FamilyLife Today®

Howard Taylor: The secret to me in a long marriage for us is not that you're perfect, but you become professional forgivers. The longest marriages have forgiven more than short marriages for sure. Everybody needs space for grace.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

I was thinking about this last night. I think I know you are the most grace-giving person I've ever met.

Ann Wilson: What? Come on! What do you mean what?

Dave Wilson: That's so nice of you. You are so gracious to me and to others, maybe not other drivers, but in every other regard. That's hilarious.

But I was thinking about it as we're going to talk about the fundamentals of marriage. When I was reading it, I thought I am married to the most loving, tender person.

Ann Wilson: It wasn't always that way. I was going to say that's miraculous because I think I was the opposite when we first got married. I feel like I was super judgmental, but thank you. That means a ton.

Dave Wilson: No, I mean it. I watch you with strangers and I watch you with our grandkids. It's just inspiring. I just wanted to start today saying that.

Ann Wilson: That's so sweet of you.

Dave Wilson: And you're Howard and Danielle Taylor, who are in the studio. I was reading your workbook even last night, The Fundamentals of Marriage. You talk about a grace-filled marriage and the four forgiveness factors. That hit me yesterday when I was reading it, and I thought I just want to start today saying that.

Ann Wilson: This is the best program ever!

Howard Taylor: Thank you for having us. We talk to older married couples and we call them skyscraper couples—marriages that are 50, 40, and even 30 years.

Ann Wilson: This is us! We're a skyscraper couple! See the confetti? Forty-three years! Looking back, forty stories tall.

Howard Taylor: So when we talk to these couples, everybody always asks, "What's the secret? What's the secret?" One lady stood out to me because she said, "The secret to me in a long marriage is not that you're perfect, but you become professional forgivers."

The longest marriages have forgiven more than short marriages for sure. Everybody needs space for grace. What we love about grace is it's an intentional thing. It's like a gift that we give.

Sometimes when we ask for forgiveness and we say we're sorry, it has a negative connotation. It's painful to have to forgive somebody that's harmed you. When Danielle and I began in our marriage, Danielle would say, "I look at you how Christ looks at you now."

I needed my fair share of grace, but I see you through the eyes of how Christ sees you. I began to return that to her. When we thought about how Christ is, we realize we are messed up. Not just us, but Adam, the children of Israel, and everybody throughout the Bible really needed a great measure of grace.

It's almost appalling that I not be able to return that. I'm so thankful that Christ paid it all on Calvary. He did it all on Easter Sunday. We were talking about that off air.

But then when we get in the car with our spouse and they do something wrong, we're not willing to offer them that same Christ-like sacrifice where he takes pleasure in gracing us and covering our sins. Love covers a multitude of sins.

These types of things we begin to relish in because it makes us feel more Christ-centered and more attached to the savior that we serve. It's the reason why we call ourselves Christians. Those things come in grace.

Finally, there is a scripture that says everybody could love somebody that's good to them. What effort does that take? But what Christ challenges us to do is love those who despitefully use us, those who do wrong.

I could apply that to a coworker. It's very difficult to say that my wife is the one that despitefully used me in this season or my husband is the one that wronged me. Christ is challenging us to love them through that season as well because we all know marriage has peaks and valleys, no matter who you are.

Danielle Taylor: That's right. There were seasons in our marriage where we weren't very grace-giving. I was awful. Absolutely.

Howard Taylor: When we first got married, our communication was so bad. We were tearing each other apart. We were using our words as a weapon. We were very short, judgmental, and had unrealistic expectations.

As different things have come along, we've had a failed business where you could easily play the blame game. We lost our child. You could easily play the blame game there. A lot of people have fallen apart because of things like that. We've needed grace so much more during those times.

Ann Wilson: Talk to us about walking through that valley with your child.

Danielle Taylor: It was such a sad situation. It was so sad when I read that. When Howard and I got together, we were virgins for four years. We were college graduates and Christians. We just felt like we were doing this thing the right way.

We thought God was going to bless us. We deliberately held off for eight or nine years so that we could save up the money and bring this child in right.

We felt like our measures of success and the works of what we're doing were going to make us exempt from any type of bad news. Fast forward, I go into labor early, the baby's delivered, and he lives for four days. We thought this was not supposed to happen. It was twenty-four weeks.

Howard Taylor: Danielle had an incompetent cervix and didn't know it. Her cervix just thinned out and unfortunately we found ourselves in a turbulent situation in a hospital one day with this baby that we had planned for, saved for, prayed for, and had vision for.

We tried to pray it away and it wasn't going away. That baby was coming and he came. We tried to pray his life into longevity, but that wasn't going to be the outcome.

Our angel baby, Harper, passed away and really threw us into a spiritual spiral for sure.

Ann Wilson: What did that look like?

Danielle Taylor: We started going to prayer immediately after. Our church had a chapel that was open for prayer. But we just felt like God had abandoned us, had disappointed us, and let us down.

How could you do that to people that are doing it the right way? What kind of God would do that? That's what I thought at the time. I'm just laying it all out because you need to know my thoughts. Howard felt like he couldn't hear from God or talk to God.

Howard Taylor: For me, I was working at that time and Danielle was off of work. For the first time in my life, I didn't know what to say to God. I didn't feel like I was hearing from him anymore.

It was a very silent, quiet season. I just remember feeling like, "God, where are you? What are the answers?" I couldn't explain it. Having such a vision as a boy, it was paramount to me to be a great father and be all that I didn't have.

That caused me to do works to think I was going to get an outcome. That was a very immature perspective, but God met us. Because we had a strong spiritual foundation, that allowed Danielle and I to trust each other with prayer and with our sorrow.

We didn't turn away from each other because we had prayed during our courtship and dating period. We had prayed through our eight years prior to having that boy. When we didn't know what to do, almost by muscle memory we leaned on each other in prayer.

When she was complaining, I would tap into my scripture bank. When I was complaining, she was tapping into hers. When we were just sorrowful and crying and sitting there in silence, we were living on this foundation of God but didn't know it.

All of a sudden one day he clearly spoke to Danielle and he spoke to me in different ways. He was gracious enough to tell us why we were going to go through that season. He led me to Revelation chapter 12 where it talks about how a dragon was going to come and attack Christ and God took the child.

In Revelation chapter 12 verse 11 it talks about how they overcome by the blood of the Lamb and the words of our testimony. By knowing that God sacrificed his son for us, he basically said, "Howard, I know exactly what you're going through."

"I've been touched in the same way that you've been touched and Harper ultimately is my child. Out of sovereignty, I protected you and I protect Danielle for things you will not know." He told us this testimony will be used to encourage others and that he trusted us.

In Job he says, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust him." Though you're slain, it does not mean I don't have a plan. He is sovereign, so I could reckon with that.

Ann Wilson: What did that look like for you, Danielle?

Danielle Taylor: I was crying out to God saying, "You don't know how I feel. What type of God would do this? You say that you love me, so how dare you?" You're expressing everything.

Leading up to this, I was one of those people that felt like I couldn't sense God speaking. But when I was out praying at the chapel, God said what Howard said: "No, I do know how you feel. I lost my only son for you."

He gave him for my sake, so he knows how I feel. He reminded me about how busy I was and how he was trying to get my attention for things, but I was making an idol out of my career and what I wanted to do at the time.

That day was the first day I actually heard God speak to me in my spirit. Then I kept going to the chapel. We decided after all of this that we're not having any kids. We tried and it did not work out.

It was too much for us and for everybody else. We thought we should just move on with our lives without any kids. At the chapel, maybe two weeks after all of this, God led me to Genesis and said at this time next year you will have a son.

I read it and thought, "No way." That was maybe October and we had a son the next year on October 21st, Weston Harper Taylor.

God did teach me about his sovereignty. He reminded me that your works are like filthy rags. Just because you look good on paper does not determine his hand. He is God, so I got it.

Dave Wilson: In the fast pace of life, sometimes the best gift you can give your marriage is time. Time to slow down, reflect, and reconnect.

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I'm always amazed as you're talking about that foundation. We've talked about that a lot in the last two days—being in God's Word, praying together, and knowing who he is. Had you not had that, if you guys didn't go to God, what would you be like right now?

Howard Taylor: I don't know if we would even be together, to be candidly honest. Grief is jarring in many ways. God's used our testimony to allow us to coach couples through grief.

When you go through grief, people want answers. A lot of the answers are unexplained. Why do bad things happen to good people is what you often find through grief and mourning.

What we find is couples turn away from each other for those answers and they do not depend on each other. This is probably the biggest thing with a spiritual foundation. They don't know each other spiritually enough to trust each other with their vulnerabilities.

If Danielle and I had never prayed with each other or read scripture together, you don't have the rapport to pull each other through those types of moments spiritually.

Sometimes we find that couples lean on the pastor and resent their husband because he doesn't empathize with the pain the way the pastor was able to. They don't have any spiritual connection.

They lean on coworkers who get their pain and act as a listening voice while their spouse is just closed down and won't talk. They begin to seek this spiritual connection in external influences that just brings a big crack in the foundation.

Prior to life happening—because life is going to happen to everybody if you live long enough—it is critical that you begin to lay a solid foundation. It's building your house on rock.

When it gets windy and when the storms blow and when the rain hits, you know how to put your raincoat on together. You know how to dig into the trenches and you know how to cover each other.

If we had not had that, we would have been on sinking sand for sure. From when we started dating at eighteen and nineteen and started praying, that saved us for twelve years later when we lost our son. It is critical that you pray, read the word, and build a spiritual intimate connection.

Ann Wilson: What about the couple who's never done that and they've been married maybe twenty or thirty years? Where do they start, especially if one is like, "Hey, let's do this," and the other is like, "Wait, what?"

Danielle Taylor: I think you should start by having that conversation about what levels of comfort you both have with praying. Sometimes people are not comfortable praying out loud or talking about what their true prayer requests are.

I think talking about what they're comfortable with and just starting with no pressure is the way to go. It's just light and easy. It doesn't have to be significant or long and perfect.

You just take turns. Maybe pray for me and I'll pray for you. Is there anything on your mind? Do you mind if I pray? Getting that agreement with each other is important.

Even if the other person says they don't want to be a part of it, that doesn't mean the initial spouse can't pray for them. You can still pray in your quiet time alone. Over time that will encourage them and God will work on their heart.

Howard Taylor: There is safety in the multitude of counselors. Get a mentorship couple—somebody that you admire. Bring resources into your life that help.

The reason why our book is a workbook is because there are a lot of practical application things in that book to help you begin to take baby steps towards building on your communication. Building on any type of relationship starts with baby steps.

It may just be saying grace. If you don't ever say grace, that may grow into reading a chapter of the Bible together. Let's read a scripture and talk about it.

Having these little conversations builds connection. If you want to introduce your wife to sports or your wife wants to introduce you to sewing, at first it's jarring. But it may just take one article or one story or one project to make the person start to empathize.

It really should be baby steps. Don't feel like you have to swallow the whole Bible or go to seminary. Pick a scripture and say, "What does John 3:16 even mean to you?" Talk about that scripture.

Dave Wilson: I like that. Is that something you guys do on a daily basis? I know you have two boys and a busy life. Most couples, even in the church, don't do that.

The statistics say they go to church together maybe 1.3 times a month now. You guys are talking about something totally different than most couples do. So what would a baby step look like? Maybe just start praying?

Danielle Taylor: Yeah, start praying or just take one scripture. Sign up for the Bible app. It's easy and there are applicable daily reading plans that people could hop on.

Dave Wilson: We're driving here today and Ann got on me because I'm ten days behind her in the Bible app. What great accountability! She was like, "Dave, you should be up with me," and I'm ten days behind.

I wanted to talk about Ruth and Boaz today and she told me that was ten days ago and she didn't want to talk about it. She wanted to talk about David hiding from Saul!

But that very conversation shows we're in the word. We will talk about it tonight, but that foundation is what you call the secret stability.

Howard Taylor: Secret stability. You have to be intentional about it. Couples are very intentional about many things. Sometimes you find that in marriage you need to be intentional about date night.

Every other Friday we're going on a date. You may have to be intentional about finances. There's intention there, and spiritual intimacy is the same. It comes from intention and that intention may be that we're going to read the Book of Ruth.

Proverbs is a great one for any couple to start with. Read the Book of Proverbs. There are 31 chapters, so just go through one chapter a day. It's so much conventional wisdom in there.

It's a funner read. If you're starting out in a foundation, you don't want to start with the Book of Revelation or Deuteronomy. I would challenge couples to take one Proverb and just read it.

Don't feel like you have to even discuss it or exegete it. Just talk about it on a Friday night or on a Monday morning on your way to work. Sometimes that's intense for people.

You eat an elephant one bite at a time. As you get excited about it, you'll start to realize that your spouse has a great perspective you didn't think about.

Talk to your mentors about it and they may add some perspective. It excites you about your spiritual growth, but it starts out as an infant. It's going to fall and crawl, so don't place adult expectations on an infant growth process. Watch it blossom.

Danielle Taylor: I would add too to be honest with God. You can say, "God, we don't even know what we're doing, but we want to know you and we're going to do our best to get to know you. Help us." And he'll meet you there.

Dave Wilson: What a great day we just had with Howard and Danielle Taylor. Their book again is called The Fundamentals of Marriage: 8 Essential Practices of Successful Couples.

Ann Wilson: You can get the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com to get their book. We also wanted to let you know about a free guide that we want to give you.

It's filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real life couples who've been where you are. You can grab your copy today at familylife.com/marriagehelp.

Dave Wilson: Again, go to familylife.com/marriagehelp for your free guide full of marriage tips.

Ann Wilson: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported ministry of FamilyLife, a Cru Ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.