FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

You know, I think one of the hardest things to do in a Christian walk is suffer well. I don't suffer well.

Speaker 2

Does anybody? It's just hard, and it happens to all of us.

Speaker 1

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 2

And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us@familylifetoday.com this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 1

I think we're going to learn a little bit about how to suffer well. Today we got Jackie Gibson back for day two. Welcome back.

Speaker 3

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1

I mean, when you hear us say we're going to talk about suffering well, and you're our guest, what do you think?

Speaker 3

Yippee. Let's do it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, yesterday, if you didn't listen, go back and listen because, you know, we heard your story of losing your daughter Leah to stillbirth. As I listened yesterday, I thought, you are such an example of how to suffer well. I think you're a model. I'm not saying you didn't struggle because you explained that yesterday, but as you hear that, you know, if somebody came up to you and said, "Okay, how do I walk through a valley? How do I do it well?"

What are some of the first things that come to your mind to help them?

Speaker 3

Yeah, I mean, I think it would be hard if you put so much pressure on yourself to do things this perfect way, you know, to suffer well. As you just said, I don't know that anyone really suffers well.

Speaker 2

Where like, oh, let me go through my list, abc.

Speaker 3

If only there was a checklist of things I could do to suffer well.

Speaker 1

Well, you know, one of the things, I was thinking of so many when the trials hit, and they're really hard, like what you walk through, they walk away.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

They don't suffer well. They're like, "I didn't sign up for this." And so I blame God. I'm angry at God. And again, that's part of the journey. That's okay. But at the end of the day, they lose their faith and they walk away.

And you are strong. And again, I'm not saying you didn't go through a valley because you did and still do. But, yeah, talk about an example. Somebody did it well or is doing it well. Present tense and future tense. I think you're it. You're one of them.

Speaker 2

Do you think if we would have. It's been nine years. Layla, your daughter that was stillborn at 39 weeks. It's been nine years. If we would have talked to you at year two, would it have been more.

Speaker 3

I was absolutely more raw. Yes. I was still in the weeds. And, I mean, if there's been any way that I have suffered, well, it's all by God's grace.

I'm thankful, too, that I had a solid foundation and a foundation of having been taught the Scriptures over many years, a foundation of being connected to a church that were doing that. These are blessings I do not take for granted, and they are things that are outside of my control. By God's grace, I had been taught well and had been taught to expect suffering.

So in one sense, it was a huge shock. In another sense, I knew that Christians are not promised an easy walk this side of heaven; we should expect that there will be hard and sad things. Because look at our good shepherd who we follow. We are his sheep. He walked a path of suffering. He was the man of sorrows.

And so if we are following him, we too will suffer. In God's kindness, he's not wasting any of that suffering. He's transforming us more and more into the image of his Son. And that's a gift. It's a painful gift to receive.

Speaker 2

Painful gift, you're right.

Speaker 3

But it is a gift.

And I think even if you think of your own church experience, meeting other Christians, when you meet people who have scars, who have been through hard things, they resemble the Lord Jesus just that little bit more.

And that's a gift of the church.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

To have fellow sufferers. We're all on a pilgrimage. It's hard for all of us.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I'll never forget the time, and we've shared this before, but I was driving in the car listening to Tony Evans preach. He was talking about the foundation and how we need to build that foundation spiritually. He compared it to something profound. He's just such a good preacher, but he was emphasizing that you never see the people pouring the cement for the basement in the storm. They're not pouring the cement for the foundation during the storm; they're doing it before or after, when the skies are clear.

I remember as a young woman thinking that I need to make sure I build that foundation when the days are good and easy. It should be a consistent part of my life—being in the Word, being in fellowship, being with my friends, and praying regularly. Those things may sound simple, and we often think, "Yeah, we know, we know." But those are the very things that build that foundation so that when the storm comes, we're still standing strong. Absolutely, those of us who take the time to build that foundation will be prepared for whatever comes our way.

Speaker 3

You're just making me think, those of us who are parents, how we can be building those foundations for our children?

We know life for them is not going to be easy. They'll go through valleys of suffering.

So how can we be filling their hearts and minds with the truths of scripture that they will recall in those hard times?

Speaker 1

I mean, you have so many, I'm not kidding, great quotes in this book that we're underlining.

Let me read one to you. And then I know this is not your quote. It was from a doctor who said, "Suffering is not a question that demands an answer. It is not a problem that requires a solution. It is a mystery that needs a presence."

Speaker 2

Oh, that's so powerful.

Speaker 1

Talk about that presence.

Speaker 3

That was. We were meeting with a doctor who was helping us debrief after Layla's death, and he said that to us, my husband, and was sort of stunned.

Speaker 1

He said that.

Speaker 3

He said that. I don't know. I'm sure he's quoting someone, but I'm not sure who. So in the mystery of suffering, we can look for all the answers. But at the end of the day, we need Emmanuel, God with us in the valley. We need the Lord Jesus. And that is what I experienced through the death of Laila.

But more than anything else, it was Jesus who was my closest companion in grief. God had given me a husband. We were close in grief, too, and we could understand a lot of each other's grief, but there were parts that we couldn't understand. I was a mother. I had carried Laila. I had given birth. He obviously didn't have that experience. He had a different experience as a father, in some ways, maybe a lonelier experience.

I think, for fathers, and any fathers who are listening who have been through that, you may have felt that sort of neglect of people asking, "How's your wife? How is she doing through this loss?" That can be very lonely, I think, for husbands and for fathers who maybe don't get opportunities to talk about their grief as much as maybe their wives.

Speaker 1

Yeah. We had Eric Schumacher on a while back, and he wrote a book for husbands that are, you know, have gone through a miscarriage. Very helpful. So very different.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it is. So even if you have good companions in grief, like a spouse or friends in your church, there's still a loneliness in this experience of a miscarriage or a stillbirth.

And that's where the mystery of suffering needs a presence.

And of the Lord Jesus, who understands every part of our grief. Therefore, he's the only one that can bring true comfort.

Speaker 1

Now, was there a way that his Jesus presence was made known as well, through people? Because right after that quote, here's your next one.

The tears of friends became dear to you as they shared in your grief. So it's like there's the presence, literally, of Emmanuel.

And then is there a sense that community also brings the presence of God through people?

Speaker 3

Yes, very much so. It's the body. All the parts are showing up to do their job. So, yes, people showing up was a huge blessing and comfort, too.

Speaker 1

So if I'm a person that shows up, tell me what to do, tell me what not to do.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

What's helpful? Yeah. Well, maybe don't just show up at my door a week after the death of my baby. Unless you're dropping a meal off at the door.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

Being in touch. I would say things said that maybe miss the mark slightly, but are said with love and good intention is so much better than saying nothing. So silence is so much more painful than people making an effort. They don't know what to say. They're trying to help. Maybe sometimes it is a little bit unhelpful, but they're trying. They're showing up. That is so much better than someone who thinks, oh, I don't know what to say, so I'm just going to say nothing.

So turning up and acknowledging the loss, first of all, it really is that simple to say, "I'm sorry your baby died. I just want to acknowledge your deep loss. I'm sad with you." And then you think, oh, it's okay that I'm sad. My friends are saying it's okay. My family, they're joining us in the grief. They're weeping with us.

So showing up with emotional support, grieving with us was helpful. Showing up with practical support was incredibly helpful. I'm sure this is not new, but, you know, that question, "What can I do to help?" is impossible for someone to answer when they're grieving. But saying, "I'm gonna make a meal that you can freeze and I'll leave it on your doorstep on Tuesday afternoon," that is just such a gift, such a practical need to.

Speaker 2

And the fact that they're leaving it on the doorstep. I noticed that.

Speaker 3

Yeah. That's why I was joking before. You know, you don't want people knocking on the door turning up, can I come in for a chat? You might invite people in at the right time. You might really want to speak to someone. And that's where it's a gift.

I think it's the beginning of 2 Corinthians. When we've been afflicted and have received comfort from the Lord, we then will be able to pass on that same comfort we received.

And so the people that were very dear to me after Laila died were the other mothers who had been through this particular loss, who understood what I was going through. So that's a gift, too.

Speaker 2

I'm curious, how did you explain this first to your son, but now you've had other children since then, and do you talk about Laila? What is that like? And should a parent talk about the loss of that child?

Speaker 3

We do talk about Laila with our then littlest, Zach and Hannah. They know about their big sister Laila. They have the most incredible questions. They bring her up when I'm not even thinking about it.

So I would encourage parents, let your living children in, share these hard things with them because there's such opportunity to teach them about the hope of heaven. It points our family to our future inheritance that we're all hoping to go to one day because we have a family member who's already there.

So I think it can be scary. We don't want to expose our kids to all the hard things in this world. And yet that is where there's such an opportunity to give them the good treasures of the Bible.

Speaker 2

Can you give us, like, what does that sound like when you talk to them about, oh, you want to get real practical. I'm just thinking for parents, like, what do I say? How do I say it to our. Their siblings?

Speaker 3

Sure. And I wouldn't say there's a right way, obviously. And also I want to acknowledge that people will experience this loss in different ways. You know, for us, it was a late-term stillbirth. For others, it may have been a very early miscarriage. There's going to be wisdom in how you share about that, what you share.

Sadly, for miscarriages, often you don't know the gender. So do you name that baby? It's really difficult. So there's no right way to do it for us. We just share. I mean, we celebrate her birthday every March.

Yeah. We let all. St. Layla's Day. That's right. It falls on St. Patrick's Day. So we've renamed it St. Layla's Day. So that's one way marking anniversaries that you can bring your children into that. We let off helium, yellow helium balloons every year. Every year.

Speaker 2

I love. Why the yellow?

Speaker 3

Well, yellow, because as you will see from the COVID of the book, it's covered in daffodils you're watching yellow daffodils if you're watching. So Laila was stillborn in the spring when all the daffodils were blooming. And so the image of the daffodil became connected to Layla for us, more than it just being a beautiful flower. The fact that she died in the spring when all of these spring flowers are blooming was such a reminder to our family that winter can never hold back the spring. That after death, there is life. It's the way the Lord has made the world to work.

And so for Laila, after death, there is resurrection to look forward to. And that's our hope as Christians, and that's what we can talk to our kids about. Even as I was leaving Philadelphia to travel here, I saw in my yard already, tiny little daffodil bulb shoots pushing through the ground. I mean, there is still snow on the ground, but these shoots are starting to grow to remind us, even in the middle of winter, that spring is coming.

And in the same way, the new heavens and the new earth, it's coming. The Lord Jesus will return. And even when we're in the darkest, coldest winter, spring is coming.

Speaker 2

Such a good reminder.

Speaker 1

I mean, with that truth of the resurrection. Was there a time you can remember where. I have no idea. Where joy came back, where you felt a sense of.

Yeah, because I know you've written, and I know most people experience this after this moment in your life, everything was different. The lens of life was different. And I know Ann experienced that, especially when her sister died.

I can remember the day I heard her laugh, like the cackle laugh of Ann. That wasn't just a laugh. It was full of joy. She was in the garage, and I was in the family room, and I remember her belly laughing at something. And I thought, I haven't heard that in, like, two years.

Yeah, it had been about two years before I'd heard her laugh like that. So it was that valley that she had walked through. And again, it wasn't like it's back and never to be there again, but it was the beginning of, oh, joy is returning.

Speaker 2

Spring is coming.

Speaker 1

Was there something like that for you? Was it quite a while, or.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it takes a long time. And as you just said, the grief never goes away. It's going to be my companion for life. But the grief has definitely softened. It's not as sharp.

You do think after the death of a loved one, like your sister, like my daughter, I was convinced I will never laugh again. I will never enjoy the light moments of life; there's always going to be this heaviness. And even though I carry my grief with me, it's not as heavy anymore. I don't cry as much anymore, though I could, you know, and I will on anniversaries often, that's what brings it up.

But God doesn't leave us in our sorrow. He's always working on us and in our lives; he heals the brokenhearted. He binds up their wounds. And so I'm never going to be fully recovered from this loss. But certainly, the healing process has begun, and there is joy again.

Especially as Christians, we have this hope. We do not grieve as those without it. And that is good news. The resurrection is worth being joyful about and celebrating. That's true.

Speaker 2

What would you say to the people that are wondering, is my baby in heaven?

Speaker 3

Yeah, I had to wrestle with this because that was a hard question. I thought initially I was confident that she was in heaven. Then I had to think about it. How can I be sure? And I think there are a few answers to that question. It can be a complex answer as well.

I'll give you a simple answer. Just seeing in the Gospel, the way Jesus welcomes the little children, "Let the little children come to me, for to such as them belongs the kingdom of heaven." He welcomed them during his earthly ministry, and he welcomes them now.

So I'm confident that Leila's in heaven with the Lord Jesus. God has always been working through the Old Testament into the New, with families, to your parents, to your children. So I'm confident that I'll see Leila again, and they'll be happy reading.

Speaker 2

And there is something about reading Psalm 139, when it talks about God knitting our children together in our mother's womb. There's not a time He hasn't seen them, loved them, and known them from the time they came into conception. He knows them better than us. Better than us. So much better.

And I would say, too, that children are not at the age of accountability. And so they are with the Father in heaven.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And they didn't get a free pass. They still had to be washed by the blood of Christ.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

You know, they were born into a sin or conceived in sin into a sinful world. They still don't get to heaven on their own merit.

Speaker 2

Good point.

Speaker 3

By Christ's blood, too.

Speaker 2

That's good.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah. It's interesting, you know, listening to you with your title. You are still a mother. I lost a little brother. I was seven. He was five and a half.

In fact, we were just. Ann and I took a little trip to my hometown. Both of us are from the same place, so we did sort of a fun thing a couple of weeks ago. We decided, let's go down and spend a night in a hotel in our downtown. We haven't been there in years, and both our families are not living there anymore.

We went to spots all around the town that were significant in our life. Where I first asked her out. We actually got to almost break into the church where we got married because it was closed.

Speaker 2

Well, a lady came and let us in.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we didn't break in, but I'm like, oh, the doors are locked. And Ann pushes the button.

"Anybody in there?"

Yeah, Sheila comes out and says, "Yeah, I'm one of the secretaries here. I listen to you guys. I've read your book. Oh, my goodness." She took a picture of us right where we stood on our wedding day.

Anyway, all that. And then I said to Ann, "You know something? My mom and I did, because I didn't have a dad. It was just my mom and I. Almost every week after church, we went to my brother's grave."

Speaker 2

Answered, which I didn't even know they did that every single week.

Speaker 1

So we drove out there in a downpour and got out of the car without an umbrella.

Speaker 2

It was so interesting because we're sitting there, I'm like, how do you. Like, where do we go? Do you know where it is? He gets out of the car, walks directly to it. Remembered. You haven't been there since you were how old?

Speaker 1

I don't want to date myself, but it's been a long time.

Speaker 3

That's exposing, but.

Speaker 1

I mean, that little trek every week for us was significant. And I can just remember my mom every week, putting flowers there. She was still a mother to that boy who was no longer with us, but was with Jesus. That's in the soul of a mom.

Speaker 3

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1

Is that how you came up with the title?

Speaker 3

Yeah, I'm sure it's been said before, but, yeah. No, I just. This was a title I had before I wrote the book.

Speaker 1

Did you really?

Speaker 3

That was important to me. I had nothing to show for my motherhood of my daughter Laila. And yet I was still her mother.

And I will be for the rest of my life. She's still my daughter, even though she's not here.

And I don't get to care for her. And that's the sadness.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

But, yes, I am still her mother. Always will be.

Speaker 2

And it's interesting for me to be with our son and daughter-in-law as they talk about their three miscarriages with their four kids. The kids all know their names; they name them all, and it was an early miscarriage, but still, they're an important part of their lives.

The kids all talk about them, and they have two adopted kids and two biological kids, but they're a part of their family, part of their legacy.

Speaker 3

Isn't that great?

Speaker 2

And will be a part. And they know they will be a part of their future and they will know them by name in heaven.

It's such a comfort, it's such a hope that we have in the Gospel that Jesus allows us to have that hope because of his death and resurrection.

That is just the good news. Such good news.

Speaker 3

It is good news.

Speaker 1

Now, have you had conversations with women that have had abortions? I know you write a little bit about it.

Speaker 3

Yeah, you know, I haven't had anyone directly share about that, but that's another piece to this kind of a story that I can only imagine how hard that is to wrestle with.

But they are mothers to those children and they will carry that with them too.

And that grief is complex. I can only imagine.

Speaker 2

Me too. Well, in our time remaining, I would love it if you would pray for our listeners.

Speaker 3

Sure.

Speaker 1

And let me say this before you pray, we'd love to pray for you. I mean, if you have needs and you'd like us to pray for you, we have a prayer team that will do that.

Familylife.comprayforme and we'll, you know, send us your prayers and we'll pray for you.

But we'd love to have you pray. That'd be a blessing.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I'd love to, Father. In heaven, I just pray for anyone listening or watching who has been through the death of a child in the womb maybe years and years ago, and it's all being brought up again or maybe very recently still in the rawness and the shock and the despair.

Father, thank you that your everlasting arms are underneath each of these women. And we thank you for the hope we have in the Lord Jesus, that He is the man of sorrows, that he is the closest companion in grief. So there is no reason to despair because Christ draws near and he has given us hope in his death and resurrection, that one day we will once again see these precious little ones who we miss so much today. And we long for that day.

And we pray, come, Lord Jesus, that we thank you for this hope. Father, for anyone feeling lonely in grief, will you put people around them to love and care, especially for these mothers who are grieving the death of their babies? And will you give them hope and will you bind up their wounds?

And these things we ask in Jesus' strong name. Amen.

Speaker 2

We've been listening to Jackie Gibson and her book, *You Are Still a Hope for Women Grieving a Stillbirth or Miscarriage*. And let me just say, this is just a hard topic, but an even more difficult thing to live through.

I know a lot of women who have gone through a miscarriage or a stillbirth, and I don't always know how to help them. This could be a great way to support them—by sending this book, by loving on them. Because what it really is, it's the hope of the gospel, and we can trust Jesus with them, but we don't always know what to do.

So we're going to end this program a little differently at the end. So don't go away.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but if you want to get the book, it's in the show notes. You can go to familylifetoday.com and buy the book there. And like Ian said, we ended this one just a little different. So we're going to go back to the program now and let you hear how this day ended with Jackie.

And let me just say this because I've actually said this many times from the pulpit and then off the stage with men and women who are carrying regrets and decisions they made before Christ. They don't know if they're forgiven. You are forgiven as you confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior. The blood of Jesus covers your sin and the resurrection of Christ is now yours. You will be raised to Christ just like your child.

And so if you've never said to Jesus, "I believe," today could be your day. You didn't know it when you started this program, but today is your day of salvation. So let me invite you, wherever you are right now, walk out of the gym, walk out of the laundry room, pull the car over to the side of the road and just say, "Jesus, I receive your forgiveness. I believe you are the Christ, the Messiah, the anointed one that God sent to die for my sin. And you rose from the dead to give me life. And I believe. And I will follow you the rest of my life. And I receive your forgiveness for my sin now in the present and in the future because of who you are. Jesus, I believe, transform me. Starting right here, right now. In the name of Jesus, I pray. Amen."

Tell you what, I hope this was your day because you have a new life, starting right now. It's the greatest thing you'll ever experience. Not gonna say it's easy. Not gonna say you won't walk through valleys. But you made the best decision of your life.

Speaker 2

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