FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

If you're going through trauma, I think it's important to look at how trauma manifests and then learn about it and then watch yourself because you fragment and you detach and you withdraw from each other.

And I think had I known that's what you do when you have trauma, then we wouldn't have made some of the mistakes we made.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Ann Wilson. You can find us@familylife today.com. this is Family Life today.

Speaker 2

Got Matt and Sarah back. Let's talk about going from good intentions to real action. Talk to the husband or the wife. Maybe it's listening or watching, and it's like what Ann is saying, what you felt. They've been feeling it. Maybe it's recent, but maybe they've been feeling it for a while.

But that step out of the boat is that first step. Is that faith-filled? Scary. I don't know if this water's turning solid or not. I know he's calling me, but this boat is my comfortable. You know, the paycheck's coming in, you.

Speaker 3

Know, security and identity, that I don't know.

Speaker 4

That's real. Yeah, that's identity. That is real. That's right. I do want to answer that question.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

I do want to say one quick side note. You're talking about identity, and this does actually, I think, tie into the answer to what you're saying about what do we say to those people?

I was talking with my friend Jim Wallace. He's an apologist. Jay Warner Walls.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we've had him on.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah, they're amazing. He and Sean McGoj a couple weeks ago, and we were talking for a while about some things, and he said something to me about identity that just like rocked my world. It's a visual that I hesitate to share because it's like you hope people can get what I got out of it. You know what I mean?

But he was saying whenever we talk about who we are, it's "I am a musician" or "I am a show host" or "I am a father, I am a husband." And he was saying, what's interesting is I am this or that, but God is just "I am." And he said, to get to who we are, we have to go through him.

I loved that visual. I was like, that is so cool. You could take that in so many ways. But I think that somebody should write.

Speaker 2

A song, by the way.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I know. But that visual, just like out of our whole conversation, really stuck with me about how many times we try to pass over who he is to get to who we are or what he wants. To try to get to what we want, to get to who we really are, and to get to what we're really meant to do, we have to go through him. That's the only way we can find our identity.

To me, in that moment, and what I would say to anybody out there, any men out there, is if you know that the Lord is speaking to your heart about who he's called you to be outside of the identity or vocation or the current season that God has called you to, now if he's calling you to something else and he's calling you out of it, then, man, I would just say, like, remember where your identity is. Go through him. Go back to who he is. Go back to finding your identity in him.

And if you're finding your identity so much in what you want to be beyond him or outside of him, then, man, I just say just that moment of surrender and trust. We don't trust him to carry us. We don't trust him, like you said, to allow our steps to go across the water because we think we'll sink. But I'll tell you, from my experience, from my testimony, as scared as I was to step, as scared as I was to walk, when I kept my eyes on Jesus, who I was in him, and what he was calling me to do, every step became a miracle.

And then I could look back at every step and see that not only was it a miracle, but it was such a blessing. I hear my wife say to me today, "Wow, like, he really is leading us." Do you know how bad I wanted to hear those words back then? You know how much it hurt to hear the words, "Hey, you're not stepping up"? It's like, I want to. I'm trying. But am I trying? I don't know.

This journey that I talk about, this lead me journey of saying good intention to man, of action, to hear her say those words, even though we don't have it all right, to hear her say that, it's like, okay, like, man, thank you, Lord, for giving me the grace to take each step in the right direction. And so the blessing that's there for you, that's what I would say to all the guys at least, is so rich.

Speaker 2

I mean, for you, Sarah. What? Because it went from a song. Yeah, I'll go with you wrote me a song to he's gonna Take his life.

Speaker 3

He's living it.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And I would say absolutely. At this point, I don't identify with that girl who is crying and saying, lead me. I don't. I don't feel that same way.

Like, somewhere along the way, it's shifted. You know, there was no pivotal moment, really. It was just time after time of fracture and repair and learning and growing.

And then here we are.

Speaker 3

Sarah, what would you say, and maybe Matt, you too, to the husband or wife that's listening, that's saying, "I've spoken the truth or maybe yelled it, and I'm still living in this fractured state, and I don't see any changes coming"?

And I've been praying a long time and waiting.

Speaker 1

I think just loving Jesus and fearing the Lord over your feelings, you know, and just being consistent and just keeping surrendering, praying, and trusting.

Because I think ultimately we survive because we love God the most, not each other. Does that make sense?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so I think that's why we're still together.

Speaker 4

I also think of a word like faithfulness. We look at it as a word that is the end game. But faithfulness is actually the hard thing we're doing right now. It's like the step that we're in.

It's like, you know, I think, like, today, like, what does that word even mean? If today I'm not. Again, back to action. Like, if today, when things are hard, when things feel horrible, when I feel stuck, when I see no end, that is faithfulness.

Walking that out right here, right now, today. And God. God honors that, even in those moments, like when we can't see it. It's like, that's the hard part of living out that word and words like it.

Speaker 3

You know, I was thinking as you guys were talking, we've talked about this love story of God's love for us. The Greek word is agape love. It's what he calls us to do in a marriage, which is unconditional love.

And it's not the feelings kind. It doesn't mention that. And we were speaking at this thing the other day, and I looked up what the definition of agape love is.

Speaker 2

She doesn't tell me on stage she's gonna read this thing. And I look over and she starts reading it. And it was the best part of the sermon.

Speaker 3

But what you've described is this. Agape love is a selfless, unconditional, and sacrificial love that is often considered the highest form of love.

It's a deliberate choice, not based on feelings or attraction. It involves goodwill and commitment to the well-being of others, even when they are undeserving.

Speaker 1

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 3

We can only get that kind of love, as you said, Matt, for identity, it's through the Father. That's the only way we can love unconditionally. Because it's the gospel.

Speaker 4

That's right.

Speaker 3

And you guys, what a beautiful picture of that.

Speaker 1

Thanks. Yeah, it's been wild.

Speaker 3

It's not perfect.

Speaker 4

No.

Speaker 3

And none of them are.

Speaker 1

No, no, no.

Speaker 2

I mean, I think, I mean, you keep saying it and it's your sort of, I don't know, subtitle Good intentions to action. I mean, I've been pastoring 40 years. I think the majority of the church is good intentions.

Speaker 4

Yeah, they're good people.

Speaker 1

Yeah, right.

Speaker 2

They have good intentions. Very few act because that's a hard thing to do. I want to do the right thing. I'm going to do the right thing. I tell my wife I'm going to. And then you just don't. I think I've done that for years.

I told a guy I don't know, five, seven, eight years ago, I said, here's Anne's visual to me recently. You're running and I've got a hold of your belt loop on the back and my feet are up in the air and I'm just running with you. And she goes, I can't run like this. Yeah. And I was telling this guy this.

Speaker 3

Story to maintain the relationships.

Speaker 2

And so I'm like, our kids. And we're gonna slow down, we're gonna start saying, no, we're not gonna do this.

Speaking babe. Da, da, da.

And about three years later, I was telling this guy the story and he goes, you know, it's been three years since you told me that story. I go, what? He goes, you told me that three.

Speaker 4

Years ago and you haven't stopped.

Speaker 2

Well, in other words, you haven't done it yet. And I think we just got. We're starting, are we? I guess not.

Speaker 4

We're still not doing it.

Speaker 2

I mean, we just are starting to say no. And it's still crazy, but it's less.

Speaker 3

We can see it coming.

Speaker 2

Yeah, maybe that's it.

Speaker 4

Yeah, but it's again, it's that good intentions.

Speaker 2

But man, you gotta make the hard call. Which you guys have modeled to do. This is a great conversation.

But before we continue, let me say this. We meet a ton of couples who say family life helped them when they needed it the most.

And that's what being a family life partner is all about. Helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.

Speaker 3

And we'd love for you to join us. So click the donate button@familylifetoday.com and become a partner today. This new song is incredibly. You've done a bunch more songs, actually.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

But this other one is pretty special too.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Give us a backstory on this one.

Speaker 4

"Days God Gave" is my latest single that I put out with Goatee Records.

I just realized, probably early this year, when my daughter went to Upper Room School Ministry, that even though it was for a temporary amount of time, she did tell us that she may or may not move back.

It really hit me like a ton of bricks. It's hard how fast it all went.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 4

And how fast it's all going. And that is my prayer.

We've been talking about presence. This song is a song about presence. It's a song about, you know, what do you want to look back on when you're old and gray? You know, you want to look back on all those faces and the photographs that are smiling back at you.

What do you want them to be saying to you and speaking to you? And for me, I really want those faces to communicate to me that I had lived a life of faithfulness and love and just loved the people that God's given me so well, and that they would hopefully love me back, too. They do.

Speaker 3

That's so sweet. Let me ask you this.

So you guys, Matt, you're on the road. Things are stressful in terms of coming and going.

Sarah, you're raising your kids, but we haven't even talked about your son who had a heart condition. I'm just gonna say this as a mom: there would be no greater stress on me than a child who's struggling with their health.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Give us a little snapshot of his life.

Speaker 1

And yeah. So we were talking about "Lead Me" and how it went number one. And, you know, it kind of took him to the pinnacle of his career.

But actually, as it was number one, we got the news and we were sitting bedside in the hospital with our third child who was dying with heart disease.

Speaker 3

He was dying.

Speaker 1

He did not die, but he was dying. He was critically ill. He had open heart surgery. He was on ECMO. He was not doing well.

How old was he when he was born? So when I was pregnant with our third child, at the six-month ultrasound, we found out that he had hypoplastic left heart. He only had half his heart.

They told us that if he made it to birth, he would likely not live past five. In the midst of this Lead Me journey, we had all of that as well.

Speaker 3

So did you say it had hit number one?

Speaker 4

Yeah. So basically Lead Me hit number one for three months on the Christian music charts. And during that time.

Speaker 1

The entire time?

Speaker 4

Yeah, during that time, yeah. We were in the hospital with Bowen and it did look as though we were going to lose him at times.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

We just didn't know if he was going to even survive. So it was really wild just being at the pinnacle of our career at that moment and being at one of the lowest places for us as parents, just grieving, not knowing whether or not Bowen was going to survive.

There were so many really close calls with him.

Speaker 1

So he was in the hospital for three months when he was born, and then we brought him home. Matt had hit the road because we needed to pay the medical bills and we needed income, and so it was like he couldn't stay.

And I'm placing an NG tube and have a child who's got a fresh open wound on his chest and up through.

Speaker 4

How old were your other kids?

Speaker 1

Two and four.

Speaker 2

You know, Matt, I thought you were an amazing guy, but I think she's a saint.

Speaker 4

She is a saint.

Speaker 3

I mean, wow, that's crazy.

Speaker 1

But it was like we both had to do our jobs because I needed him to work and he needed me to take care of Bowen. So it was interesting.

We didn't really understand grief before that because we really did have a pretty, as far as grief, easy life to that point. We hadn't had any tragedy.

And so once that happened, we realized that as a couple, you grieve differently. And when you have a chronically ill child, 85% will divorce.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

How did it affect you guys?

Speaker 1

The way I processed and the way I fought was I was present from 6 AM to midnight in the hospital with Bowen. Then I would go to the Ronald McDonald House and sleep, and that was it. And that's all I could think about.

While he was critical, that's all I could think about: getting him well, understanding what was wrong with him, and being an advocate for him.

And Matthew was grieving differently.

Speaker 4

Well, no, I just felt like I didn't know where I fit in. She asked every question. She was right at the bedside. Anytime a nurse would come or a doctor would come, she'd just boom, right in with all the questions, right in with all the stuff, you know? And I just felt like so many times, like I just didn't even know how to fit in there.

And so I would sit with her a lot of those hours. But the way that I felt most useful was I basically started keeping our family and friends up to date. You know, what was going on, asking them to pray for us and giving them daily updates.

And so I, at the time, had just started a little page that was really meant for our family and friends. And then we ended up having, like, a million people come to that page.

Speaker 2

Really?

Speaker 4

Yeah. To read about what was happening and pray for us. It was really amazing. But what ended up happening is, for me, it's like I found purpose there.

What was interesting is the ways that we coped with it differently did really make it difficult on our marriage because she was so tied to Bowen's bedside every second that she resented me in the times that I would ask her to even, like, hey, can we get lunch? Can we go for a walk? Can we just, like, get our heads together as parents?

I, like, I needed a wife, too, to walk through it with. I wanted to be together. But she's like, like, how can you ask me to, like, leave his bedside? And then for her, it was like, how can you leave his bedside?

Speaker 1

And how can you not understand all these medications and when they're to be given? And, you know, why can't you wrap your head around all the details with me, you know? And so we kind of. I mean, we grew contemptuous, really. I mean, we grew apart.

Speaker 4

It was like we were grieving differently.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I'm thinking of our listeners who have maybe a child with special needs or a chronic illness. Give them some tips, like regrets. I'm hearing those are regrets now. What did you do right? Or how would you do it different then?

Speaker 1

I should have had more empathy on his way of processing. I felt hurt, and I should have just been more understanding that he needed me. I should have pulled away and gone to lunch with him and trusted that the Lord was gonna. And had my mom sit bedside or. You know what I mean? That's fair.

I mean, he's my husband, and I care about him and his relationship and his feelings. But in that moment, it's like I couldn't. I couldn't see anything else but Bowen because it was so acute.

We've done better. As he's gotten older, I can definitely balance all the relationships. And he isn't the center of everything.

Speaker 3

Which is good news for the listener. Like, he lived. And he is 15.

Speaker 4

Yep.

Speaker 1

And he's still technically very critical, but currently he's wonderful. So living a very normal life at home by himself right now with his.

Speaker 3

Siblings would say he's Artistic. Because he's.

Speaker 4

He is. Yeah. Yeah. He's a very musical kid. He loves to write music.

He's got, you know, logic on his computer and records music, always having song ideas that he's producing.

And, "Dad, can I check this out? You know, I want to make an album."

And he's so cool.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

If you're going through trauma, I think it's important to look at how trauma manifests and then learn about it.

And then watch yourself, because you fragment and you detach and you withdraw from each other.

And I think had I known that's what you do when you have trauma, then we wouldn't have made some of the mistakes we made, if that makes sense.

Speaker 4

Yeah. We would have looked for ways, I think, to be more. To even not just be more gracious, but more to, like, think more graciously of each other.

Speaker 3

You know, give each other grace.

Speaker 4

Yeah. Even just internally, those conversations we have with ourselves when we're upset with others, our spouse, the lies we tell ourselves, the stories we create, maybe we would tell ourselves more gracious stories about each other.

Speaker 3

I think that's.

Speaker 2

You wonder. You know, there's marriages that the husband feels. Well, it could go either way, but I think the husband can feel, like, detached when there isn't trauma.

It's just that my wife is more connected to my kids than me, you know what I'm saying? And it's like she really doesn't want to pull away from them, you know, leave me alone.

I want to be a mom. They need me.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

We've been there.

Speaker 3

Oh, totally.

Speaker 2

And you can do it as grandparents.

Speaker 4

Yeah. How do I know?

Speaker 2

How do I know that same thing can happen? You feel like I'm not priority in your life anymore. The kids or the grandkids are.

Speaker 3

Well, I can remember when my very best friend, my sister, was dying. She was diagnosed and died within five months.

Dave's guys in his group came to me and said, "Hey, Dave needs you." Because I was with my sister part of the time, and she had four kids in a different state, I was so resentful of his friends and Dave.

Like, here's what I thought: get your stuff together, because my sister's dying and I'm gonna be with her right now. I felt like he was whiny. Like, why stop whining?

Speaker 4

And guess what?

Speaker 2

She was right.

Speaker 3

No, I think we were both right.

Speaker 1

I mean, it's both. It's both.

Speaker 2

No, she was right in that one. I mean, I said something to my guys one night like, man, Anne's gone a lot and stuff.

I didn't know they'd go running to her.

Hey, Dave is really struggling. I'm like, I didn't say I was struggling. I just said they broke the codes, man.

Speaker 3

Honestly, I wasn't giving one thought to how Dave was doing. Cause I was wrecked and my sister was wrecked. And I'm like, But I'm married and he's struggling too. And I need to give some time and attention to Dave.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But on the other side, it's like, give your wife, give your spouse grace. They need to be where they need to be right now. And you're gonna make it.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And those are the most beautiful love stories. When we walk through the valley and the mountaintops together, I think you're bringing.

Speaker 2

It all the way back to the beginning.

Speaker 3

I'm just thinking of Sarah in her overalls, dancing in the sun with no shoes. Like, think of all the things you've gone through since that night. And that's true love.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

Way to go. By the way, you can get lead me@familylife today.com and go to the show notes. Click on the link still out there, still available. And you've got the song to go with.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Where do they. Where do they download the song? Anywhere.

Speaker 4

Anywhere. Listen to music. Yep.

Speaker 3

Guys, it's been really fun.

Speaker 4

Yeah, it's been fun. Thanks for having us on.

Speaker 1

Thanks for having us.

Speaker 2

Thanks for your honest Orlando touring or something. You're welcome to come in here and.

Speaker 4

Awesome.

Speaker 1

Awesome.

Speaker 2

Do anything.

Speaker 1

Appreciate it, man.

Speaker 3

We would love to pray for you. I would personally love to pray for you. And we even have a team at family life that can pray for you. Just go to familylife.com prayforme.

Speaker 2

Family life today is a donor supported production of family life, a crew ministry celebrating 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.