FamilyLife Today®

Melissa Kruger: I hope my kids remember God's word being a comfort in their life, an encouragement in their life, a hopeful thing in their life. It shouldn't just be the law. This is actually how you're made to work. This is how you flourish. That's really different than, "Here's the rule so you don't embarrass the family."

Dave Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave Wilson: So, I'm going to throw a phrase at you. I want you to come back with one word.

Ann Wilson: Oh, no. I don't like it when you do this.

Dave Wilson: Parenting teenagers.

Ann Wilson: Fun.

Dave Wilson: Fun? That's your word?

Ann Wilson: Yeah. Okay, I'm going to ask, what would your word be?

Dave Wilson: Fun. But my second word would be fearful.

Ann Wilson: Fun and fearful. Yeah, I think that as parents, especially in the culture today, there are a lot of things that we worry about, we think about, we ponder, and there's fear involved in that.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Well, we're going to talk about today, we've got Melissa Kruger.

Melissa Kruger: I like the teen years. Me too. They're fun. I really like the teen years.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, we do too. I mean, a lot of parents, even before our kids were teenagers, were like, "Oh boy, wait till they're..." but we loved it. We really did.

Melissa Kruger: I find it's really fun getting to know your teens, their thoughts, their ideas.

Ann Wilson: Yes, that's how I felt. I was like all those years of "brush your teeth, tie your shoes," whatever you're trying to... yes, get your lunch. And then suddenly they can do all these things and you're actually getting to have conversations. You know, and I was like, "Oh, I like talking to you."

Dave Wilson: You're fascinating.

Melissa Kruger: Yes, rather than... I feel like in the young years, there's just a lot of mundane plodding that's needed and it's so good.

Ann Wilson: And we'll say, too, there are some really annoying things as well with teenagers. We have to say that. But we're kind on the other end looking in, which we can say is really fun. Some of you are in the midst of that and you're like, "But is it fun?"

Melissa Kruger: Yes. And the transition, I think it sneaks up on you, because they were so sweet and cuddly at nine. And then at eleven, you're like, "Wow, that was an attitude that just walked in the door." And so as a parent, you're a little bit like, "Oh, you were just wanting to hold my hand and cuddle with me, and now you don't like me."

Ann Wilson: Melissa, yes. I said this, like one of our boys was so affectionate. Like, "Mom, please just lay in bed for a little while and just snuggle up with me." And then it felt like the next day was like, "What are you doing? Get out of here." And I just walked out and cried. Like, "Oh."

Melissa Kruger: My son started, when I would kiss his cheek, started wiping it off. And I was like, "Okay." So yeah, you have to put a fence to the side, personal offense aside, because if you take it to heart too much, it would really offend you.

But then I just realized, "Oh, it's just developmental." Some of this is just developmental. One day they'll want to hug you again.

Ann Wilson: Like my friends and I, we would say, "Don't take it personally. Don't take it personally."

Dave Wilson: Now how old are your kids, you and Mike?

Melissa Kruger: 24, 21, and getting ready to turn 18.

Dave Wilson: You're sad.

Ann Wilson: I know.

Dave Wilson: Why this book? And as you talk about raising teens for Christ in a secular age, I think every listener hears that like, "What's the book? I want to get that."

Melissa Kruger: *Parenting with Hope*.

Ann Wilson: *Parenting with Hope*.

Melissa Kruger: I think when I had little kids, what I can remember hearing was kind of what you were saying. "Oh, little kids, little problems; big kids, big problems." And when you're dealing with being thrown up on and exhausted and you haven't slept in a month, that sounds like...

Ann Wilson: Do I even...

Melissa Kruger: "It's worse than this?" And it sounds so terrible. And there is some truth to it when you're dealing with a teen who's dealing with real heartbreak about something. Maybe he's doing things that are harming themselves. I mean, there are real difficulties in the teen years.

But I do think it can still be a hopeful season. And what I always just like to say to a younger mom is every season has really good things and every season has really hard things. And so it's more just embracing what is good in the season and praying through what's hard. But you're going to do that with your two-year-old, too. So start doing it here because that's going to be your foundation for doing it in the teen years.

But I was a high school teacher. I taught high school math, so I was everybody's favorite subject, right? So I realized, one thing I realized was I really had to somehow win these kids over before they would actually learn from me. I taught at a large public school. I had 150 kids, trying to teach algebra one and algebra two.

And what I realized was they did care. They wanted adult interaction, but they wanted to know I cared about them as a person before they wanted what I was selling, which was algebra two to them and they're like, "Why do we need this?" But once they understood I actually cared about them as a person, it was amazing how that made them so much more receptive to what I was trying to teach them.

Dave Wilson: It's the old mantra: "Rules without relationship equal rebellion."

Ann Wilson: Oh, that's good. I haven't heard that. That's good.

Dave Wilson: I think that's Josh McDowell.

Ann Wilson: Wow, he's definitely one who said it. Bring that back. That's good. "Rules without relationship equal rebellion."

Melissa Kruger: Yes, and as a teacher, you found the same thing. I was really fortunate. I got to test some theories on other people's children before I got my own. And you do start to see, because people will say, "Every child's different." Every child is different, but I would say certain practices work well with a large majority of children.

Ann Wilson: Like what?

Melissa Kruger: You would see some teachers whose every class was out of control. It didn't matter which kids were in there. You'd see some teachers who seemed to maintain control no matter what kids she taught. When it comes to high school, it's pretty clear. Having structure really matters for a classroom environment. Being firm really matters. Having clear guidelines, but also being warm.

I talk about this some in the book or different parenting styles: authoritarian versus authoritative versus permissive versus absentee. Well, those are actually teaching styles. I learned that in my education classes. Those categories were how we were taught to teach in a lot of ways.

And so I was like, "Oh, that's really helpful information and I could apply it to my parenting." But I realized a lot of parents weren't ed majors. They hadn't heard some of these things. They had no distinction between authoritarian and authoritative. So those were things that really helped me as a teacher and then they helped as a parent of a teen.

Dave Wilson: Now you've got listeners going, "Okay, you better explain those." Because I remember even before we were parents watching Gary Smalley talk about those different styles. And as a young married couple we're like, "Which one do we want to do and which ones have the best results?" So listeners want to know.

Ann Wilson: And which one do we naturally lean toward as a personality even?

Melissa Kruger: That's a good question. And I think that's good for everyone to ask themselves. To give a little bit of definition of each of them, authoritarian tends to be high control, low warmth. Everything you think about authoritarian. High control, low warmth is how they would categorize it. A little bit like, "Because I said so." It's that parent.

Permissive tends to be high warmth, low control. No boundaries, whatever the child wants is best. And I would say very child-centric in the wrong way child-centric. Whatever the child wants is good, I'm not going to provide any boundaries because that might make that child feel constrained.

You have absentee, which is a new category. Obviously, if you're listening to this, you're probably not in that category because you're trying to parent. So that's someone who's just not around. And a lot of kids today have absentee parents. That's a reality.

Authoritative is high warmth with boundaries. I call that in this book, I call that a shepherd parent. So yes, there are boundaries. Yes, there are rules. Yes, there are expectations. But there's also high warmth. So there's a high degree of conversation happening.

And here's what I always like to say, when you're parenting a two-year-old, the way you communicate your rules is very different than when you're parenting a 16-year-old. This is the time to bring them into the "why" of why you're making these rules, why you're making these decisions.

An authoritarian parent still kind of parents like a two-year-old. "Don't do it because I said so." That's fine when you have a two-year-old and they're running in the street. I actually am fine. I don't need to explain to you all the reasons I don't want you running in the street. At two, don't run in the street. You're going to get in trouble if you do that again. At 16, that's not normally a great model for parents, because typically that's when they start wanting to rebel. Because they are thinking.

Ann Wilson: They're wondering why. "Why can't I?"

Melissa Kruger: Exactly. And so authoritative parents are trying to engage them in that conversation. And here's what I will say: I think permissive and authoritarian are both rooted in fear. The authoritarian fears losing control. The permissive fears losing relationship. Both are based in fear. Whereas I think authoritative requires a lot of faith.

I can't force you to even stay in my boundaries. And there's an acknowledgment of that. But I'm going to keep putting them forth, but I'm going to make sure no matter what, you know I love you. I'm going to always come at this with warmth and I'm going to want to understand you as a person. Even if you're questioning faith, even if you're walking away, I'm going to want to understand you, not just control you because it makes me look bad.

Authoritarian often want to control because they're worried about how the family looks, rather than how the child is doing. That's all of our temptation.

Dave Wilson: Why was that sigh?

Ann Wilson: Because I think we do care what others think of us. I would have said as my kids were becoming teens, "Yeah, of course, it's all about Jesus." But remember I've shared this story... Melissa, I have to tell you this because it's such a bad parenting moment of teens.

Melissa Kruger: Oh, I've had plenty of those.

Ann Wilson: Our oldest was 14 and we were at this big... it was like all of our friends, families were all together. And we were about to eat, we had like a potluck kind of thing. We're about to eat and there's probably 50 of us in this house. It's just jam-packed. And somebody says, "Well, let's pray." And we've got two-year-olds up to 15-year-olds. So our son is one of the oldest.

Dave Wilson: Now he's your son on this day. He's what, 14?

Ann Wilson: Yes, he's 14. And he says, "This food looks like..." he didn't curse, but he said a word like "poop." And I tell Dave, I will never, ever talk about parenting because I have no idea what I'm doing. But when it came down to it, I was embarrassed and fearful of what everyone was thinking about me.

Melissa Kruger: It's so true. And it's really hard. In that moment, it is really hard. Especially as a pastor's family, you know. Everyone's looking at every decision you make. It's not just even in those moments, but they're looking. "Oh, well the Kruger family lets their kids go to that movie." It's not a statement. Kruger family might not be what your family should do. But you do feel this pressure like, "Okay, yeah, we did watch that show," but it might not be right for your kid. But you feel kind in the fishbowl.

Dave Wilson: Hey, let me just pause and say this. Our financial partners are the heartbeat of this ministry. And when you join this monthly giving community, you're not just donating, you're building something eternal.

Ann Wilson: And we'd be so honored to have you on the journey with us. We really would. So here's the question: will you join us today?

Dave Wilson: I hope your answer is yes. And if it is, go to familylifetoday.com. You can click the donate button right there and become a part of the monthly partner program.

So as our listeners are hearing those words, what would be a good... should they talk about that with their spouse if they're married? Should they figure out, what have I been doing?

Melissa Kruger: Yeah, I think it's really good to ask each other, because here's the reality: I think we're most likely to parent how our parents parented. And you often see one parent go to permissive and one go to authoritarian. It's almost like they're trying to counterbalance the other.

Dave Wilson: Good cop, bad cop.

Melissa Kruger: Yes. And some of that's the environment they grew up in. So I think it's actually good to self-reflect and say, "What type of home did I grow up in? Did we lean more towards rules? Did we lean more toward permissive? What type of environment was it?" Because that's going to help you actually realize why am I defaulting to one style.

Dave Wilson: What were you?

Melissa Kruger: My mom was a teacher. So I can really say my parents were really good. They were definitely in the authoritative category. They had boundaries, but I don't even remember many rules as a high school kid. Because at that point we just had a lot of conversations. "Oh, it's prom. Well, what time would be reasonable to get back?" We'd have a conversation about it. They did have some rules, but not a lot. But I'll say this too: my brother and I were not pushing many boundaries. To be fair, we were pretty in-the-box type kids.

But some of that I think was how they were parenting. I didn't feel the need to push against a lot of their rules because they didn't give us a lot of them. But we had conversations. "Hey, what would be reasonable? What would be a good idea? What do you think is okay?" And we'd have that conversation. So I think they really leaned toward that.

My mom, again, was a teacher. So I think she had some of these categories. I can still remember as a young kid, she would always give two choices that made me feel like I was in control of making the choice, but it was really they were both acceptable to her. "Would you like the banana or the apple?"

Ann Wilson: So you had a choice.

Melissa Kruger: Yes. And I learned that parenting trick from her. I was like, "That's really good."

Ann Wilson: Especially with strong-willed kids.

Melissa Kruger: Yes, because it makes the kid feel like they're choosing, but you're really choosing the outcome. And so that's okay. Those are great ways to do it. You're still the one actually who's in control. You're still being the parent. But you're giving them opportunity to make choices.

And I think that's really important because these kids are getting ready to launch. So they've got to start learning how to make some of these choices for themselves. Or else they're going to get off to college and what we don't want to see is, "Oh, now that Mom and Dad are gone, I'm making every choice I want to make that they wouldn't let me make."

What we're hoping to teach in these years... these years are so vital to try to show them God's word is actually for their good, not to keep them from good. So if we're always using it as only the rule, rather than... oh, I hope my kids remember God's word being a comfort in their life, an encouragement in their life, a hopeful thing in their life. It shouldn't just be the law.

What does Psalm 19 say? "The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart." We want to be communicating that as we're even giving boundaries. That this is actually how you're made to work. This is how you flourish. That's really different than, "Here's the rule so you don't embarrass the family."

Dave Wilson: As you think through those different styles, it feels like just an observation a lot of our kids now, next generation parent with more permissive. It's like the self-esteem of their children is the number one goal and so you never want to hurt that. There's good in it because they're really thinking a lot of what we didn't think about, self-esteem is really important. I don't want to give a lot of no's because I just... but it's like no boundaries. And so you watch this and you're like, I don't think that... even as reading your book, permissive doesn't usually get good results.

Melissa Kruger: It doesn't, either. Both of those tend to have negative outcomes on our teens. And it is interesting how culture changes. I definitely grew up in the parenting style where from the moment they came out, you were to watch their sleep schedule, their eat schedule, you were to be in control. That was the way the pendulum was swinging. It definitely seems to be swinging in some different ways right now.

And I do want to say to parents, and I saw this as a teacher, boundaries matter. I remember one of my high school kids coming up to me and he said, "I can tell Miss So-and-So doesn't care about us at all." And I asked, "Why do you say that?" He goes, "She doesn't keep our class under control. She just lets us do whatever we want. She doesn't care about us."

He at 17 could already see that teacher by having an unruly classroom was actually communicating, "I don't care what you do." Whereas structure and boundaries actually communicate, "Hey, you're worth something. You matter. And I'm going to show you how you work best."

Just like we do this in every way with our kids. We make them brush their teeth. Why? Because we care about them. It's not to give them some rule, it's because your teeth are going to rot out if you don't do this. It's not going to go well for you if you don't do this. So boundaries are really for their good.

We're helping them when they don't yet have the life experience to know, "Hey, that's not a good choice to drink and drive." They don't have the life experience to understand what that might lead to. We all do. And so as parents, it's our responsibility to create right boundaries to help them figure out how to navigate these decisions in this world. And so, fear that my kid might not like me, we have to be okay with not being liked by our kids. Every parent's going to face that.

Dave Wilson: Oh yeah, for sure. We started the program saying we all three of us love the teen years. There are parents listening that are "no." Even on your book, I love it. *Parenting* light *with Hope* dark. And it's both. Some are in the light and enjoying it, some are like, "It's hard. My kids are making decisions, we're yelling, they're not obeying." So what would you say to that parent that's listening right now? Like, "Okay, I'm not where you guys are. I want to be where you are."

Ann Wilson: They're feeling hopeless.

Melissa Kruger: Yeah, I never want to treat it lightly because these years can be full of so much hard. I have different friends walking through every level of hard. We have cried a lot of tears, we have prayed a ton of prayers for kids going through stuff that is so painful. And so painful for the child but so painful for the parent.

What I always like to say on that topic is I think the object of our hope is what matters. So my hope in this season is actually not that my kids are okay or even that they're fitting into the mold of what I hope for their life. My hope is placed in the fact that we serve a God who He cares more about them than I do. He's the one person who cares about their spiritual development way more than I do.

But that He's always at work in everything that's happening. That has been my anchor in whatever season of parenting I've been in, is to put my hope firmly in Christ and His ability to redeem whatever is hard and dark and bad. So I can hold onto that no matter what my child's walking through and that has been the anchor that has helped me fast when I walk through difficult things with my kids: nothing is wasted.

We look at some of the choices they're making and they feel so painful and they feel so heavy. Kids who are doubting the faith, walking away from the faith, walking in complete opposition to the things of Scripture and we know it's not good for them.

Ann Wilson: And they're saying things about their sexuality that we are freaking out about.

Melissa Kruger: Yes. And I think at that moment it's really important to remember I can't change their behavior.

Dave Wilson: Oh, it's awful.

Melissa Kruger: I can't change what they think about God. I am completely powerless. But I serve a God who is powerful. And so it drives us back to our knees. It drives us back to Scripture.

What I think sometimes what the mistake we make as parents of teens is thinking, "If I get angry enough, it's going to fix them." Now when we really think about that, we know that is not the way to do it. It's His kindness that leads us to repentance. Rather, we are called to walk with them through their doubts, through their unbelief, through their rebellion. We walk with them, always holding out the gospel to them. They're never too far gone to return. We keep saying that over and over and over again. We keep praying for them. But the Spirit has to awaken their hearts.

Ann Wilson: And I would add too, Melissa, I know that you'll agree with me. This is when for me personally, when my walk with Jesus got even deeper, because I became so desperate. Because as a parent when you're lying in bed at night with fear of what could happen... and I don't know what you're like and what our listeners are like, but I can tend to go on this trail into the incredibly negative outcome of what all this could mean and what could happen. And it does no good.

And so I started learning to take my thoughts captive. I started memorizing more Scripture than I ever had. That's when I started reading the Bible through every single year because I needed to replace my fearful thoughts with godly thoughts. And that part of just surrendering them daily, begging God... we're fasting and praying for our kids because you can tell when they're not in a great spot. Because our kids have been in those spots where you're so fearful, you don't know what's going to happen.

And I would also add, friendships where we're praying together for our kids. I need somebody else to shoulder this with me besides Dave and Jesus, but a girlfriend that's like, "How are they doing? How are you doing? What's going on?" We have a Father that hears every one of our fears, sees every tear, and He's there right with us.

This is FamilyLife Today and you've been listening to Melissa Kruger, and I'm telling you, she's one of my favorites.

Dave Wilson: She is awesome. Her book is called *Parenting with Hope: Raising Teens for Christ in a Secular Age*. What a book we all need right now. You can go get your copy by clicking the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com. And guess what? We'll have Melissa back with us tomorrow.

Ann Wilson: See you then.

Dave Wilson: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru ministry. 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.