FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I thought that empathy was just about being with someone during the tough stuff, but it's also being there with them during the fun stuff.

It's rejoice with those. Rejoice and cry with those who cry.

And one study said how you celebrate with your spouse is more predictive of a strong relationship than how you fight.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylifetoday.com this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 2

We were speaking at a Weekend to Remember Marriage Getaway this one weekend. As I was speaking, I was talking about how women can help our husbands to be better.

Then I asked this question: Let me ask you this. Do you feel like your husband is happier since he married you? Is your husband better since he married you? Because we can have a pull on our husbands' lives that helps determine where he goes.

Speaker 3

This was Hershey, Pennsylvania, I think.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

And I'm sitting in the back when you're saying that, and I'm like, yeah, this is awesome. I hope every wife's hearing this. But then the next session is this the woman that came up?

Speaker 2

This woman comes up to me. She's sobbing. She's crying on my shoulder, and I'm patting her. My whole shoulder's drenched. I'm like, what happened? What's wrong?

And she goes, I realized something at this weekend. She said, I married this man, and we divorced. And then now I'm married to another man and our marriage is disintegrating. And I've always thought it was my husband's fault, but to be honest, they're worse since they married me.

She said, I've seen them, and all I do is criticize. I thought my criticizing would motivate them. My first husband ended up becoming an alcoholic, and now my second husband is an alcoholic. And I wondered, does what I say, like, could I have an impact? Could that affect him and what he's thinking about himself?

Of course, we all make our own decisions. And this woman is not to blame for some of the things necessarily. But the question is, can we impact our spouse by what we say to them or think about them?

Speaker 3

And the answer, obviously, well, you know what?

Speaker 1

I don't know the answer.

Speaker 3

We've got an expert in the studio. Ted Lowe is with us, and he's going to answer that question for us. Right, Ted? You're going to answer that question?

Speaker 1

Sure. Let's go with that we'll go with.

Speaker 3

Yes, get over there smiling. No, we read your book, Us in Mind, and I love the title because you talk a lot about the mind, how changing your thoughts can change your marriage. Help us understand this. Is that true?

Speaker 1

Is that what happens during COVID? It started really pouring in. Like, how do couples who are happy think? Do they think differently than couples that aren't happy? It turns out they just think in a different way. They think in a way that unhappy couples don't.

Then I started seeing all the research on just the power of our thoughts and how that impacts how we think about ourselves and how we think about our spouse. To answer your questions, it also affects how we think about their emotions and how we think about, you know, before we respond.

Even how we think about the purpose of all this—like, why aren't we even trying here when it comes to marriage? I found out that just our thoughts are so important because they're not our actions and they're not our attitudes, but they lead to both.

Speaker 2

And we don't generally think about that because our thoughts, they're just in our heads. How harmful can that be?

Speaker 3

Right?

Speaker 1

I didn't know not to believe every thought I had. Like, I didn't know that this voice in my head that I call Fred, Fred in my head, I didn't know that Fred was a liar. I mean, I didn't know to not just believe everything that I was thinking and be driven by everything I was thinking.

And you know, scripture's very clear to test and approve. Your thoughts take captive, and then you test and approve. Is this God's good, pleasing, and perfect will here? So I was just letting all my thoughts just run on autopilot.

And I think most people, I don't know if I can say that fairly, but it feels like a lot of people at least think the same way. They never think to question their own thoughts, and they're just determining so much of our relationships.

Speaker 3

You've been in marriage ministry around couples for decades. So obviously you already knew what makes a good marriage. But as you studied that, how did you end up where you end up with the mind thing?

Speaker 2

Were you surprised?

Speaker 1

I was very surprised. Actually, it took me back a little bit because there was one area specifically that I thought, oh, wow, how have I done this this long? I've been doing marriage ministry for 20 plus years. And I thought, how have I missed this?

And it was the power of empathy. I keep seeing all the research, especially with couples that were happy, that they were really good at being empathetic.

And then it hit me one day, well, the reason you've missed it is because you're so bad at it. Yes, you're so bad at this actually.

Speaker 3

And you're a minister, you're supposed to be good at it.

Speaker 1

I was good at it with lots of people. Except I think with my bride.

Speaker 3

Yes, that is me.

Speaker 1

She would say too, if she were here, she was the same way. So when we first got married, our arguments would go a little bit like this. She would share something going on with her, and I would immediately jump into, well, here's what you could do.

Like, for instance, she came home and she had mentioned the same coworker a couple of times. So I say, "Hey, you know, it feels like we've talked about this person several times. I know you don't like confrontation, but maybe you should, you know, have a tough conversation with her, and it's going to make things so much easier long term." Which sounds pretty logical. I get some kind of response like, "blah, blah, blah, blah blah." And I'm like, okay, that's not what she's wanting.

Then, it was the same type of conversation, same cycle of conversation, just changed the topic. One day, she says something to me: "I don't want you to fix this; I want you to feel this." Which, as a fixer, I'm like, why are we talking about it if we're not wanting to fix it? But she's also a fixer. So I think we were both not great at this. When the other one was having an emotion that they were struggling with, especially if they were sad or frustrated, we would try to fix each other.

Speaker 2

This is us, totally us. And I do it to my kids, I did it last week to my daughter in law. She's telling me this sad thing and then I put Jesus in it, like, well, here's what Jesus wants you to know. That's not what she needed. That's true.

Speaker 1

But that empathy part, when someone's emotional, they're functioning out of the emotional part of their brain and the logical part of their brain has gone offline. So you're knocking on a door that's closed and you're trying to resonate with them. A lot of times when people are emotional, they're not very logical. They talk in extremes or they say things like, "This is never going to get better." What we want to do is rescue them by helping them to see things more logically.

But the craziest thing, and this happened throughout the research, is that the thing that brings people to the logical part of their brain is not logic; it's empathy. When you're sitting across from someone who's empathetic, they look at you and acknowledge, "Wow, I can tell you're really frustrated with the kids right now." That acknowledgment cools the emotional part of their brain and brings them back to the logical part. It's empathy. Jesus was so good at this. Oh, he was so good.

We all learned the verse, "Jesus wept." But when you think about Jesus making that decision, if I were Jesus and I walked into a situation where I was about to raise someone from the dead, and all these people were crying, I would think, "Hey, not another tear. I'm about to fix this in grand fashion." But what does he do? He cries with them. He weeps with them. What a model! In those moments, just be with me. Just be with me. And that's all Nancy was wanting from me in those moments when she was talking about a coworker who was really frustrating her.

This guy was taking me to the airport after I had talked about this whole thing of empathy. One of the things I always say is that empathy is not about seeing things from our point of view; it's about seeing things from our spouse's point of view. One of the phrases we tell couples all the time to use is, "If I were you, I'd feel the same way."

So I'm sharing this on stage, and this guy, who was taking me back to the airport after I was done, says, "That stuff really works." He shared that every year, his wife goes to a conference and gets stressed out every time, but she does such a great job. He always tells her, "Honey, there's no need to stress out because you're so good at this. You always crush it. Everybody tells you they celebrate you afterwards. You need to learn that you are so good at this."

But he said it would frustrate her beyond belief. Then he comes in one day and sees her sitting in a little roller chair by the desk. He asks, "How are you doing?" She responds, "I'm just so frustrated." He then says, "Wow, you know what? If I were you, I'd feel the same way." She spins around in her little roller chair and says, "Thank you so much."

Just those moments make such a difference, and it's so much easier. Empathy is so much more effective.

Speaker 3

So is sympathy something you can develop?

Speaker 1

Oh, I was terrible at it.

Speaker 2

We are terrible. Both of us are terrible at it.

Speaker 3

Well, thanks for sharing that with the world.

Speaker 1

Oh, you're supposed to say, if I.

Speaker 3

Were you, I'd be terrible at, oh, we were.

Speaker 1

Yes, we were so terrible. The other phrase we'd use, we use now is, that's understandable.

Speaker 2

That's a good one.

Speaker 1

Because a lot of times I think we'll withhold empathy because we think we're signing off on an emotion we don't agree with.

Speaker 2

See, that's what it is. I was thinking, why don't we. We know life is full of challenges, and families today need biblical truth more than ever. Isn't that true?

Speaker 3

That is true.

Speaker 2

And as a family life partner, your monthly gift helps bring the truth into homes every single day through podcasts, events, and resources.

Speaker 3

So let's make a lasting difference together. Become a partner today. Just go to familylifetoday.com and click the donate button.

I spoke at a men's breakfast at this church locally here in Orlando, and there's 400 to 600 men who show up every Wednesday at 6 am. I was asked to come and speak. So I'm driving up there, and I see this line of cars. I'm like, what in the world? Who has all these men show up?

I asked several of the guys who were at tables, and it was this powerful meeting. I go, how did this ministry develop? Why are so many men here? They all go, that dude over there, who's the leader of the men's ministry of this church, he is the most empathetic guy I've ever met. This whole ministry is built on that value: empathy.

And I go, empathy, a men's ministry? And they're like, that guy walks around this place, and you feel loved, you feel seen, you feel heard. It's just what you said. Can you imagine bringing that into a marriage?

Speaker 1

Oh, it just changed our relationship more than anything has in years and years. That's understandable. We just so withhold it, you know, I'd been traveling way too much, and I come in and I'm. You know, the next day, I'm just out of gas. Nancy walks in, she goes, how you doing? And I go, you know what? I'm really tired. And to be honest, I'm a little depressed. And she goes, that's understandable. I was like, that's all I need to hear. Because in that moment, I was so tired, I didn't want to have to do anything.

And so when we give somebody advice, they feel like, you know, this emotion I'm having, not only is it not okay with them, I need to change what I'm doing in this moment. Like, so what do I do in that moment? Had she said, well, you should be very excited that you've been traveling and that you're providing for our family and you're serving the Lord. You're serving the Lord, Ted. How could you be tired? But instead it was just this moment of going, oh, I don't want to change anything. I don't want to do anything.

But it is the toughest thing in the world for me to do because I am not wired like that. I am wired to fix. All I do is study marriage. I can fix this situation. There's a great book, it's a few years old, but I'll never forget one of the studies in it. It's called *How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It*. One of the things he talks about in the book, it's actually co-authors we're talking about, is that when a woman and sometimes men are standing in an emotional puddle, what men we want to do is we want to yank them out of the puddle with advice. And what they want us to do is step in the puddle.

Now here's the thing. For that, for me at least, why four wet feet is the answer to two wet feet makes no sense to my brain parts, none. But it makes sense to my heart because when I do, it just blends us. And again, it's just so much more simple than the opposite. I mean, you think of the opposite when someone's needing empathy and you give them the opposite of that, you're giving them logic, they're getting frustrated, then that leaks, right? It leaks onto the rest of the day, sometimes longer.

And so just saying, I'm so sorry, you know, and it's true with our kids too. It's my 17-year-old daughter. Like when I think about the times that she and I have had interaction that I wasn't proud of myself about, it's just because I lacked empathy. Because she has so many emotions and I'd be like, well, you know, you're running late because you, you know, you haven't organized. Maybe that calendar thing I did this week, hey, she's stressed out because she's forgotten. Well, you know, we've talked about the calendar. Yeah. That's just what she's wanting right now is a calendar talk in the middle of emotion.

So, you guys, I'm on the journey here, friends. Like, it's the constant thing, but it's so fun when you do it right.

Speaker 2

This is so convicting to me because I'm a woman.

Speaker 3

I'm glad it's convicting to you. Cause it's not to me at.

Speaker 2

So you think I'd be more empathetic. And I can be to other people, but I generally, especially with our kids, I wanna fix them because I hate for them to be in pain.

And for some reason, I think this little antidote I'm about to share is gonna fix everything. And they don't need to be fixed.

And so I'm still trying to figure out how to do this. Like, where did you start?

Speaker 1

Well, I think for us, just having a couple of phrases.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So that's understandable. And if I were you, I'd feel the same way.

Speaker 2

Those are good.

Speaker 1

Or. That seems really hard.

Speaker 3

You gotta make sure you tell me what you mean by that. If I were.

You could feel condescending, like, because I'm me, I wouldn't feel that way. But because you're so weak. Weak.

You're gonna feel that way. So you're saying it in a way where if I was in your shoes, if I was dealing with what you're dealing with. That's what you mean, right?

Speaker 1

Absolutely. If I were having to deal with this too, I would feel the same way. Yeah.

Speaker 2

I have a friend, and we walk all the time. I'll tell her, like, this is my schedule and this is what's going on.

And here's all she said: I would be dead if I were you right now. I don't even know how you're doing this.

I cry when she says that. Thank you for understanding what I feel.

Speaker 3

And I'm over here saying, pack another bag, we're going.

Speaker 1

Let's go.

Speaker 3

She needs me to be crying with you and adjusting the schedule.

Speaker 1

I think we all understand empathy when we've lost a loved one.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Because the people that walk in and give us the platitudes, like, you know, God's got a plan, and God needed Angel, and he always knows what's going on. You know, they wouldn't want you to do X, Y, Z. That doesn't work.

What we do, love, in those moments is somebody comes and goes, "I am so sorry. I'm hurting with you. I don't know what to do. But I'm gonna pray with you." Those are the people we're drawn to. So just bring that down from that dramatic level, and it's still the emotional need that we're needing.

So you go, when do you start? Because I think a lot of people say, well, wait a minute. We have wisdom with each other. I mean, no one knows me like Nancy. No one has more wisdom for me than Nancy. And I think she would say the same thing about me for her.

It's not that you don't give them advice. It's all about a time and a place. And when they're emotional, it's not the time and it's not the place. It's like a kid who's had a tough baseball game, and you pick them up and you start talking. You start giving them coaching tips and tricks, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And they're heartbroken. But what you do is you bring it on the back end. They're about to step out of the car, and you go, hey, buddy, listen. Here's something I think you could work on today that I think if you would, you know, instead, after every game. Someone told us this years ago is, man, I love watching you play. That never goes wrong.

And so I think it's the same thing. It's like, it's okay for us to give our spouses advice and wisdom when they're ready and even ask permission. One of the things we'll say is, if I had some thoughts about xyz, would you want to hear them? So you're asking for permission. But I think that, again, the thing that brings them back to the cooler place into more logical is empathy.

And it's even looking at them and mimicking. Not mocking, but mimicking the look on their face. Studies show that that's real soothing to them. You know, we use this little phrase where we'll say, I see you, I get you, and I got you just now. Because our heads are down so much with our phones. There's something so powerful just when your spouse is talking, especially if they're emotional. Just put your phone down and look at them. Just look at.

And sometimes that's all empathy requires, is you are right here with me and you are hearing this. You know, I see you, I get you, and I get you. It's like you tell them, here's your emotion, and here's the topic. I can tell you're so frustrated about work. I can tell that you are so excited about the kids making better grades. I can tell you're still grieving the loss here, Mom. And you're hurting so bad.

It's just that acknowledgement again. It's cleaner and it's simpler. And isn't that God's way?

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

It's always easier, and sometimes it doesn't make sense to us. It's just the way to go.

And the other thing I got so excited about empathy was I thought that empathy was just about being with someone during the tough stuff, but it's also being there with them during the fun stuff. It's rejoice with those. Rejoice and cry with those who cry.

And one study said how you celebrate with your spouse is more predictive of a strong relationship than how you fight.

Speaker 2

I thought that was fascinating.

Speaker 1

How great is that? And so how many times do we catch ourselves because their emotions don't make sense to us? We don't understand when they get so excited that college football season is starting and you're like, "And what?" What we want to do is roll our eyes, you know, instead of going, "Look at them. They're like a little boy. They get so excited about this."

When they smile, smile back. People go, "Marriage is so complicated." No, when they smile, you smile back. And you don't roll your eyes at things that are important to you.

Speaker 2

Okay, so, Ted, here's this mom listening that has four kids at home that are under 10.

And her husband says, hey, it's football season or it's hunting season or it's golf time.

And this mom is thinking, and you're gonna be gone all the time.

How do we smile in the midst of that?

Speaker 3

This might be personal, Ted. I don't know.

Speaker 1

Yes. Well, as someone who married into a family of four, I remember those days. I think it's when they're in that emotional part of the announcement of guess what season it's in that those are the moments that you celebrate going. And you love it so much. I love watching your face. You turn into a little kid. You are adorable doing this.

And then a little bit later, you're not responding off because what you're saying at that point, this is an inappropriate celebration. This happy emotion that you have is not okay with me.

The thing about when we rejoice, when somebody's rejoicing, studies show that it amplifies what's going on in their brain chemically. It amplifies already feel-good emotions. We want our spouse, when they're excited about something, to tell us first.

Speaker 2

Now, that's good.

Speaker 1

To that mom, I will say it is all about approach, whether that's husband to his wife. It's just saying, "Babe, I love this and I love that you love this. Can we talk through a little bit? Like how we can make this manageable for our family? Because I like you around and I need you around. Can we talk through like that to make it balance?"

People only talk about things when they're frustrated about things. You know, you only talk about the credit card when someone's made a charge that they shouldn't. You know, you only talk about parenting when you think the other one's done it wrong. So couples can talk about these issues. And you guys know this at retreats, right? They can talk about some really deep things because they're not in the middle of a conflict; your brain's in totally the wrong spot when that happens. So when they're in that cool spot, talk to them like that.

But I think you want to be the one your spouse looks to when they get good news. You don't want them to think of anybody else, going, "Oh, they're going to get excited with me," especially if they don't like it. My wife is so grateful with finances, and she doesn't shop a lot, but when she does, she takes down the global economy.

She walked in the other day with six bags from Old Navy just stuffed, and she goes, "Come with me to the bedroom." She does what I call "cell-abrations," where she will take each item out one by one to reveal. Here's what I used to do: she would reveal all items, and then she would go, "Guess how much?" I used to go, "I don't know, just tell me." I finally have learned that she wants me to act like I am playing a game show with her. She wants me to celebrate this moment with her.

So, I mean, I lock in and I guess that number. I'm thinking $147, you know, and she goes, "Nope." She gets all excited. I mean, it's crazy, but I thought, why would I not celebrate that with her?

Speaker 2

Because she's excited.

Speaker 1

She's excited. Why would I take that from her? Why would I be a literal killjoy?

Speaker 2

Why?

Speaker 1

Why not just take two minutes and get excited? I mean, she manages our finances so brilliantly. It's just a two-minute thing, and we need to celebrate those things, right?

I've been mowing the same lawn I've been mowing since 2006. And I'll go, "Come with me outside." We go outside, and she will say, "It looks so amazing." I mean, it's the same lawn, but it's just...

And people say, "What's the big deal in life? You're talking about Old Navy sales and a freshly cut lawn." But life gets really, really hard. Everybody listening knows that. But when we make these little deposits of celebration, it's so powerful. We need that with each other.

Speaker 2

I can. Now that our kids are older, I feel like I can celebrate more easily.

But I'm thinking of the young mom who can be resentful of her husband being excited about hunting season. I wish I would have done that when I was like, it's football season. I wish I would have put on the jersey and said to the kids, it's football season.

Because then Dave wouldn't have felt like, oh, I can't celebrate it here because they're all mad about it.

Speaker 3

I mean, in many ways I feel like you did. You were a football mom, a football wife, a chaplain's wife. I mean, that's a whole other thing. But you know, what you're saying, Ted, is so. I think it's the gospel. It's the two shall become one.

When you said earlier about the mud puddle or being in a puddle, I think whenever you're in a puddle or whenever you're on a mountain, the DNA of the human soul is we don't want to be there alone. Whether it's the valley and we're struggling or when we're celebrating. Even if you celebrate alone, it's empty. You want to know, are we one?

And when my husband or wife shows up and, like you said, doesn't throw the towel and say, "Hey, if you grab, I'll pull you out," but walks in the mud puddle, that's with. That's two becoming one. I love what you said.

Speaker 2

Me too.

Speaker 3

I see you, I get you. I got you. Because when you said that, even when I read it, I thought that's what Jesus does. That's the gospel. I see you coming to earth. I get you. And I got you. I went to the cross, I've got it.

And that's what we can live out in our marriage. I don't know. When you said that, I was inspired to think, man, my wife, my sons, my daughter-in-laws, my grandkids, felt like I'm a person that sees them, gets them, it's got them. That's us in mind.

Speaker 2

I'm going to call our kids and apologize tonight.

Speaker 3

Okay. You just love having Ted Lowe on here, don't you?

Speaker 2

I totally do. I think what he's talking about is fascinating and I think people will really like his book too.

Speaker 3

Yeah, we're gonna have him back tomorrow as well. So come back tomorrow with us.

But if you want to get his book, it's called *Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Marriage*. You can find it at familylifetoday.com; just click the link in the show notes.

Speaker 2

As we're talking about this, you may be wondering if we have anything else or any other ways we can help you.

You can go to familylife.com marriage help, and we have some of our best resources there for you.

And it's free, so you can get some answers.

Speaker 3

Family Life today is a donor supportive ministry of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.