FamilyLife Today®

Mark Jobe: It’s impossible to have a healthy, solid, love-filled marriage without the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that’s breaking us, causing us to surrender our rights, and loving sacrificially. I think the key starts with our surrendering ourselves to God instead of focusing on, “Lord, change my spouse.”

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today®, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

As parents, you pray your kids’ whole life. Then when you send them off to college, you’re hoping that their years at college will prepare them for life.

Ann Wilson: That it’ll make a difference in their lives, that what they are gaining will be useful. We hope that they will follow Jesus and really discover His plan for their lives.

Dave Wilson: I remember driving out of Chicago and looking in the rearview mirror back at this city, and I thought, “I just dropped my middle son off in the heart of Chicago. Are we crazy?” It was scary. His little girlfriend’s in the back seat—they were married before he graduated from college—but I remember she was sobbing. She’s just sobbing, and we are too.

In that five-hour drive, I remember thinking, “Did we do the right thing? We should have put him in a cornfield in a community college.” But he’s in Chicago. I’ll never forget when we visited the campus. I don’t know if it’s still there, we’ll find out today because we’ve got not only a former Moody Bible Institute student but now the president of Moody Bible Institute, Mark Jobe, and his wife, Dee, in the studio.

When Austin and I visited, I can’t remember where it was, but on a cement poster thing, it had 2 Timothy 2:15.

Mark Jobe: It’s still there in the arch, in cement. The verse is right there.

Dave Wilson: I just remember looking up there, “Be a workman of the word, handle the word,” and I remember looking up there like, “Is this a sign from God? This is what I hope—we all hope—as parents our sons and daughters will be as adults.” I remember thinking this is part of their mission here.

Ann Wilson: And he loved his experience at Moody Bible Institute. So it’s really fun that this is part of what you do. You also founded a church in Chicago how many years ago?

Mark Jobe: 1986. You know why I know that? Because it’s the same year that we got married.

Dave Wilson: You got married and started a church the same year? All right, tell us this story. This is pretty crazy because you’re not just a president, you’re still a pastor. It’s just this amazing life you lead.

Mark Jobe: Well, let me say this first of all. You were sobbing dropping off your son. The last time we had welcoming of new students, several mothers were sobbing dropping off their children. I went up to one mother and I said, “I know this is hard. I know you’re probably holding back the tears.” She looked at me and said, “Oh no, we’re super excited. Now he’s your problem.”

I said you could at least wait until you walked around the corner before you’re giving high fives and cheering. At least act like you’re sorry.

Dave Wilson: So how did that go if you’re getting married the same year you’re starting a church? We started a church and it’s not easy. Marriage isn’t easy. So how did that go?

Mark Jobe: You did the right thing. You just asked your wife to answer. That’s a good move.

Dee Jobe: Actually, Moody at that time only had a three-year degree. You had to go somewhere else for your bachelor's.

Ann Wilson: Dee, did you go to school there too?

Dee Jobe: I didn't finish because someone had to support this man that was making $8,000 a year at the first church, at the church we started. So I never finished, unfortunately.

When we came, Mark was at Columbia International University finishing up his degree. I went there for a semester to get some more classes, came back, and six months later we got married. I actually grew up in that church.

Ann Wilson: Did you?

Dee Jobe: Yes. It’s a long story, but I grew up there as a little girl. To see a church that I was raised in, in this neighborhood called Back of the Yards—this church that never grew to more than 40 people—Mark said, “I’ll give you a commitment for three years.” They said, “Would you stay?” and he said, “I’ll give you a commitment for three years.”

Mark Jobe: It was like a church plant because there were 18 people and they hadn’t had a pastor, but it had been around for a while.

Dave Wilson: Now, is this the church that I read in your book, which by the way we didn't mention, but it’s called *What Now? How to Move into Your Next Season*? Is this the church you talk about at the beginning? You heard that another guy was going to candidate for that church, he pulled up, saw the building, and just drove away?

Mark Jobe: Several. Quite a few. This was an inner-city church on the southwest side of Chicago, literally drug dealers on the corner, drive-by shootings, and their salary package was $8,000 a year. No insurance, no parsonage.

Dee Jobe: I was the insurance carrier.

Ann Wilson: Dee, this is a neighborhood you grew up in. Did you want to get out of here?

Dee Jobe: I had a real heart for the people. Some of the same people were there that I did grow up with, and they were hurting. It was not a good situation. The pastor left them very wounded. I called a friend of ours at Dallas Theological and said, “Mark’s looking for a place to minister for the summer. Do you have any?” He said, “Go back”—it was called a mission—“Go back to the mission. They need help right now.” That’s where we went, just to help the mission for the summer for $8,000.

Mark Jobe: I was 20 years old helping out. I still had a semester left in Bible college. After the summer they said, “Would you come and be the pastor here?” I’m like, “Well, I’m going to Spain. I plan on going to Spain.” I said, “You know what? Let’s pray about it. I will come and help you out for three years until you can get a real pastor.” Think about it, I’m 20 years old at this time, so no experience.

They said okay. So that’s how we started. But it started exploding with people coming to Christ. We just started seeing tons of people come to Jesus that were from all kinds of really difficult, challenging backgrounds.

Ann Wilson: Let me ask you this. It starts exploding. What was your prayer at the very beginning? There’s nobody there. It’s so little. People are hurting.

Dee Jobe: I remember Mark saying he went to the church one day and he said, “I’m just praying over the pews. Lord, You had 12 men. Give me 12 men.” He started praying, walking down the aisles praying for God to fill those pews with some solid men that love the Lord.

Mark Jobe: Years later, a reporter came in and she was doing a segment on megachurches. She was not a believer, but she walked in our service and the first comment she made was, “Wow, there’s a lot of men in this church.” I thought, “Glad you noticed,” because I thought to myself, there was a time that I prayed, “Lord, there were four men. Lord, give us men.”

I have a real passion. I speak at a lot of men’s conferences as well because I think not only in urban America but across the country, we have a lot of men that are absentee fathers that are not speaking into raising their children. In urban America, sometimes you see it even more. So we’re happy now that we’re known for having a lot of men.

Dave Wilson: That’s super powerful. I know a little bit of your backstory with your dad or your family in Spain. Is that what you saw growing up? I mean, you told me yesterday about your dad riding a horse or riding a donkey?

Ann Wilson: I thought it was a horse.

Mark Jobe: It was a horse named Trompo. Dad was a guy’s guy. Liked cars, liked to fix, he always had grease on his hands. He was saved at 18. He was going to be an electrical mechanic in the steel mills in Northern Indiana.

But God radically got a hold of his life and he thought, “Okay, I want to go to the Amazon jungle,” the most extreme thing that he could think of. He married my mother, who was studying to be a nurse, and they took off for South America. There wasn't any opening or team in the Amazon jungles, but Chile. So he would ride a horse up to the mountains of Chile to do Bible studies there.

We lived in these real remote rustic villages. Then he got on his BMW and he toured Mexico preaching. Then he had a Bultaco that he rode through Spain looking for a city that had no gospel witness. We landed in a city of 140,000 people that had no evangelical Protestant church. That’s where I grew up, in this city.

He was sort of this maverick pioneer. “Let’s go all out for Jesus.” My mother was just as hardy. She’s 85 years old, still lives in Spain. He’s buried outside of the city that he threw his life into reaching for Christ. There’s a building built by the Spaniards, the first evangelical building in this city of Burgos. There’s a little plaque, a very small inconspicuous plaque at the entrance to the building that says in Spanish, “To Robert Jobe, who loved us and taught us the ways of Jesus.”

It makes me emotional because I learned from my father what it was to first of all be a follower of Jesus, be a man, and love a woman.

Dave Wilson: As you were saying it, I was thinking, I don’t know you that well, but I’m like, “You are your father’s son.” Then when you described your mom, I thought, “Dee, you are that person.” You guys are living a life very similar. Your horse was a car, but you’re driving into the urban city where a lot of people are running away from. “I don't want to be there. I’m doing everything I can to get out,” and you’re saying, “We’re going to go in and ask God for 12 men.” You got me teary.

Mark Jobe: We had really a missionary heart. I thought I was going to go to the mission field, and to stay in the US felt a little bit like I’m compromising. To be honest with you, to buy a house felt like I’m caving in because my parents moved 14 times, several different countries. They never owned a home because they felt God could take us and move us and we want to pioneer. We were bred on that sort of spirit of all in for Jesus. You live, you move, you throw yourself into the cause of the gospel.

Dee Jobe: They came to the states to help us for two years early on. They came literally after 30 years in Spain at that time or 25 years with an army backpack, a duffel bag each. That’s all they had. “This is not my home. This is not my home.” They came and ministered and they lived in a tiny two-room in our apartment building in a little basement place and loved people. That’s what people say about him: he loved God and loved people so much. Very simple.

Ann Wilson: What you said was he threw his life into Jesus, into Christ. As you said that, I thought how many other things are we throwing our lives into? Things that don't matter. At the time it feels so important. I’m thinking of sports for kids, our houses, and our retirement. There are so many things that we think will bring us fulfillment and security. I thought about that would be a good question to ask our kids. “What do you think I’m throwing my life into?”

Dave Wilson: I asked that one time when our kids were younger and they said, “Don't go there, don't even tell them.” We’re throwing our lives into sports, but it made me think like that’s not what I want them to say. I want them to say it’s Jesus. So that story is super inspiring. Your dad’s still impacting all of us as you share that story. Talk about legacy.

Here’s my thought. So often Christian parents think that our answer to them to raise a godly, Christ-follower as an adult is get them in a Christian school, get them in a good church, which obviously is great stuff. But I think you just showed it. It’s you. Live on fire for Jesus. It’ll just permeate. Again, that doesn't guarantee anything. There’s no magic formula. But man, watching you watch your parents and now you... is that it? Is that the most important thing?

Dee Jobe: My son Josiah just wrote him a really nice letter again. He’s a great writer. He wrote Mark a letter this past year and again said, “Dad, you are who you are all the time. You’re not one person at home and one person in the pulpit or the church. You are who you are because of the Lord, of course.”

I think our kids have seen that. I come from a different family background. My parents were Christians and actually we were raised in this little storefront church. My dad was from that neighborhood. There was a guy who came in from the suburbs and started this little storefront thing for neighborhood kids. Long story short, he came to Christ. He raised us to go to church and to love God, but he...

Mark Jobe: He was a hard worker, extremely hard worker, and a great father in the sense of loving his kids. He wasn't a great husband.

Dee Jobe: So I saw a lot of turmoil and a lot of that at home, which was just unhealthy for all of us. But he made us go to church every Sunday, Sunday night, Wednesday prayer meeting, but I didn't really see it as lived out as Mark had seen it. Actually, when we came back from our honeymoon, I remember sitting at the table at Connie’s Pizza and just saying, “I really understand now what it means to truly be loved and accepted.” That was only a month later after we got married.

Dave Wilson: When did you jump all in with Jesus?

Dee Jobe: It wasn't until my early 20s.

Mark Jobe: She was a strong woman. When she told me, “Hey, what age did you move out of your house?”

Dee Jobe: 18. I lived on my own and had great jobs and I wasn't going to let anyone hurt me. The Lord just got a hold of my life after a breakup. I just reached out to the Lord and said, “Lord, I need You. There’s no relationship that’s going to meet all my needs.” So I came into Christ, and not long after we met at a church.

Dave Wilson: Sounds like you didn't date too long before it was pretty quick.

Mark Jobe: We ended up dating three years because I was in college and I met her when I was 18, so we weren't quite ready to get married yet. But the week that I graduated from college, I proposed to her. I don't know where I got this, but I had heard somewhere people use the term “love” too flippantly. While we were dating, I told her, “The day that I say ‘I love you’ is the day I’m going to ask you to marry me.” So I never said “I love you” in three years of dating. “I like you a lot,” a lot of workarounds.

Ann Wilson: Did you know he loved you?

Dee Jobe: Oh yeah. But he didn't say it.

Mark Jobe: So I said, “Hey, let's go to...” it was the state capital in Columbia, South Carolina. I said, “Hey, let's go take some pictures there.” So I actually had done mime. I performed a mime.

Dave Wilson: I wish I could tell you to do it right now.

Mark Jobe: And I had blown up three balloons within each other. There was a note in each one. She would pop a balloon, a note would pop out, she'd read it, and I would act out the... it was our story. How we met. I mimed our story and stopped until she popped the next balloon and then mimed the rest.

The final balloon, which was the small balloon, she popped it and it said, “I love you.” She knew that I had told her the day I say “I love you,” I’m going to ask you to marry me. She looked up, and then I got on my knees right there as a mime and I asked her to marry me.

Dave Wilson: That is super cool. That is super unique. I thought mine was pretty good, but that was good.

Dee Jobe: What was yours, Dave?

Dave Wilson: He cut a hole in the Bible and he was praying, “Lord, when she opens this Bible...” No, I made her open it. We were driving to a conference and I literally turned to her and I said, “Hey, you know when Jesus said the two shall become one and leave mother and father? What do you think it means to become one?” She goes, “That’s a good question.” I go, “My Bible’s right here, it’s in Mark 10. Open it up and let’s read it.” She opens it up and there’s the ring. I still have that Bible. I should bring it in. It’s got the little ring cutout. That’s a little bit more spiritual than mine, Mark.

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Ann Wilson: I put three words on there and it still worked: FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru ministry, celebrating 50 years of God’s faithfulness as marriages grow stronger and families flourish in Him.

We talk about marriage a lot and we’re going to get into your book tomorrow, but if you have a listener and they’re like, “Our marriage is struggling,” maybe the way you were, Dee, in your family with your parents. “We love our kids, we’re together because we love our kids, but our marriage is in turmoil.” You guys have three kids that are walking with Jesus. You’re grandparents. You’re doing a lot. But as you talk to people that are struggling in their marriage, what would you say to them? I know that you can't give all the answers, but what are the things you would say, “These are the foundational things that have made us strong”?

Mark Jobe: I would start by saying it starts with your walk with God. You can look at your spouse and make a list of everything that’s wrong with them, and you can say, “If they would respect me more, love me more, show me more, then I would in turn be...” So many times we wait because we say they have issues.

I think it starts with saying, “Okay God, I’m going to be the person God that You’ve called me to be. I have my imperfections, I’m going to surrender to You, and God, give me the capacity and power to love my spouse with their imperfections just like You’ve loved me with my imperfections.” I think it starts there.

It’s impossible to have a healthy, solid, love-filled marriage without the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit that’s breaking us, causing us to surrender our rights, and loving sacrificially. I think the key starts with our surrendering ourselves to God instead of focusing on, “Lord, change my spouse.”

Ann Wilson: I don't think we can get rid of that habit of seeing the negatives in our spouse unless we do surrender to Christ. He’s the one that meets our needs, not our spouse. I’ve tried to get Dave to meet my needs, and it just... and he’s an amazing husband, but he’s not enough to meet all of my needs the way Jesus is.

Dee Jobe: When we were at Columbia down at Columbia, it was just the Lord. I only went to Moody and then I went to Columbia for a semester. There was a missionary there, Cash Godbold, just went to be with the Lord. He had been in Africa for 25 years. He was only on campus that one semester in the grad school on a Saturday teaching for 10 weeks, Scripture Solutions for Sensitive People. That’s why the Lord brought me there.

For 10 weeks I sat and wept as he taught about how we need to be filled with the love of God, and if we are not filled with the love of God... he had a teacup, a glass, a bucket, and a barrel on stage. Mark’s a teacup, a person who wakes up in the morning, sun’s shining, got a job, that’s all he needs. Then we went all the way on the other side and I’m a barrel. So I have this insatiable need—God, of the emotion of love—fill me, fill me, fill me. I felt like I was, “What is going on? Why am I feeling so insecure? We’ve been dating three years, what is going on here?”

It was the Lord. So when I talked to Mr. Godbold, he said, “Dee, this is what you need to do.” He sat down both of us and he said, “Mark, and this is what you need to do.” I had to find verses that spoke God’s love to me to keep me filled, and Mark had to work on verses more of gentleness and kindness and meekness because he doesn't have as great a need, he has to ask the Lord to help him be sensitive to meet those needs that I have.

Mark Jobe: So she had to learn, “My identity’s in You, I need to be filled, and Mark can't fill all those needs.” I had to learn she’s not wired like me. There’s a greater sensitivity that she has, and so I have to be more aware of her needs. We both had a learning curve. We’re 30-some years into our marriage and we’re still learning, but it works very well. To be honest, he said she will make or break your ministry, and I think just her understanding sensitivity of people as we minister to people has made us much more dynamic in ministry than I would have ever been trying to do ministry on my own.

Dave Wilson: When we wrote our book *Vertical Marriage*, of all the passages that I feel God led us to help people understand this concept, it’s really what you just said. It’s Jeremiah 2. My people have committed two sins: they’ve forsaken me, the spring of living water—that’s sin number one—and they’ve dug their own cisterns, broken cisterns.

That’s what we do. It’s interesting in that passage, it’s like He’s talking to people that had tasted the life of God and they turned their back and they go looking... and I’m like, “That’s what we do in romantic relationships.” This woman, this amount of money, this car... He says they’re going to leak. It’s never going to fill. It’s just what you said.

Dee Jobe: And he says there’s inevitable hurts. There’s going to be natural bumps. People are going to knock your containers over. Just refuel on who you are in Christ. Refuel on His love for you. Every day.

Dave Wilson: It’s great to have Mark and Dee Jobe on today, and Mark’s book is called *What Now? How to Move into Your Next Season*. You can get your copy by clicking the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com.