FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I think the reason I didn't cheer you or compliment you or point out the things you were doing well or right is because I thought if he thinks I'm satisfied, if I compliment him, he'll think I'm good. And so then he'll become lazier or be worse. I'll enable you to stay at the point where you were and I wasn't satisfied with where you were. Just saying that just sounds so wrong, doesn't it?

Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 2

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylifetoday.com this is Family Life Today. All right. Pretty exciting day here at Family Life Today.

Speaker 1

Are you excited?

Speaker 2

I've got the best guest I've ever interviewed in my entire career with Family Life Today.

Speaker 1

Do you think you're biased?

Speaker 2

Well, I think our listeners are like, who are you interviewing today? They don't know it's you.

Speaker 1

It's me, Dan Wilson. And I'm interviewing you too, kind of.

Speaker 2

Yeah, a little bit.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

We're going to talk about your new book. It's our book, but it's really your book, how to speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him. So let's go there.

I mean, there's like two titles, you know, there's the how to speak Life. But we didn't understand how to speak Life for a long time because it was.

Speaker 1

You can just say it. I didn't.

Speaker 2

I didn't either. We both. I mean, it isn't like this is a book just for women toward men. It goes both ways.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it always does. Yeah.

Speaker 2

So where did this whole idea start? Go ahead, tell them. Tell them how I told everybody in.

Speaker 1

The world instead of you. If anybody knows our story. And every marriage goes up and down, has the hills and valleys.

And we had gone through a 10 year anniversary that we wrote Vertical about, which was really hard. But we got out of that valley and we started thriving. But I was still struggling in my head about you.

So I was asked to speak to a mom's group at our church. And I was stressed about doing this speaking because I didn't have any time to work on it.

So what do I do when I'm stressed? I go to you. And so I'm like, hey, hon, what do you think about speaking with me? And you are all about it, like, yeah, I'd love to do that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, why not?

Speaker 1

So when we get there on the way, I said, "Have you thought about what you want to say?" And you said, "No, let's just wing it." Which I'm like, oh, okay. What does that mean?

When we got there, you were into it. You were super passionate, really energized. I was excited about that because I thought, oh, this is gonna be great. Women are loving this. But then you started sharing this thing that I had never heard you share before. You said, "Women, I don't know if you get what it's like for us to be men, because usually somewhere in our childhood, we have a mom or a dad or someone that speaks. They're just cheering for us, telling us, 'Hey, look at you. You're so good at that.'"

You continued, "And then I got older, and I found out, oh, I'm really good at sports, and I love sports. I had coaches that are telling me, 'Hey, Wilson, you are really good at this.' And they're cheering for me. Then I meet Ann, and Ann basically says, 'Of all the men in the world, I choose you, Dave Wilson, you're the man.'"

You were cheering for Ann, and Ann was clapping. Now I'm sitting back on this stool thinking, wow, this is so interesting. I've never even thought about Dave's process of, "You're the man." I was really proud when you said, "I chose you." I said, "You're the man," and I was cheering for you. You were really excited, and your voice was loud, and suddenly your whole demeanor changed.

Then your voice went low, and you said, "And then we get married. After we've been married for a while, I walk in the door at the end of the day, and all I hear is, 'Boo, boo, boo.' Three times. Boo, boo, boo." You also said, "And that's what it feels like as a man. When we walk in the door at the end of the day, I'm sitting on the stool, like, what just happened?"

I was shocked out of my mind. Like, what? What are you talking about? You have never said anything like this in our entire marriage. That I boo you or I do anything like that, or you come in the door at the end of the day. So what happened that day? Now that you're here, you're gonna ask.

Speaker 2

Me 30 years later?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

I mean, I honestly, like you said, I didn't prepare. And when I was up there, when I was saying that, I felt like, wow, this is what it feels like. I have never said this out loud. I don't think I've ever articulated it so clearly.

And I remember when I stood there and said that to all these women, you're right, the women sort of got quiet. I'm thinking, this isn't very affirming to them because they're you.

Speaker 1

And you said like, you know, in general, this is how most men feel, husbands feel.

Speaker 2

So then I looked over at you, you're sitting on the stool behind me, and your look was like, you are a dead man. What are you saying right now? I don't even remember the rest of the talk.

Speaker 1

I have no idea how we ended. All I know is we got into the car and I was so mad and embarrassed, humiliated, full of shame. And I said, what was that? You think I am booing you? I am helping you? Because I honestly thought I was.

Because I'm pointing out the things that you could do better, the way you could be a better dad, a better husband. And everybody in the entire church is like, Dave Wilson's amazing. He's spectacular. So I think, oh, he has the best self-esteem ever. He doesn't need me to be alongside them saying, oh, Dave, you're amazing. I thought I was motivating you by pointing out the things that you could be better at.

And so when I said, like, I am helping you, and you said, is it working? And I said, no. And that's why it feels like you're not even listening to me. So I say it more often and I say it louder.

And I think the reason I didn't cheer you or compliment you or point out the things you were doing well or right is because I thought, if he thinks I'm satisfied, if I compliment him, he'll think I'm good. And so then he'll become lazier or be worse. I'll enable you to stay at the point where you were and I wasn't satisfied with where you were.

Gosh, just saying that just sounds so wrong, doesn't it?

Speaker 2

So what do you think's going on with women toward their man? Are they really that disappointed? Because I don't think men do it as much to women, although we do it.

It goes both ways, no question, of course, but it feels like a lot of wives are pretty disappointed and feel like they got to make their man better.

And the way to do that is to not speak words of life, but words of death and critique.

Speaker 1

I think a lot of it has to do with our expectations. When we go into marriage, we may not say it. We have hopes of what our husband will be like, what our marriage will be like, and our hopes are based on what we've known our husbands to be in our dating process. And you are pretty spectacular. You're pursuing me, you're talking. It's incredible.

And then it felt like when we got married and things were stressed and busy, all that energy that you had when we were dating, now all that energy is going somewhere else. And then you have a child or two, and they're like, why aren't you helping? We have expectations of what you should be like as a father, as a husband, as a man.

And don't forget, there's an enemy of our marriage and our soul: Satan. He's the accuser. All he has to do is put a little whisper in your ear. It's interesting. You have to do that yourself again tonight. How many times has he done anything? How many nights? And has he been gone this week? You know what I mean?

So you start coming up with this list of things they're doing wrong. As they're doing brain studies now, the more you get into that neurological pathway of going down into the negative route, that's just the pattern that you get into. Now you've shaped your core thinking around all these negative attributes.

I was surprised, as we were studying this and even preparing for the book, to find that 85% of our thoughts are negative, and 95% of our thoughts are repetitive. Think about it. When Paul says to take our thoughts captive, I wonder if that's why he says that. Because if you don't, you're always going to go into the darker tunnel rather than the lighter path.

Speaker 2

How did you dig out? Take us back to the story. We're driving home. I get out of the car. We sort of separated. Because you had to be alone. I mean, it wasn't a good drive home.

Speaker 1

It was terrible. I went home and I ended up getting on my knees, and I just vented to God all of my frustration and my anger toward you. I said, "Lord, can you believe it? I am working so hard. I am doing all these things for Dave and the kids and the family. And then he says all this."

So I'm venting, telling Him everything I feel, which is good. God can take that. Sharing with Him all of that is called confession.

Then I stopped and I said, "God, do you think I boo Dave because I wanted him to get on my side?" I thought He'd say, "Ann, you're amazing." And I just felt one word: Yes, yes.

Speaker 2

I was over There praying that you'd hear from God.

Speaker 1

But it took me on this journey of I felt like God was prompting me through his spirit to one, start paying attention to what I think about you. And that was my first little step. What do I think about Dave? What do I think about our kids? Because honestly, as moms, we're training, we're disciplining, we're teaching our kids, and we can start getting into that mode with them, too, that we're constantly training them, and our words aren't even that positive toward them, especially teenagers. And so my thoughts were generally negative.

And then I felt like as I was working through this, I felt God kind of prompt me. What would happen if instead of complaining about Dave in your mind, you started praying for him? And it was so convicting, you know, of just even what are my prayers? My prayers aren't negative about you, but I start praying for you. Like, Lord, I pray that you would really show Dave who he is in you and how much you love him and help him to be the man that you've created him to be. Like, that would change everything.

And so that was interesting. And then I felt like God was saying to me, start paying attention to your words. I think this is huge because Proverbs 18:21 says, "Death and life are in the power of the tongue." And so even as a listener, as a woman, your words to your family, are they more positive or are they death words?

And so let me ask you, because one of the things I love that you did in this book is you wrote at the end of every chapter. And that's my favorite part.

Speaker 2

Whatever. I had a page or two.

Speaker 1

No, but could you see me struggling with that and trying to change? Yeah.

Speaker 2

I mean, I started to watch you wrestle with critiquing me and booing me and death words I could tell you were really, like, grappling with. I think what Dave said is what he feels. And I think wives have to deal with that.

It's like, I mean, you talk about if you're a wife listening or even a woman to men in your life, your brother, your dad, people you work with. Ask them, do you feel like I affirm you and build you up, or do you feel like I critique you and tear you down?

And again, we are not saying when a man needs to be critiqued and told the truth.

Speaker 1

And we're also not saying, like, if you're in an abusive situation of any kind, you're not like, oh, honey, you're amazing.

You need to get out and get help.

We're talking about the average goodwilled person who wants to have a great marriage, but they're struggling.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

So I watched you start to change. How did that happen?

Speaker 1

Well, I think there are a lot of things that we could get into, but one would be, I had to look in the mirror. I mean, don't you love Matthew 7:3-5 that says having a log in your eye is a pretty big deal? You know, it's when Jesus is talking and says, don't try to get the splinter out of someone else's eye when you have a log in your own eye. And I thought, I need to start paying attention to myself instead of critiquing you. I need to get out a mirror and start looking at what I'm doing, what I'm saying. How is my mind being shaped by the Holy Spirit and by God? Am I in the Word enough? Because that changes a lot of the way I think.

And I think I was crushing your spirit. And I was doing that to the kids too, which is super sad because I would watch you go out around other people and you are vibrant, you're full of life and joyful. And when you got home, you were quiet and it's just awful. But I thought, oh, he's passive, he's passive. And I think that I probably critiqued you. I never said, you're dumb, you're terrible. I wanted. I never said anything mean with my words, but my words were like, why can't you? Why don't you? You should.

And I think for you that was an incessant, constant, like, draining thought. Like, she doesn't think I'm good enough. She's not satisfied. That would be draining as a husband. And I was blaming your passivity on you just being a weak-willed man. Like, come on, man, step up, be the man. And then I would think of, hear stories. And now you can get on Instagram of what men should be like or what they should do. And it doesn't help to compare your man to any of those guys.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So how'd it change? Cause you changed.

Speaker 1

My prayer was, "God, show me the greatness of Dave. Show me the good things. Show me who you see him to be." And you guys, God started doing that one. I became accountable to some friends kind of in that journey. I had a couple of friends that knew what I was going through.

I started like, I had to be in the Word constantly because that's what starts changing our thought. Life is being in the Word. And I asked God to show me that, and so I started seeing great things in you, things that I hadn't seen in years.

And we share this. I bet a lot of people have watched Vertical Marriage and seen the chopping plants. But man, think about this. When you have a plant and the plant is you, the plant is the man. And if we take our, you can almost take a weed whacker and just chop that thing down or hedge clippers or whatever, and you're chopping all the negative things.

But if we start fertilizing and we start noticing the plant's leaves and we start pouring into like words of affirmation, do you think that matters to you? Hearing words?

Speaker 2

It matters to everybody. I mean, nobody wants to be around negative critiquing people. You run away from them. So if that's in your marriage, you're running away from your marriage, you're running to your job, you're running to other activities, you're doing whatever you can to stay out of the house.

And you know what? I was out of the house a lot. Not just my job, my ministry. I was playing ball games because, gee whiz, I can throw a softball or football. And people go, wow, you got an arm. And I didn't know that. I mean, guys don't realize I'm doing these things because I'm getting cheered in a sense.

And we're going to go have a Coke afterwards and they're going to talk about the plays I made and the plays you made. And then you come home and you're like, where were you? Why aren't you here? You know, the boys need you. You didn't mow the yard, you didn't take the trash. I mean, again, those are things that have to happen in a marriage and in a home.

But it felt like, you know, I didn't come home and you say, hey, how was the game? Did you play?

Speaker 1

Well, it's like, because I hated the game. Like, I hated that you were gone and I was mad that that took you away.

Speaker 2

I wanted you to come to the game.

Speaker 1

I did for a while. When the boys started eating like the top of bottle caps and putting them in their mouths as two-year-olds, I was like, I'm out, I'm out.

But I think not every woman and not every wife says it verbally. They've done studies on that. You can tell in your way of being.

Speaker 2

Yeah, you wrote about that in the book *Way of Being*. It was in your demeanor, it was in your attitude, it was in the rolling of the eyes, it was in A, you know, little comments, and it goes both ways.

Oh, of course. I do it all the time. I'm harsh, I roll my eyes. I make you feel stupid. We've talked about that many times. It's a way of being.

Speaker 1

That would be a great question to ask your spouse. What do you feel like is my way of being toward you?

I think in those days, what would you have said to me if I would ask you, that you're disappointed?

And I think if I would say, because this goes back and forth, I'd say, you think I'm stupid.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And you told me that you think I'm stupid. And I'm like, no, I don't. What are you talking about? And I was harsh. And my words were not words of life. They were words of death. So were yours.

Speaker 1

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2

So how did God change your mind to get you to? Because you are the greatest speaker of life to me, of anybody in my life. You cheer me, you believe in me. You say these things to me. I mean, it didn't change in a week or a month, but over time and probably over a couple of years. I'm not kidding. You speak life.

What you wrote, how to speak life to your husband, is like a memoir. But it's true. You are a great life speaker. Not just to me, to our boys, to our grandkids, to strangers in an airport. I mean, it drives me crazy. Sometimes you walk up to people and you just.

You can see, too, when you speak life, like, life enters their soul. You can see their vibrancy come to their soul because somebody sees greatness in them and speaks it out. How did you become that woman?

Speaker 1

I mean, it makes me get teary that you say that just because I was so opposite. And it makes me so sad that I was so opposite of that. I think God had to do surgery.

And I think my first thing I had to confess was pride. I was thinking all the time, the problem of our marriage is you. All the time, if he would be better, I would be happier. If he would be a better dad, the kids would be better kids. I blamed everything on you.

Speaker 2

I didn't think you'd be crying about your own book.

Speaker 1

It makes me sad the way that I was. And I was so blinded to it because I had a log in my eye. I felt like God was really convicting me. But when he did that, it wasn't a shame kind of thing. It was an encouragement. Like Ann, start seeing the greatness in Dave. And it was like God was cheering me on.

So I started out by just asking, God, show me the great things. And then I would. I couldn't even. This is so terrible. I couldn't even say it at first. The only thing I could start doing was to thank you. I asked God, show me the things he's doing well. And so I started thanking you for little things.

We've shared that before. Like you were shocked by it. And we've shared the dinner table story before of when we were about to eat and I was working through all this. I felt like I just looked at you and I said, hey, before we pray, before we eat, I just want to say thank you, Dave, for working so hard. Your work ethic is incredible. This food on the table is here because you worked so hard to provide. So thanks for that.

Speaker 2

Hey, by the way, you can get this book at familylife today.com. A link to Anne's book is in the show notes. Go get it. Go buy. You know what, we never said this about any other author's books. Go buy 100 of them. You got 100 people you want to give this book to? No, I'm kidding.

I really do think it'll be. You know, we've been praying on our knees that God would use this to transform marriages. And here's the thing, it doesn't just transform a marriage, it transforms a legacy. Because your kids are watching and they're going to copy what they see, and then it's going to be lived out in your kids and your grandkids and their kids.

So what a powerful thing to think that God gave us a message that hopefully can be used to point people to Jesus. And then as we follow Jesus, we start to live and say and do what he does.

Speaker 1

The power of a woman that God can use.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And let me add, if you have found today's conversation helpful, here's what you may not know. This doesn't happen without listener support.

We are a listener-supported ministry that people become partners with us. What's a partner? A financial partner is someone that says, I'm going to pray for you, but I'm also going to jump in and donate monthly to be a partner with Family Life to help this message get not just to my family and my kids, but to my neighborhood, my city, and the world.

Because hundreds of thousands, even millions of people can hear this message. But it's not possible unless you jump in and become a monthly partner with us. And we're inviting you to become a partner.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we need become a monthly partner, become a part of our family to reach marriages with the Gospel for Jesus.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And if you'd like to do that, you can go to familylifetoday.com There's a donate button there. Click on that and join our team.

Speaker 1

Family Life today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.