FamilyLife Today®

Ted Lowe: The only common denominator with the couples that reported the highest level of marital satisfaction was they were basically given a spousal report card and said, "Rank your spouse in categories like generosity, kindness, loyalty." And the ones that were happiest were the ones who ranked their spouse highest in every category than their spouse had ranked themselves. So I think it's made up of, "If you could only see you like I see you."

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

All right, I'm going to ask you a question. You better know the answer. My greatest moment on a golf course.

Ann Wilson: When you shot under par by a lot?

Dave Wilson: Never done that. I shot par once or twice, never under. Last week I had a birdie and almost an eagle. But no, here's the thing. I was playing in a charity celebrity golf thing and a woman finds out, she walks up to me and says, "So you're a marriage expert. That's what I hear." I'm like, "No, I'm not." But she says, "I'm in my second marriage. What's the problem with marriage?"

And I have 10 seconds. And I go, "I can answer that in one word." She goes, "Really?" I go, "Selfishness." Classic response. This is what I'll never forget. She goes, "You are so right! My first husband was so selfish." It's like, oh my goodness. That's how we all think. We can't see it in ourselves; we see it in somebody else. And that all begins in the mind. And we've got Ted Lowe. You can hear him over there laughing in the studio. Welcome back, Ted.

Ted Lowe: Thanks for having me.

Dave Wilson: And you're laughing partly because it's funny, but you wrote a book called *Us in Mind* which is all about how our thinking, our mind, determines how it impacts our marriage. So, bring us into this world. We started a conversation yesterday a little bit.

Ann Wilson: And if you didn't hear, go back and listen to that one. It's so good.

Dave Wilson: We went somewhere I wasn't expecting us to go on empathy. But one of the things we just started to talk about yesterday was a little bit about how what we think about our spouse greatly impacts our marriage. Take us there.

Ted Lowe: There was a fascinating study on couples who had been married an average of 21 years who reported being madly in love. But they did a brain scan study and there were three areas of the brain that had higher activity than the rest of us, I guess. But one of them was an area of the brain that's responsible for a thing called positive illusion. And it's the ability to focus on what you do like about your spouse and not focus on what you don't.

Now, I know red flags go up. This is not about ignoring anything abusive. Let me just say that right off the top. This is not about being delusional or putting yourself in harm's way. But when you think for most of us, that cannot be our tendency to remember all the things that we do love about our spouse and stop focusing so much on the things that we don't. And that's where our brain can be playing a game called confirmation bias. In other words, you find what you're looking for.

And the roughest point in our marriage was a time that my brain was playing confirmation bias and I didn't know it. We spent our first five years of marriage on the West Coast. Had a great church where we worked with great buddies. We were close to the beach. I mean, I loved it there. But when we started talking about having our family, we talked about moving back closer to our folks. And we decided that together. You need to hear me on this point. I was all in. I had made that decision with her.

But when we moved back, we moved to the Atlanta area. I didn't know what was going on at the time, but I was just struggling. And I thought it was just where we were. I thought, "I don't like this." And Nanci loved it. She was close to her mom and her friends and she can make friends in two seconds and so she was doing great and I just remember one day I was outside mowing the lawn and it's 5,000 degrees. And our lawn in California took me four seconds. I'm like, "Do we need to own the park or do we need access to one? This is ridiculous. Why am I in charge of this big space?"

So I'm out there mowing and it's hot, and I have this thought: "Did I really want to move here or did she talk me into moving here?" And then I thought, "I think she always gets what she wants." And then I had this thought, and I'd say it was with zero humor: "I think she's manipulative." And when you hang that banner over your spouse or you put that badge on them, you start treating them like they're manipulative.

So you can imagine what my attitude was going back into that house and, quite frankly, for a season where I'm thinking, "Here I am in a place I don't like and it's because of her. It's her fault." And so imagine anytime she got excited about something, how do you think I responded? Do you think I was like, "Oh, I love seeing you happy"? No. Or just anything she would say, I would view through the lens. Call me for dinner and that's manipulative. So it was one of those times and it's just so important what filter are we putting over our spouse. What are you telling yourself about your spouse because you're going to live like it's true.

Ann Wilson: I've done the same thing. Mowing the grass actually. I remember this. I'm out mowing the grass. Hey, by the way, Ted, I mow the grass too. It isn't just you. But this was back in the day when you were gone so much. And I remember, Dave was in the house. I actually like mowing the grass. But in my head, I'm mowing the grass and here's my thought: "I do everything around here. What does he do?" And then I start logging in my head, "What does he actually do around here?"

And I'm thinking, "I do this and this and this. I'm not sure he does anything." Then when I'm treating him like, "Well, you're selfish," that's what I say in my head. "You know why? Because he's self-centered. He never sees me and he's all about himself." And I really did treat you like that.

Dave Wilson: Do you want me to comment?

Ann Wilson: But I will say that the one time when I said that, I felt like God was saying... here's what I felt He impressed on me: "Do you like mowing the grass?" And I said, "I actually do. Yes, I like it." And I felt like He's saying, "Why do you keep complaining?" And I was, in my head, constantly complaining about Dave. And then actually, it gradually started coming out and I would complain to him incessantly. And you're saying it all starts with our minds.

Ted Lowe: It does. Again, your thoughts are not your actions or your attitudes, but they lead to both. It postures you. Scripture's so clear about being careful with your thoughts. So, one of the things I point couples to, if you're thinking like this, if you've got "my spouse is manipulative" or "my spouse is selfish" or "self-centered" or whatever that label that you've put, negative label, that you've put onto them, is you take Philippians 4:8.

He's very clear about here's what you think about. He says, "Finally, brothers and sisters." In other words, "Here's the last thing I want to tell you." "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true." And the reason I love it being true is this: for every time I talk about seeing your spouse in a positive light, there's always the pushback of, "Well, this is denial. Does this mean I can't talk about things? Is this just rose-colored glasses?" And it starts with true. So again, if someone's being abused or hurt, the truth is that's got to stop. There's nothing more true than that, right?

Dave Wilson: Get safe.

Ted Lowe: Yeah. So if somebody's listening and that's their case, get safe immediately. But for most of us, it's not so extreme. It's like, okay, what's true is we both decided to move. What's also true is I'm having a harder time with it than she is. It says, "Whatever is true, whatever is noble." Well, let me tell you what's noble. We got married when I was 25 and she's 23. She leaves her whole life. She moves 2,500 miles to join my life for five years.

We get back and I'm having a hard time adjusting and all of a sudden she's manipulative? Come on. What's noble is that 23-year-old lady that did that for me, right? And say, "Okay, what is noble, whatever is pure, whatever is right, whatever is lovely. If there's anything worthy of praise."

So if someone's having a really hard time with their spouse, I mean, I'm talking about they're driving me crazy and some of it is so valid. They are not doing some things that they need to be doing or they're just driving you crazy. It says, "If anything is excellent or praiseworthy." If they're wiping something or somebody, start there. If they're flushing, start there. You have to bring the bar down so low for a little bit and then you start looking in that way. What it does, it postures us to love them in a way we can't love them on our own.

When you're talking about you felt like the Lord said, "Why are you complaining? Don't you like to mow?" I was not listening for Him to reposture me at that time. It didn't happen in the same day of mowing. It took forever. I didn't even know what was going on. So what it does is it calms the brain, it calms the mind, it helps you to focus and see them like you hope they're seeing you.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, the question would be, how do you get your mind to change if it's tending to go negative? Because when you said, "What is true," it'd be easy to say, "Well, it's true that she is selfish," rather than, "It's true that I'm selfish." Even when I said to that woman, "Yeah, this easy to answer: selfishness," she couldn't see it in herself and we all do that. So we have to sometimes change. I loved your stats in your book where the average person has 12,000 to 60,000 thoughts a day and 80% of them are negative.

Ann Wilson: That was crazy to me.

Dave Wilson: That's crazy. Because we do it on ourselves, but we do it on our spouse. So how do you change that?

Ted Lowe: Our brain's not naturally wired to look for the positive. It truly is a rewiring of the brain. It's new neural pathways. And we've seen this happen in other areas of our life. Like we've seen it happen when our life changes in terms of things like exercise or work. That you can just use a few guiding thoughts, a few intentional thoughts that you go, "You know what? If I would look at this situation through this lens that it could really change things."

There's a great book by Jon Acuff called *Soundtracks* and he talks about that from a career perspective. And he just has people repeat 10 things in the morning out loud in the mirror and 10 things at night out loud in the mirror. And the results of that have been staggering to people's productivity. And all it is is a rewiring and a re-thought process.

So look at their face. When you have eye contact with your spouse, it creates empathy in your brain for them. Just by looking. It creates empathy. And think about all the times when you're frustrated with your spouse. I know I'll look down at the kitchen counter, I'll look down at the floor, I'll look up at the skies. It's harder to say those things to their face.

Dave Wilson: So when you came in off of the lawn mowing thing, was your mind able to be transformed yet or were you still stuck?

Ted Lowe: No. I was a jerk for a season.

Ann Wilson: Tell us how you got out of the season. It sounds like you started rewiring your way into that positive, what did you call it, illusion?

Ted Lowe: Positive illusion. Yeah. I think when I started learning all this research, I think what it did is it helped me to look back on what was going on there. I didn't have as much of a big revelation then as more the research showed me, "Oh, that reason that season was so tough is during that season you were having a hard time and you're having a hard time not making it about her or blaming it on her."

And as the season got smoother and as you got more comfortable, you stopped doing that less. I wish I could say a pastor drove up on his lawnmower and said, "Brother, come forth and let me show you some scripture." Instead, it was just, well, now I feel better. Now I'm nice again. Like, who wants that guy?

So I think it's more of identification. And when we hear this type of thing, it can feel so condemning. But here's the thing. There's no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. He'll convict us, but He won't condemn us. And I'm hope people that are listening, there's some "aha" moments. And what I don't want people to do is have an "aha" moment that turns into something they feel bad about themselves and shameful or labeling themselves. And all of a sudden you're just turning it back right back on yourself.

Now you're going, "Oh look what I did. Bad person." Instead of going, "You know what I'm doing? I'm listening to a podcast right now on how to be better at my marriage. So I get that. Check that off on my good boy and good girl list." But to say, "I'm not going to use this to condemn myself. See this as the Lord going, 'Oh, here's a little thing that could really make a big difference.' That's His way of loving me. Not His way of hurting me or making me so ashamed that I'm not going to change." Like, oh wow.

And it's never too late. I mean, for us, a lot of this in the last few years, it's just made our marriage so much stronger and so much more relaxed is the other word. It's just been easier.

Ann Wilson: Obviously, you hear us talk about marriages and how that foundation affects everything else in our lives.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and one thing we think we'd all agree on is that great marriages don't just happen. That's for sure. They're built with intentionality. And whether we see it or not, we're either drifting in marriage apart or intentionally moving together toward each other and toward God.

Ann Wilson: Okay, so here's the great news for your relationship. FamilyLife's Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway has events all over the country this spring. And even better, right now through Monday, January 26, registrations are, ready for this, 50% off.

Dave Wilson: Do you hear that? 50% off. So jump on this chance to intentionally pull closer to each other and to God and get two registrations for the price of one now through January 26 at familylifetoday.com.

Ann Wilson: That's familylifetoday.com.

I've talked to women and at one conference, this woman came up to me at the end and she said, "You said to find the positive about your husband and start thinking about those things." She said, "There is nothing. I can't think of one thing that is good about him." And I remember saying, "But you married him because you saw something in him. So it might be that you have to go back to those things." She goes, "So you want me to lie?"

But I like what you said: it's a positive illusion. No, it's what you used to think about him. And start reminding yourself and remind him of those things. So they're little acts. And I told her, and I tell women: you might not feel like saying it. Your emotions might not be there at first. But they might come later. Maybe not, but it's that act of being obedient of seeing the greatness and then saying those things is so helpful.

Dave Wilson: I mean, here's my question to the wife and it could be the husband of a spouse who's really hurt them. You know, how do I change my thoughts, think positively about a man who had an affair? A woman who's broken her promises and is still continuing to make promises but never live up to them. You know, it's not repentant maybe. There's just that it's a deep hurt and wound. I love them, I still want to make this marriage work, but I'm having a hard time believing positive when all the evidence keeps coming back negative.

Ted Lowe: I think the reality of when you start with whatever's true, whatever's true may be, "Hey, the thing I can see the best in is the two of us need to go talk to somebody."

Ann Wilson: That's good.

Ted Lowe: We need to invite a pastor, we need to invite a counselor. What's true is I can't do this anymore. What's true is I can't let you hurt me like this anymore. What's true is if you do, I don't know where we're going to head. That's what's true. I love you, but this can't be. And so I think that's when you invite wisdom into this.

So many times the two of us, we've created pain for each other and frustration and sometimes that's way more one-sided than the other. And I know somebody's listening and that's really hard. I think sometimes the strength or the truth of that situation is you need to bring in a third party. And don't wait until you're all done. Don't wait until apathy comes because then you're in trouble.

Ann Wilson: Or hopelessness.

Ted Lowe: Or hopelessness. Oh, when I see a couple come in and I've got one of them's apathetic or hopeless and the other one's still fighting, I'm like, "Oh, you've gotten into that." So many people won't go see a counselor until their spouse says, "I'm all done." Don't wait until then. Don't wait until then.

So I don't want anybody to put themselves in harm's way and I don't think any of this is about somebody not speaking what's true of the situation because it starts with that. But it's truth and grace. Say, "I love you. I want to make this work, but we've been trying and we're not doing a great job here and I need... we need to talk to somebody."

Ann Wilson: I was amazed at the statistics of saying the best marriages are couples who... the spouse might think better of them than they do themselves.

Dave Wilson: Wow, look at this. Are you kidding me?

Ann Wilson: I feel like that's what you do. I feel like you've always had me higher than I thought of myself. I marvel at it. Like I'm way worse than you think I am, Dude. But I think that that has always been so sweet to me. And statistically, you're saying that shows up.

Ted Lowe: The research is so clear about this. And this study is actually 10 to 12 years old where there was a group of psychologists that said, "Hey, it feels like we do a lot of research on couples that are struggling and then we basically say don't do that or do the opposite of that." And they said, "Well wait a minute. What if a great marriage is not the opposite of one that's struggling? What if it's different like everything else?

You know, a great church is not the opposite of one that's struggling; it's different. A great football coach is not the opposite of one that struggles; they're different." So they did an enormous study in the United States and the United Kingdom and they came back and they said it turns out our hunch was correct because the ones that were struggling, the commonality was, "I don't feel understood." So everybody went, "Oh, communication, communication, communication! You've got to have a firm grasp of reality of strengths and weaknesses," which would make sense. And they went, "That's logical, but that's wrong."

The only common denominator with the couples that reported the highest level of marital satisfaction was they were basically given a spousal report card and said, "Rank your spouse in categories like generosity, kindness, loyalty." And the ones that were happiest were the ones who ranked their spouse highest in every category than their spouse had ranked themselves.

So I think it's made up of, "If you could only see you like I see you." I mean, and we know those couples, right? We know them. And the great thing is we can be them, right? We really can start to go, "Whoa, let's pull back and let's don't just talk about things when we're mad about things. Let's pull back and let's think when our brains are wired to do that." And this is where you invite Jesus into this thing, going, "Help me to see them like You see them." Because I'm seeing them like I'm seeing them and through my own selfishness and my frustrations and weaknesses. "How do You see this person?"

Ann Wilson: How have you done that with Nanci? What's that looked like?

Ted Lowe: You know, we've been teaching this Philippians 4:8 thing for so long. I think it's when I run through the lens of that. And also sometimes the things that can drive us the craziest about our spouse, our lives are really benefiting a lot from that. My wife is very, very organized. Very. Our junk drawer has dividers. Which I've tried to explain to her makes it, by its very essence, no longer a junk drawer. It takes away the hope. I mean, you need to pull that drawer open and believe anything is possible. I could find my wallet, my keys, my kids... I mean... no.

But everything's organized and that ends up being very beneficial for a man who loses everything constantly. She's always organizing the finances. It is amazing all the things that she keeps up. And it's just makes our life run better. There's four kids at our house. There's a lot of people at our home. And so it runs smoother because of that.

And she would say, and she does when she speaks with me, she would say, "Hey, he's always wanting to go somewhere or do something." And she's thinking, "Are you kidding me? We've got this and this and this and this." And she goes, "But if I'll just go, I'm always glad that I do." But she said that the thing of like, "Aren't you aware of what's going down in our home right now? Like you're talking about going on date night and we have blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." You know, she's like, "Okay, I'll go." And she's like, "Oh, I'm so glad we went."

I think it's those things of looking at even the things you struggle with, you're going, "Okay, but how is my life radically impacted for the positive in this way?" And then really looking at those things you're just endeared toward. I mean, I look at her and she is still the cutest human, the prettiest girl I've ever seen in my life. And I don't say that because I should; I still see her like I did on our first date.

She still blows me away. When you hear all the appliances going on in the bathroom and stuff and I'm thinking, "Oh man, she walks out..." Like, if this doesn't make you believe in Jesus, her marrying me, I don't know what does. But it's looking at them, it's seeing them, going, "Wow, you're great." You know, on holidays and different things like there's Mother's Day when you focus and stop and you start thinking about all that they do. Even in your quiet time going, "I'm going to think about them and not just about me."

Dave Wilson: I told Ann years ago that when I go outside and speak and minister and do things, I feel like I get cheered. When I come home, I feel like I get booed. And that story, which became this classic moment in our marriage, changed our marriage because I really did feel like that. Like, "Wow, they think I'm good out there. They tell me I'm good, whether I am or not, it doesn't matter. I just feel... and when I came home, I feel like she thinks I'm bad."

Ann Wilson: And Ted, he told this story in front of like 100 people.

Dave Wilson: Whatever. I never said it to her. I did not say it to her with our family. So this story is still in process.

Ted Lowe: Oh yeah. No, no.

Dave Wilson: Decades ago. But the reason I bring it up is just to remind our listener because what you said happened in our marriage. Over decades, she first of all was shocked because she's like, "I'm not booing you; I'm helping you. I'm pointing out things." But over time what happened, and our son said it once in a sermon. He's up there preaching and when your son says something, you're like, "Wow, that was profound."

I'll never forget it. He said, "When you see your spouse the way God sees your spouse, you will say the things to your spouse God says to your spouse." It was like one of those, "Wait, wait, I got to write that down." And it was like, God's looking at your spouse and saying, "I created you in my image. You're a beautiful daughter, king." And we often do the opposite. "You're a loser, you're..."

She started speaking life to me, Ted, like, "You're a good man, you're a good husband." At first, I was like, "You're lying. You've never said that before." All I know is she never stopped. And 42 years in, this woman believes in me more than I believe in myself. Everything you just said.

And I think we're madly in love and it's because of what you just said. So all I want to say to our listener: your marriage can be transformed by God. And again, it starts in your mind when you start to see what God sees, you start to speak what God speaks. It'll change your marriage. It's *Us in Mind*. It's exactly your title: changing your thoughts can change your marriage.

Ann Wilson: And I would just add, Dave, it is possible because Jesus does that. You know, He transforms, as Romans 12:2 says, to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. And that's what He does. He renews our minds for our spouse.

Okay, so what did you think about that with Ted Lowe?

Dave Wilson: I mean, he's like messing with my brain. Which is exactly what we all need. It's like our minds determine our behavior, and so we want to see God transform our minds.

Ann Wilson: Yeah, and his book again is called *Us in Mind: Change Your Thoughts, Change Your Marriage*. You can get his book, just click the link in the show notes at familylifetoday.com. Every single day families around the world are facing real struggles and FamilyLife is here with gospel-centered help and hope. And when you become a FamilyLife partner, your monthly support fuels this work.

Dave Wilson: And with your monthly gift, you'll become a part of a community that receives insider updates, which is pretty amazing.

Ann Wilson: Yes, it is. And who doesn't want to be a part of an insider community? You also get invitations to special events and more. Because together, we're helping families really grow stronger in Christ. So join us.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, just go to familylifetoday.com and tap the donate button at the top of the page.

Ann Wilson: FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported ministry of FamilyLife, a Cru ministry, helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.