FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

We should be careful using that word "need." I think "need" puts people on the fence or should. You know, I've learned to use the open question a lot, like "Are you open to this?" And then the follow-up after that is, "Well, here are some suggestions."

But before, it was "Here are the suggestions. Here's what you need to do." I said "should" a lot—I should and need to. Asking questions has been a healthier approach for our marriage.

I pray that that approach helps other marriages as well because it allows room for conviction, conversation, and then just an opportunity to love on each other. If at the end of that conversation it doesn't end, all we can continue to do is pray for each other.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationship. Relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.

Well, yesterday we started a conversation with Jennifer and Alan Parr that we're going to continue today about softness, about a wife being soft, which doesn't mean she doesn't have a voice, but it does mean that she approaches him in...

Speaker 2

A way that's soft. It's not accusatory, it's not being defensive or angry. But she's prayed about some things and so she's coming to him as a woman who compliments her man.

But don't you might get a little reactive to that, like, oh, is this a whole woman subservient? No, it's not that.

And it's really interesting. So I think you're going to like this conversation.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And we ask them, well, if you're soft and you're married to a husband who's not leading spiritually, it's like, what do you do?

Speaker 2

I think that that can be frustrating for a woman, especially as a wife is wanting her husband or desiring him to lead spiritually or do a number of things.

How do we approach it in a soft way if we've tried that and it doesn't work?

So here's the rest of our conversation with Jennifer and Alan Parr.

Speaker 4

I think to your question about, you know, how does the woman handle it when she wants her man to do these types of things? I think there's a different approach when the woman has the desire for her man to do all these things, but he does not have the desire or expectations. This contrasts with a situation where the woman has the desire to do all these things and the man does too; he just doesn't know how.

For instance, if she says, "I really want you to be the spiritual leader of our home," and he's like, "I want that too. I just don't know how," then it's a different approach. In this case, she might need to say, "Okay, well, let me maybe suggest some things. Are you willing to read this book? Are you willing to meet with Brother John from church, who's doing this, who maybe can mentor you or help you? Or maybe we can have some discussions, or whatever." This way, it's about how she can guide him to become what he wants to be and what she wants him to be, which is the spiritual leader of their home.

On the other hand, if you have a guy that has no interest in that, then those situations might be where the woman has to step up and do some things. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. She may have to lead the Bible studies in the home with the kids or lead family devotion because he has no interest in it. The kids and the family can't suffer because the man is passive spiritually. So, it's a different approach.

Speaker 2

And I think too, Ellen, the way we say that as wives, like, maybe you could talk to Pastor John or whatever, sometimes they would be like, yeah, now you're telling me what to do.

Speaker 4

Yeah. And a lot of men are against that for some reason. That's a problem, though.

Speaker 3

Why do we tell our women?

Speaker 2

But the way we say it as women, when I look at if a man's passive and this is what my passion is, I think so many men and women are insecure.

But as you said, Alan, sometimes I have expectations of Dave. He didn't even have a dad around to show what it was like to not only be a father, but he never saw a spiritual father, same as him.

Speaker 1

Has no idea how to do it.

Speaker 2

And so for me, what I did do is like, I would compare him. Like, hey, Steve Andrews is reading the Bible every night to his kids.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I used to do that.

Speaker 1

I used to do that. You compare.

Speaker 2

I'm trying to motivate him.

Speaker 1

That made it worse.

Speaker 4

Are you thinking that it's gonna, like, give me example, but go marry. Go marry him then. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2

Maybe you should have married him.

Speaker 4

Right? Yeah. That doesn't work. And so that's like us comparing you to our mothers.

Yeah. My mom used to cook every day, and she used to cook these great meals. And how come you only cook once a week? How would that make you feel? You know?

Yeah, my mom stayed home and she got all the laundry done. There was never piles of laundry in the house. My mom did all of that.

How about you, honey?

Speaker 1

We did that in our. In our marriage. Because I would be like, well, I never, never took the trash out growing up. My dad did that. Like, I mean, why am I taking the trash out?

Speaker 4

Everybody who hears this knows that. I do.

Speaker 1

In the beginning of our marriage, like.

Speaker 4

You know, it was more so like, stuff.

Speaker 1

Like, yeah, totally. I think we both do that. And we found that, like you said, it leads to that, well, go be with that person. Not that we mean it, but it just.

Speaker 3

How do you.

Speaker 2

Wait, let me finish that. Because I think when we as women can speak life to our husbands and say the things that we think that they would be good at.

Like, and I really think this. If we can capture the things our husbands are doing well or great, notice them and say those instead of the negative, that's motivating.

Speaker 1

And that's what I was gonna say is that I think that in these situations, we're both dealing with pride, insecurity, sometimes even realization. Like, when our spouses bring things to us, we're like, I didn't realize that. Right.

And so it's an opportunity to encourage each other. I don't think we have to fix each other. I don't think we're the solution. But we point them, we guide them, we pray for them, we speak life into each other, we see the good that they have, and then let the Lord kind of heal those other wounds that are there.

But I don't think we need to control and take. Like, we're the surgeon, we're not the surgeon.

Speaker 2

Because it'll make our husbands become more passive.

Speaker 1

Exactly.

Speaker 2

And more resentful.

Speaker 1

Exactly.

Speaker 2

So, guys, if.

Speaker 3

Oh, I had a question, but go ahead. No, wait, I'm being soft.

Speaker 2

Don't forget it.

Speaker 4

That would be passive, right?

Speaker 2

That would be passive.

Speaker 4

No. What's your question, man?

Speaker 3

I don't even remember because that's what I'm supposed to do.

Speaker 2

No. Do you want to do it?

Speaker 3

Let me serve you. Go. No, no, no.

Speaker 2

I don't even remember.

Speaker 1

Now he's modeling.

Speaker 4

Well, you remember yours, so go ahead.

Speaker 3

No, mine was the other side of, you know, if the man is dominating and really over controlling. Like before, I was saying, well, he doesn't want to lead or he isn't leading. How do you encourage him to do it?

But what if it's the opposite and it feels like he's saying, you should be submissive, you should be obeying everything I say? This is what the Bible teaches, which is a misunderstanding of that. But he's too strong and he's pushing her down, and the wife may feel like, well, I'm supposed to just. That's what Christian women do.

What do you say to those women?

Speaker 1

I would like Alan to answer that, if you don't mind, because I know.

Speaker 2

That I want to know too, what.

Speaker 4

You guys formulate your perspective on what you say to the women. But I would say that man has an extremely faulty understanding of what it means to lead. You know, if we want to see what it means to lead, we look at Jesus, none other than Jesus. Jesus was a servant leader, and he led by serving, he led by sacrificing. Right?

And so when we think about, yeah, washing feet and things like that. So this idea, I was told early on in my marriage, if you ever have to pull rank and you have to quote scriptures like, "Hey, you need to submit to me," you're not leading. Right? Because if you're leading with love and you're loving your wife as Christ loved the church, according to Ephesians 5, most women are generally going to want to follow that type of man who's leading in that way.

But when you're leading from a domineering perspective and you're telling her what to do and you're not considering her feelings, you're not considering her opinion, that's walking in pride.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2

That's good. I think what I was going to ask you guys is that if a wife was badgering her husband, like, you need to go do this or be with Pastor John, how should we approach that?

How could we say that if our husbands aren't spiritually leading or doing things at our home? What would be the most appropriate, biblical, and appealing way for us to encourage you guys?

Like, if you're not leading in any way spiritually or even really care spiritually, what's going on in the home?

Speaker 3

I defer to Alan.

Speaker 4

All right, I can answer that.

Speaker 3

I gotta talk, but I'm gonna let you go.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I mean, I think. I think this. This type of conversation really needs to be led with a lot of questions, right? Instead of. Instead of saying, hey, I think it needs to start off with, what are your thoughts about being a spiritual leader of our home?

Let him explain what that looks like. Right? Because a lot of times when we lead with questions, it gives us information to figure out where to take the rest of the conversation.

Speaker 2

God and Jesus did that a lot.

Speaker 4

Yes, exactly. You know, so if he says, well, I don't want to become spiritually rehome, then now you know, oh, okay, well, then we need to go in a different approach.

But if he says, yeah, I mean, I know that's something I need to do. I've been convicted about it. I want to. I just don't know how. And then the next question is. The next thing is not to say is, well, let me tell you how.

Yeah, the next question is, are you open to exploring some ways or are you open to exploring some possible ways that, you know, you could be the spiritual leader of our home or what? What does that look like to you?

Speaker 2

Or is there anything I can do to help?

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 4

Yeah, let him kind of ease into it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 4

We just come right in with, okay, you need to meet with Pastor John. I need to read this book. Because then it feels like, okay, now she's, I'm taking orders. Right.

I think the soft approach is after he realizes he needs the help, then you come in with, well, you know, have you considered maybe that there are some other men that we know who may be in our small group or in our community that you might be able to talk to? Have you considered asking them?

See, notice how I'm phrasing it: "Have you considered asking them?" Or, "Would you be open to us reading a book together about it? We can discuss it." Those are all soft approaches that kind of ease into it versus saying, "This is what you need to do."

Speaker 2

And then he can hear. He's listening instead of shutting down his spirit immediately.

Speaker 4

Most men don't respond well to, this is what you need to do, because it's a tactic to our manhood.

Speaker 2

And we don't either as women.

Speaker 1

And I think we should be careful using that word "need." I think "need" puts people on the defense or should. I've learned to use the open question a lot, like, "Are you open to this?"

And then the follow-up after that is, "Well, here are some suggestions." But before, it was, "Here are the suggestions. Here's what you need to do." I said "should" a lot—I should and need to.

Asking questions has been a healthier approach for our marriage. And I pray that that approach helps other marriages as well, because it allows also room for conviction.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Conversation. And then just an opportunity to love on each other. And if at the end of that conversation it doesn't end, all we can continue to do is pray for each other.

Speaker 2

And I think that's. Let's talk about that a little Bit.

Speaker 3

Well, you gotta let me answer.

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah, honey, I know. I totally want your answer because you're really good at this.

Speaker 3

Yeah, See? See what she just did? She just forgot that I'm sitting over here.

Speaker 2

No, I didn't.

Speaker 3

No, I mean, I agree 100%. And you're a master at this. You weren't, but you are now.

I think all of us thrive on encouragement. I think men especially thrive on encouragement. When we're encouraged, it's like we run faster. When we're criticized, we run slower.

Speaker 1

That's true.

Speaker 3

Hey, run faster. No. Hey, you're a good runner. Oh, watch this.

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 3

You can watch it in boys; you can watch it in a 50-year-old man. It doesn't matter any different. So I think when you see him doing something right, jump on it. Like, way to go.

I mean, the illustration we've said before is, you know, one night after praying with the boys, when they were probably 11 or 12 years old, three sons in the same room, I'm walking out of their room and Ann's in the hallway. She goes, you know, the boys hang on every word. You have such power.

I'm like, what? She's like, when I lay there with them, you know, they're listening to me, mom. But as your dad, they hang on your words. Guess what? Next night I'm running in there, hey, guys, let's open the word of God.

Speaker 4

Similar to me.

Speaker 2

Really?

Speaker 3

And again, it wasn't on manipulating my husband to get him do what I want. I think you were genuinely.

Speaker 2

No, I was asking God, show me God, like what he's doing.

Speaker 3

Well, and I didn't even know. The next night I'm running up there, but it's like I was encouraged.

Hey, I did this. Well, my wife saw, so I think that.

And again, it isn't a trick, but when you see him doing something good, even if it's a tiny little thing, encourage that and he'll want to do more of that.

Speaker 2

It's a soft approach.

Speaker 1

Good.

Speaker 3

It is soft, yes.

Speaker 4

It is soft, but effective.

Speaker 2

And I don't think we can do it apart from Jesus, like, my flesh is so sinful, it will get in.

Speaker 1

The way every single time.

Speaker 2

It's selfish, yes. But when I'm surrendered daily and I'm asking God, lord, let me serve and see and love my family the way you would. That changes everything.

Speaker 4

Yeah, it's interesting because I recently shared on a YouTube video that I did where I just kind of.

Speaker 3

How many views did it get?

Speaker 4

This one got a lot of views because it was me opening up about my life and what was going on and how I was feeling in a variety of ways. One of the things that I shared was just that sometimes I feel like, as a father and as a husband, that I'm failing. Right. I know that's not necessarily true, but it's just kind of how I feel. I finally tapped into why I feel that way, and it was primarily because, growing up, my parents were divorced when I was 6 years old. I never saw my father in the home as a husband, and I never saw my father in the home as a father.

I have a father, and he's phenomenal; I love him and he's great. But in terms of him being in the home every day from six years old and on, he was gone. So I grew up never having anything to compare it to. I'm always wondering, am I a good dad? Am I a good husband? Because I don't know what that looks like. I have friends who had dads in the home, and their dads would always take them outside and say, "Hey, let's wash a car together," or "Hey, let me show you how to tie a tie," or "Let me show you this, show you that." They were just always present.

But for me, that was gone at 6 years old. My whole childhood was spent without a dad in the home, and I never saw how a father should love his wife. So I'm always questioning all the time, am I doing enough? Am I a good dad? Am I too busy with work and ministry? Am I spending enough time with them? For any other dads out there like that, it's helpful to get that encouragement.

Speaker 2

Doesn'T that soften your heart to hear that.

Speaker 1

And you received the greatest compliment by Nya the other day. That's our seven year old daughter.

Speaker 4

Oh, yeah. Oh my goodness. Yeah. She was, we were sitting on the couch and sometimes she just asks a lot of questions.

She's at that stage where she's asking a lot of Bible questions, a lot of theology questions. We were there for about 30 minutes. She was asking questions about who is God, how was he just there, you know, who created all this stuff.

Speaker 2

That's deep.

Speaker 4

Yes, yes. Because she's at the point where she's almost ready to give her life to Christ and get baptized and things.

So out of nowhere, the next day, she said, "Daddy, I'm so glad that God gave me a daddy that can answer all of my Bible questions."

And that just literally made me melt right then and there. I'm like, wow, that's my role. Like, she appreciates that. I mean, for her to say that was just really sweet.

Speaker 3

I mean, Jennifer and Ann, is there a sense, because you're both married to husbands who had a similar no dad life?

Does that affect you in any way? Like, I want to be ultra sensitive. I want to be more encouraging.

Or is this something you think about, knowing that your man really didn't have a model?

Speaker 1

It's actually helped me take a softer approach to him because. And we discovered this in counseling.

I didn't. I knew, obviously, that his parents got divorced when he was young, but I didn't understand that. That impact. It makes an impact even as an adult.

I thought, oh, well, that happened when you were younger, because you didn't come from that. I didn't come from that.

Speaker 2

Me neither.

Speaker 1

So, I mean, but now you have an opportunity. You have a blank slate. Just be a good dad, you know? And I didn't realize that. It's like, no, there's.

Speaker 3

You two are a little bit alike here.

Speaker 1

There's trauma. There's all these things. And it helped me take a much softer approach to where all these areas that I'm like, I don't understand why he can't do this, can't do that, can't do that. That's what I'm thinking. Right?

Speaker 4

Or it doesn't come natural for you.

Speaker 1

Or it doesn't come natural. Like. And I'll use just a soft example of like, you know, I would leave maybe to go get my nails done or just to have some time alone, and I'd come back and be like, what'd you do with the kids? And like, I'm like, nothing. And I'm like, watch football by myself. Do you not know what to do with your own kids when, like, you have them? That's what I'm thinking.

And I maybe said that a couple times, but then I realized, of course, it wasn't modeled for him, you know? And so I have a much more softer push now if I come home and things. Y'all been having a good time, just however they have a good time.

One, it's not my job to control, but he's being the best dad that he can be based on not only what he knows, but what he's learning. And guess what? It's fine.

Speaker 4

Yeah. So that's where you help me and say, well have, you know, maybe consider going on a bike ride with them or maybe consider go play throw the ball in the backyard with your son.

Speaker 2

Or not. She didn't say you should.

Speaker 1

I didn't say you should.

Speaker 2

She said maybe consider.

Speaker 3

Ann would say maybe you could feed them.

Speaker 1

No, that's what I say. Have they eaten? I just say have they eaten or when's the last time they ate?

Speaker 2

When you ask that question, like do we have compassion? And we understand that. No, I didn't. I was so self-centered. I was comparing him to my dad, and that was just a lose-lose situation for you.

I think I've gotten softer too. As we hear our husbands' stories, I think it's really good to ask our spouses questions about their past.

What did it feel like when your dad left? Did you ever see anyone model for you a godly man or a godly husband or father?

Speaker 4

I saw nothing.

Speaker 2

And Dave didn't either. Zero. Nothing.

Speaker 3

We probably never had that conversation for 20 years.

Speaker 2

20 years.

Speaker 4

Because we're 10 years for us and.

Speaker 3

We'Re just digging into it, which is great. Yeah, we should have had that in our 30s.

Speaker 4

I don't think I even realized the impact.

Speaker 2

You didn't.

Speaker 4

I mean I'll be 50 years old this year. I don't even think I realized the full impact of how that experience, you know, affected me until I'm like 49 years old.

I'm just now realizing when the counseling session I broke down and cried, cuz I'm like, that was man. I don't, I don't have any model to compare this to.

I'm just trying to figure it out as I go, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 3

And the one thing I think when you say that, Alan, is when that's the reality of your spouse. In this case, two husbands and the wife is soft, and again defining soft as humble, willing to lay down her life and wash his feet.

And we go the other way. That draws us to the woman. That draws us to. Rather than, you know, like it was for a long time. It's like, you know, that was a long time ago. Get over it. You're a man now, right? I'm like, yeah, I'm trying.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'm trying.

Speaker 3

But when you're giving grace, when there's that compassion, you are drawn to one another. It builds oneness.

Speaker 4

It's understanding that it is trauma. I mean, it would be like a man saying to his wife, "Well, I know you were abused when you were young, but that happened. You were 4 or 5 years old. You know, you're 40 years old now. You should be over it."

Like, there are certain things that take a long time to process, and you don't always understand how these things affect you, sometimes until many, many years later.

And so I'm learning, I mean, as a loving husband. I mean, there have been things in her life that she's had to overcome. It would be the same situation where I'm like, "Well, hi, honey. You know, what's going on with this?"

You know, this is something, but it's like, okay, let me understand first.

Speaker 2

That's it.

Speaker 4

Let me enter into what your experience was so I can empathize.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. And it leads to intimacy, just in an intimate way. Not a physical way, but just a wow. Like, we see each other. We see each other because we know each other. So. Yeah.

Speaker 2

Yeah. I think that piece is really big. Of knowing your spouse's timeline, of digging into the past. Once we have kids, we're just in survival mode.

Speaker 1

Amen.

Speaker 2

And so we don't have those conversations.

But I think instead of sitting down and we've done this a lot, like watching a great movie or Netflix or whatever. Nothing wrong with that.

Some of those nights, sitting down and getting reacquainted or maybe even getting into our history of. What did that feel like when that happened to you?

Speaker 1

That's good.

Speaker 4

That's a great idea.

Speaker 1

Yes, it is.

Speaker 2

It's a softer presence.

Speaker 3

I never thought I liked the word soft. Now I like it.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I mean, not with my body. I'm getting in the gym, but, yeah. In our marriage and in our life, strength and humility.

Speaker 4

Maybe that's a good definition of softness.

Speaker 1

Softness sounds better. But, yes.

Speaker 4

Strength it is.

Speaker 2

Strength. Power.

Speaker 4

Humility.

Speaker 3

Let me end with this. The next time you're in Orlando, we're getting you on air. And the next time we're in Dallas, we're doing this again. You guys are awesome.

Speaker 1

That was such a.

Speaker 4

You all are always so easy to talk to.

Speaker 2

You guys are. Thank you for your vulnerability, too. And thank you for your encouragement. And if you're a woman and you haven't listened to Jennifer's podcast, what's it called again?

Speaker 1

It's called the Winning Women Podcast, where we redefine what success looks like. Not the world's way, but God's way.

Speaker 2

Awesome. Family life today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.