The holy thing is to have this deeper conversation or prayer or scripture or something like that.

Every time we've decided the holier thing, we both end up happier. And, you know, it usually leads to, you know what I mean, some good old intimacy.

Speaker 4

A happy time.

Speaker 1

A happy time.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I appreciate it. Thanks for saving me, bro.

Speaker 2

One of the reasons we're talking about this is when you guys were in here months ago, there was a look on your wives' faces of joy and contentment when they talked about this word submission, which you don't often see with women, even Christian women in the church. It's the S word, submission, as you think about what that means for us as men as well, but especially for women.

Because when I speak at churches to men, it's funny when you say, you know, do you know what the Bible commands women to do in Scripture? They know one verse in the Bible, Ephesians 5, 22. They do not know that 23, 24 are all to the men. There are a lot more written to us as men. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

For real.

Speaker 2

There's one to her, and that's the only one they know. And they think they also know what it means, you know, she's supposed to.

So I want to ask you guys, what do you think "wives submit to your husband" looks like? What's it mean?

And why are your wives thriving when they hear that word rather than what often is the response?

Speaker 4

It's so fundamental to me. It's fundamental to just being a human being.

Speaker 1

There we go, bro.

Speaker 4

We are created in the image of God. We are prophet, priest, king, and God made a woman to be a helper. To me, it's like that simple. Her job is to help this man be the priest he is supposed to be. He cannot be what he's supposed to be without her. So therefore, he must love her and cherish her, but she must submit to him.

We submit to. Let's take the temple. Everyone submits to the high priest. It's his job to go into the holy of holies. We hear from him, we follow him. Everyone is submitting to him. Well, in the home, I'm the priest. And so her job is to submit to the priest.

We all submit to our pastors. We all submit to our leaders, our bosses. We submit to the government. We submit to leadership. That's just the natural order. And so I think my wife intuitively gets that.

Speaker 1

That's true.

Speaker 4

But she also had a wonderful example in her home with her father and her mother. My wife and I, when we talk about it, we really do try to simplify it. Like it's not as big a deal or as a scary thing that, you know, people make it to be.

Now, part of that is kind of easy for you to say type of thing, but when she talks about it, she points out the first Peter passage, chapter three. It says, "without fear" is the part that a lot of people miss. She kind of hones in on that. I'm sure she probably talked about that.

Speaker 2

She tries to, meaning, submit without.

Speaker 4

Without fear. I forgot the exact way it was said, but I know she goes in on that passage, because that was like a light bulb for her. So I don't think it has to be this really scary thing. Given we are in a broken world, given I'm a broken man and I'm gonna make mistakes, then there's gonna be a level of fear that she has to work through in submitting to me. But she is willing to work through that.

She would relate it to the joy set before, like Christ gone. And he endured the cross, so he entrusted himself. He submitted himself to the Father for the joy before him. And so my wife is entrusting herself to me by submitting to Christ and submitting to me.

So it really doesn't have to be all of that, like a bad word. It really doesn't. We all submit in one way or another.

Speaker 1

I think it's hard when men don't submit but require submission.

Speaker 4

Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1

Because I think me and you could assume, like, yeah, dudes gotta do the same thing. But we live in such a "your rights" culture that dudes aren't actually used to submitting to authority. And if they get tired of submitting to this authority, like, you know, my dad retired military, so that means he did 20 years of military and he did not enjoy all of that time. Some people enjoy all that time. He did not have all the degrees to his experiences. But my father continued to submit to leadership. That was tough for him a lot of the time, but he did so for 20 years.

Now, you get tired of an authority, you move on to a different authority. You get tired of that authority, you move on. So we're actually not in a culture that's normalizing submission for men. But then we'll go to the Bible, be like, "Ah, I got you though," like to our wives, like, "Yo, you gotta keep this up," even though I'm not doing it anywhere else. I think submission has become a dirtier word because we've basically made it an exclusive word. It's only for wives, it's only for women, when it's never been supposed to be that way.

Obviously, Christ submitted himself. We are supposed to be models of Christ. So yes, the church submits to Christ, but Christ submitted to his Father. We got our wives submitting to us, but who are we submitting to? I mean that obviously theologically from the divine perspective, but also to other dudes. If you don't know what it's like to hear a physical, broken human being tell you no as a grown man, and you just do it just because that authority told you no, then to demand that from your wife—like, to me, that's whack.

I don't know. I could try to clean it up, but that's just whack to me. I think that's, like, mad hypocritical, and it keeps you from a perspective that you don't even know what that's like. You're demanding something out of her that you have no empathy for her in.

Speaker 4

Yeah. You're refusing to have empathy.

Speaker 1

You're refusing to have empathy. That's.

Speaker 2

Well, are you, like, saying if you're gonna ask and hope that your wife submits to you?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

You want to talk about leadership?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

You should, as a husband, lead in submission.

Speaker 1

Yep.

Speaker 2

There you go. To the authority is above you and the ultimate authority, Jesus. Like, that's leadership. You submit first. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1

Without a doubt, yeah. My wife says two things to me all the time about why she is willing to follow me with joy. Number one, she says, "I see you on your knees before the Lord, so I can trust the decisions that you're making." Which is why all she has to say to me is, "Oh, I'm glad you prayed about that." Like, I actually didn't. I don't know if I did, actually. I thought it was a good idea. Right?

But then I think the second thing is always that she saw me be led by specifically two men in my life where anything they put on the table, unless I knew it was straight-up unbiblical, even if I didn't understand it, it was a yes. My yes was on the table. And it's not because they didn't make mistakes in that and all of that; it's simply because I'm submitting as unto the Lord. So even if they got it wrong in this new thing that we're supposed to do, I didn't get it wrong in submitting to them because my submission is first unto the Lord.

And so giving her that, she's like, "Oh, yeah." And I've seen you model what this looks like. Even when you didn't agree with decisions, you still put your yes on the table. If you don't know, I keep saying that. If you don't know what it's like as a man to hear another man tell you, "We're going to do this," and you joyfully, with a good attitude—not just in action, but also in attitude—say yes, then to require that from your wife, you're refusing to be empathetic to her. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah. That's good. You talked about first Peter 3 there's a part in there about husbands.

Speaker 1

Yes, sir.

Speaker 2

With your wife.

Speaker 4

Scary part.

Speaker 2

In an understanding way.

Speaker 1

Yep.

Speaker 2

Let's talk. What's that mean?

Speaker 1

Showing honor to the woman. I want to keep going. Showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you in the grace of life so that your prayers may not be hindered. So that it's so much exegete death.

Speaker 4

That's scary, man.

Speaker 2

It can't flesh itself out in your home.

Speaker 4

I will say this. I guess I'm naturally inquisitive and I seek understanding. And so from day one, I really do seek to understand my wife.

But that passage sure does help. Cause I'm afraid of my prayers being hindered.

But I really do, like, I'm very interested in my wife. I want to know her. I want to understand her. I want to know what she's thinking, why she's thinking it. Where does that come from?

Speaker 2

And by the way, that's cherishing your wife. Come on now. She loves that you want that, that. That you dig for that. Am I right?

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Every woman's like, you want to know me. You want to probe and get my heart and my feelings. That is cherishing. There's a lot of guys don't understand it. That is cherishing and nursing your woman.

Speaker 1

Right there, without the doubt.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I think with her in an understanding way, because how do you understand if you don't ask and understand?

Speaker 4

Exactly, exactly. And I think she would say that. That's why she feels like she's flourishing. That's why she can trust me. Her word is like, I trust your time with the Lord. She always says that.

But yeah, I really do try to understand her. And so it's. When I'm not understanding, it's probably more of a lack of empathy. I'm not empathizing because sometimes I get stuck in trying to understand intellectually. And that's not always the proper way to go about understanding.

Jesus can empathize with us because he was incarnate. He became man. He didn't experience every particular sin that we do or whatever or sufferings, but he understands because he can empathize.

Speaker 2

I mean, how do we do that as a man? We can't incarnate ourselves into a woman.

Speaker 4

But you can listen.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's what I wanted to get at.

Speaker 4

Yeah, you gotta listen and listen to their experiences. Women are so much better at articulating their feelings. It's harder for me to get to that point of empathy. But I am trying. I'm sitting there, I listen to my wife talk about her experience. She'll communicate things. I think the best way of communication is through story.

But she'll communicate things through story. But you gotta listen closely. And that's how you incarnate. You get into the story. So you can't become her, but you can get into the story. If you read in a book, the only way you can understand what's going on is if you get into that thing. Now you can look around the scenery and see all of the details.

That's why good writers put so many details. So you gotta get into the story. You gotta be able to really sit there and listen to your wife. She's telling you, but you're not listening.

Speaker 1

And it's like, I think sometimes it's poetry too. Like, I think the tears of our wives speak their own language. And I think it's sometimes difficult because we're unwilling to wait for the translator, which is the spirit of God. Like, I don't think we sit prayerfully in even the tears, because sometimes they don't even have much to say. It's just like brokenness, sadness, grief. And they're able to empathize in some ways that we're not and feel things that we're not.

But I think sometimes living with them yet in an understanding way is just listening to their words, but also listening to their tears and waiting for the translator. Like, where is this coming from? What's the depth of this? Is this a tear that's been produced in a day? Is this a tear that's been produced in a decade? And being able to ask, like, the Lord those hard questions and her those hard questions and being willing to wait for the answer and really decipher the answer.

You know, when Ms. Harriet asked my wife that question about cherishing and nourishing, my wife didn't want to say, like, no, I don't feel cherished. Like, she didn't want to give the words, but her tears said enough. Do we pay attention to when our wives weep? And that's living with them in an understanding way as well.

And then I think that passage is so beautiful because it talks about living with them in an understanding way. I think that's a private sort of honor. But then it says showing honor to them as the weaker vessel. I think that's more of a public honor. You put those two things together, and whether they're inside the home or outside of the home, they feel prized.

And in that, he says, so that your prayers may not be hindered. And I think is really critical, especially for church dudes who go to church and you get points for whether it's serving in a particular ministry or knowing something scripturally. You get points and kudos from other dudes for knowing stuff. But God's like, I'm not listening to you if you're not listening to her.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So as fellas, then it's like, man, can we start to give points for loving your wife? To create a culture that gives kudos for the dude who loves the best, not who knows the most. And when you create a culture like that, I do think it starts to change the emphasis of what we think real Christian maturity is, especially amongst husbands. But I think that's really tough to change and just has to start with somebody.

And I think I will say this about Ike myself. I do feel like that among the two of us, that, like, we will go at each other for that. For not loving our wives or seeing something that don't feel like it's loving towards our wives that will check each other on. Like, that part right? There is no shyness or anything like that. Like, that's not cool. Hey, why that? Like, he'll say this as much like, I hear his voice right now.

Yo, I think if Brittney were to be able to share, I think she would say this because he's paying attention to her even at times where I'm not. And vice versa. Like, I actually think Arie would say this. Cause, like, it's another set of eyes, and it's like. And we're having that conversation privately to be able to check each other privately. Like, yo, go back and ask. And go make sure you're actually listening to your wife. Cause I'm thinking you're missing her right now. I would say that's normal for us.

Speaker 4

But that goes back to the being willing to submit.

Speaker 2

What do you mean? To one another.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

He can challenge me. He can tell me, you know, more than just challenge. He can just flat out tell me.

Speaker 2

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Speaker 3

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Speaker 2

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How important is loving, leading, submitting, honoring, and respecting in a marriage? How important is community around that? Because you guys, you have it. I know a lot of husbands and wives don't. They're in churches, but they're not in community. They go back to their lives and live sort of separate lives. They don't have a brother or a sister.

Speaker 4

That's very dangerous.

Speaker 2

Do you think it's really critical he used the word.

Speaker 4

I was going to say it's dangerous. Dangerous because you. You're showing that you trust yourself that much to get it right. And quite frankly, I don't. I know that I don't know my heart well enough. And so I need recap to see with a different perspective, and if we might argue, we might fight it out. But I heard a different perspective.

And so whatever I came in with is not the same. Even if I feel like I won the argument or whatever, it ain't the same from what I came in. I got a different perspective from someone who loves me and wants the best for my wife.

And we, I mean, we just those type of dudes, though, like, we just. We don't think it's cool at all to be anything other than loving to your wife. Like, if I just. I don't want to hang out with you. You not loving your wife, you're not my friend.

Speaker 1

That's real rap. I don't care.

Speaker 4

I don't care what you bring to the table.

Speaker 1

That's real rap.

Speaker 4

I see the way your wife looks at you. She's not happy with you. So we're not friends. I'm not good with you.

Speaker 2

Now, have you had those conversations, like, right there?

Speaker 1

Yeah, with us? Yeah. But what.

Speaker 4

We do love our wives, but we've had it with other people. For sure.

Speaker 1

Yeah, for sure. Like, there's guys who would. I guess I could put it like this, maybe want a deeper intimacy with us. And it's like the resounding thing from both of us is like, I don't necessarily have a problem with you, but for us to have a depth of relationship, I need to feel that your wife finds joy in your leadership. There is something like that powerful.

And yes, we have had to have those conversations. Some dudes can handle that, and for other dudes, it's tough because if you have not had that muscle flex of submission, a lot of us dudes never have to say that because we're never actually challenged on our perspective at all.

And it's so, so dangerous for the wife because everything they now get is from that one perspective. When that's not challenged and checked, and blind spots exposed and all of that—man, all I could do is say I feel for those women who have husbands who are not in deep community.

And, you know, we've talked about this before. Like, deep community that can challenge and check. Not the kind of community that just says, "Man, you're doing great, man."

Speaker 4

We don't need no cheerleaders.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. Nah, nah, nah. Like that kind of checking challenge in community.

Speaker 2

I mean, do you think husbands and wives who are struggling run away from that kind of community? They're afraid of it. They don't want somebody to get in there and see how bad they're really.

Speaker 4

Well, darkness hates the light.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So that's why they run from it. Cause they don't want things to come to the light.

Speaker 1

I think that that's normally led by dudes.

Speaker 2

What do you mean?

Speaker 4

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1

That lack of community, not wanting expo. I think that's normally led by dudes.

Speaker 4

Because us women will accept it in a heartbeat. They desire it.

Speaker 1

They want it. Come looking on. You can almost see them. Like, come, please look in on our marriage. Like, tell them something. You know what I mean? But because they so want to submit to their husbands, because they're usually godly women, they sit quietly hoping that a dude from the outside will come and grab hold of their husband and begin to lead him and disciple him.

So they just sit quietly, like, hoping for it. Hoping for it, hoping for it. And sadly, sometimes it doesn't come. But most of the time, I've seen ladies are longing for that. Please come invade our relationship. Cause we know we need it.

And it's the dude who's almost like, I got it. I got this, I got this. And it's super, super, super dangerous.

Speaker 4

Yeah, it's really stubborn. It's a hard heart. And I think we all gotta deal with that.

Speaker 1

Without a doubt.

Speaker 4

I don't enjoy.

Speaker 1

Come on, man.

Speaker 4

When my wife say, let's talk to.

Speaker 1

Recap and Brittany about this.

Speaker 4

No, I'm the man. I don't wanna talk to them. You know what I mean? But that's Recap and Brittany. So we gonna talk to them.

I remember our first big fight in our very first year of marriage. And she was suggesting that we talk to you. And I didn't want that at all. Not even close. But we did. You called me out and that changed everything for me.

So now I've become more willing because I know that it's necessary. Like you said, when you got to look another man in the face and they tell you no. Or they say this the way you going or whatever. It humbles you, but it's a meekness. It actually strengthens you.

Speaker 1

Come on, man.

Speaker 4

Because now, you know, you have a brother, now, you know you got some more stability, you got direction, you got a different perspective. It just makes everything better. And your wife feels much more loved.

Speaker 2

Yes. And she feels safe.

Speaker 4

She feels safe.

Speaker 3

Obviously, you hear us talk about marriages and how that foundation affects everything else in our lives.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And one thing we think we'd all agree on is that great marriages don't just happen. That's for sure. They're built with intentionality.

And whether we see it or not, we're either drifting in marriage apart or intentionally moving together toward each other and toward God.

Speaker 3

Okay, so here's the great news for your relationship. Family Life's weekend to remember. Marriage Getaway has events all over the country this spring. And even better right now through Monday, January 26th, registrations are ready for this. 50% off.

Speaker 2

Do you hear that? 50% off. So jump on this chance to intentionally pull closer to each other and to God and get two registrations for the price of one. Now through January 26th at familylifetoday.com that's.

Speaker 3

Familylifetoday.Com what another great day.

Speaker 2

Talking about loving our wives, submission, headship, all that stuff.

And by the way, you may be listening to this as a podcast or on the radio. This is on YouTube. Go to YouTube, search for Family Life Today, and you can watch the whole conversation in one sitting while you work out or while you eat. Hopefully not while you sleep.

Speaker 3

Family Life Today is a donor supported ministry, a Family Life a crew ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.