FamilyLife Today®

Rechab Gray: It is really critical, especially for church dudes who—you go to church and you get points for whether it’s serving in a particular ministry or knowing something scripturally. You get points and kudos from other dudes for knowing stuff.

But God’s like, "I’m not listening to you if you’re not listening to her." So as fellas then, it’s like, "Man, can we start to get points for loving your wife? To create a culture that gives kudos for the dude who loves the best, not who knows the most."

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I’m Dave Wilson. You can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

We’ve got Rechab and Ike back with us. They laid some real wisdom on us yesterday. We’re going to get some more out of them today, and we’re going to hope our wives never hear this. No, we want our wives to hear this. They’re going to be encouraged by what we say. We’re talking about headship, submission, loving our wives as Christ loved the church and how easy that is to do it. How that may be the hardest thing, but the biggest thing and most important thing God’s called us to do.

Rechab Gray: Can I get mad practical real quick? So this is real practical. We can be chilling at night, both of us are kind of bored with the TV. Happiness looks like, "Well, let’s try a different movie."

Holiness looks like, "Man, maybe the Lord is making us kind of disappointed with what we’re watching right now to lead us in a different direction. Like, maybe let’s spend some time in prayer, or let’s just talk about the scriptures for a little bit, or let’s talk about the last book you just read."

It’ll be a mad encouraging conversation. The easier thing and the happier thing would just be to keep trying Netflix. The holy thing is to have this deeper conversation or prayer or scripture. Every time we’ve decided the holier thing, we both end up happier. And it usually leads to some good old intimacy—a happy time.

Dave Wilson: One of the reasons we’re talking about this is when you guys were in here months ago, there was a look on your wives' faces of joy and contentment when they talked about this word submission, which you don’t often see with women, even Christian women in the church. It’s like it’s the S-word.

As you think about what that means for us as men as well, but especially for women—because when I speak at churches to men, it’s funny when you say, "Do you know what the Bible commands women to do in scripture?" They know one verse in the Bible: Ephesians 5:22. They do not know that 23, 24—there is a lot more written to these men, these husbands. There’s one to her and that’s the only one they know, and they think they also know what it means. She’s supposed to—so I want to ask you guys: what do you think "wives submit to your husband" looks like? What’s it mean? And why are your wives thriving when they hear that word rather than what often is the response?

Rechab Gray: It’s so fundamental to me. It’s fundamental to just being a human being. We are created in the image of God. We are prophet, priest, king. And God made a woman to be a helper.

To me, it’s like that simple. Her job is to help this man be the priest he is supposed to be. He cannot be what he is supposed to be without her. Therefore, he must love her and cherish her. But she must submit to him. We take the temple—everyone submits to the high priest. It’s his job to go into the Holy of Holies. We hear from him. We follow him. Everyone is submitting to him. Well, in the home, I’m the priest. And so her job is to submit to the priest.

We all submit to our pastors. We all submit to our leaders, our bosses. We submit to the government. We submit to leadership. That’s just the natural order. I think my wife intuitively gets that, but she also had a wonderful example at her home with her father and her mother. My wife and I, when we talk about it, we really do try to simplify it. It’s not as big a deal or as scary a thing that people make it out to be.

Now, part of that is kind of easy for you to say. But when she talks about it, she points out the First Peter passage, chapter three. But it says "without fear" is the part that a lot of people miss. She kind of hones in on that. I’m sure she probably talked about that. She tries to—meaning submit without fear. I forgot the exact way it was said, but I know she goes in on that passage because that was like a lightbulb for her.

I don’t think it has to be this really scary thing. Given we are in a broken world, given I’m a broken man and I’m going to make mistakes, then there’s going to be a level of fear that she has to work through in submitting to me. But she’s willing to work through that. She would relate it to the joy set before—like Christ going and enduring the cross. He entrusted himself. He submitted himself to the Father for the joy set before. And so my wife is entrusting herself to me by submitting to Christ and submitting to me. It really doesn’t have to be all of that like a bad word. We all submit in one way or another.

Ike Todd: I think it’s hard when men don’t submit but require submission. Because I think me and you could assume like, "Yeah, dudes got to do the same thing." But we live in such a "your rights" culture that dudes aren't actually used to submitting to authority.

If they’re tired of submitting to this authority—like my dad retired military. So that means he did 20 years of military and he did not enjoy all of that time. Some people enjoy all that time. He did not have all the greatest experiences, but my father continued to submit to leadership that was tough for him a lot of the time. But he did so for 20 years.

Now, you get tired of an authority, you move on to a different authority. You get tired of that authority, you move on. So we’re actually not in a culture that’s normalizing submission for men. But then we’ll go to the Bible and be like, "I got you, though," to our wives. Like, "Yo, you got to keep this up even though I’m not doing it anywhere else."

I think submission has become a dirtier word because we’ve basically made it an exclusive word. It’s only for wives. It’s only for women when it’s never been supposed to be that way. Obviously, Christ submitted himself. We are supposed to be models of Christ. So yes, the church submits to Christ, but Christ submitted to his Father. We got our wives submitting to us, but who are we submitting to?

I mean that obviously theologically from the divine perspective, but also other dudes. If you don’t know what it’s like to hear a physical, broken human being tell you no as a grown man and you just do it just because that authority told you no, to demand that from your wife—to me that’s whack. I don’t know another—I could try to clean it up, but that’s just whack to me. I think that’s mad hypocritical and it keeps you from a perspective that you don’t even know what that’s like. You’re demanding something out of her that you have no empathy for her. You’re refusing to have empathy.

Dave Wilson: It’s like saying if you’re going to ask and hope that your wife submits to you, you want to talk about leadership? You should as a husband lead in submission to authorities above you and the ultimate authority, Jesus. You submit first.

Rechab Gray: Without a doubt. My wife says two things to me all the time about why she is willing to follow me with joy. Number one, she says, "I see you on your knees before the Lord, so I can trust the decisions that you’re making." Which is why all she's got to say to me is, "Oh, I’m glad you prayed about that." And I'm like, "I actually didn't. I thought it was a good idea."

Then I think the second thing is always she saw me be led by specifically two men in my life where anything they put on the table, unless I knew it was straight-up unbiblical, even if I didn’t understand it, it was a yes. My yes was on the table. And it’s not because they didn’t make mistakes in that and all of that. It’s simply because I’m submitting as unto the Lord. So even if they got it right in this new thing that we’re supposed to do, I didn’t get it wrong in submitting to them because my submission is first unto the Lord.

Giving her that, she’s like, "Oh, yeah, and I’ve seen you model what this looks like, even when you didn’t agree with decisions. You still put your yes on the table." If you don’t know what it’s like as a man to hear another man tell you, "We’re going to do this," and you joyfully with a good attitude—not just in action but also in attitude—say yes, then to require that from your wife, you’re refusing to be empathetic to her.

Dave Wilson: You talked about First Peter 3. There’s a part in there about husbands: "Live with your wife in an understanding way." Let’s talk. What’s that mean? "Showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you in the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered." Exegete that. How does that flesh itself out in your home?

Rechab Gray: I will say this. I’ve got something naturally inquisitive and I seek understanding. So from day one, I really do seek to understand my wife. But that passage sure does help because I’m afraid of my prayers being hindered. I really do—I’m very interested in my wife. I want to know her. I want to understand her. I want to know what she’s thinking, why she’s thinking it, where does that come from?

Dave Wilson: By the way, that’s cherishing your wife. She loves that you want that. That you dig for that. Every woman’s like, "You want to know me? You want to probe and get my heart and my feelings?" That is cherishing and nourishing your woman right there. "Live with her in an understanding way," because how do you understand if you don’t ask and understand her?

Rechab Gray: Exactly. And I think she would say that. That’s why she feels like she’s flourishing. That’s why she can trust me. Her word is like, "I trust your time with the Lord." She always says that.

But yeah, I really do try to understand her. It’s when I’m not understanding, it’s probably more of a lack of empathy. I’m not empathizing because sometimes I get stuck in trying to understand intellectually. And that’s not always the proper way to go about understanding. Jesus can empathize with us because he was incarnate. He became man. He didn’t experience every particular sin that we do or whatever, or sufferings, but he understands because he can empathize.

How do we do that as a man? We can’t incarnate ourselves into a woman. But you can listen. You’ve got to listen. And listen to their experiences. Women are so much better at articulating their feelings. It’s harder for me to get to that point of empathy, but I am trying. I’m sitting there, I listen to my wife talk about her experience. She’ll communicate things and I think the best way of communication is through story.

She’ll communicate things through story, but you’ve got to listen closely. And that’s how you incarnate—you get into the story. You can’t become her, but you can get into the story. If you read in a book, the only way you can understand what’s going on is you get into that thing. Now you can look around the scenery and see all of the details. That’s why good writers put so many details. So you’ve got to get into the story. You’ve got to be able to really sit there and listen to your wife. She’s telling you, but you’re not listening.

I think it’s sometimes poetry, too. I think the tears of our wives speak their own language. And I think it’s sometimes difficult because we’re unwilling to wait for the translator, which is the Spirit of God. I don’t think we sit prayerfully in even the tears because sometimes they don’t even have much to say. It’s just brokenness, sadness, grief. And they’re able to empathize in some ways that we’re not and feel things that we’re not.

But I think sometimes living with them in an understanding way is just listening to their words, but also listening to their tears and waiting for the translator. Where is this coming from? Why? What’s the depth of this? Is this a tear that’s been produced in a day, or is this a tear that’s been produced in a decade? And being able to ask like the Lord those hard questions and her those hard questions and being willing to wait for the answer and really decipher the answer.

Ike Todd: I think the "understanding way"—I think that’s a private sort of honor. But then it says "showing honor to them as the weaker vessel." I think that’s more of a public honor. You put those two things together and whether they're inside the home or outside of the home, they feel prized.

In that, he says, "so that your prayers may not be hindered." And I think it’s really critical, especially for church dudes who—you go to church and you get points for whether it’s serving in a particular ministry or knowing something scripturally. You get points and kudos from other dudes for knowing stuff.

But God’s like, "I’m not listening to you if you’re not listening to her." So as fellas then, it’s like, "Man, can we start to get points for loving your wife? To create a culture that gives kudos for the dude who loves the best, not who knows the most." And when you create a culture like that, I do think it starts to change the emphasis of what we think real Christian maturity is, especially amongst husbands. But I think that’s really tough to change and just has to start with somebody. I will say this about Rechab and myself. I do feel like among the two of us, we will go at each other for that.

Rechab Gray: For not loving our wives or saying something that don’t feel like it’s loving towards our wives—that, we will check each other on. Like that part right there, there’s no shyness or anything like that. Like, "That’s not cool. Why that?" I hear his voice right now: "I think if Britney were to be able to share, I think she would say this." Because he’s paying attention to her even at times where I’m not. And vice versa: "I actually think Ari would say this."

It’s another set of eyes. And we’re having that conversation privately to be able to check each other privately like, "Yo, go back and ask. And make sure you’re actually listening to your wife because I’m thinking you’re missing her right now." I would say that’s normal for us. But that goes back to being willing to submit to one another.

Dave Wilson: How important is loving, leading, submitting, honoring, respecting in a marriage? How important is community around that? Because you guys have it. I know a lot of husbands and wives don’t. They’re in churches, but they’re not in community. They go back to their lives and they live sort of separate lives. They don’t have a brother or a sister holding them accountable, honoring Jesus. Do you think it’s really critical?

Rechab Gray: It’s dangerous, man, because you’re showing that you trust yourself that much to get it right. And quite frankly, I don’t. I know that I don’t know my heart well enough. And so I need Ike to see with a different perspective. And we might argue, we might fight it out, but I heard a different perspective.

So whatever I came in with, it’s not the same. Even if I feel like I won the argument or whatever, it ain’t the same from what I came in. I got a different perspective from someone who loves me and wants the best for my wife. We just don’t think it’s cool at all to be anything but loving to your wife. Like, I don’t want to hang out with you. You’re not loving your wife. You’re not my friend. I don’t care what you bring to the table. I see the way your wife looks at you. She’s not happy with you. So we’re not friends. I’m not good with you.

Dave Wilson: Now, have you had those conversations right there with people?

Ike Todd: With us, no, because we do love our wives. But we’ve had it with other people, for sure. There’s guys who would, I guess I could put it like this, maybe want a deeper intimacy with us and it’s like—the resounding thing from both of us is I don’t necessarily have a problem with you, but for us to have a depth of relationship, I need to feel that your wife finds joy in your leadership.

There is something that powerful. And yes, we have had to have those conversations. And some dudes can handle that and for other dudes, it’s tough. Because if you’ve not had that muscle flexed of submission like a lot of us dudes, we never have to say that because we’re never actually challenged on our perspective at all.

It’s so dangerous for the wife because everything they now get is from that one perspective. And when that’s not challenged and checked and blind spots exposed and all of that, man, all I can do is I say I feel for those women who have husbands who are not in deep community. And you know we’ve talked about this before—deep community that can challenge and check, not the kind of community that just, "Man, you’re doing great, man."

Dave Wilson: Do you think husbands and wives who are struggling run away from that kind of community? They’re afraid of it. They don’t want somebody to get in there and see how bad their relationship is.

Rechab Gray: Darkness hates the light. So that’s why they run from it, because they don’t want things to come to the light. I think that that’s normally led by dudes. That lack of community, not wanting exposure, I think that’s normally led by dudes because usually women will accept it in a heartbeat. They desire it. They want it. "Come look in on our marriage. Tell him something."

But because they so want to submit to their husbands, because they’re usually godly women, they sit quietly hoping that a dude from the outside will come and grab hold of their husband and begin to lead him and disciple him. So they just sit quietly hoping for it, and sadly sometimes it doesn’t come. But most of the time I’ve seen, ladies are longing for that: "Please come invade our relationship because we know we need it."

And it’s the dude who’s like, "I got this." And it’s super, super dangerous. It’s really stubborn. It’s a hard heart. And I think we all got to deal with that. I don’t enjoy when my wife says, "Let’s talk to Rechab and Britney about this." No, I’m the man. I don’t want to talk to them. But that’s Rechab and Britney, so we’re going to talk to them.

I remember our first big fight in our very first year of marriage, and she was suggesting that we talk to you. And I didn’t want that at all, not even close. But we did. You called me out and that changed everything for me. So now I’ve become more willing because I know that it’s necessary.

Like you said, when you got to look another man in the face and they tell you no or they say, "This is the way you’re going," or whatever, it humbles you. But it’s a meekness. It actually strengthens you. Because now you know you have a brother. Now you know you got some more stability, you got direction, you got a different perspective. It just makes everything better and your wife feels much more loved.

Ike Todd: And she feels safe.

Ann Wilson: Obviously, you hear us talk about marriages and how that foundation affects everything else in our lives.

Dave Wilson: And one thing we think we’d all agree on is that great marriages don’t just happen. They’re built with intentionality. And whether we see it or not, we’re either drifting in marriage apart or intentionally moving together toward each other and toward God.

Ann Wilson: So here’s the great news for your relationship: FamilyLife’s Weekend to Remember marriage getaway has events all over the country this spring. And even better, right now through Monday, January 26, registrations are 50% off.

Dave Wilson: You hear that? 50% off. So jump on this chance to intentionally pull closer to each other and to God and get two registrations for the price of one now through January 26 at familylifetoday.com.

Ann Wilson: That’s familylifetoday.com. What another great day talking about loving our wives, submission, headship, all that stuff. And by the way, you may be listening to this as a podcast or on radio—this is on YouTube. Go to YouTube, search for FamilyLife Today, and you can watch the whole conversation in one sitting while you work out or while you eat. Hopefully not while you sleep.

FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported ministry of FamilyLife, a Cru ministry. Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.