FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

The secret to me in a long marriage for us is it's not that you're perfect, but you become professional forgivers. It's like the longest marriages you have, they've forgiven more than a short marriage for sure. Right? Everybody needs space for grace.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylife today.com. this is Family Life today. I was thinking about this last night. I think I know you are the most grace giving what Person I've ever met.

Speaker 4

Come on. What do you mean?

Speaker 3

What?

Speaker 4

That's so nice of you.

Speaker 3

You are so gracious to me and to maybe not other drivers, but I mean.

Speaker 1

You are the same in that regard. That's hilarious.

Speaker 3

But no, I was thinking about, as we're gonna talk about this, the fundamentals of marriage, when I was reading it, I'm like, I am married to the most loving, tender.

Speaker 4

What?

Speaker 3

And again, it wasn't always that way.

Speaker 2

I was gonna say that's miraculous because I think I was the opposite when we first got married.

Speaker 3

I feel like we're not going there.

Speaker 2

We're talking for judgmental. But thank you. That means a ton.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I mean, I watch you with strangers and I watch you with our grandkids. It' I'm inspired.

Speaker 1

That's amazing.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And you're Aaron Howard and Danielle Taylor, who are in the studio and I was reading your work.

Speaker 4

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3

Even last night, the fundamentals. Marriage.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

And you talk about a grace filled marriage and the four factors.

Speaker 1

We call it the forgiveness factors. Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And that hit me yesterday when I was reading it and I thought, I just wanted to start today saying that.

Speaker 2

This is the best program ever.

Speaker 1

That's amazing.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Well, Howard and Daniel, welcome back.

Speaker 1

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3

Marriage on deck. Is it marriageondeck.com?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Marriage on deck. People can find you.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And so we've talked a little bit about your story, but even that, as you hear about the grace and the four factors, I mean, you don't have to get right into those.

But how important would you say that is to a marriage? Because even as I listened to you guys yesterday, I thought you guys are really graceful people as well.

Speaker 4

Thank you.

Speaker 2

It's a representation of the gospel as you give grace to each other. I've watched it yesterday. It's really beautiful.

Speaker 4

Thank you, Jesus.

Speaker 1

You know?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I think grace, we say, we talk to older marriage, we call them skyscraper couples. Marriages. That are 50 and 40 and even 30 years.

Speaker 4

This is us. We're skyscrapers.

Speaker 1

So you guys are skyscrapers. We look at you guys 40 stories tall. When we talk to these couples, everybody always asks, "What's the secret? What's the secret?" I remember one lady who stood out to me because she said, "Well, you know, the secret to me in a long marriage for us is it's not that you're perfect, but you become professional forgivers." The longest marriages you have, they've forgiven more than a short marriage, for sure. Right? Everybody needs space for grace.

What we love about grace is it's an intentional thing. It's like a gift that we give. Sometimes when we ask for forgiveness and we say we're sorry, it feels like pain. It has a negative connotation. It's painful to have to forgive somebody that's harmed you. When Danielle and I began our marriage, Danielle would say, "Well, I look at you how Christ looks at you." I needed my fair share of grace, but I see you through the eyes of how Christ sees you. I began to return that to her.

When we think about how Christ is, we realize we are messed up. Not just us, but Adam, the children of Israel, and everybody throughout the Bible really needed a great measure of grace. It's almost appalling that I would not be able to return that grace. I'm so thankful that Christ paid it all on Calvary. He did it all on Easter Sunday. We were talking about that off air, but then when we get in the car with our spouse and they do something wrong, we're not willing to offer them that same Christlike sacrifice where He takes pleasure in gracing us and covering our sins.

It says love covers a multitude of sins. These types of things we begin to relish in because they make us feel more Christ-centered, more attached to the Savior that we serve, the reason why we call ourselves Christian. Those things come in grace. Finally, there's a scripture that says everybody could love somebody that's good to them. Yes, everybody could do that. What effort does that take? But what Christ challenges us to do is to love those who despitefully use us, those who do wrong.

I could apply that to a coworker, but it's very difficult to say that my wife is the one that despitefully used me in this season, or my husband is the one that wronged me. Christ is challenging us to love them through that season as well. Because we all know marriage has peaks and valleys. I don't care who you are.

Speaker 4

That's right.

Speaker 3

Ever have. Like we were joking earlier. There were seasons in our marriage where we weren't very grace giving.

Speaker 4

Oh, I was awful, for sure.

Speaker 3

Have you had that?

Speaker 4

Absolutely, absolutely. When we first got married, our communication was so, so, so, so bad. We were tearing each other apart. We were using our words as a weapon. Very short, judgmental, unrealistic expectations. Yes. All of those things. Absolutely.

As different things have come along, we' like a failed business where it's kind.

Speaker 1

Of like you could easily play the blame game.

Speaker 4

You could easily play the blame game. We lost our child. You could easily play the blame game there. A lot of people have fallen apart because of things like that.

That. Yes. We've needed grace so much more, you know, probably more than ever during those times.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Talk to us about walking through that valley with your child.

Speaker 4

Oh, it was such a sad situation. So sad. When I read that when Howard and I got together, we were virgins for four years. We were college graduates, Christian. We just felt like we're doing this thing the right way and God's gonna bless us. And God is going to bless us.

We deliberately held off for eight or nine years so that we can save up the money and just really bring this child in. Right? So we felt like, oh, our measures of success and the works of what we're doing is going to make us exempt from any type of bad news for sure.

Fast forward. I go into labor early. The baby is delivered. He lives for four days. And we're like, yeah, this is not supposed to happen 24 weeks. Right?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Daniel had an incompetent cervix, didn't know it. And so her cervixes thinned out.

And unfortunately, we found ourselves in a turbulent situation in the hospital one day with this baby that we had planned for, saved for, prayed for, had vision for, was coming.

And we tried to pray it away, and it wasn't going away. That baby was coming, and he came, and we tried to pray his life into longevity.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 1

That wasn't going to be the outcome, but that baby, we call him our angel baby Harper passed away and really threw us into a spiritual spiral.

Speaker 4

Yes, for sure, what that looked like. We felt like we started going to prayer pretty immediately after our chapel. Our church had a chapel that was open for prayer. But we just felt like God had abandoned us, had disappointed us, let us down.

It's like, how could you do that to people that are doing it the right way? What kind of God would do that? That's what I thought at the time, right? I'm like, Lord, I'm just laying it all out. Cause you need to know. I mean, I know you know my thoughts and my heart, but you need to know. I need to say it out loud.

Howard felt like he couldn't hear from God. He couldn't talk to God.

Speaker 1

Yeah, for me. So I was working at that time. Danielle was off of work. And so I. It threw me into a spiral, I would say. For the first time in my life, I didn't know what to say to God. And I didn't particularly feel like I was hearing from him anymore. I just was shocked. It was a very silent, quiet season in that time. And I just remember feeling like, you know, God, where are you? What's the answer? Because I couldn't explain it. You know, having such vision as a boy, I shared with you guys on the last episode that it was paramount to me to be a great father and be all that I didn't have.

That desire caused me to do works, as Danielle spoke to, thinking I was going to get an outcome. And that was a very immature perspective. But God met us. One of the things we did, and I thank God for this, is that we had a strong spiritual foundation. We mentioned this before. That strong spiritual foundation allowed Danielle and me to trust each other with prayer and to share our sorrow. We didn't turn away from each other because we had prayed during our courtship and dating period. We had prayed through our eight years prior to having that boy. So when we didn't know what to do, we almost, by muscle memory, leaned on each other in prayer.

When she was complaining, I would say, "Well, baby, the scripture..." When I was complaining, like, "What is going on?" she was tapping into her scripture bank. And when we were just sorrowful and crying and sitting there in silence, we were living on this foundation of "but God," even though we didn't know it. Then, all of a sudden, one day, it just happened. Clearly, God spoke to Danielle and spoke to me in different ways. I don't want to say he explained himself, but he was gracious enough to tell us why we were going to go through that season.

For me, he led me to Revelation, chapter 12, where it talks about how the dragon was going to come and attack Christ, and God took the child. But in that scripture, we get Revelation chapter 12, verse 11, which talks about how they overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the words of our testimony. By knowing that God sacrificed his son for us, he basically said, "I know exactly what you're going through. I've been touched in the same way that you've been touched."

And Harper ultimately is my child. Out of sovereignty, I protected you. I protected Danielle from things you will not know. But ultimately, this testimony will be used to encourage others. There's another scripture in Job that says, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him." Just because you're slayed does not mean I don't have a plan. And so I'm sovereign. Trust me. I can reckon with that lady, God taking her baby, and the dragon was there to attack that baby. That scripture about overcoming by the blood of the Lamb and the words of testimony immediately healed my heart. It was just instantaneous because I felt like God could relate to what we were going through, and he had a plan for it. And he spoke to Danielle.

Speaker 2

What'd that look like for you, Danielle?

Speaker 4

Well, when I was crying out to God saying, you know, you don't know how I feel. What type of God would do this? You say that you love me. How dare you.

Speaker 2

So you're expressing everything. You're laying it out.

Speaker 4

Yes. Leading up to this, I was one of those people that I felt like I couldn't sense God speaking. That's never happened.

Speaker 2

Is it audible?

Speaker 4

Is this. Is it that I would tell him. But when I was out praying at. At the chapel, God said what? Howard said, no, I do know how you feel. I lost my only son for you.

Speaker 1

Gave him.

Speaker 4

Gave him, yeah, for you, for your sake. So I knew how you feel and said some other things and reminded me about how busy I was and God trying to get my attention for things. But I was, like you said, making an idol out of my career. Making an idol out of what I wanted to do at the time.

And so that day I felt like was the first day I actually heard God speak to me, like, in my spirit. But then I kept going to chapel, and he's.

We decided after that we're not having any kids. We tried the two painful workout.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we're in pity party mode. Like, it's so good.

Speaker 4

Even our families were impacted heavily. So we're like, this is too much for everybody. It's too much for us for sure. It's too much for everybody else. We tried. It didn't work out. Let's just move on with our wonderful lives without any kids.

So at chapel, probably maybe two weeks after all of this, God led me to Genesis and he said at this time, next year you have a son. I read it like, no.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

No way. So that was maybe October, and we had a son the next year, October 21st. Yes.

But God did tell me about his sovereignty. He reminded me about, you know, your works are like filthy rags. Just because you look good on paper does not determine, like, my hand, you know, I'm God.

So I was like, oh, okay. Got it.

Speaker 3

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Speaker 2

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Speaker 3

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Speaker 1

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Speaker 3

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Speaker 2

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I'm always amazed as you're talking about that foundation. We've talked about that a lot in the last two days. Of being in God's word, of praying together, of knowing who he is and going back to the foundation.

Had you not had that, if you guys didn't go to God, if you didn't pour out your heart, what would you be like right now?

Speaker 1

You know, I just. I don't know if we would even be together, to be candidly honest. You know, grief is. Grief is something. You know, grief is jarring in many ways. And what we found through coaching couples through grief, God's used our testimony to allow us to coach couples through grief is when you go through grief, people want answers. And a lot of the answers are unexplained. It's like, why does. You know, why do bad things happen to good people? Is what you often find through grief and mourning.

What we find is couples turn away from each other for those answers. And then couples do not depend. This is probably, I think, the biggest thing with Spiritual Foundation. They don't know each other spiritually enough to trust each other with their vulnerabilities. And so if Daniel and I had never prayed with each other, read scripture to understand that she studies her Word and I study my Word, you don't have the rapport to pull each other through those type of moments spiritually.

Sometimes we found that couples lean on the pastor and resent their husband because he doesn't empathize with the pain the way the pastor was able to. Because they don't have any spiritual connection, my spiritual connection has always been with my under shepherd, the pastor, vice versa. They lean on co-workers. Well, she really gets my pain and she's there as a listening voice. And my wife is just closed down and shut off. So they begin to seek this spiritual connection and external influences. That just brings a big crack in the foundation that turns into a valley in the foundation. They don't know how to find their way back.

So prior to life happening, because life's going to happen to everybody, it's going to happen if you live long enough. Prior to that, it is critical that you begin to lay a solid foundation. It’s building your house on rock so that when it gets windy and when the storms blow and when the rain hits, for that was our storm and we've had plenty of them. You know how to put your raincoat on together. You know how to dig into the trenches. You know how to cover each other even though the winds blow. Why? Because you have a foundation that's built on rock.

If we had not had that, we would have been on sinking sand for sure. So from when we started dating at 18 and 19 and started praying, that saved us for 12 years later when we couldn't foresee we would lose our son. And so it's critical, it is not passive to think that you cannot pray, read the word, and build a spiritual, intimate connection. It is critical.

Speaker 2

What about the couple who's never done that? And they've been married maybe 20 or 30 years, but they have never had that foundation.

How do you coach couples? Where do they start?

Especially if one is like, hey, let's do this. And the other is like, wait, what?

Speaker 4

I think you should start by having that conversation about what levels of comfort you both have with praying. Because sometimes people don't want to. They're not comfortable praying out loud. They're not comfortable talking about what their true prayer request of their heart are.

So I think talking about what they're comfortable with and then just starting with no pressure. It's just light and easy. It doesn't have to be significant. You don't need to use big words. It doesn't have to be long and perfect. You just, you know, take time, take turns. Maybe pray for me. I'll pray for you. Is there anything in your mind, anything bothering you? Do you mind if I pray?

You know, getting that agreement with each other, like, hey, does this work for you? And even if the other person says, I don't want to be a part of it, that doesn't mean, you know, the initial spouse can't pray for them. You can still pray in your quiet time alone.

And I think over time that will encourage them. I think God will work on their heart and soften their heart to be part of it.

Speaker 1

And there's safety in the multitude of counselors. So, you know, get a mentorship couple, whoever, somebody that you admire, one of the skyscraper couples that we talk about. Bring resources into your life that help. The reason why our book is a workbook is because there's a lot of practical application things in that book to help you begin to introduce and take baby steps towards building on your communication, building on whether it's just life application studies or discussion questions. They help you because building your spirit and building on any type of relationship, even if it's physical, starts with baby steps.

You know, it may just be, let's say grace. We don't ever say grace, and that may grow into, well, let's just read a chapter of the Bible together. Let's read a scripture and talk about that scripture. What do you think about that scripture? I don't know what in the world they're talking about. What do you think? Having these little conversations just builds connection.

You know, it's like if you want to introduce your wife to sports or your wife wants to introduce you to sewing or whatever it is. At first, it's jarring. Like sports— I don't know. I don't ever watch sports. But it may just take one article or one story or one project to make the person start to empathize with, well, I can see why you like that.

And so, just as Daniel said, there's really no pressure, but it really should be baby steps. Don't try to swallow the whole Bible and feel like you have to be a pastor or go to seminary. Pick a scripture, you know, and say, what does John 3:16 even mean to you? We both go to church, but what do you think about that scripture? Do you even get it right?

Speaker 2

I like that honesty of God.

Speaker 3

Is that something you guys do on a daily basis? I know you got two boys. Oh, man, you got a busy life.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Most couples, even in the church, don't do this. They may go to church together. Actually, statistics say they go to church together maybe once a month.

Speaker 1

Wow.

Speaker 3

1.3 times a month now is sort of normal for sure. The average Christian couple in America. You guys are talking about something totally different than most couples do.

So the baby step would look like what? Because I know you guys. What? You pray every day. You read the scripture every day.

Where would you tell a couple what's a baby step? Just maybe start praying.

Speaker 4

Yeah, start praying. Or like Howard said, just take one scripture. Sign up for the Bible app.

Speaker 2

Easy.

Speaker 4

It's easy. They're applicable. Like daily reading plans that people could hop on. That's not super, you know.

Speaker 3

Yeah, the Bible app. And we're driving here today, and Ann got on me because I'm 10 days behind her in the Bible app.

Speaker 4

You can see it.

Speaker 1

What great accountability.

Speaker 3

She's like, yeah, you should be up with me. And I'm like, you're so fast. I'm 10 days behind.

And I wanted to talk about Ruth. I read about Ruth and Boaz today, and she's like, that was 10 days ago. I don't want to talk about it.

That was on the way in my studio.

Speaker 2

Hiding from Saul.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 3

But I mean, that very conversation shows, you know, we're in the word.

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

I mean, we're joking. We'll talk about it tonight. But that foundation, you call it the secret stability.

Speaker 1

Secret stability. You have to be intentional about it.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So couples are very intentional. I think about many. Sometimes you find that in marriage you may need to be intentional by date night. We got jobs, we got careers, we have kids. So every other Friday, we're going on a date. Right. You may have to be intentional about finances. Hey, listen, we're trying to save X over X amount of time. We're really going to have to not go to the movies as much. Right. Or whatever it is. There's intention there.

And spiritual intimacy is the same. It comes from intention. And that intention may be that we're going to read the Book of Ruth. Proverbs, we always say, is a great one for any couple to serve you. Listening. Read the book of Proverbs. There's 31 chapters. There's typically 31 days in a month, and just go through one chapter. It's so much conventional wisdom in there. You'll leave with something to talk about. And you also get every single day.

I would say, spiritually, it's fun to read. So if you're starting out in the foundation, you don't want to start out with the Book of Revelations. Right. You may not want to start out with Deuteronomy, but Proverbs is a good start. I would challenge couples to take one proverb and just read it. And don't feel like you got to even discuss it or exegete or any of that stuff. Just talk about it. It's a topic. Talk about it on a Friday night. Talk about it on Monday morning on your way to work. You don't have to talk about it every day per se. Sometimes that's intense for people.

You eat an elephant one bite at a time. Take your spiritual intimacy, and as you get excited about it, all of a sudden you'll start to realize that your husband and wife have a great perspective. I didn't think about that on the faith. Then you talk to your mentors about it, and they may add some perspective on the faith. Or you hear that message on your Sunday that you go to once a month. The pastor's talking about the same thing you read. It excites you about your spiritual intimate growth.

But it starts out as an infant. It's going to fall, you're going to crawl, it's going to spit up sometimes, like anything in life. So don't place teenager or adult expectations on an infant growth process for spiritual intimacy and watch it blossom.

Speaker 2

And I would add to pray. Be honest with God.

Speaker 1

Amen.

Speaker 2

You could say God, we don't even know what we're doing.

Speaker 4

That's right.

Speaker 2

We want to know you and we're going to do our best to get to know you there.

Speaker 4

Help us. Yes.

Speaker 2

He meets us. It's just that relationship.

Speaker 4

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

What a great day we just had with Howard and Daniel Taylor and their book again is called the Fundamentals of eight Essential practices of Successful Couples.

Speaker 2

And you can get the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com to get their book.

Hey, and we also wanted to let you know about a free guide that we want to give you. It's filled with helpful marriage wisdom from really real-life couples who've been where you are.

You can grab your copy today at familylife.com/marriagehelp.

Speaker 3

Again go to familylife.com marriage help for your free guide full of marriage tips.

Speaker 2

Family Life today is a donor supported ministry of family life accrue ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.