FamilyLife Today®

Meg Robbins: When I start to look to David to bring me all of my joy or to be the one who sees me first, he's amazing and he does see me really well so much of the time when I let him see what's there. But he isn't Jesus and he wasn't made to meet those places in me the way that the Lord can.

Dave Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I’m Ann Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. I’m excited that David and Meg Robbins are back with us today.

Dave Wilson: We got into some heavy stuff yesterday.

Ann Wilson: We got into some deep stuff that we’re going to get into even more today.

David Robbins: Yes, let’s go.

David Robbins: Yeah, this was just five or six years ago where we were experiencing a significant wedge in our marriage while we were leading FamilyLife. This is a real-time thing.

Meg Robbins: And it was just all these little things that just kept adding up. We had mold in our home pushing us out, we had things happening with our parents, but we were feeling emotionally distant. I said I feel like I keep handing you this rose of, "Here's how I'm really doing." This is a reflection of my heart, I'm trying to let you in.

David Robbins: Which is fragile.

Meg Robbins: Which is fragile, yes. And I'm giving it to you, and in the moment you are so attuned to me, you're listening, you're asking me questions, and I feel like we are connecting. I feel so seen and it's reciprocal.

Then it's like you look at it and you set it over here and just drop it over on the side of the bed. And then later I hand you a new one and same thing. It's like they just fall, there's a whole pile of dead roses over there on the side. You're not picking them back up or putting them in any water, revisiting the rose like, "How is that going?"

David Robbins: I would say that was an appropriate way to communicate because it helped me get a word picture of how she really felt. Was it hard to hear? Absolutely. But you better believe I went the next morning to Ephesians 5 and wrote in the margin "pile of dead roses."

Ann Wilson: Did you really?

David Robbins: I did. Because as a husband, we are to love our wives and to sacrifice for her like Christ did for the church. It was my own moment where I thought that was actually a pretty tender way. That wasn't piling on, that wasn't unleashing. It was a visual picture which every man and woman listening has to go, "Okay, what are my tendencies? Where do I end up saying too many words or where do I hold back?"

You have to know yourself and process with the Lord. I think that's the most important thing. Say what Jesus invites you to share as you process with him, because he's with you in it. Whatever hole you find yourself in or wedge you find in your marriage, Jesus is with you in it and he's a God who restores and reconciles. That's what he does. I was grateful you set that, it ended up sending us on a journey.

Dave Wilson: What did you do, David? Did you go buy a vase?

David Robbins: I wrote it in my journal the next day. Then we actually went to a marriage intensive. We got away for five days and we dove deep with two counselors. That's not an option for everyone, but we asked around and we went and said let's go after this.

I think one of the things I learned processing that was this, and this isn't a trick, this is something that as someone who goes, goes, goes, it actually was given to me in context of my kids, but I feel like it really relates to marriage.

In the movie *Inside Out*, there's that scene where the little girl, the daughter, had run away when they had moved to San Francisco. She was hating life, everything had changed. The movie does a great job of talking about how emotions inside of us go crazy. And she had returned. The dad was all busy at work and the mom was in transition, and they were missing their daughter and what she was processing.

There's this scene where they communicate what's true, they see each other, they have this honest moment and they hug, and then the little girl sighs. That's all it is. It's one little sigh. This mentor of mine actually played the video clip for me to go, "David, you don't stop long enough to just—let's say it's with your wife, with your kids—just, 'Okay, we understand enough right now. We've connected enough for now to go to the next day where we know we're on the same team. Let's move forward.'"

Those were days where we were experiencing this wedge. We had a lot to process as we were getting on the same page and reconciling some things, but there would be multiple moments to where I was prioritizing—it was this visual picture for me to not just come home and serve and do the dishes and do all the things because that's what I as an "activator" was like, "Oh, I'll just do it all." And I'm like, she doesn't want me to do—yeah, she wants me to help some.

But she wants me to connect and pick up the roses and go, "We're holding them and we're not necessarily solving them right now." She wanted me to stop solving for a moment because that's what I can do when I feel behind and the dead roses have piled up. Just, "Okay, you know where we're at." That means a lot. And those were some victory moments of just going, "Okay, I can as a driver and mover and activator go that was forward motion that she knows I get where she's at and I see where we're at together." And those are little micro-moments that really helped us move forward.

Meg Robbins: I feel like I'm more aware of how dependent I need to be on the Lord when it comes to being a mom. Like parenting my kids, it's so much more obvious. I don't know what to do, what do I say? "Lord, open my eyes to see things that I'm not aware of in their heart or in their life."

But I think in our marriage sometimes I can feel like, "Okay, it's been a long time. We know these things." And I forget, "Okay, Lord, I need to be dependent on you. Your Holy Spirit is with me. You will show me even just what am I feeling that I need to communicate, or where are the places where I need a word picture and you can give me what I need in that moment."

Dave Wilson: Has there been any struggle—because we’ve had this and I think it applies to any couple—but ministry and marriage, separating them? You both are in this. And we’ve struggled with that. Ministry becomes our life and it’s like our marriage is in it. There’s been times where Ann and I feel like we’re business partners, not husband and wife. Have you ever struggled with that and how do you navigate that?

David Robbins: The first thing that comes to my mind is that's been our story for a long time. It's like we led together on our very first team when we went to Europe and led a campus team to serve at the University of Pisa, Italy. So that was sorting some things out then, and there were all sorts of ways I missed in that first time, and yet we were chipping away.

Ruth Haley Barton says this, and this whole conversation was bringing this up: "It is by God's grace that we are given the opportunity to face ourselves before the stakes get any higher, to believe what needs to be done in the deep interior places of our life is the most important work that can be done right now."

Because all of life—I think about you with adult kids and now grandkids—it's just multiplying. Life does not get simpler. And yet every moment is this opportunity to go, "Okay, He is preparing us for something, and whatever gets exposed is an opportunity to look at right now to say, 'God, You want to restore this and grow me now.' And You're always growing me for something You have in the future."

I'm still growing. It's still so active, but I look back and go, "Man, Lord, You've chipped away at so many things of hardness in my life, how much I need to be independent." I think that's one of the ways is I still am prone when I'm in a new situation to go self-sufficient and independent.

And this partner in ministry that God has blessed me with—and if you're not in ministry it could be things that you're sharing, passions for your kids or hobbies that you have—I can be so prone to just go on my own and go, "Let me figure this out before I invite you along" or I don't know, so let me just drive ahead instead of the gift of doing it with someone. Meg has amazing discernment gifts.

And yet sometimes I don't bring her in because I'm just like, "I've got to chart the course and Lord's with me, I know." But he's given me a partner to do this with. And sometimes I run ahead and I feel like that's something in this year and a half, we keep right-sizing and checking and going, "Whoops, I've run ahead, let's step back in step together."

Because ultimately that's the invitation, Galatians 5:25, "Just as we live by the Spirit, let's stay in step with the Spirit." Staying in step with the Spirit allows us to go, "Okay, God, let me recognize when I'm out of rhythm with You, get back in step with You," and that is an invitation to get back in step with your spouse. "You're going to convict me first, how I'm out of step," and then that can overflow into, "Okay, hey Meg, I feel like I've run ahead again." He invites you into your own patterns, we grow, but it circles back into very common situations often.

Dave Wilson: I tell you what, one of the best things we ever do for our marriage—get away!

Ann Wilson: That’s true.

Dave Wilson: Focus and work on our relationship. We don’t want to do it, it’s hard to get on the calendar, but when we do, we grow and our marriage gets better.

Ann Wilson: You know what though, you know what’s really goes along well with that getaway is something that’s cheap or that’s on sale.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, we’re talking about the Weekend to Remember, FamilyLife’s marriage getaway, and it’s 40% off right now if you sign up. I tell you don’t want to miss this deal. It’s Friday night through Sunday morning. It’s literally life-changing and legacy-changing for your marriage.

Ann Wilson: And here are the sale dates: March 20th through the 30th, you can get that 40% off. So visit weekendtoremember.com, there’s no promo code needed. Again, that’s weekendtoremember.com to get that sale.

Dave Wilson: Is there a place where you need your husband to understand, "Hey, I’m more than your ministry partner over here, I’m your wife." I think it can happen in a business or whatever—"We’re walking into a business meeting, be my trophy, make me look good," rather than, "I’m your wife, I’m your husband. I want our marriage to be hot, not just our job or our ministry."

Meg Robbins: For sure. And I think on a super practical level, even just because we are in this together, sometimes it can be hard to even have good boundaries of like, "Okay, you can just talk and talk and talk about awesome things." It doesn't even have to be like the frustrating points of things you're trying to figure out.

I remember when I first joined staff with Cru, someone saying to me, "Okay, ministry is a job that never really ends. Everybody's always in process, discipleship is always ongoing, there's always more people who don't know Jesus. So find outlets and activities that have a start and an end, like hobbies or whatever."

We have to find some things that we can do that are completely unrelated to what we do together in ministry. So we like to play tennis or pickleball with our family or going for walks. Sometimes that means we're talking about things—maybe it's the kids, maybe it's ministry—maybe it's we say, "Hey, this, let's just connect with each other." And I think it's like having intentional time to say, "I want to know how you are." Because yeah, I think when you're working together or maybe it's you're running a family business together, it's easy to talk about those things all the time and you just have to carve out time to say, "Hey, let's guard this time." And to me, that makes me feel more—it gets your sigh.

David Robbins: It's the sigh.

Ann Wilson: I keep going back to the *Inside Out* movie because I’m such a visual person, but what makes me sigh? To you that’s like a connection, you’re connecting again. But I also think too, what would make me sigh?

David Robbins: You’re saying a sigh is a relief, it’s a good feeling. A sense of connection that may not solve everything, but I've been seen, I've been heard, I'm known. We'll move forward together.

Dave Wilson: I know what mine is. When Ann says, "Yes, you’re my priority and the kids and the grandkids aren’t." Not that they aren’t, but I’m one, they’re 1B. That’s the season we’re in, the kids are—it gets more complicated. When she chooses to say yes to me and that might mean a no to them. We’ve had this conversation, and I’m exaggerating, but I’ve felt like it’s always a yes to them and it’s not always a yes for me. And it’s just the stage of life we’re in, but she’s an unbelievable grandma. She is fully there and they love her. "Nanny can you come over?" Yup! I’m like, "We’re watching a movie right now or we’re going to go on a date, we can do that later." And so I feel that sometimes. When your spouse says you’re number one, for me that’s a sigh.

David Robbins: One thing for me that we've set in our schedule that we learned the hard way is that with sports at night and different things that come up, the "date night" at our phase of life was a mirage. We would be FamilyLife President and spouse and we do this, we do date nights. Well, no we don't. Because something always comes up, a basketball game or a ministry event. Something is swallowing up our date night hole week after week.

So we decided, "Hey, some people may struggle with slothfulness and laziness and they need to talk to the Lord and say what's for you." For that was David, no one's ever going to say you work too little. Whatever's inside of me, good, bad, ugly.

And so Friday lunches, we set aside for us. We may connect a little bit before on, "Hey, what are we going to say on FamilyLife Today? What's the topic? Let's text Dave and Ann and Bruce." But then we shutter down and we connect with one another.

For Meg to—when she's in flow at the business of a week and yeah, we may talk about the kids some, but we try not to talk about the kids the whole time and she chooses not to. We may connect on work a little bit, but I choose not to talk about work during that time the whole time. That's part of who we are but we keep it as part of who we are and we really look each other in the eyes and connect over, "Okay, where are we?"

All I know is that that priority, which both of us have to keep that a priority or else it will go away. There's always things to do and cram in at the end of a week on a lunch. Sometimes we have to forgo it, but we try to keep it and it is something that makes that—I'm just like, "I'm okay, I'm centered, things are right, we've said what we needed to say," and it really helps me.

Meg Robbins: And I think sometimes we even will say, "Oh, let's talk about that on Friday." Like we know it's there and it's on the calendar every week. I would say with travel and other things, it probably twice a month for sure we make sure it happens.

It's just for me, it's definitely just not just having the time on Friday but knowing that he has let me in to where he really is and I'm letting him in and just being seen. And I think too, I can’t do that sigh with Dave as well until I’ve done it with Jesus. Because the person that really brings us, Matthew 11, "Come to me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest."

When I spend time with Him and I lay all of my burdens at His feet and all the things I'm carrying, that is the best sigh, like, "You've got it. You're in control. You're with me. You know me." Which then helps me when I go to Dave, it's like, "Oh, you're not my person that fills me up all the way. It's Jesus and now I can sigh and be content because we're a team and God's got us."

Dave Wilson: Scale 1 to 10. How’s the romance in your marriage?

David Robbins: Do we get to answer at the same time? On the count of three give me a number. One, two, three.

Meg Robbins: Nine.

David Robbins: Eight.

Dave Wilson: Look at that!

David Robbins: I feel like it’s a ten but I was just lowballing.

Meg Robbins: I truly do think that having a consistent date is a huge part of that.

Ann Wilson: What about the couples right now that are listening that have all toddlers? None of their kids are in school. How do they connect and get that "aha"?

Meg Robbins: Hire a babysitter. I really—or a family member or ask a friend for a favor. If you don't have a teenager or a college student you can hire, then find another couple and even if it's once a month, start somewhere.

Our first child had a lot of physical medical needs and so it was hard at first to leave him, but I will never forget one of my mentor moms saying, "He will be okay for a couple of hours. You guys need to connect." And he was, he was fine. Those were never wasted even if it was an hour and a half.

Ann Wilson: It’s so funny Meg, my pediatrician, when I took our firstborn in for their monthly check, she said, "Okay, I want you to put on your calendar, by the time you come next month, I want you to have had a date night."

David Robbins: What a holistic pediatrician!

Ann Wilson: I know! And I was like, "Oh really?" And I was so desperate and tired, I was like, "Oh okay." So I got my calendar out and I was like, "Okay, we need to do this."

David Robbins: One thing I think about in those early days that we didn't always do well, but I look back and I go, man, I would dial it up even more is in that survival mode, go do playful things that make you laugh or get you—laughter! Life is so serious. So go do something that's uncomfortable or go to a comedy show.

Truly, laugh together or do playful things that make you exercise or whatever. When you're exhausted and you go, "Let's go to a fancy dinner and look at each other and be serious and disclose everything"—yes, you need to connect, but there's something about all the endorphins of laughter or playfulness, physical activity.

What can happen on a walk after you do something silly? There's science in our brain that allows you to connect and go to the places we need to go to. I'm a pretty serious guy, I feel like I learned that a little late, but I'm grateful for the ways when I learned that how to start tapping into that.

Dave Wilson: That’s pretty exciting to hear. A couple that’s in a high-stress job—you guys are leading a major thing. And a lot of our listeners have high-stress jobs. For you guys to say an eight and a nine on romance, that means you can do it even when life is crazy.

David Robbins: Because God is an intimate God and he wants our work and vocation to flow out of intimacy with him and one another. At the same time, it took the learnings and the failures in order to establish a rhythm of a Friday, because we sure did try a lot of different ways and it sure used to be a two at certain points when there was a wedge in our relationship.

Meg Robbins: And we might have a total different answer in three weeks, or tomorrow, who knows.

Dave Wilson: But you didn't give up. You kept figuring it out.

David Robbins: Every marriage drifts toward isolation. Oneness is a choice. You don't drift toward oneness, you have to move there. What you're doing on Fridays is a choice to say we said no to a lot of other things to make sure this happens.

Meg Robbins: I think so much of that does flow out of keeping our eyes fixed on the Lord. The first choice. The moment that I start to look to David to bring me all of my joy or to be the one who sees me first, he's amazing and he does see me really well so much of the time when I let him see what's there. But he isn't Jesus and he wasn't made to meet those places in me the way that the Lord can. But I have to go to him first. That's the biggest secret of all, and it's not a secret.

Dave Wilson: Let me just say this, we meet a ton of couples who say FamilyLife helped them when they needed it the most. And that’s what being a FamilyLife partner is all about, helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.

Ann Wilson: And we’d love for you to join us. So click the donate button at familylifetoday.com and become a partner today.

Dave Wilson: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru ministry. 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.