FamilyLife Today®

Dave Wilson: So, after 41 years of marriage,

Debra Fileta: Yes.

Dave Wilson: which has been awesome.

Debra Fileta: Okay, yes.

Dave Wilson: Uh, what would you say is different about me

Debra Fileta: Mm.

Dave Wilson: from maybe the beginning?

Debra Fileta: Oh, that's a good question.

Dave Wilson: Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Debra Fileta: And I'm Anne Wilson and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.

Dave Wilson: What would you say is different about me from maybe the beginning?

Debra Fileta: You are way more other-centered than self-centered.

Dave Wilson: Really?

Debra Fileta: Oh, yeah. You don't What did you think I was going to say?

Dave Wilson: I had no idea. I just wanted to know what you were thinking.

Debra Fileta: Okay, what would you say? Oh, that's kind of scary.

Dave Wilson: No, I think we've talked about this many times. You are so affirming.

Debra Fileta: Mm.

Dave Wilson: You believe in me. I feel so believed in. And that is one of the greatest gifts anyone could ever give.

Debra Fileta: I feel like you believe in me way more than I believe in myself. And that's a great place to be.

Dave Wilson: I'm laughing cuz we have sitting across the table in our studio a therapist who's probably analyzing us right now like, oh boy, I can see all their childhood uh wounds coming out.

Debra Fileta: I'm glad she didn't see us back in the day, hon. Let's just say that.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, but we've got Deborah Fileta with us and she is a therapist and an author and a mom of four kids and I mean and uh you know, your first book was really about dating, right? But your first book about dating True Love Dates. But you've moved on to write about marriage and we're also going to talk about some other stuff in terms of psychology that you wrote, but we was first of all I want to say thanks for being here. It's great to have you and your husband John in in town.

Debra Fileta: Yeah. True Love Dating. Yeah, True Love Dates. I thought for sure Anne was going to say the haircut.

Dave Wilson: Oh, the haircut?

Debra Fileta: It was different.

Ann Wilson: Oh, why didn't I say that?

Debra Fileta: About you.

Dave Wilson: I thought you mentioned something about sarcasm earlier. How it's hurtful.

Debra Fileta: I I thought I was being just honest, but

Ann Wilson: I'd say that was pretty honest and that is a big change for sure.

Dave Wilson: I think it's funny. There was a day when that bothered me and now it's just like I love being a bald man. You had to shave in the shower.

Debra Fileta: Well, you both look great. Let me just affirm that. You're so sweet.

Dave Wilson: Well, you your book Choosing Marriage. Let's talk about this subtitle. We've already talked about many things, the walls that we bring in as if you missed uh a previous conversation, you got to go listen to it.

Debra Fileta: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dave Wilson: But the subtitle is why it has to start with we over me.

Debra Fileta: Mm-hmm.

Dave Wilson: So, I'm guessing that has something I know. I've read the book talking about going from pride to humility or the selfish problem in our marriages. Help us help us out with this.

Debra Fileta: Yeah. Yeah, we is greater than me. I think that is the formula for a healthy marriage. When you think of marriage, I think oftentimes we look at it like a competition. You know, who's doing more around the house? Who is has the most power in the relationship? There can be this competition rather than seeing us as truly one. When we're truly one, it's a we thing. And now I am beginning to lose myself, but in the best way possible. When John and I met, you guys didn't hear this story at lunch. I used to go by Debbie.

Everyone called me Debbie. When John and I met, he literally just started calling me Deb without even asking my permission. And it was kind of funny cuz at first it threw me off. I'm like, I don't like the word Deb. Like Deb's are like serious and Debbie's are fun and Deb's are like you know, boring.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

Debra Fileta: But he just started calling me Deb and it stuck. So now, 14 years into marriage, you can tell by how how someone knows me by what they call me. If they call me Debbie, it's the pre-John era.

Ann Wilson: Oh.

Debra Fileta: My parents, my cousins, my high school friends. If they call me Deb, it's the post-John era, right? If they call me Deborah, it's work related.

Dave Wilson: There you go.

Debra Fileta: But I use that story because in a way I lost part of myself when I got married. My name shifted. Even something as small as that, but but in the best of ways because in marriage, God calls us to lose ourselves, our selfishness, all of the things that he didn't call us to be. Not our personality and not our hobbies and interests and our calling, but all of the things that God didn't intend for us to carry, those sins and struggles. We've come to the table of marriage to be sharpened, to be changed, to grow, to mature.

Ann Wilson: That's so interesting because I'm thinking about when I was a young mom with three boys under five, I would continually say, I have no life anymore. I have no life anymore. And then as my kids got older and I got older, I was I changed that. Like, oh, that was such a wrong way to see it. My life did change. Everything about it changed, but there was beauty in that change. I saw it as, oh, I can't do this anymore and I don't have time to do that anymore. And yet there's this beauty to that.

And I think marriage can be the same way. It is different. It's no longer me. It is we. And you're saying there's a real beauty in that.

Debra Fileta: There is and and it's something that's so unnatural because as a single person, your whole life is dedicated to self.

Ann Wilson: Yes.

Debra Fileta: You're thinking about yourself. What you're going to eat, what you're going to wear, where you're going to go, your schedule, your budget. It is just about you. And all of a sudden, you have to share everything from the remote to the fridge to the bed. I mean, someone told me before I got married, invest in a king-sized bed. And I was like, what kind of a marriage advice is that? She was right. You know, like everything. And there's so much that you have to learn to overlook with regards to the minors so that you can reserve your energy and power for the majors, the things that really matter.

Um not everything can be a big issue. I actually think of our what I call our bathroom drama. When it comes to Let me talk to you a little bit about selfishness. When it comes to just something as simple as how we get ready, you know, John's side of the sink looks pristine as if we just moved in.

Ann Wilson: Dave too. There's nothing even on the counters.

Debra Fileta: Nothing.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Debra Fileta: My side is like a little bit chaotic, but I know where everything is, you know. And then the toilet paper roll. Like these little tiny things that start bugging you. He he is the king of leaving like one square left on the roll.

Ann Wilson: Or when they've used the toilet paper, there's just the cardboard.

Debra Fileta: Or the cardboard.

Ann Wilson: Yes.

Debra Fileta: So then I'll go replace it.

Dave Wilson: I've never done that by the way. Okay, go ahead.

Debra Fileta: I'll I'll replace it, but but I'm I'm just like I'm not going to put it on. So I just prop it on there.

Dave Wilson: Come on.

Debra Fileta: Like we're both annoying in different ways. And I think that's the stuff that begins to come to the surface.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. I mean, it becomes a really as you've written about and you know, a big deal that you don't foresee

Debra Fileta: These little things.

Dave Wilson: how selfish you really are you know, until you get married. I remember Tim Keller in Meaning of Marriage says three things happen to every married couple. First, they realize their spouse is selfish. Then they realize I'm selfish too. But third is I'm nowhere near as selfish as they are. You know, and it's it's really true. I'll tell this really quick, but I was invited years ago to play in this charity golf outing by a a fellow uh friend of mine on the Detroit Lions. And long story short, each foursome gets a celebrity and they pay $1,000 and they get a celebrity and they don't know who the celebrity is going to be.

And I was invited to play as a celebrity cuz of my buddy. And I said, dude, you know I'm not a celebrity. He goes, I know, but you 're not going to pay. So it 's free for you. So I get there. I walk up to this foursum and I introduce myself and they look at me like, why did you introduce yourself? I said, oh, I 'm your celebrity. And they look Magic Johnson just walked behind.

Debra Fileta: No.

Dave Wilson: Why don't I get him, I get you? And then the guys say It was two guys and two women. And then they said to me, so what are who are you? We don't know your name. Why are you a celebrity? And I said I didn't want to tell them I 'm a pastor and chaplain of the team. So I would freak them out. So I said I'm a friend of Drew Stanton, you know, the guy who's running this thing. And they go, yeah, but you must have some other reason that you're a celebrity. And so finally I said, well, I'm the chaplain of Detroit Lions.

And this guy looks at me and goes, oh, great. That means we can't drink and we can't curse cuz you're a pastor. And I go, well, it gets better. I 'm a bad golfer too. So let's go. Anyway, long story short, we get to like the eighth or ninth hole, standing on the green getting ready to putt. And this wife walks from the other cart up to me and she goes, so I hear you're a marriage expert. They say you're a writer in marriage and blah blah blah. She goes, I got a marriage question. I go, okay.

This is classic. I could never scripted this. She goes, I'm in my second marriage. What's the problem with marriage? That's what she says. We're standing on our green and she's looking at me like you got 30 seconds. What's the problem with marriage? I go, oh, I can answer that in one word. Selfishness. She looks at me. She goes, you are so right. My first husband was the most selfish man ever. I mean, it was so it was classic. And I look back at her and I go, I'm not talking about your first husband. I 'm talking about you.

Debra Fileta: Mm.

Dave Wilson: And I 'm talking about me. And you know, I could tell on her face she's like, you're right. There is a problem there called selfish. Your whole book is about That's at the root of this thing. So how do we deal with our own selfishness? Cuz we want to deal with our spouses, but we really need to deal with our own. How do we move from pride to humility?

Debra Fileta: Yeah. Hey, before we dive in, I just want to remind our listeners that our vision for families at familylife.com is to follow Jesus to impact children, parenting, marriages not just here but around the world. We can't do that without you.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and it's why we do what we do, but you probably don't know this. We have hundreds, even thousands of financial partners, people that pray for us, but also say I don't want to just pray. I want to be a part of this ministry and I 'm going to give part of my income every single month to Family Life to help this ministry impact the world. So you can be a partner with us. You in in a sense, you're impacting others just through our voice and through this program.

Debra Fileta: And we need you.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and if you're sitting there thinking, man, I didn't even know they had monthly supporters like that. Yes, we do. And they literally are partners. We are partnering together to change the world for Jesus Christ. So here's how you can do that. Just go to familylifetoday.com, click on the donate button and become a partner.

Debra Fileta: I think it's important to first and foremost recognize our selfishness. Uh when we're oblivious to it, we have no hope, you know, to really do an assessment between us and the Lord. Like, God, just open my eyes. Like, what are the areas where I am holding on to self, elevating self? And then something else too that I really think helps is just changing my mentality and seeing the ways that God has forgiven me and what God has done for me. And it kind of begins to change my heart to extend that same grace to my spouse.

And and I do believe it starts with the little things in marriage. In the surveys I did, I surveyed over 1,000 singles and 1,000 married couples to get some data for this book. And it was really interesting because the majority of married couples said it's not the big things that they feel are destroying their marriage like addictions and pornography. Not that that's not an issue, but what's actually affecting their marriage day in day out is these little things. These little lifestyle selfishness type things, the tension that begins to build. I mean, think about it. Most of these arguments that we have are about these little things.

And if we don't learn to extend grace, to communicate in a healthy way, if we don't learn to build those muscles with the little things when the big things come, we're not going to be able to handle them. And so it really does start with learning what it looks like to be selfless in the little things. But I will add, I think a lot of Christians are walking around believing that they're being selfless when they're actually being passive. And that's something I think is really important to differentiate.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, talk about that.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, talk about that. That's interesting.

Debra Fileta: Passivity is when you're not communicating your needs. Passivity is when you don't know how to say no and you're just doing things out of guilt. Passivity is when you don't want to rock the boat and cause conflict, so you'd rather just not talk about something. That ends up destroying your marriage because you cannot be passive and not expect that there's some root of bitterness that starts to take hold of your heart and life. Maybe you're not actively saying it. You're being quiet and you're letting your spouse kind of lead and and you're you're not saying what you need, but deep down the root of bitterness and resentment begins to kind of creep into your heart.

You can only be passive for so long until it starts It's going to come out in some conflict or argument or rage. So I think we have to really be cautious and say selflessness is thinking of others first, but that doesn't mean that I don't communicate what I need. That doesn't mean that I pretend that I'm fine when really I'm not because that actually ends up causing more damage to the relationship than good.

Ann Wilson: I think I did that a lot in our younger years when we were first married because I thought I'm not going to bring it up because it's not that big of a deal and I want to be this good Christian wife. I found myself stewing about things. You know, and when I would go back and think about what was I thinking about, I was constantly complaining about Dave over little things as you said, Deborah, like he never puts his dishes in the dishwasher or why isn't he praying with the kids or why is he gone again tonight?

And but I didn't say anything, but man, I would keep thinking about it and then I would kind of pat myself on the back like, I do this and I do way more than he does. I think that's typical in a lot of marriages. But then what would happen because I didn't say anything, then I would just blow up at one time. And Dave's thinking, what is happening? Where did this come from? Is that kind of typical?

Debra Fileta: Right. Where did this come from? Right. Absolutely. And if you really get to the root, the question is, why am I not communicating what I need? Maybe you don't know how to put it into words. Maybe you don't think it's serious enough. Maybe you've grown up just kind of stuffing your needs or not feeling like they're important. And so the question is why? What makes me passive? Because when you get to the why, then you can begin to resolve things. And it's so important to be able to feel that you can share with your spouse what you need.

Ann Wilson: So talk to a listener that maybe has done that. They are listening and thinking, that's exactly what I've gone over the years. What's our next step? You know, how do you take that step into that conversation?

Debra Fileta: First starts with learning to identify your needs. I think sometimes we stuff those needs for so long and it turns into criticism.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Debra Fileta: My spouse isn't helping with the dishes. He doesn't do anything around the house. The question is, what do I need? The answer you know, I 'm feeling burnt out. I'm feeling exhausted. I need some help. I need support. I need to feel like you're a teammate. When you can figure out what you need, it begins to become about you rather than about your spouse. And that's how we want to approach the conversation. You don't want to go up and say, Dave, you're just so lazy. I do everything around here. You not helping. But more of Dave, I 'm feeling burnt out.

I 'm feeling exhausted. And it would mean so much to me if because now it's about me. I 'm not attacking him. Now it's about me and what I need and what I feel versus about him and what he's not doing and because that totally changes the dynamic of the conversation. And you can still have a positive conversation and share your needs. I think sometimes people think that sharing what they need and being honest is always going to lead to conflict.

Ann Wilson: Yes.

Debra Fileta: But that's not the truth.

Dave Wilson: And I think sometimes maybe as a Christ follower, you don't want to share what you need cuz it feels selfish.

Debra Fileta: Right.

Dave Wilson: It's not about me. It's about laying down my life for you. I'm not going to bring out my needs cuz then it's about me. But you're saying that can be a positive way to actually serve your spouse by saying this is what I need, right?

Debra Fileta: Absolutely.

Ann Wilson: Okay, I have to give her this example. And as a therapist, I'm going to ask Deb like, okay, what would you do with this?

Dave Wilson: I have no idea where you're going. This could be scary.

Ann Wilson: So uh we've shared this before, but when our kids were little, I was having a day that I felt overwhelmed and I I was sitting at the kitchen table crying. And I say to Dave, I am the worst mom. I feel like I'm failing. I can't keep our lives together. And this is he says, I'm going to be right back.

Dave Wilson: Okay, this is a really bad illustration of what that Okay, I was very young and didn't know what I do.

Ann Wilson: I I know. And you would never do this today. So he goes upstairs. He comes down with a 3 x 5 piece of paper. And I thought he wrote me an encouraging note of encouraging me as a mom and a wife. Like, you're doing a good job, honey.

Dave Wilson: Never. That's what she thought.

Ann Wilson: And so he handed me this paper and it was numbered 1 to 10. And I look at him like, you are the sweetest. Get more organized. Number two. And I'm thinking, wait, this has to get better. Use your time more wisely.

Dave Wilson: Okay, that's enough.

Ann Wilson: And then I took it and I ripped it up and I threw it in his face.

Dave Wilson: She threw it right in my face.

Ann Wilson: And so I 'm trying to be vulnerable and not withdraw. As a therapist, we're in your office, what would you say when your spouse doesn't respond in the way you were hoping?

Debra Fileta: Yeah. Here's what I would say. Dave, I'm proud of you that you tried to meet your wife where she was at. Your heart was in the right place. And now I need you to spend some time listening to Anne to figure out what actually works for her because what works for you is a list of things we need to change, but that's not what works for her. So Anne, you've got to get better at telling Dave in those moments what you need because he can't read your mind. He's a completely different person. He doesn't know what you need in those moments unless you tell him.

Ann Wilson: And that really was our conversation. This was a breaking point for us in terms of it took us to a better place.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I mean, actually when she did rip it off and throw it, I said, yeah, what do you need? Help me understand. And she told me

Debra Fileta: What do you need? And and Anne, here's where you went wrong. You shared your feelings and you stopped there. So I want you to share your feelings as well as what you need.

Ann Wilson: Oh, that's really good.

Debra Fileta: There's there's two parts to it. It's like here's how I feel.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Debra Fileta: Maybe he doesn't know what to do with those feelings. Do you want me to catch you on the bed? Do you want me to jump up and down? Do you want me to cry? But when you tell me this is what I feel and this is what I need, then I have a road map.

Dave Wilson: Which is typical for us. Yeah. Mm.

Ann Wilson: Go one step further because I 'm thinking of all the women that I talk to. And so they'll say, so I did that. I said this is what I need. And I did tell Dave like, I need you to sit in it with me. But

Dave Wilson: And now I do. I sit sit.

Ann Wilson: And he does, but I've heard some women say, so then I told him, this is what I need from you and my husband has not done anything since I told him that and I was super vulnerable. And then that bitterness has started to So how how would you counsel them?

Debra Fileta: Sure. I would look at it as marriage is not a once and done conversation. This is a process and we're being molded and shaped with each conversation. This is a work in progress. So we keep sharing what we need. We keep giving clues. We keep connecting with one another. We keep seeing what the other person needs. We keep making deposits before we make withdrawals. We keep seeing our role because that's the only thing we have control over.

Ann Wilson: That's good.

Debra Fileta: And then we trust God with what we can't control. So this isn't a once and done thing. I mean, it it takes you so many years to get to this place of dysfunctional interactions. You can't expect them to go away overnight. It takes years of unlearning and relearning and learning what the other person needs and having conversations and

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Debra Fileta: there's even a a road map called the speaker listener technique which you might have heard about before. It's from the Gottman Institute, but I kind of give you a layout of what does it look like to even begin to have a conversation about what you need and what you're feeling cuz some people don't even know where to start.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah, I didn't.

Debra Fileta: So so when you begin learning these things, give yourself grace. Give your spouse grace. This isn't an overnight thing. Training for marriage, just like training for a marathon, just like training for medical school, takes a significant amount of time and energy and effort and work. And when you begin to do those things,

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Debra Fileta: it's going to start moving in the right direction.

Dave Wilson: And as you say in Choosing Marriage, it's choice after choice. And a lot of them are little. And I know for me when Anne told me that, this is decades ago, here's what happened. I began to understand, oh, this is what she needs. But here's the trick is when I'd be in other situations and I would know what she needed, I would still feel this selfishness in me like I don't want to do it.

Debra Fileta: Mm.

Dave Wilson: And that's where I would like Jesus, change me. I can't do it. I don't have the power within me to serve her right now. I know what serving her looks like. She's told me. I don't want to. And it's like that's where the power of the gospel I think meets us and says, I'll give you that power right now. And then little choices like that piled on top of each other, you have a whole different marriage. You just start one choice at a time to say, Jesus, I surrender. Give me the power to be the man, the woman you want me to be.

And then walk into that.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Mm. Amen. Like we talked about in our last conversation with my God, I can scale any wall. And that's the key. It's not just the wall. It's not just me, but it's with my God. Psalm 18 like I can do this with God's help, whatever that wall is, conflict or bitterness or resentment or exhaustion. Like God can give me what I need to overcome this into a fruitful, positive, beautiful, grace-filled marriage.

Debra Fileta: Yes. Okay, you may not know this, but we want to hear from you.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, like literally hear you.

Debra Fileta: You can leave us a voice message with your questions, concerns, praise reports, or whatever. You know, maybe Dave said something that you totally disagree with.

Dave Wilson: Well, why'd you have to pick on me? Maybe it's you said something.

Debra Fileta: Maybe, probably.

Dave Wilson: Or maybe it was inspiring. See? See, I was nice.

Debra Fileta: No. I know you're always nicer than me.

Dave Wilson: I don't think so. Or maybe you just want us to answer a question or explore a certain topic. Whatever you want to say, you get to call and say.

Debra Fileta: All you have to do is go to speakpipe.com/familylifetoday. Again, that's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday or get the link in the show notes.

Dave Wilson: Again, it's speakpipe.com/familylifetoday.

Debra Fileta: I always love being with Deborah Fileta.

Dave Wilson: How'd I know you're going to say that?

Debra Fileta: Because she I say it every time cuz she makes me really think hard and kind of evaluate where we are in our marriage. And we all need that.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, she's

Debra Fileta: I don't know if we all want it, but we need it.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, we need it. And you might need her book. In fact, I think you do need her book or you know someone that needs her book. And if you want to do that, if you want to buy it, go to familylifetoday.com, click on the link in the show notes and pick up her book. Again, it's called Choosing Marriage, Why It Has to Start with We Before Me.

Debra Fileta: Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.