FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I could share thousands of times in our marriage in 45 years, where your words of life standing toe to toe have helped me see how great I can be and better as a man and a husband and dad. But at the same time, your words of truth. You have said hard things to me that I didn't want to hear, but I needed to hear.

I mean, we've said this many times. The night that I was crawling into bed after a long weekend and you said, you know, I wish the man that led our church lived here. I watched you preach this morning, and you're on fire, and you're casting vision and you're praying with a fervency, and when you come home, you just don't bring any of that. You're just sort of dead.

And I remember I should have said, thanks, that was helpful. I jumped out of bed and said, you don't realize I'm the best husband in the whole church. You think those other guys are losers compared to me. That's how I responded because I didn't like the critique.

But the next day, when I'm sitting with God and saying, God, were you speaking to me through Ann? He's like, yep.

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 2

And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us at Family Life. This is Family Life Today.

Speaker 1

Okay. I'm excited to continue our conversation about your book, the Ann Wilson book on how to speak life to your husband and when all you want to do is yell at him. It's sort of a memoir of Ann Wilson.

Speaker 2

But my favorite part is your writing, because at the end of each chapter, you have some really good things to say.

Speaker 1

And I know what you're doing right now. You're speaking life to me. You're living out the book. So let's jump back into the conversation.

I think that's what wives and women may not understand is when you critique a man, when you boo him or criticize him or compare him to other men that are better in your mind, thinking it's going to motivate him.

Right. It's almost like a hard coach.

Speaker 2

It's like a coach, yeah. Like, you can do this. And I thought you would think, I'm going to show you how good I can be.

Speaker 1

And I'm sure in some way ways that happens every once in a while, but most of the time it doesn't motivate. It demotivates a man.

Speaker 2

You think it defends a man is.

Speaker 1

Not Motivated by critique. I'm not sure women are either. Probably both ways.

Speaker 2

No, it's totally both ways.

Speaker 1

But I know when you started speaking life and believing in me and saying I was a good man of God, you're a good husband, you're a great dad, you're a good leader, all the things that you used to say, the opposite of.

At first I was skeptical. Like, you don't really. You're just saying it. But then over time, and I never.

Speaker 2

Said anything that I didn't see, because I'm not one that can be like, oh, I'm just gonna say this and fake him out, and I'm just gonna say things that aren't true. But I hope that he becomes. It wasn't manipulation at all. It was God showing me, like, these little corners of you that I hadn't seen before, like, whoa.

And we've shared this a bunch of times. But my biggest complaint was probably you as a spiritual leader, because I had Dennis Rainey in my head, like, you know, you need to get in there and let's open the word kids, and, you know, have these big time devotionals. I had these expectations of what that should look like.

And when I asked God to show me the greatness and show me even how you're leading, we've shared this so many times that you came out of the bedroom after praying with the boys. My prayer was, God, show me the greatness of Dave. And I was in awe. This is the first time it had ever happened. They were little.

You came out of the room and my words were, I'm so jealous of the power you have when the boys, when you're in there and you're praying. I watch them and they're locked in to you; everything you said, they're clinging to every word. I go in there and they're like, there's bedlam and chaos and they're not listening to anything. But, man, I wish I had that power that you carry. It's pretty phenomenal.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, literally, I can see myself at the top of the stairs and you sitting on the hallway saying that.

Speaker 2

What?

Speaker 1

That's how powerful words of life can be. I mean, words of death, you can remember where you were standing when somebody critiqued you or said, "You're a loser." But words of life, the same thing. It's like, I can remember standing there. I mean, we're still in that house. And, you know, I remember looking down at you and thinking, really? She thinks I do good. The boys hang on me, and I'm telling you, wives understand this.

And this is what I did in the book. I come at the end of every chapter and say, I want to just give you a husband's perspective on what Ann just said. Wives understand this. The next night, I'm running up the stairs into that bedroom to pray and have devotionals with my boys, which I was not doing a lot of, because I felt like I'm not a very good spiritual leader. I don't do it the way Anne wants me to do it. I don't stand at the end of the bedroom with a pulpit and a big Bible that's 18 inches wide and preach the gospel.

You know, that was sort of the joke is like, I want a sermon given to our kids. I would just lay on the bed, we talk about God, we pray. And all I know is I'm running up the stairs the next night. Like, she says, I'm good at this. She says, the boys hang on every word. I'm just telling you women, that's how you motivate a man.

Speaker 2

Again, you're not lying or manipulating.

Speaker 1

You're just seeing. And you're asking, God, give me eyes. One son calls him God Goggles. Give me God goggles to see my man the way you see him. And so I'm going to speak to him. The words you speak to him, which are words of affirmation and belief. And I'm just telling you, you want to motivate your man. Don't do it to motivate your man. Just do it because you really are seeing something great. Don't hold it to yourself. Speak it out.

And I'm telling you, it's like this. I've said this many times on stages when we talk about this in vertical marriage. It's like you were saying, I'm this man. And I have my hands way up above my head, and I felt like I'm this man. I'm way down here. And some of that's cause I believe that. And you've told me that most of my life. And so now you're saying, I'm this man. And I'm like, no, I'm not. I don't even see myself as that way.

All I know is, as you kept saying that, I started to realize she really does see me differently now. She does think I'm a good man and a good leader and a good provider and a good spiritual leader and a good husband. And all I know is I was like, I'm going to become the man she says I am, that I'm not yet, but I'm going to become that guy.

That's how it works for men, and I'm sure it works the same way for women. But man, as you believe in us and you speak life to us, we want to become the man you say we are and get better. And who was it? I think it was Matt Chandler, wasn't it? We just interviewed.

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1

And I think he said, when you put a crown on a man, he'll become a king. It's. That idea is like you were saying, you're this guy. And that made me go, I will be that guy.

Speaker 2

I think my thought was God, you know, who you created Dave to be, you know, all of the places inside of him of what you created to become. And part of my job and my role, and it goes both ways, is to pull out those things that God put in you.

And I think part of the question is, for me as a woman, I had to go back and think, what is my, like, pushback, even with who I'm supposed to be as a wife? And when we started speaking for the weekend, to remember when you get into Genesis, the book of Genesis 2:18, and God's creating woman, and he says that he's created woman to be a helper suitable for Adam.

So this was when we first started speaking for Family Life. I was 29. And I remember I kept studying this, looking at it. I've been to seminary, but I knew that I should look it up in Hebrew, but I didn't. And so I looked it up in the dictionary, Webster's dictionary. And the word.

Speaker 1

I was like, where's my helper?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Because I'm like, why does he get a helper? I don't have a helper. Of course the man gets a helper and the woman doesn't. Like, I wish I had somebody to help me. I think that all the time when the kids were little, wishing I had somebody to help me around here. And so that word really got stuck with me. Like, I don't want to be the helper.

When the dictionary talks about the helper as basically someone important who tells others what to do, I'm like, this is why I don't want to be the helper. And when I talk to you about it, you're like, have you looked it up in the Hebrew? I said no. So looking it up in the Hebrew was really interesting for me, and I feel like I've still been learning about this.

Remember when we had Christy McClelland on? Oh, yeah, she was phenomenal! I like that the word helper in Hebrew is the word "azer." That word is powerful. We wrote in here that there's nothing subservient or inferior about being a helper. It carries the idea of strengthening someone in a way they cannot do for themselves, revealing a powerful understanding of God's unique strength and influence given to the woman.

Then the word suitable is the word "kinedgo," which is not used any other time in Scripture, in the whole Bible. That word means to stand toe to toe, which is also interesting to me because it's not the little helper. This word is used many times in the Psalms when Israel's in trouble and they're calling out, like, where does my help come from? The only psalm that Moses wrote talks about Moses saying, our help comes from our "azer," which comes from God. So when you think of it in that term, that's a powerful word of help to a man.

Speaker 1

I mean, it's shattering. God is our help.

Speaker 2

It's not the little helper.

Speaker 1

I mean, God is called an azer. He's a helper. So to say a wife is a helper is not a demeaning, subservient term. It's like, you are powerful in your man's life as God is. You're.

Speaker 2

Well, maybe not that powerful, but, I.

Speaker 1

Mean, you're very powerful. It isn't like you're a weak little, you know, sidekick over here, does everything so the man's life will be better.

You're a partner, an equal partner who stands. Talk about suitable toe to toe.

What's that mean, toe to toe?

Speaker 2

I think my best description of it was when we were having a lunch with some of our guests, who are several different theologians in the room.

But that word, toe to toe, when I was asking a lot of the people at lunch, like, what do you guys think it means?

Speaker 1

Dr. Jeff Myers was sitting there that day over lunch, and he made a comment. I recorded it because the.

Speaker 2

Did you?

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, the conversation got really rich. Here's a guy with a doctorate in theology, and we're just discussing. Because you were writing the book and studying this whole thing, and we're like, and he's a scholar.

And he's like, yeah, I've studied this many times. And when he made that comment, which you put in the book, where he said, I think God was trying to give us a picture of when a husband looks at his wife, he sees in her eyes the man he can be. That's a different picture of helper.

It's like an equal partner who brings out the best. You stand toe to toe. That means you speak life and you compliment and you encourage, but it also...

Speaker 2

Means that you will speak.

Speaker 1

You will speak the truth.

Speaker 2

And I think that that's really important for you as a listener to hear. We're not saying you're just this subservient, quiet little mouse in the house right when you have something to say.

And we'll talk about this in a little bit; it's really important for you to say it because we strengthen one another in our marriage as iron sharpens iron. A lot of times that's used for men in the scriptures, but we do that in our marriage, too.

We strengthen each other by sometimes speaking hard truths, but we do it in a way that can be heard and understood.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I could share thousands of times in our marriage in 45 years, where your words of life standing toe to toe have helped me see how great I can be and better as a man and a husband and dad.

But at the same time, your words of truth, which later in the book you talk about, you got to package those words of truth in love. Ephesians 4:15, Speak the truth in love. So you got to package them in a building up way, even though it's hard truth.

You have said hard truth things to me that I didn't want to hear, but I needed to hear. And so in some ways, standing toe to toe, being an Azerknegdo was like, you're my partner and you bring life to me, but you also hold me accountable to be the man that God wants me to be.

And those hard truths made me better. They sharpened me. And so both ways it works.

Speaker 2

But when I was only speaking hard truths, you couldn't hear it because they were.

Speaker 1

They're all withdrawals. And when you start speaking life, you're deposit, deposit, deposit. And now you got to make a withdrawal with a hard truth. He's going to receive it because he feels built up.

And so now you're taking a dollar out when you put in $500 million. That's a pretty good analogy of how much life you're speaking. It doesn't hurt, but it does sharpen us.

I mean, we've said this many times. The night that I was crawling into bed after a long weekend, and you said, you know, I wish the man that led our church lived here. I'm not saying that's the best way to say it.

Speaker 2

It was at the time he was.

Speaker 1

Literally what you said. And I didn't even know what you meant. I'm like, what do you mean? And you were just like, I watched you preach this morning and you're on fire and you're casting vision and you're praying with a fervency. And when you come home, you just don't bring any of that. You're just sort of dead.

And I remember I should have said, thanks, that was helpful. I jumped out of bed and said, you don't realize I'm the best husband in the whole church. You think those other guys are losers compared to me. That's how I responded because I didn't like the critique.

But the next day, when I'm sitting with God and saying, God, were you speaking to me through Ann? He's like, yep. And then those words motivated me because I remember saying, even on my knees, right there in my little bedroom office again, the boys were young then. I just remember saying, okay, God, the most important disciples in my life that I'm pouring into are not thousand people at my church. It's Ann, it's CJ, it's Austin, and Cody. I should be bringing to my home more energy than I bring anywhere else.

Not that your job doesn't matter. Your ministry, whatever you're doing, it matters. You bring everything you got. You work unto the Lord and you are excellent. And you bring passion. But I was bringing it out there and not in here.

And those words that you spoke were hard words. I mean, you just said what you felt, but I heard God use those and say, you got to step up and be the man that I've called you to be. And I felt like I made a commitment that day to say I'm stepping up. I got to become a better husband, a better dad. I got to be a spiritual leader in this home, not just in the church.

And that was a hard toe-to-toe moment where I think you were my helper suitable to transform me in some ways.

Speaker 2

And I think we do that with our kids too. When we look at them and we see who God made them to be and to speak truth, we're speaking both love and truth to our kids.

But I think what hit me about that lunchtime when we were talking about the helper suitable, my thought was, when Dave looks into my eyes, what does he see? What's the reflection that he sees? And a lot of that's my way of being.

And if you are being totally honest, back in the day when we talked about this, the chopping plant story and the boo story, what did you see when you looked into my eyes? I don't think I've ever asked you this.

Speaker 1

I felt like you were discouraged and disappointed that I wasn't the man you thought I was when we dated, when we were engaged. I wasn't the spiritual leader. I wasn't romantic as much as you thought I would be. I didn't serve you like you thought I would be. And you know what? All of that was true. I wasn't doing any of that.

So, I mean, I've been speaking around the country at these Iron Sharpens Iron men's conferences. We got a thousand men in the room, and one of the workshops I've been doing this year is how to become the husband your wife thought she married. These guys come in there because they've heard the same thing: "I thought you were going to be this." When we're dating, we're romantic. We're giving everything we've got. And then we get married, and we sort of get lazy in the marriage side, while we get energized on the job side. Our wives feel duped.

So what happens? They start speaking that out. The man's like, "Okay, you don't like what I'm doing? Okay, I'll see you later." And they go back to work, and it all starts to change, I think. It's on us as men to become the men. That's what I challenge the guys to be. It's like, man, what would it look like to really love your wife like she's the most important person in your life? Because she is. She's more important than the kids.

Speaker 2

That'll be your book.

Speaker 1

Yeah, maybe that'll happen. But all I know is I felt like you were disappointed.

Speaker 2

When you look at me now, what do you see?

Speaker 1

I feel like you think I'm the man. I mean, in some ways, I'm like, you're deluded. But you keep saying you're amazing.

And I feel like in some ways, you see me as your helper now. Like, you didn't get a helper. You got one right here. And I want to be your helper. I want to be serving you.

And I don't want to be asked to vacuum the family room. I want to see it and step up and do it because you deserve it, because you're gonna do it.

And I know there's still some times you're like, seriously, I asked you to vacuum the family room yesterday. And it's still not done. And, you know, we just lay there, like, I'm gonna do it, but like, no, get off the couch and do it now because you've made me a better man.

Speaker 2

Well, it's interesting with all of this, as we've been learning all of that. I love the word "azerkin edgo" now, which means "helper suitable." It's a term that I want to be a part of. I'm helping you to become the man that God created you to be.

One of the things I love that Christy McClellan also said was when she asked a Jewish rabbi over in Israel what he thought "azerkin edgo" means—helper suitable for Adam. He thought about it for a minute and said, "You know what I think it means, Christy? God knew there was an enemy in the garden, and it would take the man and the woman standing side by side in battle together to defeat the enemy. It would take the two of them."

When I heard that, it made me think about how often we had been facing each other, fighting each other, when God was saying, "No, I put you together on the planet and in your family to battle the enemy together." Not battle each other, but battle together. Because there's a great battle going on in marriage and family, and we have to win it together.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I think a lot of couples really do think their enemies, their spouse, me too, because they've been disappointed and maybe even hurt, abandoned.

Then again, I mean, we say this, it feels like we say it every four or five pages in the book. If your man is hurting you, physically or verbally assaulting you, we are not sane. Cheer your man, you know, stand toe to toe and speak life to him. No, it's like, you need to get safe.

We're not saying get divorced, but get safe. And hopefully, God can transform him by you protecting yourself. But if he's a good-willed man, he's just trying his best. But he's like me; he's clueless and he's missing and he's fallen short.

You get the chance to transform your man by being the helper God has created both of us to be to one another, to bring life into his soul and literally transform him.

Speaker 2

And let me tell you, if you're trying to find life through your husband, you're trying to get to the wrong place to give you life. And I think we say this, that.

Speaker 1

Goes back to vertical.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I was going to say we say this over and over. And I would say, as my testimony, it is not Dave who fills me up. He's great and sometimes he's not. But it is not Dave who fills me up. It is Jesus. That's why I have to be in the Word every single day.

I know this sounds weird, but when I'm in the Word, I have my eyes on the Father. If I'm not in the Word for three days in a row, they automatically drift toward Dave. They drift toward you? Because I'm like, oh, why isn't he? Or why does he? I automatically try to find my life through you, and it's just a habit.

That's a bad habit. When we're not locked in with the Father, we're looking for other places to fill our soul.

Speaker 1

Yeah. If we're not filled up by our relationship with Jesus. And again, I know it's easy to say. It's work. It's like a workout. You got to put in the time and let him fill you. We become a drain in our marriage rather than a fountain.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1

How about that? I want to be a fountain that overflows the living water of Jesus in me to my spouse rather than demanding from her or him that they meet my needs so that I can be happy. I'm already happy. I've found life in Christ. I mean, that's what vertical is. Go vertical and he'll fill you, and then you can pour out to serve and love your spouse.

So I hope you've enjoyed this conversation with my wife. We don't usually do this. We usually interview together somebody else. But it's been really fun.

Speaker 2

I do not like being in this.

Speaker 1

I know you don't like it. I can tell.

Speaker 2

I don't like talking about it. I don't like talking about myself. I'd rather ask somebody else questions.

Speaker 1

Well, here's the deal. I've got a couple more questions.

Speaker 2

Oh, no.

Speaker 1

And these are sort of special questions that we're going to reserve for our monthly partners.

What's a monthly partner? Somebody that financially supports family life on a monthly basis. We call them our partners because we can't do this without you.

And if you want to become a monthly partner, go to familylifetoday.com and you can click on the donate button there and become a partner with us.

And if that's you, you get a special extra edition that we saved just for our partners.

Speaker 2

Family Life today is a donor supported production of Family Life Accrue ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.