FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

How many times have people said, like, we're getting divorced. We're just not happy anymore? It's a choice.

Speaker 2

My goodness. If it was my responsibility to make James happy, it's like, wait, you're putting all your happiness on me? I don't want that responsibility. It's God that's going to give you joy, and his presence is fullness of joy.

Speaker 3

So how do you get out of a selfish perspective to a selfless perspective? Well, I got to tell you this. Last time we met, you drove through a snow tsunami.

Speaker 2

That's how much I wanted to be with you.

Speaker 1

Arlene Pelicane, we are so impressed by you.

Speaker 3

Do you remember that at all?

Speaker 2

You know, I do remember just thinking, like, there is so much snow in this parking lot. What in the world am I doing?

But it must have been, like, a grace of God thing, because I honestly was never afraid. Like, I wasn't ever in a spot where it was dangerous.

I felt like I just drove slowly and just made it to the airport, and it worked out. So I think God must have been my little snowplow or something.

Speaker 1

Are you. Are you in Southern California?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I'm in San Diego. I do not know how to drive in snow. My husband would attest to that.

Speaker 1

That says so much about her.

Speaker 2

She's pretty impressive. Both. And I'm a rules follower. It's like, you are. You're supposed to be at that interview. I will be at that interview.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I don't know if you knew this, but that was our first week hosting Family Life Today without Bob Lepine.

Speaker 2

Isn't that amazing?

Speaker 3

Who, you know, hosted this for 30 years. He was our pro. We're all scared, and then a snowstorm comes and everybody cancels. You and JP Pakluta were the only ones. That means you're a warrior.

Speaker 2

Yay.

Speaker 3

That's what you are.

Speaker 1

I'm excited that we're gonna talk about your marriage book, because I'm just gonna say it. Arlene. I love this book. You're funny.

Speaker 2

You.

Speaker 1

You are practical.

Speaker 3

She doesn't say that to every guest. Trust me.

Speaker 1

And I was reading this out loud to Dave. Like, you have to listen to this. This is when you know, like, this is really good.

Speaker 2

This is gold status. If we're going, we're going with the read aloud to husband ploy. That's good. Thank you, Ann.

Speaker 3

Well, talk about you open up the book with camping.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

And men like camping. We literally, two days ago, did a couple. It was called couples camp for this church in Cincinnati, Crossroads Church.

It's a really big, big megachurch. And they had 2,000 people in a tent on a field. And it poured down rain Friday night.

Speaker 1

Arlene, we're driving to this thing thinking, what are we doing? We're not campers, you know, we're like, this is going to be awful. And it's that wet. I mean, it's raining hard and we're going to be sleeping in a tent.

Speaker 3

I didn't bring boots. I wore my Air Jordans. Oh my goodness, all nice and white. I had jeans on. I get out of my car and the pastor there, who's leading the whole thing, just looks at me and goes, "Are you stupid?"

I go, "What?" He goes, "You have all the wrong clothes on. You don't wear cotton when it's raining."

All this, you know, I found out there's this whole camping, you know, world.

Speaker 2

Your jeans are never gonna dry. Your shoes are totally raw.

Speaker 3

Totally.

Speaker 1

The whole weekend I go to the bathroom in the dark.

Speaker 2

Oh my word.

Speaker 1

Oh yeah. I'm like, oh, I forgot my flashlight. But it's okay. I'm kind of trying to go somewhere that people can't see me outside in the woods.

And I didn't know. I can't see. And I go down this mud hill. I don't butt down. My whole hand sinks all the way into the mud.

And I'm laughing out loud in the dark by myself thinking, I am so dumb. What am I doing?

Speaker 3

And I'll just add this. It was the greatest marriage event we've ever done. And we've done marriage events all around the country for 30 plus years. It was amazing.

I think part of what happened was that God showed up. At one point, we asked couples if they wanted to repent, to not stand up, but to go down on their knees in a mud pit. I think half the room did.

They baptized hundreds yesterday. Hundreds were burning their divorce papers. It was powerful. It was probably the best ever.

Speaker 1

God did so.

Speaker 3

And I think part of it is what you get into in the intro of your book is there's something happens when you're in crisis, when you're not comfortable. Cause you're not a swanky hotel with nice food and king sized beds with perfect linen.

Speaker 1

Guys, I'm just gonna say I like the bougie life. I like the good sh. At the Marriott. I just like that.

Speaker 2

Does he speak to me there too?

Speaker 3

He speaks both places.

Speaker 1

He does. But I'm just saying I was surprised. Like, man, this is powerful. I can't afford the bougie stuff, but I like it. So what was it like for you? Take us back to that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, this is 26 years ago. James and I are newlyweds. He loved camping. You know, he grew up like, put everything on your back, sleep under the stars. This is amazing.

And I grew up like, we're Asian. Asians don't camp. So we would go and, you know, you stay at the hotel and then you walk around the lake. And that was camping.

So when it was like, we camp now. So we were newlyweds. We were in Dallas.

Speaker 1

You're like, am I a camper?

Speaker 2

Am I a camper now? So it was a young marriage couples retreat. You know, like what you're talking about. And James said this would be a great way to meet people. And I could not argue with that. You know, we're at this new church. We're new.

Okay, fine. But you know how when you say, sure, but then inside you're like, yeah, I really don't wanna do this? And so the closer it got, the more I got like, I really do not wanna do this.

Speaker 1

Were you whining, uncomfortable? What were you doing?

Speaker 2

I was just quiet. I was just quiet. So, yeah, quiet is bad, right, Dave? So we're in the car, it's like a two-hour drive. And we're going. And I'm totally quiet. He's like, do you wanna listen to music? Whatever. Are you comfortable? Yeah, like the whole time.

So when we get to the campsite, he stops before we go in, turns off the car and says, are you gonna be like this all weekend? Cause if you are, we can just turn around and go back home. Cause I'm here to have fun. And I start to cry, right? Cause I'm a newlywed. And I'm just like. And I realize I'm being selfish. I'm such a baby. I'm sorry. You know, so like, okay, I'm sorry. I'll try to have a better attitude. I'm sorry.

Is it funny? Like, you're so like this with your spouse, but then you meet the other people and you're like, oh, hi. I love your tent. It's so pretty. Look at my sleepy. You know, you like, pretend like you know how to do all this stuff.

So the night in the tent, I mean, I've never slept outside in a tent before. You never had in my entire life.

Speaker 1

How old were you?

Speaker 2

I was probably like 28 years old. I've never done this before. So I told him, if I have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, and there was an actual restroom, you know, I said, will you walk me there? And he's like, sure. Great. So he's asleep like that, right? Nor. Whatever. He's totally asleep. I'm like. I'm like, ah. I'm, like, so scared all the time. And I have to go to the bathroom. So I push him, like, I gotta go to the bathroom. I gotta go to the bathroom. And he is not moving. Like, does not even budge. I want to go now. I want nothing. So I. Oh, fine. So I unzip the tent, and I, like, get my little flashlight and I walk. And I'm like, my flashlight. And my hand is shaking, and I'm just like, oh, what is this?

I get to the bathroom, I turn on the light, and it's all the bugs, like, scurrying right around. And I'm just like, oh, my word. I'm so scared. So by the time I got back in the tent, I was, like, shaking. Like, I was so scared. And now looking back, I'm just like, grow up. I mean, it was a bathroom. It wasn't like a mudslide like yours. So I get back in the tent and, women, have we not done this before? I start crying loudly so he can hear me. I tried to kind of wake up, and he's like, are you crying? I'm like, yes. You said you would take me to the bathroom, and you didn't take me. And he was just like, oh, my goodness.

So he's like, oh, my goodness. Oh, what is wrong with this woman that she cannot walk, you know, 20 feet to a bathroom? And I'm like, how could you not take me? So that experience, I'm gonna give it, like, a C plus, B minus. That was like our first trip to try to do that. But it is this idea of, like, okay, you like this. I will try this. And when you're first married, I think it's hard because it's out of the comfort zone. You're supposed to make me happy. You're my dream boy. Like, why are you making me go camping?

But then, as marriage continues, as marriage has continued, now it's easier, right? It gets easier. Like, now I'm like, okay, a ten with a bathroom. Whoa, that's good. Because now we do the 10. Like, your style, the mud, you know? So you have to adjust. You just have to adjust and find the humor in it.

Speaker 1

But, Arlene, sometimes we don't. Because at the beginning, we'll just try it, and we'll even fake it because we're like, he loves me.

Speaker 3

Feelings are high infatuation.

Speaker 1

But after a while, I think when people have bad experiences or maybe they're thinking, "Yeah, you didn't do that," we can get resentful.

Or, you know, and so then we stop having fun. I think what you're writing about—I love how practical you are in this—but I think the expectations in marriage are always surprising, isn't it?

It's surprising.

Speaker 2

And just when you said that, I think of God's mercies are new every morning.

Like, every morning you have a new mercy.

And maybe that new mercy is for your every day of your marriage. Right.

That you have a new mercy to start again, to be like, okay, let me pivot this back to how I used to be.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Well, for most people, marriage is hard.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And making marriage easier. What were you thinking with that title?

Speaker 2

It's like, we didn't want to do making marriage easy because that's false advertising. And it is the hard in marriage that makes it great. Because not everyone can do this. Like, this is something good. Like, this is something to attain to. You don't. Like if you walk into a place and it's a beautifully furnished place that didn't happen by accident. Like, people worked at that.

So it is this idea. You don't stumble upon a life full of treasures. You build such a life. So there's effort involved. But why does it have to be so hard? Right? That's what you hear when a poor young person thinks about getting married.

What do they hear? Oh, marriage is so hard. It's so hard. It's like, nobody tells you. Like, no, it's really good. Like, it's a good kind of hard. It'll make you a much better person.

Speaker 1

It's like having babies.

Speaker 2

You're going to love your life so much more. The idea is, instead of waking up to say, "Oh, it's so hard," just ask the question, "How could I make it easier today?" And that's it. Like, a little teeny bit easier.

So maybe it's okay. I'm gonna let go of these grudges. Like, why am I so easily offended? Maybe I work on that. Or maybe it's, "Hey, we need to start eating together again." Let's just, you know, I feel disconnected from you, so let's just go out to dinner. That's easy enough.

You know, so being as specific as possible, if I'm trying to work out, let's say. And I just say, "I'm gonna try," but I'm gonna try to have a better marriage. I'm gonna try to work out. Nothing happens. But if I say I'm gonna join this class, I've been going to the same spin class for 20 years in my neighborhood with this.

Say yes. With the same lady who does it out of her garage. My mom and I go. So every Tuesday and every Thursday at 8:15, my mom and I go spin. And we always do that. Why?

Speaker 1

It's easy.

Speaker 2

I've paid my money. It's an appointment. My spin instructor knows me. It's never a question. So it's easy because we just do it all the time.

So in our marriage, how can we be more specific? Like, hey, this is what we're going to do. And bring. Make it. Make it like, with someone, like probably your husband accounts or whatever, like an appointment.

And it just helps it be easier.

Speaker 1

I love that because you're saying, like, it's not. You're not saying just, I want to work out. You're saying, I've made a decision to work out.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

So even in your book, you have four decisions that have made marriage.

Speaker 3

I got to say this, though, before we jump into those four decisions, you are a very positive. I mean, you even say in the book sometimes, you know, your kids make fun of you. How was it?

Speaker 1

Great. Yeah.

Speaker 3

So great.

Speaker 2

So good. They don't believe me because I think everything is so good.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So there's this demeanor about you. Is your husband the same way?

Speaker 2

No, my husband is the one that's like the. So that's. It balances out perfectly. He is a positive person, but he is much more critical.

So I am very naive and believing, like, oh, you wanna sell me that? I will buy 10. And my husband will be like, you will not use that. Go return that.

So he balances me out. He is a refiner. He sees what is wrong.

Speaker 1

So you guys are a good balance. The thing I love about your book too, is it's making marriage easier. But how to love and like your spouse for life. Cause we've talked about that a lot. Like, in marriage, it seems like, yeah, I love you.

Speaker 2

I love you.

Speaker 1

But I don't always like you.

Speaker 2

But you're driving me crazy.

Speaker 3

Yeah. How do you get to the like part?

Yeah, because, you know, we shared this weekend at this marriage retreat. I was with four or five of my best buddies that I've been in a small group for years. We're going to one of their father's funerals years ago in Memphis, Tennessee.

And I'm driving this rental car. I say to these guys, because I was doing some research, "Hey, let me ask you a question. Do you feel like your wife loves you?" I know all their wives, know all their kids, every guy in the room with me. I mean, every guy in the car, within five seconds, answered, "Yep."

I go, "Here, second question. Do you feel like your wife likes you?" Every guy in the car, within five seconds, answered, "Nope."

Speaker 2

No, I said.

Speaker 3

And they're like, why are you asking that? I go, doesn't that feel weird? Like, we know we're loved, but she really doesn't like much about me. Is that what you found?

Speaker 2

Isn't that interesting?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

So one thing I think that helps is whenever I think, you know, I do not like James very much right now. Like, and it's usually because he's asking me to do something I don't want to do. Like, he might be like, let's go work out together. That's, you know, our thing. Yeah, let's go camping, whatever. Like, I don't wanna do that.

So then I quickly think to myself, well, you know what? There are probably moments, many moments, maybe right now, where he doesn't like you either. Cause sometimes we think we're so high and mighty. Like, I don't like you.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

But then you realize, oh, my word, they don't like me either. And then for us as women, we want to be liked. Yes. So then it turns it around. Like, wait, how can I be more likable to you? And then it just all goes around.

So I think it is that question of, how can I still stay curious and interested in this after 10, 20, 50 years? Because if I'm curious about you, if I'm showing caring, if I'm interested, like, what are you looking at on YouTube? What are you doing? And I'm really genuinely curious and interested. They're gonna feel like, oh, they like me. Like, they're interested in me. They want to enter my world.

So I think that decision to stay curious, ask what they are doing, and be interested in them. And then another thing is to do stuff together that is fun. So that when you're doing something fun, you look across and it's not your child, and it's not your sister or your brother or your guy friends, right? Or your girlfriends, but it's your spouse.

Then you're like, oh, I like this person because we're at this concert together, or we're at this football game together, or we're riding bikes together, or we're walking hand in hand along the beach together or the lake. And then so do things that you like with your spouse. And then that liking, you know, if you're only paying bills with your spouse, if you're only doing the budget with...

Speaker 1

Your spouse, or if you're only raising.

Speaker 2

Carpooling with the spouse, then it's like, well, no wonder I don't like you. Because we're always just saying, like, bad things, news to each other or whatever.

Speaker 3

I mean, I love how you started, though. You said, you know, I don't know if I wrote another marriage book. I think I would say something along. The most important character quality needed for a great marriage. I'm not gonna tell you.

Speaker 1

Oh, I'm so curious.

Speaker 3

You illustrated it. You don't. What would you say?

Speaker 1

Well, based on her illustration, I'm thinking. What you're thinking is positivity. Like, that's really important.

Speaker 3

Well, no, that wasn't what I was thinking. Although that's huge. When Anne's not positive, I almost can't function.

Speaker 1

And I am generous.

Speaker 3

She is always positive. And then when she's not, I'm like, are you okay? I mean, even if it's for like, five minutes of, like, am I that insecure? I gotta have you up. Come on. You know she is always.

Speaker 1

Ok, what is it?

Speaker 3

No, what I was thinking when you said, "I don't like things about my spouse," is that you gotta look in the mirror and say, "There must be things about me he doesn't like." That's humility. I think humility is huge.

Of course, there are many aspects to consider, but it is significant. Usually, we're quick to say, "I don't like this" or "I don't like that," without stopping to think, "Wait a minute. I've got issues, too." We only see our spouse's flaws and often believe that theirs are the biggest problems in our marriage.

But when you said, "What if I look in the mirror and say, I know there are things they don't like about me?" that’s a big realization. Spouses often don’t do that; they only see the problems with their partner. It’s hard to look in the mirror. That means I have to have enough humility to say, "I'm going to work on me, not you."

Speaker 1

I feel like that's what God's been working on me for the last two years. Just because I'm always—well, not always, but I'm often thinking, if Dave would just...

And you're right, Arlene. I think I'm starting to see what God is asking me to do. My pridefulness and just thinking, I'm so good at this—in our marriage. Not in other things, but in our marriage.

And if Dave would just... It's kind of like the plank in your eye in Scripture. Is that Matthew? What?

Speaker 3

Matthew 7.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So anyway, I wanna get to. Because you guys, you're talking about four decisions that have really made your marriage easier.

And when listeners are like, oh, I'm in for that. Help me make my marriage easier.

So let's get into the first one: playing by the rules.

Speaker 2

Play by the rules. Have the same rules and play by them. So, like, if you're playing a game and it's like, oh, the goal changed, the goal post changed, or, wait, why are there so many players on your team and not on my team? Like, you have to have real rules in sports or it's not fun. And the same is true in marriage. If you don't have the same guidelines, you're using a different playbook. You're just doing different things. Like, it is not working.

But if you get on the same page, so first of all, what does God say? If you're both believers, then it's, what does the word of God tell us about how we're supposed to treat each other? Let's do that. Okay. This is a vow for life. That means divorce is not an option. So let's treat each other in a way that we're going to be able to sustain this and even enjoy this all of our lives.

So there's the big rules, right? The big ones. But then there's all the small rules that you have as a couple. So maybe it's, we don't yell at each other, or we eat dinner every day, or, you know, we take physical intimacy seriously. One of my chapters is, but we had sex last Tuesday. You know, so it's like, you have to have these rules that make your marriage work and talk about them.

One of those rules, you know, would be, I can tell you anything. I mean, that's how it was when you were dating. But then after your marriage, you're like, oh, you know that there are certain taboo subjects you do not bring up in the marriage unless you want, you know, a big, big discussion that doesn't turn out good.

So just. It's humility. Like what Dave was saying. The humility says, no, you really can tell me anything and I will listen to you.

Speaker 3

I want to hear about you eating every day.

Speaker 2

Oh, yes.

Speaker 3

Because even when we're reading your book, we screenshot it and send it to our kids. Like, look at the success rate in marriages that just have a meal every Day. So do you guys do that?

Speaker 2

Yeah, we do. So from the very beginning. And this is habits, right?

Speaker 1

It's habits and decisions.

Speaker 2

So if it's habits and decisions. So if you don't eat regularly together right now, after this conversation, you could. And make it easier. So let's try for once a week, twice a week. Like, if you're not eating at all, start with a smaller number and work up to it.

But basically, when we were first married, my husband, you know, it was a given because, you know, this is 26 years ago. It was pretty common 26 years ago, that you just eat together every day. That was. It wasn't.

Speaker 1

We never weren't eating.

Speaker 2

We never thought about it. We just did it. It's like, we eat, it's. We're hungry, let's eat. Like, it wasn't a big deal.

But what my husband did was, he said, the first 30 days of our marriage, let's not have a turn on the TV. Because he wanted the first 30 days, he's like, I don't want to just, like, watch TV at the end of the day. I want to, like, talk to you and stuff. So I was like, okay, I love that. And that was weird to me.

Yeah, that was weird to me. Like, I worked in television. I was working at the 700 Club before I got married, and it was like, I can't watch TV. So it wasn't easy. But it set the tone that we talk at dinner time.

And that has truly carried out 26 years later, three kids later. I mean, we probably have every dinner together. Like, it's very odd. Obviously, if I'm out of town, we're not having dinner together. But even if there's a sports event or something, we would usually have the dinner before or after together around a table, not in cars.

So this is a habit. And it really is something that brings you together because you have to eat. So that way you're listening to each other, talking to each other every single day.

Speaker 1

And I'm guessing you have no devices.

Speaker 2

And there's no devices at the table. Right? So they're on the bookshelf behind, and that's that. Nothing's on except music, and we're talking.

Speaker 1

That does not happen as much anymore.

Speaker 3

No. Families don't sit down. Couples don't sit down. I mean, not once a day, maybe.

Speaker 2

Once a week, just to sit down. And even if you eat for 20 minutes, 15 minutes, but you're sitting across from each other with food with no devices, and you're actually talking to each other.

And maybe the first time you're kind of like, well, this is weird. And then you both instinctively want to reach out for your phone and like, do something. Don't do it.

Yeah, picture that phone like a third person. You'd not have another woman. You wouldn't have another man sitting with you. And here's your phone distracting you because it knows every single thing about you.

Like, just think it's watching you all the time and seeing what you like and then showing it to you. You know, a human can do that, observe you all the time and do that.

So to realize I need to put that third person away from me as much as possible to spend time with my spouse.

Speaker 1

And this isn't something you're just like, hey, this is a good idea to have dinner together. This is what I sent our kids. If you have children, researchers have found that eating family meals together improves your kids' academic performance, increases their confidence, improves cardiovascular health, and reduces the risk of substance abuse, depression, teen pregnancy, and obesity.

Like, what in the world?

Speaker 2

Right? Because you're serving more nutritious food. You are having conversations. Your kids feel loved and connected to you. They feel belonging so they don't have to look for the love in those other places.

So it is kind of crazy to think about the protective nature of a family dinner. I mean, grandma knew all along, right? It's just like gather people around food and talk to them and make them belong somewhere. And that solves so many problems.

You know, we think complex. We think, oh my goodness, my kids are going crazy, my marriage is in the garbage. We think we have so many complex problems. But complex problems don't require complex solutions.

It could be as simple of a solution to make your marriage easier this year. Like, hey, let's start eating together again and let's do it like once a week, and then let's do it twice a week.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And then let's have coffee in the morning if we can't do dinner. But let's do something every day where we're just like, hey, I'm here for you. Let's eat together. And just start there.

Speaker 3

That's good. And then, you know, you go into, you can say anything and you read that and you're like, well, no, I don't. Yeah, I really can't.

Speaker 2

But you can in the pelican household.

Speaker 3

Well, tell us about electrolysis. That was hilarious.

Speaker 2

So as you can already tell, my husband James is not like the run-of-the-mill person. He just does things differently. And actually, you should buy that, but you can decide if you want to edit this out or not. But there's actually probably no such thing as a run-of-the-mill person, so that's probably not good. So my husband James, he is a very unusual person, as you can tell.

When we were very seriously dating, falling in love, and in graduate school, it was kind of his first serious girlfriend, right? He was thinking through this, like, "I really want to tell her something, but I don't know if I can." So we're on this date, and he says to me, "I want to ask you a question, but I just don't know how to say it." I'm thinking, oh, I hope this is not the proposal. Like, this would be so lame if this was the proposal. I say, "You can tell me anything, baby." And he's like, "Well, you have these hairs on your upper lip, and I'm wondering if you've ever considered electrolysis."

That is just the last thing I would have ever thought anyone would say to me. I was like, "Well, you know, I've never thought of that before. And look at the time, I have to go." I was just so awkward. I went back home, went to the bathroom, and looked in the mirror, Dave. This hair that had been there all my life, all of a sudden I was like, "Oh, my word. I have, like, a mustache. Oh, my word. This is so embarrassing." I never noticed it in my whole life. I was just like, "It's fuzzy. Big deal. It's fuzzy." I'm not like a spa girl, you know? I don't do my nails. I don't go out and do all these things.

So I was just like, yeah. I get the phone book, yellow pages, laser, laser, laser, laser, laser, laser. I go to the laser place and literally call and get three sessions to zap my lip. At that time, it was like a zap, and it hurt. I think it's painless now, but it hurt. When I did all these things, we did not get into a fight. I actually zapped my lip and got rid of the hairs on my lip. James was like, "Oh, my word, I think I could marry this girl because now she doesn't have hair on her lip."

Now I know I really could tell her anything. In his defense, because people just go wild, right? Like, I cannot believe that your husband would dare. Like, your boyfriend would—how dare he say to you, "You should go get some electrolysis"? How dare he? In his mind, he tells me, "You know, I'm thinking about asking you to marry me. And that means we are gonna make big decisions together. Like, what are we gonna do with the money? Where are we gonna live? How many children are we gonna have? These are big decisions. And if I cannot talk to you about the hair on your lip, obviously, this is not gonna work."

So it was, like, so funny. Really, when our spouse tells us something that's so awkward and whatever, but there's that hint of truth. I mean, I really did have hair on my lip, and it really did help me to get electrolysis. So again, we're looping back to humility—the ability.

Speaker 3

That's what I was gonna say.

Speaker 2

To be able to be like, you know what?

Speaker 1

I received it.

Speaker 2

I guess I do. Yeah. And I think it is something we can learn. Like, if naturally you're very defensive and you're easily offended, this is something you can learn to be like, you know what? God help me to be. Love covers a multitude of sins. So help me to be more gracious. Help me to just not be so offendable.

Because we are living in times where it's like, you have the right to be offended. In fact, if you are living unoffended, then you must be not looking at something. You know, you're just pie in the sky. We're just told, like, you gotta be offended about something.

And for us to realize that's not a fun way to live, and especially not in a marriage.

Speaker 3

But can you say anything? Like, if. If that conversation had been. And again, this is before you're married. If it had been, you need to lose 50 pounds or 25 pounds.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

Is that any different? I mean, to you, it'd probably been okay. A lot of people will be like, the hair on my face or talking about my weight is.

Speaker 2

We are very protective about our appearance and those things. And there is an openness, and it's hard. Like, we still have those conversations. Like, James and I still have these kinds of conversations every marriage does. And in the moment, a lot of times, what I will do is I will just be like, I cannot believe we're talking about this. You know, something like that. Like, I cannot believe. Like, do you not know that I'm doing so much better than X, Y, and Z amount of people out there? Right. That's kind of how we are, that we think, like, I'm doing so good, and I can't believe you're not seeing that I'm doing so good. And so sometimes you just draw away for a little bit. And by a little bit, I mean, you know, an hour. I'm not talking about six months or anything, but you just say, lord, like, just soften my heart towards this. Help my spouse to see me, like, to be kind to me, like, whatever it is, like, pray about it, whatever's happening. And if you're the one presenting the hard truth, you know, when he told me about the lip and when he tells me about the pounds or anything like that, let's say he's not saying it in a snobby, snarky way, like, he's trying to be as humble as possible.

Speaker 1

It sounds like he's speaking the truth in lies.

Speaker 2

He's trying. He's trying his best to speak the truth in lies.

Speaker 3

Have you ever had to say anything to him about the hair on his forehead or the hair under his armpit? I don't know anything that you've had to call him.

Speaker 2

Not the hair. He takes care of his own hair. But yeah, when there are things to say, then it's usually something that would really help me, would be if you would. X, Y, Z is usually how I say it. And then he is actually receptive to that. And that is what gives that nice give and take of that. We can talk about these things together. So maybe you're listening and you're the spouse that's like, you know, like, no, you cannot tell me things. Then it's our cue, like, hey, let's be that open, safe spouse that you could tell me things. If you're the one that's, like, always spouting all their corrections, then, hey, maybe it's time to, you know, don't spout so much corrections and make sure that you do have that ratio, John Gottman's ratio of five positive things to one negative thing. Like, you've gotta have a big storage of positive things towards your spouse in order to say anything. Or else that mean thing you say really does. It's not working. So you gotta have that stream. So start with that stream and then bring up, you know, and with prayer, like, God, soften our hearts towards this and always. The point is we wanna grow closer together as a couple. And I'm doing this for your good, our good, not like, it's just what I want. You gotta do it my way. Like, that doesn't usually go over well, but this is good for both of us.

Speaker 1

You talk about it in the terms of a dragon, a small dragon. Talk about that. Like, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 2

Yeah, there was a book. And in the book, there is a real dragon in this book. And the little boy's like, look, mom, there's a dragon. And it's this little cute dragon. But she's like, there's no such thing as dragons. And then as the book continues, the dragon gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And she keeps saying, there's no such thing as dragons until it gets so big that it drags off the house and all this. And finally she says, oh, yeah, I guess there is such a thing as a dragon. And once she acknowledges that dragon, it goes boop, right back down to the little tiny size. And the idea is sometimes, you know, the other one of the spouses is saying, hey, we have this problem. And the other spouse is like, we don't have a problem. We're fine. We're fine. And this problem is just so huge because you will just not acknowledge the problem. But once that spouse says, yeah, we do have a problem, then all of a sudden, that huge dragon that you think will just take you down gets right back to its size in a size you can manage, where both of you can acknowledge, hey, this is something we gotta work on.

Speaker 1

I mean, that was Dave and I, because I would say, you're not home. You're never home. And he would say, I am home. I'm totally home. So I'm saying, we've got this humongous dragon. He goes, no, we don't. And so even if you don't think there's a dragon, if your spouse is saying there is one. There is one.

Speaker 2

There is one.

Speaker 3

I mean, there are untouchables for couples, and you mention them. How does a couple talk about sex?

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Pornography.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I mean, there's a whole list.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I loved your list. Sex, pornography, opposite sex, friends, video gaming, phone use, unhealthy weights, spiritual compatibility, politics in laws and extended family death. We all have our issues and topics that we kind of lean away from because there will be a conflict. How do you and James enter into that? Like. And talk to the person that's maybe, like, this is super hard for me to even bring it up because they're so defensive. How do we start?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think asking questions of the other person. So let's say you're the person who wants to talk about it. Because if you're the person who doesn't want to talk about it, you're not doing anything. You're just gonna sit there. Right. But if you're the person that wants to talk about it than asking questions that are calibrated. Questions that you've thought about and that you might start with. Let's, you know, like, hey, I've been thinking about our money or our sex life, or I'm concerned about pornography. And I know this may be very awkward, but we need to talk about it. And then asking questions, you know, so. And then, you know, it's hard, it's awkward to put yourself in the other person's shoes. And it could be, you know, and start with some accusation of yourself, like, hey, I know this is gonna be awk. You're going to think I'm the nosy wife. You're going to think I'm a, you know, too strong of a husband, but I care about you too much. I want to have this conversation. Do you think we could, you know, and most people will be like, okay, like, do it and then make it easy. I think the first time you ask it, like, don't ask, like, the super, super hard thing, but just kind of with a start, like, hey, it's been a while since we've had sex. Like, is there anything I could do to make this better for you that's so good. So you just start there yourself and just start there, and then maybe that's all you can handle right then, and that's fine. And then you kind of build on that. But I think sex is a big one. That's the big one in. In our marriage. And I think in a lot of marriages is, you know, I write in the book about how, like, the woman is like, why does he want it? You know, not exactly, but something like this. Why does he want it so much? And the husband's saying, why does she want it so little? And she's thinking, I hope he doesn't touch me because I want to go to sleep. And he's thinking, like, why doesn't she touch me anymore? She doesn't want me anymore. You know, and it can go the reverse way, and it goes the reverse way too, but it's some kind of incompatibility. And what really helped me was talking with Shaunti Feldhahn, and she and Dr. Michael Sistema have done this research showing that there is, like, that receptive desire and that initiating desire. And I know you all have talked about that, and it was so helpful. Kind of sad for James because he's, you know, as a typical male. And again, it can go either way. You know, the males initiate and the women receive, and that Initiation. It's like what you see in the movies. Like, oh, they both want it so bad. And so you're thinking, like, oh, we both always have to want it so bad so passionately. And my poor sweet James is thinking, like, why is she not like that? Why doesn't she, like, act like that?

Speaker 3

Every husband's thinking that, right?

Speaker 1

Not every, but, yeah, many, many.

Speaker 2

And then he realizes, oh, she's receptive. Like, she'll respond, but there's a little bit of mourning in that. Because he's thinking, I wish she would be the initiator. I wish she would want me like I want her. But just the ability to have these kinds of talks is really huge. So let's say your sex life is not exactly where you want it, but at least you're able to talk about it. That is the first step to being like, it's not a taboo topic. Let's talk about this. Because if you can talk about it, then statistically you're gonna do a lot better. Cause usually if you're open to communication, communication about it, it's going to get better.

Speaker 1

And you're right. If we don't talk about it, it can just grow in our heads.

Speaker 2

The dragon.

Speaker 1

It's. The dragon gets bigger and bigger. And the enemy man, when it's in our heads and in the darkness, he wins. But to bring it into the light to talk to your spouse about it, that's a win. Even though it can be weird and awkward and difficult.

Speaker 2

And that helped you to realize this is a decision. Like, it's a decision to make sex part of your regular rhythm of marriage. Because I used to think, like, oh, well, that's not good. I have to feel like it. Like, it's not honest if I don't feel like it. But then I realized you can decide to do this. Just like you decide to pick up the kids and smile when they get in the car, even when you don't feel like it. Like, you can decide, I'm gonna be happy. You know what I mean? And then being receptive, you become happy. So you might not start that way, but then you do. So it is this good thing of, okay, this is something worth talking about and worth scheduling. I remember hearing very early in our marriage, if couples who have kids who do not schedule sex do not have sex. And that. That really helped me to realize we have to schedule this. I remember. Schedule other things.

Speaker 1

Yes. And before we got married. I like, that's so awful. How depressing is that?

Speaker 2

Awful Schedule like a doctor's Appointment or something.

Speaker 1

Get out your calendar and you have to. Yeah, that's so good.

Speaker 3

Well, you know, I'm listening right now, thinking there's a wife or a husband are both listening, and I just want to say to you, this conversation about sex or pornography or money.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

It takes courage sometimes because you're afraid to go there. Maybe it's not gone well before when you tried to bring it up. I just want to encourage you. Pray.

Speaker 1

Yes. Pray first.

Speaker 3

And I. You know, the dragon idea, Dragons, if they're going to destroy, you have to be attacked. You can't just like, oh, you got to go after it.

Speaker 2

You don't want to learn to live with this.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So it's like, I would encourage you tonight to say, okay, God, give me the courage. I got to bring this up. Bring it up tenderly and gently. But have the conversation about sex or whatever it is. I know it's been. I've said many times I can preach or be on a stage and talk about sex with thousands of people, but to go in a kitchen or bedroom and say, hey, can we talk about. That's. It's harder. Much harder. It's intimate, you know, and this isn't intimate. It looks intimate. Like, wow, he's being vulnerable talking to all these people. But I don't know you. We're not going to talk about it later. But this is our life. And that's. That's a scary thing. That takes courage. But I love your principle. You can say you can talk about anything. Do it. Hey, in the same one play, by the rules, you have the whole thing about kids.

Speaker 1

Oh, I think this is huge.

Speaker 3

We gotta. We gotta have a conversation about that, because kids, you know, they. I saw somebody on YouTube or some marriage couple talking, and they used this visual and they had a couple kids on stage with them, and they were standing. The husband and wife were standing, talking to the audience, and they separated and brought the kids and put them right in between them and stood in a line and they said, this should not be your marriage. And then they put the kids behind them. They put the husband and wife together and they said, this should be your marriage. Don't let them become behind you. They're important. But when they come in between you and your wife, like, they're more important than the husband or the wife. You're gonna have problems. They need to be following you. You need to be leading them. Is that true?

Speaker 2

Oh, that's so good and so true. Right?

Speaker 1

It's so hard for me, and especially I've seen And now grandkids in blended families, too. If kids have gone through a divorce, I think it's really easy for a mom or a dad. Like, I want to protect my kids.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

And make them feel secure of this new marriage.

Speaker 2

Totally.

Speaker 1

Really easy. Even for them. It feels right to protect my kids. And there is some truth to that. But to make your marriage a priority, it's not always easy.

Speaker 2

Yes. Like, we'll give lip service, like, oh, yeah, my marriage, it's important. It's a priority. Yes. But when it all comes down to it. Right. Who in your family do you treat the best? Oh, my goodness. I'd have to be like, oh, my youngest daughter Lucy, the one that's living at home with us. And so I'm having to retool and be like, I should be treating James the best because, you know, I'll think about it. When kids come into the picture when they're babies, the whole world revolves around them. And it should, because the baby needs you to be alive. But soon after, the baby doesn't need you to be alive and you need to get back to normal. But most of us, especially in our culture today, we do not get back to normal. We are still child centered. Everything's about the kid. The vacation's about the kid. Where we eat is about the kid, our rhythms, how we spend our time. It's all about the kids. And if we do that, well, no wonder the graying of divorce is happening. That kids leave and then mom and dad look at each other because they became mom and dad. They weren't even husband and wife anymore. It's like the roles flipped and instead of being husband, wife, mom, dad, they became just like mom and dad. And that was lost. So it's really important, like, to keep dating. So research says even if you just date once a month, you're doing better. Because 50% of couples go out like three or four times a year.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 1

Is that what the stats are?

Speaker 2

Yes. It's crazy. So if you will date once a month or more, you will see, and this is Brad Wilcox's research, he says that you will get a 15% boost in like, communication, not likely to divorce, sexual intimacy, overall happiness, all those things. Things. So it is this idea of like, hey, I can leave the kids with the babysitter, I can leave the kids with mom and dad, whatever. Whatever that trusted person is, and I will go out with my spouse. My husband and I have not done this perfectly for sure, but we did like that yearly getaway, you know, where just 24 hours. You know, I live in San Diego, so it's super easy. You just have to go downtown 24 hours. And that 24 hours just shifts everything. Cause you remember, like, oh my goodness, we are a couple.

Speaker 1

Oh, I like you so much.

Speaker 2

Like, it's kind of fun to just be us. Like, not to have to worry about where the kids are and what they're doing. And, you know, now, you know, we still do it. And my daughter Lucy, who is a sophomore in high school, was so cute because she was like, as excited as we were, it was weird. I didn't realize that she was like, mom, you guys are going on your little date tomorrow. I'm so excited for you guys. And I was like, this is funny. Like, she was almost more excited than me because I was thinking, like, I gotta pack my bag, gotta do these things, you know? And she was. And then I realized, like, our kids, it's so healthy for them when they see, like, mom and dad love each other, they enjoy being together. They're gonna have a little getaway. They're excited that you're gonna do this. So it was like, this is amazing. So really, the service you can do for your children by loving your spouse is huge. And I call it the tennis test. You know, I will sit in a car and wait an hour for my girls to come out of tennis practice. Right. When they were both in tennis in high school. I'll just sit in the car. They say, mom, you know, know, it's. It's running late. Fine, no problem. Send the call, read a book, no problem. But if my husband told me to pick me up at 5 o', clock, that's so good. And then texted me like, oh, it's running late. I'll be out in an hour. I'd be like an hour, like, get lift home. Do you know how much I have to do? And I'd be so mad.

Speaker 1

That is so true.

Speaker 2

And then it's just like, why would I do that so much for my girl so easily, but not for my husband. I mean, it is a thing for.

Speaker 3

Why is it like that?

Speaker 2

We love our kids so much, we're crazy about them.

Speaker 1

It's like a covenantal love with our kids. It is. It's just easy. You love them unconditionally.

Speaker 3

We are in a marriage covenant.

Speaker 1

That's what I'm saying. This one is just an easy. I love you unconditionally. This one, man. It should be just like that.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Like we're both adults, you know, you should take care of yourself.

Speaker 1

We have expectations, but I'll take care.

Speaker 2

Of these kids and do all these extra things for them.

Speaker 1

It's crazy. Well, I think this is a really good conversation to have with your spouse. And I love that you get into this of like, here's something you can ask your spouse. Like, in what ways are we a child centric home? Are there any changes we need to make? As a listener, I hope that you'll ask your husband this or ask your wife this. Are we a child centric home? And don't get defensive, because I know Dave's already gonna say, like, no, we're a grandchild centric home. I know that he'll say that.

Speaker 3

And my thought is, how do you not get defensive? Because you've gotten defensive.

Speaker 1

I'm like. And I have my like. Well, I'm with you all the time. I travel with you. We work together. We're with each other constantly, and we're not with them as much. So I need to pray. Like, if your husband comes to you or your wife, hey, I have something I really want to talk about. That may not be easy, but here's what I've been feeling lately. And even to say, like, and maybe I'm wrong.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Even to say that maybe I'm wrong, but I'm feeling like, am I as important? I think it's just a great question. And your spouse might get defensive, but don't get discouraged.

Speaker 3

I will get defensive. I've been there. I'll get defensive.

Speaker 1

Don't get discouraged because even if they react instead of respond, God is still working. When I walk away, I can hear the whisper of the holy Spirit convicting me. I can feel it. Can't you?

Speaker 2

Yes. Yes. And a lot of times it's the mom. A lot of times it's we moms that are like, oh, but junior. And this and this. And they have to be in 10 things. So. And it could be a small, simple solution of, hey, you guys have to pick the same activity. We cannot run her all around town. You know, we have three kids. They all played the piano. They all did martial arts.

Speaker 1

We did that too.

Speaker 2

And that was James. He was like, we cannot run all around creation. They have to just do one thing. It's like, okay, okay.

Speaker 1

That's really smart.

Speaker 3

Okay. We've only talked about one decision.

Speaker 2

A long way to go, don't we?

Speaker 3

We can keep going too, because there's even more things. But the second one is what? Give thanks.

Speaker 2

Give thanks.

Speaker 3

What's that look like?

Speaker 2

Every day.

Speaker 3

Every day.

Speaker 2

So instead of being like, oh, I'm going to look for all the deficiencies. Say, no, I'm going to thank God. And if you live in your marriage in a spirit of thanksgiving, you were thankful when you met him or her, right? You were just like, oh, my word, I cannot believe I found this person like a treasure. And you were so thankful.

Speaker 1

You see all the great things.

Speaker 2

So, so thankful. And so to keep that going. And it's the will of God. Like all of us, you know, we think many times, God, what do you want me to do in my life? Like, I want to follow your will. I want to follow your will. But it's right there in the Bible to rejoice and to give thanks and to pray. And so when we give thanks for our spouse, it changes everything. And you will, you'll find what you are looking for. So if you're looking for ways to be grateful, you'll find it.

Speaker 3

And you sort of have to look. You have to look because like you said at the beginning, you see it, it's right there, you love it. And then you see all the negative, you see all the weakness, you get hurt, they don't show up. They may break a vow or a promise and you are really hurt. And so you're like, okay, be thankful. How do you get back to that?

Speaker 2

Yeah. So you think, Job, though he slay me, yet I will praise him, right? So it is very like God, if there's nothing I can be thankful for in this moment for my spouse and where we are, I'm just going to be thankful that you are with me in the dark, that you're going to get us through this. You know, if couples will stick it out through the hard times, you know, stick out that three, four, five year period that's so hard. Research says that they're going to find happiness on the other side. They're not going to stay stuck forever. And I think Thanksgiving is really a key way to get out of that. Thanking God. God, I thank you for the way that you're working. And you know, you just say, I thank you. He got out of bed and he got himself to work. A lot of men don't do that. So I'm gonna thank you for that or I thank you, God. She made a dinner. It was hardly edible, but it'll nourish me and I'll get through the day, you know, whatever. Just you start thanking God for things, small things, and write them down if you're having trouble. You know, my husband, one week, he wrote down each day, like one thing for each day. And then he gave it to me and he showed me this list. You know, Monday you take Lucy to school, and you're cheerful when you do that. Tuesday, when I come home, you have dinner waiting for me. And he just had written down these little things that he had noticed. So like you're saying, Dave, it's the effort of noticing. And can you imagine if you actually wrote it down and then you actually showed it to your spouse, then your. And it's pretty easy. Like, that's not hard to do. You just take a little post it note. Monday, this, you smelled good. Tuesday, you know, it doesn't matter. It's like. And then you give it to them at the end of the week, say, I appreciate you. And that could start just turning the ship on this whole complaining neg. I mean, you all have a friend that is very negative and very complaining. And who wants to be with this negative, complaining person? Nobody.

Speaker 1

That's what I was gonna ask you. When you saw that list, were you motivated to be even more like that versus if you saw a list or if your husband or your wife just said, hey, here's what you did wrong today. That is the most demotivating, isn't it?

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 2

We want a good name to live up to. You know, it's Dale Carnegie, how to win friends and Influence people. Give someone a good name to look live up to. So you show them, hey, I'm thankful for these things. I really appreciate that about you. Guess what? I'm gonna do that and more next week.

Speaker 1

And I think too, like we get into this in our new book too, the neurological pathways that are now formed in the brain, if you're constantly seeing the negative, you're creating neurological pathways of going down this negative route so that all you see is the negative. But if you say something, and I'll say this too, it's an act of your will to be able to look for something. You're doing it intentionally. It's not. Because here's what I would have thought before, I should feel so good about him and then I can say something. No, you're looking for the greatness. You see the greatness. And whether you feel like it or not, you say it or write it or you text it. And then you start start looking like, I'm gonna start looking, what did he do right today? That changes a lot.

Speaker 3

And I tell you, for me, what I'm hearing is say it out loud, because I have many times thought it and never spoken it.

Speaker 2

And she doesn't Know that you've been thinking these really great things about her.

Speaker 3

I mean, I thought it this weekend, laying in that stupid tent, you know, caught with this, you know, a mattress.

Speaker 1

And there were these huge beetles in the tent.

Speaker 2

Oh, no, inside.

Speaker 1

Inside.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah. We don't know what we're doing. So we leave the flap open, and we're like, oh, no. Yeah, we need to zip that thing up. And it was raining, and it was soggy and wet. And, you know, Ann fell in the mud when she's going to the bathroom in the middle of the night in the middle of the wood. Anyway. And I remember thinking I had the most amazing wife that would even do this with me.

Speaker 2

Wait, what did you think that.

Speaker 3

That's why I'm saying it right now. It's like, did I say it? She didn't even know what I literally thought to him. Like, there are a lot of women that would say, I'm not doing this thing. You want to speak at a marriage retreat, you go ahead. I'm not doing.

Speaker 2

Doing it.

Speaker 3

And even the leader, the pastor said, hey, there's a house on the. On the ground. You guys can stay in there, but, you know, we'd really like you to be with the couples. She could have said, we're standing there. Because I did drive by that house, and I thought that'd be nice to have that toilet. Running water. That'd be nice.

Speaker 2

Instead of going to the bathroom outside.

Speaker 3

Thank you. I'm just thinking, thank you. You're an amazing teammate to do that. And it was. It was a great weekend, but, man, it was hard.

Speaker 1

It was so awesome.

Speaker 2

Gross.

Speaker 1

So gross.

Speaker 3

And I'm just thinking it was gross. It was gross. I didn't change my underwear the whole weekend. Like, I'm not getting out of my underwear and putting on those shorts. I just.

Speaker 1

This girl gives me this, like, a giant wipe. She goes, we can't shower out here. I'm like, this is so gross.

Speaker 3

Is that what that was?

Speaker 1

Yes. And so I'm basically taking wipes and cleaning myself. But thanks for saying thank you. Thanks.

Speaker 3

Well, think about that. What kind of idiot doesn't say out loud, thank you, honey? And I'm thinking, there's husbands listen or wives going, yeah, my husband never does say it.

Speaker 1

Tonight, you be the one.

Speaker 3

Write it down. I mean, Ann shared on stage, and it's in her book about our friend Michelle, who did what you said, Arlene. She started writing down because she was critical of Rob.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And words aren't quite as easy for everyone.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

So she Just started writing down over, you know, not just every day, but when she saw something and she was thankful for. She gave it to him on his birthday.

Speaker 1

She's been doing it for years.

Speaker 3

And it was like a journal. And she looks over and he's weeping because those words of gratefulness were so powerful. I think she does it every year. It's like he just weeps. Your husband, your wife will weep. I mean, maybe not weep, but I mean, it'll be that powerful. Because we often are ungrateful when we could be grateful.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

You know, I don't know. I'm looking at all these things under, you know, give thanks every day. And you have. You don't need stuff to be happy. Yeah, you do. What are you talking about? Comfort is overrated. I mean.

Speaker 1

Well, I want to hit. When you talk about, But I'm not happy. The person reading this is thinking, but I'm not happy. I'm giving thanks. You want me to give thanks every day. I'm not happy. And you kind of hit that of. You can choose that. Was there anything else that you've learned about that?

Speaker 2

I think when we're shooting for the happy, like, I want to be happy. This is not making me happy. It is the. It's like the rule. Everything you're going through, you're like, let me just gauge, did that make me happy? Right. You're not gonna be happy. You're just searching for it. And it really. That joy, happiness, gladness, it comes really from giving, from serving, from being thankful.

Speaker 3

That's decision number three.

Speaker 2

That's. Decision number three is to serve your spouse. You've been reading your book, Dave. You're doing so good. But it is like, when we're just chasing that happiness, I think it eludes us. And when we realize that, wait, this happiness will come when I do the right thing. Like, the feeling comes after the behavior.

Speaker 1

That is so contrary to the culture.

Speaker 2

Yeah. That it's like, hey, this is like we talked in the earlier broadcast about humility. And the Bible tells us to clothe ourself with humility. Right. We put it on. It's not natural. We walk around without it, you know? So in the same way, it's like, we have to put on this good stuff. That's not natural. And that joy comes. That joy comes. Cause when you are thankful for your spouse, then it's very hard to feel thankful and unhappy. Right. They don't coexist. So if you need, like, I wish I was more happy. I wish I was more happy, then it's like, you know what? It's that heart of contentment. And that's what Dave talked about. I don't need more stuff because you get the stuff. You get the house, you get the car, you get the new cool clothes, and it's fun for like a day, you know, maybe a few days if it's a house, something big. But then after a while, you're used to it, and it's like, well, that didn't do anything.

Speaker 1

Yes. I think what you're saying, too, it's a surrender. It's a re. Surrender every day of, Lord, I give my life to you. I'm yours. My joy, my happiness, my life comes from you.

Speaker 2

From you.

Speaker 1

Now help me to pour out what.

Speaker 2

You'Ve poured into me and not to expect your spouse to make you happy. Like, you're not making me happy, because, my goodness, if it was my responsibility to make changes. James, happy. It's like, wait, you're putting all your happiness on me?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Like, I have to act like that. It's like, I don't want to act. I don't want that responsibility. So why would we give that responsibility to someone else? So remember, it's God. It's God that's going to give you joy. And his presence is fullness of joy.

Speaker 1

And how. How many times have people said, like, we're getting divorced, we're just not happy anymore. Welcome to the club. Who is. I mean, it's a joke.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So how do you get out of a selfish perspective, which is, you need to serve me more.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

To a selfless perspective, which is, I want to lay down my life for her. I want to lay down my life for him. I want to do this. You say serve. How do I shift that mindset? Because it's a mindset to get there.

Speaker 2

It may take something bad to happen. Like something bad to wake you up, to be like, oh, my word, this is not all about me. Like, I need to serve. Like, I need to serve my family. Like, I need to do something. But hopefully you don't have to wait for that. A lot of times we have to wait for this bad thing. Just the shoe falls off and you have to do something. So that's when we change. But instead to realize, wait a minute, I am a selfish person. And we always think the other person is a selfish person. My husband is so selfish. But you know, my husband James, he had said the other day, I had said something, oh, well, you're so selfish. You want to do the things you want to do. And then he's like. Cause, like, we go on ski to. Because he and the kids love to ski. And I'm terrified of skiing. Like, I've done the thing so I can do the greens. And they're black diamond, right? So in my mind, I'll think, you're so selfish. Like, we always have to vacation where you want a vacation. And it took me a while, and that was service, to realize this is a blessing, that my kids and James can make these memories. That I can sit in a cabin and read a book like this in the snow. Like, this is beautiful and this is a blessing. But it was at first. You're so selfish. You want to do these things.

Speaker 1

And you could have thought, I want to be at the beach.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I want to do something different. And then he will say, you know, well, you're selfish too. And you think I'm not selfish. But then you realize, of course I am. I want a vacation where I want a vacation. Like, we're all selfish. Like we all want what we want. And to realize, oh, my goodness, I can serve you. And service for a Christian is a promotion, right? For the unbelieving world. It's like, you don't wanna be a servant, have people walk all over you. You're gonna lose your voice, you're gonna lose your identity. You're gonna lose who you are. Cause you're serving that other person. Jesus says, I've come right as a servant. Like, I mean, my goodness, if Jesus can do it. And then in the Old Testament, David, Moses, Joshua, they're called servants of God, my servant. It's like the higher closer you are to God, the more you're a servant. And where else can you learn to serve? What better place? It's easier to serve someone one hour, let's say. And please do that, you know, so that you can do that. Then you can go home. But when you serve at home, you serve your spouse. Man, that's 24 hours a day, seven days a week, nonstop.

Speaker 1

Nobody.

Speaker 2

That's the place to say okay. Instead of saying, what have you done for me lately, God? You asked, how does that God, It's a change of heart, God, change my heart, change my heart. That I would wake up and say, how can I serve you today? And you know what? You might not feel it, but just ask the question. Hey, is there anything I can do for you today? And just by asking the question, you're starting to act in a way that is pleasing to God. And the feelings will follow.

Speaker 3

I mean, it's Such a paradox, because it feels like our whole life. And we're even told this. Pursue the title.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

You know, that's your goal. Get the title, get the corner office, get the house, get the stuff. That's the American dream. Go for it. And Jesus said, pursue putting a towel over your arm and washing people's feet. And Jesus had the title, the greatest title ever known to man. The king of the universe. And he washed these dirty disciples. Yeah. And that's what he calls us to in marriage. That's not easy. That is a selfless act.

Speaker 2

And when you said that, you know, I think of the person listening who is in leadership, in their job, and that's good and that's blessed. But when you come home, home is the opportunity to put the towel and to wash the feet. That's where you can show that.

Speaker 1

And I'm telling you, when a spouse serves you, that's humbling in a way. Like, it makes you want to serve back.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

It changes your heart. It's such a lowly position.

Speaker 2

We are wired for reciprocity.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 2

If your neighbor comes and brings you a little cake, then you're like, oh, next time I got to bring the neighbor a cake now, because I owe that neighbor a cake. Like, we are kind of of built that way. So in marriage, if you're married to a good and decent person, they're going to reciprocate over time. That service.

Speaker 1

I have to go back because I feel like we missed this little part. I have to go to it. It's what you call cute girl and happy boy. Go back to that because you start out talking about just like your wedding registry and how your expectations were different from one another in marriage and women are different.

Speaker 2

And then your personalities will be different. Everything's different. And when you're engaged, you're like, this is awes, awesome. It's so much fun. And then when you're married for a while, you're like, this person is driving me crazy.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

So we were in two different cities, engaged because of our jobs. And so I told James, hey, we don't want to spend. We were spending one weekend a month, like, visiting one another. And we didn't want to spend all that precious time just in a store doing registry. So I told him, why don't you go to this, like, superstore kind of place and just scan whatever you want for our house? He's like, okay, okay. So I go back and I go to the superstore and I put in my name. I'm so Excited, right? I have a name in a wedding registry. I'm typing in my name. This is amazing. And the little sheets get printed out and I'm reading and I'm.

Speaker 1

Have you already filled out your part?

Speaker 2

I've done my. But I went to the nice department store and I sent him to, like this superstore kind of place. So I had done like the high end stuff, right? And then I said, oh, yeah, you get our stuff. So I'm looking and it's like a tent and a lantern and, like. And I'm like, why in the world would we need this? Like, what in the world? And then I keep reading and I'm like, pharmaceuticals. And it says Tylenol, Advil, Tums, KY Jelly. I'm like, wait, what? And then there was bug spray, ant spray, wasp spray, mouse traps. I was like, there must be a mistake. So I'm reading and honestly, maybe we were the only registry with those titles. Pesticides. And we have, like, things listed. So I am, like, freaking out.

Speaker 1

Were you embarrassed? Like, I was so. Could people see that already?

Speaker 2

Public eyes. I was so embarrassed. Like, I think he had just scanned it the day before, right? So I don't think so. I'm like, we didn't have cell phones back then, so I couldn't just call them right then. So I went home, I dialed up the phone and I said, that's so funny. You are doing a practical joke for your groomsmen. Cause that's the only.

Speaker 1

You didn't say that.

Speaker 2

Yes, because that's the only explanation I could think of. So I'm like, that's really funny. You put all those items so they would laugh. That is awesome. That's hilarious. Total quiet. And he's like, what? It's not a joke. And I was like, how could this not be a joke? And he said, you told me I could put things that I want for my house. He's like, I don't want a dish. I don't want, like, candles. I want a camping stove that I really will use in my house. House. Those things are expensive and I want them in my house. And I could not believe, Anne, that I was the one having to defend that there was, like, bug spray on my wedding registry. I just could not barely even believe it. Anti diarrheal. So I would say if I. I was like, word picture. Word picture. Because I heard in counseling men like word pictures.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2

So I said, imagine there you're going to the queen, and she unwraps your beautifully wrapped present. And there's Windex inside. I said, sweetheart, people do not give these kinds of presents at weddings. They just don't do it. They'll give us cash, babe, and then we can buy these kinds of items. Okay? So we negotiated, and all of the weird stuff, the pharmaceuticals, et cetera, and pesticides came off. We kept all the tent stuff. Cause at that point, the tent stuff looked really good to me.

Speaker 1

Good idea.

Speaker 2

I think that's awesome. That is great. And that was my first taste that, like, wow, we're really different on our wedding invitations. You know how people write really pretty calligraphy.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

So he wanted for his friend Bob. He called him Bob. So he wanted to write on the envelope, B, O, O, O, O, O, O, O, O, B, which basically says boob. And he said, I want that. And I'm like, like, we cannot send out a wedding card with calligraphy that says boob. We just can't. And I think he let me do that. Like, let me change that. But I gave him his sister. He calls her Gizzard Gank. I have no idea why. And so her invitation said Gizzard Gank. So that was our exchange. But you know what? It's decision number four. Take fun seriously. Like, turn all the things that are silly into really fun things. You know, you might as well. You might as well.

Speaker 1

This is huge. Like, I think this is really important because we don't do that after we've been married a while. Life is hard. Jobs are hard, kids are hard. People can think. There's not much to laugh about. You have to intentionally have fun because it doesn't come naturally all the time when you're in the middle of high pressure, hard things. We're having aging parents or we're having babies. There's things that are just really hard. How have you and James. I'm telling you, you need to bring James back the next time.

Speaker 2

I wish.

Speaker 3

I wanna meet this guy.

Speaker 2

Yes. You could grill him. Please do. Oh, my.

Speaker 1

No. Dave would totally love him.

Speaker 3

Oh, he's my guy.

Speaker 2

He's your guy.

Speaker 3

But, I mean, even as you share the story, you could have responded. Like, I'm not sure this is before your marriage. Married. I'm learning things about him that I don't like. He's so different. And you're laughing about it. You know what I mean? And some couples.

Speaker 2

Maybe that's why James picked me. It's like, she thinks it's funny.

Speaker 1

But you know what, Dave? I think, because we just did that conference, I had a lot of women say to me, a Lot of wives say. My husband doesn't ever tell me the truth. He avoids talking about things that could hurt me because he knows I'll get up. We did a broadcast of last month, I think, and Dave said, you know, I was looking across the table at you as we're recording, and I'm realizing your hair is, like, totally messed up. And I'm like, you didn't say anything? He goes, should I have? Like, yes.

Speaker 3

I don't care about my hair, so why would you care about yours?

Speaker 1

But I think Dave is one that would tend to not say it, and I think there's a lot of men that could tend to lean that way.

Speaker 2

Yes. Because my husband is a sayer. It's very easy. It's hard to. For him not to say things.

Speaker 1

Right. I'm like that.

Speaker 2

So if you're a husband or a wife and it's very hard for you to say things, then the act of service is saying, right.

Speaker 3

I mean, if Anna and I got married and she had hair above her lip, I probably wouldn't have said anything for two years.

Speaker 1

You wouldn't have said anything.

Speaker 3

And the whole time, I'd be, like, looking at it. I mean, I told her one time in here, like, a couple years ago, I go, hey, one of your teeth is a little crooked.

Speaker 1

Your tooth. I said, you think?

Speaker 3

I said, every time we're in the studio, I look over and it's all I can see. And she's like, what?

Speaker 1

You said, you're saying I have a snaggle tooth.

Speaker 3

You sort of want to know, don't you? She's like, yeah. So she has Invisalign now.

Speaker 2

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 1

I want to know those things that are true. And I feel like it's a gift. I will say this, too. After reading your book, I'm like, oh, because I have blonde hair. But still, here's my question. I said to one of my daughters, when I get old and I can't pluck any of those little white hairs, will you do it for me? And now I'm gonna do electrolysis.

Speaker 2

Arlene, you've helped me.

Speaker 1

Like, I'm just gonna go do that.

Speaker 2

I just had to do it once. I've never done it since.

Speaker 1

See, that's what I'm saying.

Speaker 2

Yeah. 30 years. I mean, it will last.

Speaker 3

Boom. Okay, so how do you choose fun?

Speaker 2

You have to so take fun seriously. So honestly, be like, hey, we actually have to do this. Cause we'll think this is something we'll do later when we have money, when we have Time when the kids are grown. And we all know we never have more time. We really never have more money. And then the kids turn into grandkids. So it's like, these things will not happen. They're an illusion. So a great question to ask is, like, when was the last time we had fun together? Right? That's a great question. And if it's really like, wow, we have no answer. Like, last Christmas, you know, so then, you know, okay, we gotta do this. So there is a list of activities in making marriage easier. And I suggest you look through this list. Circle the ones that you could like. So your favorites, of course. But just things you could do. And then try to find things in common that you can do together. So, believe it or not, we have picked up ballroom dancing, which was my husband's idea. Cause he always thought it would be neat to be able to do.

Speaker 3

Everybody talks about this because we have.

Speaker 1

It on the love, like, you mean it? Cruise. And people take lessons.

Speaker 2

They love it. So fun.

Speaker 3

People love it on the cruise.

Speaker 2

Cruise. It's crazy. So we started about, you got to do this. I think you should do it. We started two and a half years ago. We. And in our city, there is, like, it's a big rec center kind of place. And they do lessons for $8. And so we took lessons. And then when you were there, like, when we got there, there were all these, you know, 60 and up, you know, people. And they're all super good dancers. Really? Yes. So we get out there and we look obviously like a big neon sign, like, help us, help us, help us. So it's been so cute because these people have been trying to teach us and help us. And literally we just went last Friday. And now we're at the point where it's actually. I literally said to James, my goodness, it's actually fun now because at first you feel stupid. You don't know what you're doing.

Speaker 1

You're embarrassed. I would be embarrassed and humiliated.

Speaker 2

You're embarrassed. You're all these things. But if you stick with it, then it's like, oh, my word, this is so fun. Like, we're waltzing. Like, it's like a dream. Like you're waltzing around this room to music with your spouse. Like, it's really fun. So we figure dancing, because as we get older, you can still do it. So it's a way to move your body. It's good for your mind. Because you have to remember, especially for the man. Cause the man has to lead. So he has to think of all the steps. And then it's social. It puts you with people. So we're realizing, like, that's a good activity going into. You know, we're in our 50s, so that's a good activity to go into in the decades ahead. It's like pickleball, but. And it's just like pickleball, but it is humility. You're right, because you feel stupid for a long time. So sometimes when you do that fun activity, it's fun for one person. Like skiing. Fun for my husband. For me, so not fun. So embarrassing. Like, I fall on the ground, and I'm like, help me up. And he's like, you have to learn how to get up yourself. It was miserable. Miserable, Right? So sometimes you'll try something and it won't work. And sometimes you try something and it does work.

Speaker 1

That you guys started something and neither one of you were that great at it.

Speaker 2

Exactly.

Speaker 1

Like I'm looking at.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that was good.

Speaker 1

Kickboxing, kayaking. There's so many things you have an entire page of just ideas, alphabetical order. Yes, honey, we should go through these and pick some new ones. Roller skating and rollerblading, rowing. This would be fun because, like, Dave plays golf, but for me to play golf with him, I feel like I'm so bad. I'm just gonna frustrate you. And so I think it's kind of fun to pick something that.

Speaker 3

And it doesn't frustrate me. It's fun. And she got pretty good. Pretty fun fast.

Speaker 1

And I'm frustrated.

Speaker 3

She's frustrated. She wants to be interesting.

Speaker 2

So then if you know he's not frustrated, then you'd be like, okay, then I can be, like, not as great. And it's fine. He likes it.

Speaker 3

Now she's my pickleball partner. She better be pretty good. And she is. She's really good. In fact. Listeners, you want to take us on? Let's have a family life pickleball marriage treat.

Speaker 2

Wouldn't that. That would be amazing.

Speaker 3

Work on our marriages at night, Play pickleball during the day. I just came up with.

Speaker 2

That would actually work.

Speaker 3

I know.

Speaker 2

And if you did, like, a tournament and, like, people would win. People would go crazy for that. I feel like.

Speaker 3

I think we would forget the love like you mean it cruise. Let's do the pickleball cruise. No, you need to come on the love like you mean it. Cruz, go to family life.com and sign up. But hey, let me ask you one last question. Do you and James pray together?

Speaker 2

We do pray together.

Speaker 3

I know you eat together.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

What does prayer look like?

Speaker 2

Thank you for asking that. We do pray together at night before we go to bed. Bed. But I will say it's. It's not like this huge time, so. So maybe this comforts you that we're praying and it's like a few lines before bed.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And that's true.

Speaker 1

That honestly, is it super simple?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah. One of the reasons I ask you that is we, I think sometimes as couples, we make it complicated, you know, to pray together and it's just simple.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

So we're going to offer our. I was going to say listeners, but we have people watching.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

A way to pray with your spouse. We're going to put five prayers for you on a website that you can go to and that way you have a sample prayer. You don't have to do that, but you could. And it's just. Familylife.com marriageprayers familylife.com marriageprayers and it might be a way to sort of jump start praying with your spouse because it's something we do as well. And sometimes Ann just prays. Sometimes I just pray. Sometimes we pray together. Sometimes it's epic on our knees. Sometimes we're half asleep and we're falling asleep. But that bonding daily is literally life changing. I think.

Speaker 1

I think one of the things that I've loved too, about your book, Arlene, is just at the end of every. I like that the chapters are short.

Speaker 2

We want to make it easy.

Speaker 1

People are going to love that. But you have a prayer and the.

Speaker 3

Title of each chapter is funny brings you Rent a truck. What? Rent a truck. Yeah.

Speaker 1

You have life lessons learned. And then you have like, one would say, if you like it, I'll try it. Make it easier. Seek to serve your spouse, not the other way around. So little practical things and then questions to ask your spouse. What can I do this week to make your life easier? And so I really. And then you have the prayer. I really like the practicality of it. It's something that people could go through as a couple that would be super. Like you could do that as a devotional, one chapter a night, each even. And then ask a question and say the prayer. It'd be a great little kind of pick me up.

Speaker 2

It's a good way to break the ice. It is. Because it's kind of like, oh, look, if they're talking about it, we can talk about it too. It makes it not strange to talk about these things.

Speaker 1

I think this is so good.

Speaker 3

Next time you come back and because we're not in Little Rock anymore. It won't be any snow. You gotta bring James.

Speaker 2

Yes, I would love it.

Speaker 3

Maybe you can camp out there, you know, Exactly.

Speaker 2

In the dirt.

Speaker 3

So again, the name of Arlene's book is Making Marriage Easier. You can get it in our show notes. There'll be a link there for you to go buy it. And I'm telling you, buy it and buy several because this will help you and others.

Speaker 1

Yeah, thanks, Arlene. This is so good.

Speaker 2

It was so much fun to be here.

Speaker 1

Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button and we'd.

Speaker 3

Like you to subscribe. Subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this.

Speaker 1

Word like and subscribe.

Speaker 2

Look at that.

Speaker 3

You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.