FamilyLife Today®

Dave Wilson: I would say the hardest years of our marriage were when? Please don't say today or this year.

Ann Wilson: When our kids were little. It was so hard. I felt alone. I felt like I didn't know what I was doing. It felt like you were building your career and I was lost. I think that can be pretty typical, don't you?

Dave Wilson: Oh, I think yeah. I mean, it doesn't have to be, but I think it just is.

Welcome to FamilyLife Today® where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I'm Ann Wilson and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today. When our kids were little, it was so hard.

Dave Wilson: And we've got two moms in here with, what, nine kids between them? Or eight?

Laura Wifler: Eight.

Dave Wilson: I hope I'm not a prophet.

Emily Jensen: Oh, please don't! Please don't.

Dave Wilson: So we've got two moms in here with eight kids between them and they're sisters-in-law. It's pretty cool. We've got Emily Jensen and Laura Wifler back for day two.

Emily Jensen: Thank you for having us.

Dave Wilson: Let's talk—in your book, you have a chapter on marriage. I don't know if we'll spend the whole day talking about it, but I think we could because you're in that season. So talk about marriage and having a great, healthy, God-purpose-centered marriage in the middle of risen motherhood.

Ann Wilson: And let me add, too, both of you have children with disabilities. And so your kids are getting older, but you're continually putting your time and energy with all of your kids, but especially you have some more energy that you're putting into the kids that have special needs. I'm guessing that that can take a toll on your marriage as well. Is that true?

Emily Jensen: Yes, absolutely. I think it's just been interesting over the years because you do go through phases in marriage. Like what you're saying, when kids are really little and all you are doing is just surviving day to day and coordinating to the next outing.

For us, we've been married 14 years and our youngest is in first grade now, so we're a little bit out of that stage. We have kind of been rebuilding now in our marriage. Not that anything was torn down, but it's like you're investing in a different way that I think we didn't always have time to do in the little years.

Laura Wifler: You're looking at each other like, "Oh, I remember you." And, "Oh, the kids really will go to college someday. They really will move out." I think when they're really little, you just don't believe it. It seems impossible that they'll ever be that old.

Now we're going, "Oh, actually we can imagine the amount of years that it will be and then it's us and are we investing in our friendship? Are we partnering on things together?" I think something that's really helped us through the years is just trying to stay on the same page in the big picture.

My husband and I have really different personalities. We have really different ways of doing things. Our method to getting to the same end is usually different. But the point is that we're trying to get to the same end. So trying to find ways that we can be unified in the big picture and stay on the same page, I think has been really important for us.

Ann Wilson: Let me ask you, Emily, you're married to Laura's brother. And so has there ever been this awkwardness of, "Let me vent to you, not just about my husband, but about your brother"?

Emily Jensen: I want to know this answer! Laura has been so good about being normal and just laid back, being open about it. Because I think I'm usually the one of the two of us that's like, "Oh, I want to make sure we have clean boundaries here and that you don't feel like you have to hear about this."

Laura Wifler: I have no boundaries!

Emily Jensen: But she pushes me and is like, "I want to hear. I want to know what's going on in your marriage." And so I definitely feel like we're able, somehow by God's grace, to keep all of those things separate. And yeah, Laura is someone who I can talk to about marriage.

Laura Wifler: Now definitely there's some topics that I'm like, "I don't want to know." I'll be honest, I don't want to get into detail. You don't want to hear about your brother. It's weird. I've had that happen a few times and I'm like, "Find another friend for that!"

But the normal marriage questions and woes, we can talk about it. Well, and as I'm so for you, and I think that that is so key as friends and as family members that love one another, that we be for one another and believe the best in each other.

I want her to have room and freedom to just share the real realities of what's going on and also know that I'm going to believe that they're both pursuing the same goal, and their end goal is different—and just to be a friend and cheerleader.

I think we all need that and that's a huge thing in marriage too, is that we believe the best in our spouses. I know that for me, my husband and I are also opposites, very different from one another. It seems to happen a lot in marriage. And yet I've had to really trust that he wants the same thing as me.

Ann Wilson: When you said you want to see the best in each other, generally most women don't do that. They see the negative in their husband. They don't see the good. How have you done that?

Dave Wilson: Maybe their husbands aren't as bad as the one you are married to.

Ann Wilson: Oh, no! You're awesome. We have a normal husband, we have normal marriages. I think it's typical, though, especially if you don't have a friend that's on the same page spiritually. You've been around women where there is just a husband bashing that goes on.

Laura Wifler: Yes, absolutely.

Ann Wilson: And so you're saying you're believing the best and seeing the best. How did you start doing that?

Laura Wifler: I've been fairly open about my husband for a long time worked really long hours. He would just not be at home very often because he was doing great at work and was just really committed to his job.

We definitely did not see eye to eye on that. And my children were young and at home. My daughter was getting diagnosed with disability, surgeries—we were moving. There were so many things going on and I felt like he wasn't as present as I had hoped for him to be.

I think one of the things that kept me through a lot of it was that his words were that, "I want to be available. I want to be here. I love you. I care about you guys." But sometimes I felt like maybe the actions didn't add up, just the way I am in my own life, right? Like I say one thing and then I do another thing.

I had to believe that his heart was there and that what he said, I felt like at times if perhaps I couldn't trust him, I could trust God with our lives. And so I could believe the best because I believe that his heart was still soft towards wanting to be available to our family.

There were times where I think in that situation we needed more tools, more people around us, other voices helping us both to know how to get a different family lifestyle that we said we wanted, but it felt very hard to achieve in the moment.

Believing the best doesn't say I don't see any of these problems, or like, "Oh, you can do nothing wrong." It doesn't mean anything like that. But it does mean to say, "Okay, if he's saying that he wants this and I want this too, I'm going to believe that we both want to pursue this, even though it feels really bumpy right now, even though it feels really hard."

Then we want to bring in voices and support structures and accountability or whatever those things are in order to say, "Okay, we're going to pursue what we both say we want." And also it can happen in little things, I think, a lot of times with couples where one person just forgets to take out the trash. Believing the best means okay, you actually forgot. Not that you just only wanted to watch the football game or whatever.

Ann Wilson: How do you forget every single week?

Laura Wifler: I know, questions, many questions! But what I like that you're getting at too is it's almost developing just compassion for your spouse too and who they are and what they're walking through.

With our own issues, when I forget to do something, I want someone to be like, "What's going on with you today? Are you okay? You must have a lot on your mind." And to really dig in and know that I'm not perfect, I have issues. You want someone to have that compassion.

Emily Jensen: It's helped me to know too, my husband also has hurts in his life. He also has things that are on his mind that are weighing on him. And so recognizing that it's not just "Well, you didn't meet my needs and you're not doing what I want," but "What's going on with you? Are you okay? How can I come alongside you in this?"

Knowing that there's a person on the other side who might be hurting, who might also be carrying a lot. Having that kind of response to them that I would want someone to have to me, I think has been really helpful in having that long-suffering attitude.

Dave Wilson: The grace, the grace of the gospel. Well, I'm sitting over here as the guy. I'm the only guy here, as the husband representative, and I'm thinking, man, you talk about grace. You two just spoke really grace.

Part of me is like, do you live that? Because there's moments, right? Where you said, when he was working—you ought to find our husbands in to see what they think. But I know we get frustrated with one another and it doesn't always come out that way.

It may be an hour or two later you come back and go, right? Especially when you've got children that have extra needs. I mean, children are hard enough as it is, and then add that on top of it, and then you've got a husband who's not showing up. That's hard.

Ann Wilson: Emily, as you said that too, I was recalling Dave has a really rough family past. Both his parents were alcoholics, his dad was abusive, they divorced, he had a little brother that died.

We were on a trip and Dave has very little recollection. His brother died when he was seven. Were your parents divorced at seven too, when you were seven?

Dave Wilson: It was right after the divorce. All the same.

Ann Wilson: And so we got on the phone with his sister who's ten years older, who remembers everything because of her age.

Dave Wilson: She was a teenager at the time.

Ann Wilson: And we got on the phone and she starts saying like, "Oh, our dad was so abusive. He beat up Dave one time and he was drinking all the time. Both parents would pass out."

I remember listening, just tears coming down my cheeks, thinking, I had no idea how hard.

Dave Wilson: I didn't even remember.

Ann Wilson: How hard. And then I told our boys, and when you know the past, you give way more grace. And honestly, our spouses—

Dave Wilson: You felt bad all those times you were putting me down, didn't you?

Ann Wilson: I totally did! And the boys were like, "Dad, we should have given you more grace. You had no upbringing in terms of a healthy family."

I think we just need to give ourselves a little more grace because of the gospel. How can we do that? Because of what Jesus has done. He does that for us all the time. I think that's really wise. And we need Jesus every day to get us to do that every day.

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Yes, so in both of you've already—you've said enough where I go, "Wow, you have good marriages." In the middle of this crazy life you're living at a season in your life where it would be really hard. Give real practical. What do you do? Do you guys date? Do you talk at night?

Laura Wifler: It's so funny you bring up date night because Emily and I have a thing about—I don't know if I'm allowed to share this, but feeling like date nights are so good and so helpful. But also there are seasons in life where date nights aren't possible. Because we have children with disabilities—

Emily Jensen: Out of the house. At the restaurant.

Laura Wifler: Good clarification. But because we have children with disabilities—can you leave them? We can, clearly we're here, but it can be hard. It's much more difficult to secure childcare and things like that.

Especially when they were younger, we needed to be available for bedtime and things like that. And so while I think dates are so valuable, I think there's a lot of pressure on young married couples who have little children at home to figure out a way even if it's, "Let's watch TV and eat Ramen on the couch," but it's just us and it's intentional.

But we're tired! And that's a very real thing, to be very exhausted because your kid's not sleeping. And so I think that the Lord is kind to sustain us no matter our season and that we have to trust that marriage is not dependent upon a special kind of set-aside night, but that God can sustain a marriage through so much more than that in heavy big seasons where maybe we don't have capacity to even say, "Hey, every Tuesday night we're going to get on the couch and we're going to have ice cream."

Ann Wilson: That has just relieved so much pressure. We've talked a lot of military families who one of the spouses is deployed and like, "We can't have date night." And so can we not make it?

Laura Wifler: Right, right. Is it good? Absolutely. So please no one hear that. If you can do that, go for it. That's going to be incredible. But also you can have a very good marriage.

The things that happen on a typical date night, whether it's at a restaurant or whatever, you still do somehow. Communication, connection, intimacy, you name it. I'm guessing you still do that even in a different way.

Emily Jensen: Yeah, I think it's kind of like quiet time where you have to be able to think outside of the box of "If I can't be with God from 6:15 a.m. to 6:25 a.m. with my coffee with my Bible, can I not meet with God?" And it's like, you absolutely can!

You can immerse yourself in the Lord all day, every day. You have to just be a little bit more creative and think more openly. And I think for us, that's kind of what we've done in each season, is just be creative about what it means to stay connected in that season.

Right now, like I said, we have school-age children so they're gone during the day. So guess when my husband and I go do stuff together and hang out? While they're at school. We rarely go on an evening date or a morning date. But if he's free around lunch and I'm free around lunch, I'll say, "Hey, can we have lunch together?" and we'll do that, maybe a couple of times a week.

Laura Wifler: A lot of times a week! I'm impressed right now. Laura's a little jealous! A couple of times a week!

Emily Jensen: We have a lot of flexibility. But I think it's looking at your own situation and saying what does it look like for us to connect. And I think even just bedtime, that's been something for us really early on.

You mentioned we have five kids. People tease us for this, but bedtime was like a strict thing in our house. Like, you are downstairs in your room at a certain time and our older kids can stay up and read. But then from that point on, 7:30 on, it's just my husband and I and we don't always have deep conversations, but we have that time together pretty much every night.

It's quieter. Yeah, it's going to go away when our kids become teenagers and we'll have to get creative again. But for us, I would say that is what got us through the little years was our kids went to bed early every single night and we were just—we just laid on the bed and just died. But we were together! Okay, we were together!

Laura Wifler: As an alternate perspective, as someone who I had shared my husband worked really long hours, so we would not see each other very often. And still, he works away during the day, so that's probably not practical for us to see one another during the daytime.

Dave Wilson: At least twice a week. Come on. I've got to work on something here.

Laura Wifler: But that being said, I think one of the things that helped us was that we took trips together. And so we found that for him—I always would joke that I had to get him out of state in order for work to leave him alone. I know there will be women here that will resonate with that statement.

So I would plan us a little weekend away or we would take a week away and do something a little bit longer. That was something that we didn't bring our children on and it sort of carried us a lot longer through things if we could say, "Okay, we're going to plan a vacation, we're going to go on a trip."

That could be—you could go camping, you could go to Paris. Whatever, it doesn't matter. But that for us was a big way that we connected because we honestly didn't see each other very much during the week. And it was a little bit of practical, "Hey, I'm going here, you're going there," and that was for a season.

There were hard years. I mean, when my daughter was diagnosed with disabilities and we were working through a lot of just big life changes, please no one hear that our marriage is good all the time. Especially that season, things were really, really hard. But we both promised that we would make good on the covenant that we made before the Lord. It wasn't an option for us to explore anything else because we both knew that we wanted to make this work.

This is assuming a healthy marriage that has its normal struggles and ups and downs, there's no abuse, there's nothing like that. There's assumptions that I'm putting in here that I hope anyone hears that those caveats are there.

But this is where Emily and I keep saying we want the same thing. We know that our husbands want to honor God. They want to be faithful to God. And they're going to do it in a different way than what we think is best. Their quiet times are going to look different than what I would suggest. Their time in men's ministries is going to look different than what I think is the right way to do it.

We have to give them freedom to be able to figure that out on their own, just like we have freedom to figure that out as wives. And so I think that it's really just important to recognize your season of life and talk with your husband. Okay, what is right? Like how often should we have one-on-one time together? How often should we try to pursue a date night? Should we take a yearly trip instead?

Having that open communication when you're both not hotheaded, right? You're not coming in mad and saying, "I haven't seen you in a month, what the world?" but instead you're saying, "Okay, I prayed about this. I feel like I'm in a good state right now where I'm walking in grace," and have that communication then with your husband and decide then and there, this is what we would like life to be like. And knowing that it's probably not going to measure quite up to that, but that's something you want to pursue. I think that that can be really helpful of what's practical, what's realistic, and then what do we want that fits in there.

Dave Wilson: I would love for you to speak to the dad, the husband. Because for years, probably decades, I didn't understand how hard it was for Ann, for a mom. I think I do now, maybe. Speak to the guy. Tell him this is what it is like for your wife.

Emily Jensen: One thing I was going to say I've noticed throughout the years is how overstimulated it is. I mean, even just the very physicality of it. Imagine you're in a room all day and there's loud music blaring and there's lights flashing and there's little things coming out of the wall punching your body and you can't leave! Except for when you go to the bathroom and then the room follows you into the bathroom!

So there is a very real component of it that is—it's exhausting because it's so overstimulated. And so just know that—imagine that and then add anything else you want onto that onto the room.

Laura Wifler: Then add smells, that's right! As someone's throwing food at you!

Emily Jensen: This could be a Disney ride!

Laura Wifler: You haven't had a chance to really eat because you're just snacking off the other people's plates. For sure, you're mildly hungry but also totally sick because you've been eating all this weird food.

You didn't sleep the night before because you were eating all this weird food. You're on like three hours of sleep. Maybe somebody's been sick. And there's a timer counting down to when somebody's—your husband's going to open that door and let you out of that room. And then he comes home two hours later!

Dave Wilson: This is Risen Motherhood ride at Universal!

Laura Wifler: Get on the mom ride! No one wants to be on it, no one!

Motherhood is a blessing, motherhood is a blessing, motherhood is a blessing. Let's back up. No, it's funny, the other day I actually heard—this was on some social media, but a dad was saying, and I thought this was really cool, he was saying, "I actually have the privilege to go work because my wife gets to be a stay-at-home mom and that she serves me in that way."

It was just interesting because I think we say that a lot as women, like we get to serve our husbands when they're at work, especially if that mom is a stay-at-home mom. But to hear a dad say, "I have the privilege of working outside the home because my wife is serving me in the home," I thought that recognize the privilege that it is.

Because sometimes it can feel like that's his right. That's, well, he gets to do that because he's the head of the household and it can kind of feel especially—I'm probably someone who's maybe a little bit more ambitious and probably like has to use my hands and my mind all day and I really enjoy that.

I think that that was something that was hard for me, was it felt like, "Well, okay, yep, I have to—that's his right and so now I have to be home in order to support him in that." But instead for him to hear and recognize what a privilege it is.

As we speak to dads, I think recognizing the privilege it is that you get to go off to work every day and that you come home and whatever state your home is in—it might be a total disaster and depending on your wife it might be neat as a pin—but to just be able to tell her that. "I'm so glad that I'm able to go off to work and come home and I want to help you and I want to engage in this," but to be able to say that to her, I think that affirmation piece, that piece that says, "I see your work."

Because I remember I would go through my list with my husband and be like, "And I did this and then I took the trash out and then I mowed the lawn"—I mean, I was doing it all—and I needed to hear, I needed someone to say, "I see the work you're doing."

We know that God sees all the work, but sometimes you just need another human being that you love and care for to recognize it. And so that's what I would say to any dad who's listening is go home and whether your wife is working outside the home and then she's coming home and feeding those kids dinner and getting them off to practices or she's at home all day, tell her you love her, tell her all the reasons why, tell her why she's incredible.

And that, I think, will do so much for her as she goes into the next day and the week beyond. Put it on your phone, make a little reminder and do it once a week, every day.

Ann Wilson: And if you're hearing this and you have a friend that you know her husband will not do that, you do it for her. I mean, we just need to remind each other as sisters like, "I see everything you're doing and I know it's hard, way to go."

Dave Wilson: I've got to add this, dude. If you're the guy saying "I can't do that," do it. Seriously. First of all, thank her. She may be working full-time and doing all this or she could be at home. Just say, "Honey, tell me about your day."

Hear about her day. She's had a hard day, probably, and I know you have too, but she's had a hard day. She would feel honored to be able to go, "Well, I did this and I changed 18 diapers and I picked up—and I mowed the grass." And be impressed. Like, "You're amazing." Genuinely impressed.

I feel like those were some truth bombs laid out today, weren't they? Emily Jensen and Laura Wifler. And again, their book is called Risen Motherhood: Gospel Hope for Everyday Moments. Who doesn't need that?

Ann Wilson: And you can get it at familylifetoday.com. Just click on the link in the show notes.

Dave Wilson: FamilyLife Today® is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru ministry, celebrating 50 years of God's faithfulness as marriages grow stronger and families flourish in him.