FamilyLife Today®

Drew Hunter: Just thinking about the marks of friendship and what real friendship is, just apply that directly to marriage. Think, have I been expressing affection? Do I let Christina know that I love her and do I show that with my words, my actions, how I care for her? Does she know in her bones that I love her?

Dave Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Dave Wilson.

Ann Wilson: And I’m Ann Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave Wilson: You remember Paul early on? A guy I met playing pickup basketball. Long story, didn’t really have a great home life, so he came in and ended up living with us. Single guy and now he’s married with kids. It's an unbelievable story, but he became a really close friend. He was probably 20 years younger than me.

Ann Wilson: Maybe 20.

Dave Wilson: So he’s almost like a son, but one day we’re in our kitchen and Paul comes over and gives me this really tight hug. His beard is right by my cheek.

Ann Wilson: I watched this and you were so uncomfortable.

Dave Wilson: I remember he hugged me really tight and he said, "Dave Wilson, I just love you. Thank you for impacting my life." And then he won’t let go. So he says, "Hey, this is making you uncomfortable, isn’t it?" And I’m like, "Well, yeah, a little." So then he squeezes harder and he won’t let go. He goes, "You’ve got to embrace this. This is just me saying you’ve been an important man in my life." I remember thinking that really felt uncomfortable, and I shouldn’t be uncomfortable.

Ann Wilson: Why do you think it was uncomfortable?

Dave Wilson: I think my background is I never had a dad. Our family never hugged.

Ann Wilson: Your mom kissed you on the lips all the time.

Dave Wilson: I always hated that. I liked it, but I didn’t like it, especially when friends would come over and she’d kiss them. It was uncomfortable, but I thought it shouldn’t be uncomfortable. Paul, a young man, was mentoring me, teaching me this shouldn’t be an uncomfortable thing. As a man and even as a father of sons, I’ve tried to be better.

We walked into the studio this morning and Rick grabbed you and he hugged you real tight. He said, "Let me give you an uncomfortable hug," and I’m like, "Do you know what we’re talking about today?" He’s going to be editing this program later. But we’ve got Drew Hunter in the studio for day two. Drew wrote a book about friendship, that we are actually created by God for friendship. You hear me talk about this. How does that hit you? As a man, is that something that’s uncomfortable for you?

Drew Hunter: The story you just shared? It’s not anymore. I think it would have been at one time. I think I’ve just recognized how important encouragement, affirmation, honesty, and expressed affection are for human relationships and for friendship. And for men. That’s actually a lack of those things is a reason contributing to why friendships can stay so tepid and superficial because we don’t have that kind of open honesty and transparency about how we actually feel about one another and care about each other.

Ann Wilson: It’s a beautiful thing. Drew, you’re a dad of four boys and you’re a pastor in Zionsville, Indiana. Your oldest son is 12. So are you still hugging him a lot? And will there ever be a day that you won’t?

Drew Hunter: I hope not. I want to have them filled with love and affection, so I tell them I love them often. I want to express that in all of life and plenty of big hugs.

Dave Wilson: We had your friend Dane Ortlund on. We’ve had him on several times on FamilyLife Today and we’re going to play a clip because he makes a comment about this thing that’s pretty beautiful and I’d love to hear your thoughts.

Dane Ortlund: I’m 43, my dad is 72. To this day, when I walk into my parents' home in Franklin, Tennessee, he gives me a big hug. Maybe it lasts a few seconds too long. I’m kidding. It’s a real hug. Most of the men at my church, when I give them a hug, we’re both like, okay, let’s release really fast here before this gets awkward. Give a good hug and you’re communicating I have sincere affection for you.

Drew Hunter: I resonate with that. I’ve hugged Dane many times and he’s a man who models encouragement and expressed affection better than most people I know. He’s modeled that for me really well also.

Ann Wilson: I like the legacy of his dad doing that and then he’s just carried it on.

Drew Hunter: It’s a picture too that as I think about my boys, I’m their father, but ideally what father-son relationships can turn into is friendship. As they grow older, nothing’s ever going to change about the parent dynamic nor should it. But a layer added to that is friendship. That’s what Dane’s expressing with his dad as well. So I look forward to my boys growing into my closest friends as well over time.

Ann Wilson: I led a Bible study with the Detroit Lions' wives for about 35 years and there was this one woman, Yvonne, that she would host this Bible study. The Bible study for the women kept growing and growing. I was watching Yvonne and every time someone would come in the door, mind you, these women are from all over the country, they don’t know each other, but they would walk through the door and Yvonne would have this huge smile. She’d see them, she’s from Hawaii, and so every time she’d kiss them on the cheek, she would hug them. Everyone felt like this is the best place in the world and they wanted to be her friend because of her open affection and love for them.

Dave Wilson: It’s interesting, I was thinking the same thing during that season of our ministry with the Detroit Lions. We had a quarterback come into our locker room and an NFL locker room is not a place of a lot of hugs unless you’re winning. After a game, there are a lot of hugs. Not so much in Detroit.

But there was this one quarterback, Josh McCown. He was such a lover of people. He was a joy-bringer. He reminds me a little bit of Dane, actually. He’s a man of God, a man of the Word. He was in Detroit one season, then was traded to another team, played in the NFL like 15 years. Another quarterback came in the same year, John Kitna. That was our starter and our backup. Those two men of God had this unique ability in our locker room.

The whole locker room tilted toward their lockers because John was this strong man of the Word. He had a Bible as big as this table in his locker. Josh was a man of the Word as well, and yet he had this tender, loving, affectionate love for the men. We baptized 27 players that season.

Ann Wilson: And they were really good friends.

Dave Wilson: They were great friends, but as I think about that season, I think a lot of it was John’s strong, courageous commitment but Josh’s tender love for the locker room. When I say the locker room was leaning toward their lockers, they were drawn over there like a magnet. It was this friendship thing you’re talking about, that we’re made for friendship. Even NFL macho men who you think don’t want friendship, they are little boys inside that are longing for another man to see them and acknowledge them and want to have a relationship with them. Is that what God designed us for? Is that what you’ve seen?

Drew Hunter: Absolutely. Even your story reminds me that this isn't for certain personality types. It’s not like that guy’s good at friendship, that’s for him, or he’s really good at encouraging people. Some people can be way out in the lead doing it well, but Romans 12 says outdo one another in showing honor. That’s expressing esteem for one another. That’s what it means to show honor.

Every Christian is called to, in any room we’re ever in, we’ll walk out and someone will have won. They will have outdone everyone else in showing honor. Every Christian is called to pursue being that person who, not like we need to feel like we’re better than people, but there is a godly sense of competition in the sense that in every gathering, someone’s going to have shown the most honor to others and we should all be striving to do that.

Some people are better than others, but we shouldn’t see that as that’s just their thing. That’s not comfortable for me. We all can grow into that. I think there are so many cultural influences that keep people and men from being able to look another man in the eye and say, "I love you. I respect you. Let me tell you something that I appreciate about you that you did for me. I don't know if you noticed I even knew that, but that really meant a lot to me."

That kind of sharing has been very rare in our culture and I think we shouldn’t take that as just reflective of the way the world should be. This is the way it is right now, but how it should be is expressing honor, affirmation, and encouragement.

I read a book called *The Overflow of Friendship* by a historian who is just studying letters between men in the early founding era of America. He says he reads the letters to his students now and their jaws drop because they can’t imagine what it would be like to have this kind of affection and encouragement expressed to one another.

In our world, we’ve so sexualized relationships that we just assume if you’re saying really kind affectionate things to one another, there must be something else going on. He just says not at all. There is not a hint of that in these letters and in these relationships. This is just men expressing love and affection and care for one another. We see that in David and Jonathan. They kiss each other with a cultural greeting. They’re crying when they leave each other. The Bible calls us, all Christians, to encourage one another.

Ann Wilson: What’s the culture, Dave, where the men, wherever they go, they hold hands?

Dave Wilson: I mean, it’s true when I’ve been in the bush in Africa. They do that and it’s just their community. There's nothing sexualized about it at all. It’s exactly what you just said. I know that in the last few years the guys that I have friendships around the country, some of them former NFL Detroit Lions guys, when we hang up, it’s always, "Hey, love you." 20 years ago didn't say that, but it’s a good thing to say to a friend. Obviously, as a dad to your children, but it’s a good thing.

I want to hear you talk about your subtitle: how a friend doubles our joy and halves our sorrow. Talk about that.

Drew Hunter: That line is somewhat modified from J.C. Ryle, who put it similarly and he was picking up a phrase that through history was rolling through the ages. The way that he put it is he says this world is a dark place, it’s a lonely place, it’s a disappointing place. He’s just recognizing the reality of sin and sadness in our life.

But then he says the brightest sunbeam in it is a friend. Friendship halves our troubles and doubles our joys. What I love about that is both its realism—life is hard, we all know this—but then God has shined the light in and the brightest beam is friendship. Both friendship with the Lord Jesus and one another. I want in on that.

The benefits of that is this halving our troubles and sorrows. Cutting those in half and then doubling our joys. That’s been my experience. Any burden I’m going through, if I’m going through it with someone who knows me and loves me, just even them caring about me through this lifts the load off my shoulders. Cuts it in half. I’ve been through stuff in my life where I think if I didn’t have those close friends with me, I don’t know how that would have turned out or what I would have done. There's no way I could have gotten through that.

And then doubling the joys. Everything is better in life with friends. There are so many experiences in life that I’ve had where if you remove friends from those experiences, you can say that was great, you went to this place, you saw those mountains, you experienced that. Yeah, but if you take my friends out of that experience, I wouldn’t be talking about it as an amazing memory. It’s friendship that doubles those joys and just makes life better. So when you ask me what’s best in life, I’m going to start naming people for you because that’s what’s best in life.

Ann Wilson: That’s really good. I’m thinking about Michelle and I have some really pretty amazing friends and Michelle happens to have a shepherding gift too. But when my sister died, I walked into my house after the funeral and my house was full of flowers everywhere and scripture everywhere. I think of how she was just there. She was there sitting, listening, being there, sending me scripture.

Then when I turned 40, this is pretty remarkable. Do you remember this, Dave? She contacted 40 friends. Now if there’s 40, you know they’re not super-super close, but 40 friends of mine. So for 40 days before my birthday, she had someone give me a gift. For 40 days, it was the most amazing birthday ever. But a friend is thinking about you and that’s what I thought, she’s thinking about me. The day before each one of our sons got married, she would always give me this long letter of how she saw me parent that son and how she was inspired by it. I think back on some of the greatest moments of my life, it was Michelle creating these incredible times. I don’t think my life has been so much richer with her. Dave, he’s my best friend, but I also need other women beside me.

Dave Wilson: When her sister died, I did the funeral in a different state. She was in Georgia. She was 44, she had four boys, it was a quick cancer thing. So it was a horrible day. I’m the pastor in the family, so I’m standing up in front of her four boys and her husband and Ann’s dad. I mean, you’re looking at all these people in your family. All of a sudden, the back door of the church opens. We're in some church in the Atlanta area, actually, Tennessee area.

Ann Wilson: Dalton.

Dave Wilson: And the back door of the church opens and five or six of our closest friends from Michigan walk in right before the funeral. One of our friends who has a private jet flew them down. He contacted them and said, "You need to be there with Dave and Ann because you’re their closest friends." What you said, there was sorrow but somehow that halved it. It was just so good to have community in the middle of a valley.

Drew Hunter: Your story about your friend having those 40 notes reminds me too of Christina, who is my best friend. Not the only friend, but best friend. I turned 40 and she contacted a number of my friends and had them just write a note to me just expressing some memory or some appreciation and then she compiled it into a little book.

I was actually having kind of a rough day. Turning 40 hit me in ways I wasn’t prepared for. It is a hard one. I usually do a pretty good job anticipating things, watching other people go through things so I’m not caught off guard, but it did hit me and it was hard. Then I opened that book and started reading and I was in tears. It took a while to get through it, but it was so meaningful and actually just gave me so much hope for the next 10 years to think so many of these rich relationships I have and the memories they shared were from the past 10 or 15 years and the next 10 or 15, Lord willing, can be just as rich. So it’s added so much and that’s the joy in life, what God gives us through the people.

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Ann Wilson: Talk about being a consumer friend. That consumer friendship, what’s that mean?

Drew Hunter: If you contrast consumer friendship with we could call committed or covenantal friendship. David and Jonathan make a covenant of friendship. I don't think that we all need to make covenants of friendship, but it gets at something that’s a contrast with how friendship is normally experienced by some people.

Consumer friendship is the idea that your friendship is there to be used by you. When you want something from them, you can go to them. Networking is huge today, but people can turn friendship and make networking and friendship the same thing in their life. They just see everyone as a potential for something else. Using for a good time and when things get hard in that person’s life, then they don’t show up. They aren’t going to call them because they aren’t deep and connected and they haven’t had a relationship that would be comfortable stepping in in hard times or suffering.

Consumer friendship is like consuming goods. When they’re useful you have them, when they’re not you discard them and you move on. Proverbs talks about that when talking about how often people treat people with money. The rich have many friends, the poor have their friends even leave them. That’s consumer friendship.

Covenantal or committed friendship means like Proverbs 17 says: a friend loves at all times and a brother’s born for adversity. Even in the hardship, you don’t forsake your friend. In fact, Proverbs even says do not forsake your friend or your father’s friend. The context of that proverb is calamity coming into someone’s life. Your friend loses his job, gets diagnosed with cancer, sinks into depression. What do you do? Proverbs says the one thing you can’t do is forsake them. You move close. You express solidarity with them in that.

I remember I was going through a really hard time at one point and Dane, he knew I was going through this hard time and he just showed up one day at my church. He just stood next to me or stood behind me, gave me a hug, and then we had lunch and then he went back because he just knew I was having a hard time in life. So he just showed up. I’ll never forget that. Deeply meaningful. So that’s a covenantal friend, that’s a committed friend in the good times and the bad times, expressing love and solidarity and staying with that person.

Job’s friends are a bad example in so many ways, but they had a decent start. They showed up, they sat with him, they wept with him. And then they said things. Maybe don’t say things if you don’t know what to say.

Dave Wilson: As I’m thinking of a husband and wife, because you talked about you and Christina are great friends, Ann and I are great friends, how do you build a great friendship in your marriage? Because not a lot of marriages have that.

Drew Hunter: Maybe a first step is even if you recognize you don’t have it, just acknowledge that together and just speak openly about what you wish it could be and own your own shortcomings in that. Just thinking about the marks of friendship and what real friendship is, just apply that directly to marriage.

Have I been expressing affection? Do I let Christina know that I love her and do I show that with my words, my actions, how I care for her? Does she know in her bones that I love her? It’s obvious that I do. Not like I know he loves me but it’s like you need to feel it, it needs to be obvious. Communication, transparency is a mark of friendship, so just speaking openly and honestly about our own weaknesses and shortcomings.

First John 1:7 calls us to walk in the light. Walk in the light as He is in the light. That’s not walking in perfection. The context of that is actually just walking in honesty, it’s coming out of hiding. Is there some sin in your life or collection of sins or struggles that you have that you don’t bring to your spouse? Walking in the light is coming out of hiding, out in the light. Real forgiveness, felt forgiveness, and real friendship happen through walking in the light together. Confessing sin, being open, knowing each other, not treating each other as a consumer either but a committed covenantal friend, caring for each other and serving in those ways.

Jesus is the perfect friend. Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. Love is affectionate, committed, self-sacrificial. Serve in love, confess and apologize when you don’t, be quick to apologize, quick to repent, quick to forgive. All these things that friendship needs need to be in there as well. Taking the first step is owning your own part of that and seeing that you’re the problem.

Ann Wilson: I like thinking about that conversation with a husband or wife of saying I’d love us to be even better friends. What do you think that could look like or what could we do to become better friends? I would add one more: have fun together. You and Christina are about to have a few days together of just having fun and that is another thing that draws you close to one another. This has been great.

Dave Wilson: I would just end with this. Listening to what you just said, Drew, and reading your book, I am such a blessed man because my best friend is sitting right here.

Ann Wilson: You’re my best friend too.

Dave Wilson: No, you are such a great friend. You love me, you speak truth to me, I am so thankful. And I’m sure you feel the same way about Christina. Not all men or spouses get that. It’s a lot of work. If you’re not there, you can get there. God wants you to have it, but it’s on us to pursue it and do the marks of friendship that you talked about.

What a great day with Drew Hunter talking about friendship and community and the power of relationships. By the way, the book again is called *Made for Friendship: The Relationship That Halves Our Sorrows and Doubles Our Joys*.

Ann Wilson: Doesn’t it make you want to have more friends?

Dave Wilson: I’ve got enough. You just need a few, you don’t need a thousand. That’s true, but it’s just so good. You can get your copy by just clicking the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com. Tell you what, a lot of people don’t know this, but we’re on YouTube.

Ann Wilson: I love watching you two clips. You get a lot more out of it, I think, when you’re watching people.

Dave Wilson: And the next generation’s probably going to watch it rather than just listen to it. So you can do either/or but if you want to watch and enjoy it, YouTube.com/FamilyLife. Just go to YouTube.com/FamilyLife or if you’re a big YouTube person, just go to YouTube and type in FamilyLife one word.

Ann Wilson: I put three words on there and it still worked: FamilyLife Today.

Dave Wilson: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Cru ministry, celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.