FamilyLife Today®

Dr. Kathy Koch: There's way too many parents today, and I'll just be bold and say this, who believe that the child's job is to perform so that they look good to their peer group on social media, etc. So kids become performers, and kids become human doings when we're human beings. There's no freedom in that.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

We got Kathy Koch in the studio. I want to jump into your book, which is *Start with the Heart: How to Motivate Your Kids to Be Compassionate, Responsible, and Brave, Even When You’re Not Around*. I want to go there.

But I do want to do this because I think you're going to be golden at this. I wrote down in my notes, top three things. I’m just going to throw them at you. Whatever comes to your mind when I say top three things middle school kids are struggling with.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Believing that they're worth anything to anyone would be one of them. Feeling hopeless and helpless and invisible and in the way. So I have no value. Some of them have said to me, Dave, that I know I have value. God made me. Jesus died for me. But I don't feel valuable here. So the struggle is real in their environment of a home or a school and even maybe a youth group. So I think that would be huge.

Ann Wilson: Parents should stop doing what?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Comparing their children to anybody else. When you empty the backpack and you have a child with a 94 and a child with an 87, or a kid just ran a track meet, you don't say, "How did the other kids do?"

Because you're not raising anybody but your kid. As soon as you say, "How did the other kids do?" your kid with the 94 is going to feel like it's not good enough unless it was the best of the best scores. So comparison is already on social media. It's already the mirror effect, if you will, but we don't need to be comparing. We need to raise the children we were given and we don't need to worry about where they stand in a hierarchy with other kids.

Ann Wilson: Here is one. What are the questions that parents are asking?

Dr. Kathy Koch: "How do I get my kid off the phone?" would be one, which I know you two have strong feelings about that as well. "How do I get him to listen to me? How do I get him to be obedient with the phone, turn in the phone, stop gaming?" A lot of technology questions I think would be huge.

"How do I get them to answer more than a grunt?" A lot of our parents do care deeply about their children and they want to know how school was. They want to know their kids. And of course kids are grunting and saying, "Okay, fine, good," and not elaborating. So that's a big issue.

Dave Wilson: What would you say is the question or two that the parents should be asking?

Dr. Kathy Koch: "How can I help you?" So asking your child that. Not "Can I help?" Because that's yes or no. And kids are, they want to be independent even though they know they need the parent. So, "How can I help you?" And then maybe even follow that up with a multiple choice. "Do you need space? Do you need supplies? Do you need an answer? Do you need guidance?" Sometimes we would follow up with a multiple choice option there, but, "How can I help you?"

I think when kids come to us and we know they're confused, I think we ask, "How did you arrive at that conclusion? What makes you think that is true?" If they come to you with a gender question or a competition question like, "I just don't feel strong enough or smart enough," or "I wish I could run faster." Well, what makes you think that would be good for you?

What makes you think that is true? Who's taught you that? Because they're listening to somebody. I think that would be huge. Another question that I love asking young people is, "What happens if you're wrong?"

If a kid comes to you and they think that they can change their gender, or they think that they should drop an advanced chemistry course and just have a study period, or they don't want to go out for a spring sport this year but they've always played a sport, and you say, "Well, what if you're wrong?" Because I think that discernment helps the kid think things through maybe in another way. And now the parent is the one who's in the conversation to guide the conversation rather than asking Siri or Google or even a friend at school.

Ann Wilson: That's so interesting because I just flashed back to being a senior in high school. I was a track runner and I remember telling my dad, "I'm not going to run this year." My first year in six years, I'm not going to run. Of course my dad was a coach. He coached Dave. He was really involved in sports. Not a track coach, but he was a coach who loved athletics.

If he would have asked me a question like that and put it on me, it would have changed everything. Instead, he said, "I'm not going to talk to you until you change your mind because you have to go out." And he didn't. He didn't talk to me for seven days. And I remember saying to him, "Now you're just being immature." I was a pretty spunky kid, Kathy. You can tell that. That's why Dave married me. But what if he would have given me like, "Okay, what would happen if you don't do that? And what would it look like if you don't?" Just to pose some questions. That might have gotten me to thinking why I don't want to go out. And I could have answered that, and it was because of fear. And I didn't want to fail. So there's so much more underneath some of the things our kids are doing and asking.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Absolutely.

Dave Wilson: I got to ask one last question before we jump into *Start with the Heart*.

Dr. Kathy Koch: We're starting. This is all in *Start with the Heart*, actually.

Dave Wilson: It would be this because I know a lot of our listeners, this is top three probably. How do I ignite my child's spiritual faith? That's their greatest desire. I want him or her when they're adults to walk with God. They're a middle school kid or they're, what do I or don't I do?

Dr. Kathy Koch: The first thing that comes to mind shouldn't be hard, and that is that we model a vibrant relationship with the God of the Bible. We wake up talking about Him. They see us honor the Word of God. They see us pull the Word out randomly on a Thursday morning, not just a Wednesday night, Sunday morning.

We talk about what we read in the Word. We talk about the experience we had in our prayer walk. I think we teach them how the Holy Spirit leads. One of the questions a lot of young people are asking me is, "Dr. Kathy, you talk about the Holy Spirit guiding you and I've heard my mom or my pastor talk about the leading of the Holy Spirit. But Dr. Kathy, I don't know how that works. How do I know if it's I just want to do it versus God is telling me how to do it?"

I think, how do we ignite? We teach and train, we don't tell and yell. That's again part of the passion of the ministry. I think we teach and we train. I think we ask, "What would you like to know about spiritual development or spiritual growth, or where are you frustrated in any part of your relationship with God?"

To let them, if they're secure with us, if they trust us, if there's no fear, then if I ask a son or daughter, "Is there anything that you'd like to grow into? Is there any part of your walk with God that's dissatisfied?" then they could be honest with us. And then we say, "How can I help with that? Are you ready to want some help?" So I think we're very bold in that way.

But I'll say again, it starts with us modeling a vibrant desire to be in a relationship with God and the fact that He matters greatly to us. He is not a Sunday morning, Wednesday God. He's a 24/7, 365. I could say much more, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Ann Wilson: Because we're talking about your book *Start with the Heart*, I think that is like a little segue. All of those things are connecting with your kid's hearts when we know our kids. I think those are so good.

Dave Wilson: What does that mean, "Start with the Heart"?

Dr. Kathy Koch: To prioritize your heart's relationship and the love that you have, which I pray is unconditional. There's nothing they can do to earn it or to lose it. And it's not that they perform for us. They are with us.

Securing the heart is, there's nothing that you can do that would cause me to walk away. There's nothing that you can do that would cause me to walk toward you more. We just are. We are family and we are it. And we're in this for the long haul just as God is with us for the long haul.

So it's honesty, dependability, responsibility. It's asking to be forgiven, expecting that to happen but not demanding it in a rude and a bossy kind of a way. It's being present. Securing the heart happens too when we like our children.

I don't know if you've had children or grandchildren tell you this, but sometimes when I interview children they'll say, "Well, my dad has to love me. He doesn't have a choice. Or God has to love me and I love that He loves me. But Dr. Kathy, I wish my dad would like me."

And then when I ask children, and even back to the day when I taught second graders forever ago, "Well, what would cause you to feel liked?" The majority of the answer would be, "They asked to play with me."

So rather than the kid always saying, "Hey, Dad, you want to shoot hoops?" or "Mom, could we play checkers?" or "Grandma, do you have time to color with me?" when the adult approaches the child and says, "Hey, do you want to color together?" or "Do you want to shoot hoops?" or "Would you like to play checkers?" the kid feels noticed in that moment. And the child feels valued in that moment.

And then they see the parent sacrifice. When children say, "Daddy put his phone down and Daddy went outside with me," that's huge. And I think that's huge between a husband and a wife when you prioritize and when you sacrifice. I think kids feel something very different. Certainly that's love, but it's also like. And when you're liked, you're much more likely to be obedient. When you're liked, you're much more likely to want to be present in that relationship. I think it changes everything.

Dave Wilson: It’s interesting. You mentioned marriage. Ann's latest book was about how to speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him. One of the stories we tell in there is I was with my men's group on a trip and I said to them in the car, "Question number one, do you feel like your wife loves you?" I know all their wives. I know their families. Every guy within five seconds said, "Yep. Wife loves me."

Second question, "Do you feel like your wife likes you?" Every guy within five seconds, "Nope." And they're all like, "Wilson, what's this about? What do you say next?" Isn't that interesting? They all said, "I think she's disappointed. I know she loves me. I know she's not leaving. We're in a covenant of marriage. But I feel like every day she's critiquing me. She's trying, it's like I'm a fixer-upper." And so I think we do that in our marriage and I think our kids feel the same way.

Ann Wilson: I know we do because what happens with kids, and this is a good thing as parents, we're training our kids. We're teaching our kids. We're training them. But what happens is we do yell. Sometimes we fall into these bad habits, especially when teenagers especially are having an attitude or they get, we say it, lazy.

I think what happens is we stop speaking life to our kids or asking them great questions. And so I think so many kids would say, "Yeah, my parents don't like me because they're always yelling at me or they're always telling me what to do or not listening to me."

I started this thing last year with a couple of our grandkids. And the reason I did it again this year is because they said, I said, "What was the favorite thing you did all summer?" And they said, "It's when we walked the river with you." And I'm like, "What?" They said, "Yeah, when you told us, 'Let's go walk this river.'" They were four at the time, they were three and four. But it was rapids and it was only knee-deep, but it was an adventure and it was risky and I was saying, "I know you can do this. It's going to be fun." And I pursued them.

So you're saying those are the kind of things that when we pursue kids, we're asking them questions, looking them in the eye and even asking, that's the chapter title, "How are you doing?" That's getting into their hearts.

Dr. Kathy Koch: Yes. And what's so important in all of this is that we have to believe that our children's job is not to be excellent so we look excellent. Part of the fear here, part of the yelling and part of the we choose to distance ourselves from family members is there's way too many parents today, and I'll just be bold and say this, who believe that the child's job is to perform so that they look good to their peer group on social media, etc. So kids become performers and kids become human doings when we're human beings. There's no freedom in that. It's really back to you and your dad and the whole "I don't want to play run track, it's I'm fearful that I'll disappoint you." And you perceived that you didn't want your dad disappointed.

So can parents recognize that they weren't given children so that they would look good? They weren't given children to perform for them. Children are going to be children and they're going to make mistakes because that's how children learn. And we have to separate that out. We can teach and train the very best that we can and we can motivate and we can pray for them and they're still children. And that's just the reality.

Dave Wilson: Let me ask you, you said earlier the child is longing and we want them to feel loved and accepted for who they are. Let's go there. What if they're making decisions, especially now middle school, high school, maybe older, that we disagree with? Let's say, "I'm leaving the faith. I don't believe, Mom and Dad, what you've taught me." As a parent, how do we love them in that?

Dr. Kathy Koch: We love them obediently and I don't say that lightly. We're called to love. We're called to stand in the trenches with them and to teach the truth. Love is true. Let's look at First Corinthians 13. What if we took that out of the wedding ceremony or at least leave it there, leave it in the marriage, leave First Corinthians 13 in the marriage, but let's add it to the parenting piece?

So love is enduring and love is kind and love is patient and love is true and tells the truth. So we say to our kids, "I'm disappointed." You have a right to your disappointment. I tell this to parents all the time. You have to be careful what you say and you're careful how you communicate that. You don't want the kid to be shamed and blamed and choose to then isolate. But you have a right to say, "Whoa, that's somewhat surprising given the way that we're raising you."

And then I think we earn the right to say, "What makes you think that's true?" or "Why is that a good idea?" Or again, first question maybe is, "Why do you think this is good for you?" Because I can almost guarantee you, Dave, they heard something. They overheard something. They saw something. They experienced someone or something and they've got this idea up here. And they're telling you. They could have asked you, but rather than asking you, which gives you authority they don't want you to have, they tell you.

And then we need to say, "Whoa." I think again you can say that you're surprised. If you're raising children with values and they go against the values, you better be surprised. If your goal as a mom and a dad is to raise up children to believe these things, if you have family values—I write in this book and in other books—know your values and don't assume your kids are going to pick up on them simply because they live with you. So communicate your values. We are pro-life. Here's why. We are generous in times of want and plenty. Here's why.

You have values and you teach them and model them before your children. And if they contradict those values—which again the Scripture wins, God's ways are the right and the best ways—when they go against that, I think because the culture is chaotic and the liar is loud, I don't think we should panic or be shocked that that's happening even if we feel like we're doing a really good job within the walls of our home. So we say, "No, boy, that's surprising. Where'd that idea come from? It didn't come from within the walls of this house."

And then again they might grunt at you that first day and might not answer that question. But ideally we hang with them. And if your love is unconditional, you still go out for ice cream. You still do your daddy-daughter donut date. You're still acting like you always have. You love them. Absolutely. And if you don't, if you separate, you'll have fewer opportunities to influence their becoming beliefs, if I can put it that way.

So let's recognize to the parent, grandparent listening, these are hard things and we know that there's some trauma and some fear in that. We don't want you to parent out of fear. Again, this is why we're here. It's why we have the Holy Scripture, which is accurate and much more practical than a lot of people think.

And one more thing would be we don't make it about us. In this moment where they come to us and, "I'm wondering about dropping out of school. I was looking up a GED's really easy and then I can just go be the entrepreneur," or again gender or premarital sex or something really big and ugly, the hairy spider in the corner. Those are really scary things. But we don't panic and we still love them strong in those moments. We still hang with them.

What if we also said the good things that are still going on? So in other words, here, let me go here. If they say that they think they might want to change their gender, it's in the back of your mind and it's in your prayer corner, if you will, but you still talk about, "In what ways were you creative today? Hey, Brian, we're raising you to be generous. How were you generous today?" We still talk about all the other things because otherwise all they are is a walking billboard for gender dysfunction and we don't want that.

Ann Wilson: And you've written a book about gender.

Dr. Kathy Koch: We have, called *Raising Gender Confident Kids*, because we want that. My co-author is Dr. Jeff Myers and we're excited about that book. And we wrote that because the confusion is real and we wanted to give a tool to the parents that are really concerned because we don't want them parenting out of fear. There is wisdom in these days of confusion.

Dave Wilson: And you start this book with "Relationships Rule." As a parent, what does that mean and why is that important?

Dr. Kathy Koch: Because they've got to know you and you've got to know them. And it's not about performing, it's about relating. It's about love and like and passion and forgiveness and accountability, it's about character really in that thing. And they're not going to listen to you if they don't think you know them. They're really not. Why would they? There's a chatbot out there that they think knows them better than a mom. And that's really a frightening thing. Or the lyricist of that song that they love, they think, "They get me." Exactly. So what it is is hanging out. It's being present without your phone. It's inviting them to cut the carrots even if it takes longer for the salad to be prepared. Who cares? And you make the effort to ask one of your sons to go with you on the errand you're going to run that night. Even though you might be an introvert, you might want the quiet, you might want to listen to a podcast, I get that. But you're a parent in the moment and you've got only a few moments left. You sacrifice yourself again and you say, "Hey, come with me to the store. Let's have some talk time."

Ann Wilson: I think too, figure out what are the best ways and the best times to get to know your kids. I know for us, laying down at night praying for them, we end up, it could start out with five minutes, it could be an hour. And kids don't want to sleep when they're younger and you can lay there for an hour just talking. And when they get older, it's a little different.

Dave Wilson: They get older, it's the food at the kitchen counter at midnight.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and just asking them, "What's going on?" But I love how practical you get. Is there anything else we can do as parents to get to their hearts, to really know them, especially with a teen that's a little more suspicious like, "Wait, what are you doing?"

Dr. Kathy Koch: Right. I think us being appropriately vulnerable is valuable. Sharing age-appropriate things from your past. Don't make something about you in the moment. It's about them. But then later you look for the opportunity to talk about maybe a vulnerable time in your life and how did you handle that fear and who did you go to for wisdom? How did you become resilient so that you would bounce back from that difficult situation? I think that's cool.

I think talking to the children one-on-one. We have a tendency, right, at dinner, there's seven kids at the table and "How was school?" and they go around the table. No kid in front of the siblings is going to talk about the fact that they were teased in school or that they feel like they made a fool of themselves in front of everybody at the whiteboard.

So there's ideally we take time for those one-on-one conversations. Bedtime's huge. They don't like looking at our faces if they're going to disappoint us. They tell us that. They don't want to see your face when they make you mad. So they like the dark. Even men and women have told me they're more vulnerable in the dark in the same way. Going for a walk and kicking a rock because they can't look at you while they're doing that. And it's easier, especially for boys, to be vulnerable. Boys will always tell you more when they're busy doing something. They're more shoulder-to-shoulder communicators where women are more eyeball-to-eyeball with the interrogation at the kitchen table. So I think you're right, Ann, about choosing the right time and the space.

And what if we did open-ended questions like, "What do you want me to know about you today?" What would they say? I remember doing jury duty forever ago and there were these two men and they were in suits and they had the leather briefcases. The courtroom in my city is right in downtown near all the high-rise buildings. So my guess is that they were lawyers and when we were done they were going to go, or accountants and they were going to go to some building.

And I watched these two men begin to interact as we were waiting to see if we would be needed. This one guy says, "Say, so what's your life all about?" And the guy pulled out pictures and said, "I'm married to the finest woman in Fort Worth. And then could I show you my kids? Like, they're amazing." And then the other guy is like, "Oh, my wife, like, she's better than yours and let me show you my kids."

And I watched them have a very meaningful, relatively deep conversation about family. And I know if they would have said, "So what do you do for a living?" they would have talked for 20 minutes about being an accountant or a lawyer or a fill in the blank. But they talked about family because there was this open-ended opportunity to do so. So what if we "What do you want me to know about you? Tell me about your day" is again an open-ended question? I love asking kids, "When were you curious today? When did you feel hopeful today? When did you feel helpless today and how did you handle it?" So asking about their heart, right? Going to that place. And it's again, and you don't have to have all the right answers. You don't have to know what to say when they say "I was helpless in this minute." Then you say, "Well, how did you handle it?" And God's going to lead you.

Ann Wilson: I really love being with Kathy Koch.

Dave Wilson: I knew you were going to say that. Of course you did.

Ann Wilson: You guys, it's like this firehose of information that I'm like, "Wait, what'd she say again?" It's like I need to listen to that over and over.

Dave Wilson: And I'm like, "I don't know if I can remember it all." And neither can you. That's why you go get the book. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the link in the show notes, and get her book, *Start with the Heart*, which is *How to Motivate Your Kids to Be Compassionate, Responsible, and Brave, Even When You’re Not Around*.

Ann Wilson: And we'll have her back on tomorrow, so make sure you're back with us.

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Ann Wilson: And we'd be so honored to have you on the journey with us. We really would. So here is the question: Will you join us today?

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FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Crew Ministry. 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.

Ann Wilson: Dave, what’s one question about intimacy that you’ve always wanted to ask, but you were too afraid?

Dave Wilson: I’m afraid to answer the question you just asked me. Maybe now’s not the appropriate time. I mean, intimacy is something that’s hard to talk about.

Ann Wilson: Well, what if the questions you’re too embarrassed to ask are the ones your marriage actually really needs answered? And that’s the topic of *Marriage After Dark*, which is FamilyLife’s newest podcast where a real married couple answers all the questions couples secretly Google about sex. If you want a stronger connection or deeper intimacy and a healthier marriage, this is your space. And right now, it’s only available to a select FamilyLife audience. For more, go to FamilyLife.com/MarriageAfterDark. I’ll tell you, the conversation your marriage needs shouldn’t stay in the dark.

Dave Wilson: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife, a Crew Ministry. 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.