FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

What is masculinity supposed to be? What's the construction? Deconstructing things is a lot easier than constructing things.

I mean, again, it can be a great point. You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do that. Masculinity shouldn't be that.

It shouldn't be okay, but what is it?

Speaker 2

Welcome to family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylifetoday.com this is Family life today.

Speaker 2

Okay. I don't think it's any secret that you're, like, my favorite pastor of all time.

Speaker 3

I hope so. I thought you were going to say your favorite man, but you're a pastor.

Speaker 2

Well, you are, of course, but I'm saying it's one thing to say you're my favorite man, but to say you're my favorite pastor. Think about this. Over the decades and years of people we've heard and listened to and sat.

Speaker 3

Under, and you have high, high standards. I'll say that.

Speaker 2

But my favorite time of year came when you spoke, was at Father's Day every year when you'd speak to the men. Because I don't know if men liked it. But all I know is all of us women are like, this is so good.

Because you're talking about God's love, God's call for manhood. And I especially wanted all of our boys with us because you painted the picture of what God has for them so beautifully that I think we were all sitting on the edge of our seats wanting to know, what does this look like for men? What does this look like for our sons?

Speaker 3

I think I'm gonna cry. I didn't know you were gonna start there.

Speaker 2

You're so good at that.

Speaker 3

Well, I'm excited. Cause Brant Hanson is back in the studio.

Speaker 1

Yay.

Speaker 3

I don't know how many times Brant, you've been here, but every time. We love, absolutely love having you here.

Speaker 1

It's so fun. You guys are fun. I even like hearing you guys just talk to each other, too. That really is high compliment.

Speaker 3

Okay, just sit over there. We're going to talk for the rest of the program.

Speaker 1

You know how people like you're in public facing Christian stuff, whatever it is. And for the wife to genuinely say, you're my favorite pastor, you're my. Like, after knowing you thoroughly. Yeah, that's really cool. I like hearing that.

Speaker 2

And I wouldn't make it up.

Speaker 1

I know you would.

Speaker 2

I really do feel it.

Speaker 1

No, that's not. That's not who you are.

Speaker 3

I like hearing it, too. You can say it every. Every program. Can you start every program just like.

Speaker 2

But I think, too, that Brandt carries this same passion for men and boys in our culture, in our country, in our society, in our world of a biblical mandate of call for men.

And when Brandt speaks on it, I remember you coming in from the Love Like You Mean It Marriage cruise, saying, "This guy just nails this topic. It's so good."

Speaker 3

Well, we're going to talk about, you know, your most recent. You know, you wrote the Men We need now, the Young Men we need. And we're waiting for our book, the Old Men We Need. But I'm sure it's coming. But your spin is so fresh, I haven't heard it.

Speaker 2

What do you mean by spin?

Speaker 3

Decades. Well, your perspective. And we're going to talk about it. It's fresh. It's not always. In fact, and I'm not just saying this, it's the only book I recommend to people now on manhood, and I know them all.

Speaker 1

Thank you.

Speaker 3

And I'm hoping to write one.

Speaker 2

And there's some great ones.

Speaker 3

I still think I'd recommend yours because it's so fresh and it taps into history and Bible. But the Next Generation, I think, resonates with what you're saying about manhood.

Speaker 1

Thanks.

Speaker 3

And it's such an important conversation right now.

Speaker 1

Well, I feel like it's so important because even guys in the church have no clue.

We keep saying, and I appreciate the intent behind this, but we keep saying, we need men to man up.

We need guys to be men. We need men to be men.

It's like, okay, but what does that mean?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

If you're 17, 15, or 50, and no one has ever told you what is genuinely uniquely awesome about masculinity, it's life-giving to people around you.

If you don't have a vision for it, you have no idea what people are talking about. So what happens is you get it confused with all the tropes about masculinity, where it's like, okay, we need men to be men.

Okay, does that mean I have to be an Army Ranger?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Does it mean I have to hunt? Does it mean we have to go camping? Like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 3

Well, you know, it's interesting. Tell me if you agree with this. At my church in Michigan that I helped start 30 years ago, we started a man's. A men's retreat. Guess what we called it? Man Up.

Speaker 1

Right. Of course. Man up as you should.

Speaker 3

This was the 90s, early 2000s, and, you know, it was like, yeah, we're going to go away. And we did. We had hunting and all the activities. We had flights, flag football, all this stuff. But we talked about manhood all weekend. It was great stuff.

But when my youngest son, who's 33 now, Cody, was probably just getting out of college, he said to me as we were driving to this retreat, "You know, Dad, 'man up' is the wrong title for this thing." I go, "What are you talking about?" I was like, are you ripping what we created? He goes, "You really want men to do the opposite of that?" I go, "What do you mean?" And again, I was like, "Explain that."

He goes, "We don't want men to man up. That means stuff your feelings away, be macho, be tough, don't be authentic. That's a bad title." Guess what? He was right. Do you agree?

Speaker 1

You can take it anyway. All sorts of people can take it all sorts of ways. You're not giving content to the idea of what it is to be masculine.

So what I'm trying to do is actually give the vision. If you don't have the vision for it, you settle for something dumb or evil. And we see that even among Christian guys.

I saw Nancy Pearcy tweeted about this recently about a conversation with somebody who teaches in a Christian school, and he was saying, all the guys in his school are into Andrew Tate.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Who's this toxic, truly toxic influencer who's had 14 billion video views.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 1

I mean, he's influencing. He's got all these women. He's got all these children by all these women. He's got these cars he's jacked. He's a former UFC guy or whatever. It's like, oh, that's masculinity, huh? Well, it's not. It's not. But if you can't articulate what it is, they're going to go for anything. And so that's what I see as a crisis, and that's what I try to do with this book. I go, look, this may not be the perfect thing, but I think I'm onto something.

I'm trying to tell guys we should be keepers of the garden, because that's the job that Adam was given. The wild thing about this is it doesn't take long for guys to get it, because you're talking about cultivating other people's lives, protecting them, and allowing the people in your sphere of influence to bloom and thrive. But that's your role. When you do that, when you provide security and not insecurity, people recognize that as masculine.

You don't need to be jacked to do that. You don't need a big truck. You don't need to be good at ax throwing. You don't need to be an Army Ranger. All that stuff's great if that's you. Yeah, fine, fine. But that's not masculinity, because you can be great at all that stuff and be a threat to good people, including maybe your wife.

So when you understand that this is the vision, and we can talk about what that looks like, the fact that you're supposed to be a purveyor of security, you're a provider of that. You're someone who allows the vulnerable around you to thrive. People are more secure because you're around. Once you have that vision, it's life-giving to everybody around you. People find it very attractive, which is also interesting. Women will find that attractive. Other guys will find that incredibly respectable. There's something deeply true about that.

And you don't have to be all that stuff. You can be like me. I play the flute. I mean, that's not in most of the man's books. They don't have a guy playing the flute on the cover. It's usually somebody climbing up rocks and stuff.

Speaker 3

You're a flautist.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'm a flautist. But there are a lot of artsy guys.

Speaker 2

Totally.

Speaker 1

Or guys that are accountants or professors of archaeology or whatever. Not everybody's gonna be an athlete, which is awesome.

But not everybody's that. So if you're going to equate all of this stuff with being a man, it's incredibly discouraging to most guys.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 1

Who don't have a six pack and aren't on the COVID of Men's Health and don't like. It's just.

It's unfortunate because the church has kind of bought into a lot of the tropes of the larger culture when we could teach this kind of masculinity, and it would help people thrive.

Like, families would thrive and young guys would thrive because they'd finally have a vision for who they're supposed to be.

Speaker 3

Yeah. When you hear that, Ann, what do you think? I mean, you're the only woman sitting there.

Speaker 2

I was just gonna see. See, that's why women love Father's Day. And a real definition of masculinity is described from the Bible.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

It makes women sit on the edge of their seat. Honestly, as you were talking, Brianne, it made me teary in terms of like, yes, that's what we as women long for.

We're not looking for the guy that's so cool and he's doing all these things. We're looking for the faithful man who will be beside us, protect us, and care for the vulnerable.

And we long for that for our sons too. But I'm just going to say, in our culture now that we have four grandsons, I'm looking for models of that.

Speaker 1

Exactly.

Speaker 2

And I don't see it around very many places.

Speaker 1

No, I want to scream it from the rooftops, honestly, because of that. And guys are so desperate for this; they just need somebody to tell them. Just need somebody to tell him.

So I talk about when our son was nine and I told him, and it never dawned on him. Frankly, it hadn't really dawned on me until it came out of my mouth. He was picking on his little sister, and I had to go back there and break it up. I told Justice, our son at the time, "Justice, you're supposed to protect your little sister. I'm having to protect her from you. You betrayed your role."

I don't remember having that problem again with him. I honestly don't. Maybe we did, but I don't remember it. I think little guys get it when you tell them because it's so deeply true that we're made for this. You're given strength, intelligence, and whatever talent you have to fulfill this role.

And it's not a domineering, overbearing masculinity; it's the opposite. You're using your strength and what you have to let people bloom, like little species that can't thrive in the wilderness, in a garden that's tended by somebody who's caring and strong. That species gets to bloom; it gets to become beautiful because you're there.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

It's not only women that are like, resonate with that. You tell guys this, they're like, yes, that's it.

Speaker 3

That's what I'm called to be.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I can use whatever I have.

Speaker 3

We were walking out of high school football game Friday night this past week.

Speaker 2

I just happened to take a video.

Speaker 3

I've got it. Oh. I wanted to show Bray at this video because I was walking out in front and we had our two grandkids, a five year old and three year.

Speaker 2

Old, oldest is a girl.

Speaker 3

And Anne just shoots this video from behind him and watch Bryce protect His little sister. It's so nice. I didn't even see it because I was in front of him, but here they are. There they are walking out.

Speaker 1

Oh, sweet.

Speaker 2

Look how his hands on her back.

Speaker 1

Yeah. In a crowd.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And somebody was gonna run into her.

Speaker 1

So he was ushering her around.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

That's pretty awesome.

Speaker 2

His hands on her back the whole time, and then he just can't help but just touch her hair.

Speaker 3

Anytime somebody gets near, he just sort of pulls her away.

Speaker 1

That's really impressive.

Speaker 3

That's what we're called to do. Keeper of the Garden.

Speaker 1

They get it. They understand it.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Our son had the same talk. Your job, your role is to protect.

Speaker 1

And he understands it. At 5, can you send me that video? That's really interesting because, again, it's just a matter of articulating this within your family.

Maybe you're a single mom or maybe you're a dad or, like, it doesn't. But you've got a son. Tell him that this is his role. Tell him.

Because if you don't hear it, articulate it. Are you just supposed to pick it up from the atmosphere and the culture? No.

Speaker 3

Not gonna get it there.

Speaker 1

Not gonna get it there. And you're not gonna get it from just going, yeah, you need to man up. What are you talking about?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So tell them this is their role. This is why I wrote the book.

And if there's a similar book, it doesn't matter if there's one like that; I would like to drop them from airplanes, scatter them all over Christian schools and churches and whatnot.

Like, guys resonate with this. They read it and they're like, oh, I get it.

And then it winds up being a blessing to their future wives or their families or even their neighborhoods, because they now understand I'm here to provide security and to let people thrive and defend the innocent.

Speaker 3

Now, talk about. You already used the term Keeper of the Garden. We know what it means. You've talked about it with the men we need. Is it different or is it a different nuance with the young men we need follow up. Same thing.

Speaker 1

Same thing. The follow-up, I just made it shorter, honestly. Yep. Because I know young guys. That's not your number one reader demographic, so I try to make it engaging. I try to inject it with humor and stuff too, but it's quick, and it makes the point.

I also remember when I wrote this book, reading Christian books or books that were for teens when I was a kid and feeling like my intelligence was a little insulted. So I was like, I'm not going to do that. I didn't make it dumb.

Speaker 2

So you're gonna speak to them as men?

Speaker 1

Absolutely. If they learn a few new words, great. But I'm speaking to them to call that out of them. It is angled towards them understanding that a lot of what we're talking about at this age, but they do understand it. That's just it. Because it's deeply true.

When I talk about this model of masculinity in groups, it can be adults that are at a secular corporation, like they have some Christian leadership. So they'll have me come in. I'm watching the women who, again, they didn't sign up for Christianity or anything necessarily, but they're like, what's going on? What are you talking about? I'm wondering what they're thinking when I'm talking about this.

I get done, and they come up and they're like, how do I tell my boyfriend what you just said? There's something deeply true about this role that Adam was given, that people pick up on it. I'm wondering if they're like, man, this is sexist. It's not sexist. And they can tell this would be life-giving and it'd be good news for me and everybody around me if he understood that this is who I want him to be. This. And he could be this.

Speaker 2

Paint a picture for us, guys. Like I'm asking the two of you, for young men today, what do you think? Do they have any idea?

What do you think culture is telling them? You've already said it's this macho man.

But even for the younger men, what's going on in them today and why is there no example?

Speaker 1

I will defer my time today to.

Speaker 3

The old man in the room.

Speaker 1

No, no, no. I don't think culture is telling them anything constructive. Nothing, Only deconstructive. Including in church stuff.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

What do you mean by that?

Speaker 1

Well, we've got books about masculinity that are popular, Jesus and John Wayne and whatnot within Christian circles. And it's like, man, you make some great points.

Yeah, but what is masculinity supposed to be? What's the construction? Deconstructing things is a lot easier than constructing things. I mean, again, it can be a great point. You shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. Masculinity shouldn't be that.

It shouldn't be okay, but what is it if you don't have a vision for it? What are we supposed to be doing? So guys grow up without being able to articulate it. I'm quite sure I could go to a Christian high school, ask guys individually what is masculinity and not get a good answer.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

What do you think they'd say?

Speaker 3

They'd say the things Brant said earlier. Jacked good looking money, women, cool truck.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

As a woman hearing that, followers, baddest thing ever. Because I think women feel like I have to bear the load. I have to take care of everything and everyone.

Speaker 1

Okay. That's interesting too, because when we talk about toxic masculinity, and I talked about this in both versions of the book, but there's toxic in the overbearing, domineering sense. We know that, but there's a toxic passivity too.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And it's talk about that that's rampant.

Speaker 1

It's what Adam was guilty of. See, Adam wasn't overbearing, but he just laid there, didn't do anything. While Eve is being tempted, he's right there and he does nothing, and everything falls apart as a result. But I say it's toxic because both of those examples bring insecurity into the home or into a relationship. Your wife will feel that way if you're married: "It's all on me. I guess he's not gonna rise to the occasion. He's off on his own thing. He's not plugged in, and he's so passive."

Both of them bring insecurity into the garden. So that's why they're both toxic. I do think the idea of constructing something, though—a vision like this for young guys—is so important for that very reason. Within, like we're talking about Christian schools and churches, there's not really a good articulation of it. And then outside, we know our culture is completely confused and would utterly resist any sort of idea that masculinity is beautiful in any specific, wonderful way.

So I love that we get to articulate this now. Again, I just want to bombard young guys with this because they love it. They actually like it.

Speaker 2

I don't know about you, but I need parenting help. Not just sometimes, but most of the time. So maybe you feel like that too.

And we have resources to help you as a parent. You can go to familylife.com, and you're going to find resources that will really help you. Not just once in a while, but as much as you want. That's the benefit.

Again, you can go to familylife.com/parentinghelp.

Speaker 3

I know that, you know, in 33 seasons with the Detroit Lions as our chaplain, because we lost a lot. Went through 12 coaches, head coaches, and I'm not exaggerating, every head coach ended up coming to chapel where I would speak on the Bible on Saturday nights before our game.

And every year I would give a message on biblical manhood. What's a man? Every head coach, after they heard that message, would say to me, every season, you have to give that same message. He goes, these young men don't know what a man is. That vision they don't have, you gotta give that every year.

And it was the only message I ever gave. They said, you got to do again.

Speaker 1

Isn't that something?

Speaker 3

And I was like, they knew that. They don't. And they also knew this. If these guys in this locker room understand what a real man is, what God calls them to be, not only will we win football games because it will translate into better things happening in their job, but they'll go home and be better men in the community, in the church, in their homes and dads.

I mean, you know this, but I mean, even non-Christ-following coaches who are like, I don't know where you get all that stuff, but that's what a man is. It's actually out of the book written by the man who's the best man, Jesus. You know, they didn't even know that. They just resonated. Their soul resonated. That's the vision.

Speaker 1

Think for young guys, too, the stuff that they struggle with. If you don't have a vision in life for what you're supposed to be, you'll fall for anything.

Like, why not? What's the thing? So with anything in life, all of this, all of the foolish, dumb things that we can get addicted to or be involved in, it's like, yeah, you can only give that up if there's something bigger that you're embracing.

Speaker 2

Bigger vision.

Speaker 1

Yeah. You can't just go, nah, I'm done with that. And I don't have a big. You always give it up because you love something more.

So to have a vision that guys are like, wait, that is who I want to be. I know who I want to be. Now, this other stuff doesn't make sense. It starts to fall apart. Like sitting and playing video games 16 hours a day.

Again, nothing wrong with video games per se, but it's like, there is something wrong with that. Because we needed you. God gave you skills and abilities. Maybe they're physical stuff, maybe it's an intellect, maybe it's verbal, whatever you've got. But we needed those skills and abilities. We needed you to show up.

Speaker 3

I mean, I love your chapter title where you talk about video games and the young men we need.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I said video games are too awesome.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And I mean it.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Meaning they're actually too awesome.

Speaker 3

Yeah. They can take over. Yeah.

Speaker 1

They're so much fun. See, the problem is it pays off so fast. You don't level up constantly in life. You get a job at the grocery store; they don't level you up every five minutes. So you don't get the dopamine hits, but you do from this other stuff, from this fake stuff. And real life has a hard time competing with that.

But once we get this vision of, here's what society needs, here's what my neighbors need, what women and children need, they need me in this role. People should be safer because I'm there, even if they don't know it. Even if they don't know they're safer because I'm there. Young guys, football players, but young guys.

Speaker 2

That are in their.

Speaker 1

You're in your athletic prime, 19, 20, 21 years old, and you've got testosterone like crazy that makes you want to take risks and do things. That's to provide security. I mean, you're made to do that. It's not to be a threat.

So ideally, if we would tell guys that this is actually what your strength is for and give them a vision for life, we would see groups of guys that are 20 years old, 19, walking down the street, and we wouldn't head the others. We'd be like, oh, good, I'm glad we got some young guys here.

Speaker 2

Yeah, the protectors are here, the strong ones. Yeah.

Speaker 3

They're not just gonna take stupid risks.

Speaker 1

No, but they're willing to take risks. They're not stupid.

Speaker 3

Cause you talk about that, it's like at some point your girl just thinks you're being dumb.

Speaker 1

So I do have a chapter about taking risks that can be good if it's in the service of protecting the vulnerable. But if it's not, if it's just like, "Hey, I'm going to jump this canyon with this awesome BMX bike," she might, at 24, go, "Why? You're a father. I'm not attracted to that anymore."

See what they're thinking? I'm telling young guys this. When you're young, in high school, they'll look at somebody who does that kind of stuff. Or in middle school, look at him jump on this bike. They're thinking, "Hey, he's brave; down the line he would be really good to protect the family."

But if you're doing it at 30 and you're still taking those risks for no reason, then it's not attractive anymore at all. It's the opposite, because now it brings insecurity.

Speaker 2

So it's true.

Speaker 1

So you're hoping that that football player likes you. You look at him in high school and see that he's strong and a leader; that'd be great. But if you marry him and he turns out to just flirt with other women and is all about his own body, then you might start to resent him because he's not bringing the security you were hoping for.

However, I do think that once you give guys a vision of this, they can actually self-correct with the Lord in their life. They can realize, "This is who God actually wants me to be, and it's what my wife hopes for me to be." And then they might think, "Wait a second. I can do this."

Speaker 3

I mean, we're almost out of time for the first day. And I would love to know as a woman, because wives are listening right now, and some of them are thinking, how do I help my man capture that vision of being keeper of the Garden?

I mean, they're going to say, here's a podcast you should listen to. Here's two books you should read. And they're going to put them by the toilet and say, you know, please read these. That doesn't work.

And I know you've experienced a toxic passivity sometimes in my life. How do you speak into a man's life? And Brant, can she?

Speaker 1

Yeah, here's what I suggest.

Speaker 2

Honestly, go ahead.

Speaker 1

Because I've had this question from a lot of women. I think there's probably something in this book that will remind you of your husband.

Something. It's just a little bit of something he's ever said, something he's ever done.

And you could say, you know what? This kind of reminds me of you. I think you're gonna like this.

Speaker 3

It's a good way to do it.

Speaker 2

That's great.

Speaker 3

That's positive. That's not encouraging.

Speaker 1

It's not. Boy, you're failing.

Speaker 2

I would even go a little bit further if possible if they can see it. But if you've heard this and you think my husband has a piece of is tiny, maybe it's a pea size.

But if you say to him, which I've said this to our sons as well, man, I see. I don't even think you understand that you have this leadership gift that when you talk, people listen to you. Like there's a power in that.

So if you as a wife found something that was said today and you can just say, I listened to this today, it reminded me just like you're saying, Brant, it reminded me of something you're good at. I could see you really liking this.

Speaker 1

Yeah. That way you're building them up, and this is very powerful. We can talk more about this later.

But when a wife says, "Boy, it's attractive when you do that," it could be the smallest thing, like that you're willing to act. You're willing to do something that, as a man, is like, "Is it you might?"

Speaker 3

Just created a monster because he's gonna keep doing it.

Speaker 2

It's funny, I sat down with that five year old grandson and I showed him the video and Dave did too. And we said, Bryce, like, look at you protecting your sister.

Speaker 1

That's genius.

Speaker 2

And he said, I didn't even know I was doing that.

Speaker 1

That's brilliant.

Speaker 2

And we said it's because a part of who you are.

And your mom and dad have been telling you, you are the protector of your sister and you can't always be perfect, but when you're with her, you're having an eye on everybody around to make sure she's safe.

And he was beaming. He was so proud.

Speaker 1

Yep. That's how you shape someone into a keeper of the guard. That's how you do it. Like you're commenting on it, bringing it out, complimenting it, saying, this is what you're made for. Way to go.

Speaker 3

You can't shame them in.

Speaker 2

No, I've tried that.

Speaker 1

It doesn't work.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And I tell you what, this conversation with Brandt, we love you. Brant is so rich. It just really is. And the truth in his book, the Young Men We Need Nobody, he's telling the young men these kind of things.

Speaker 2

I know.

Speaker 3

And so this is the kind of book and content you want to get for your kids, for yourself. And we want to get it to you. So here's how this works. We would love you to give us a financial gift of family life. That's how we do what we do; partners like you say, "I'm in."

If you give a gift of any amount, we'll send you the young men we need. We'll send you Brandt's book. I think you'll love it. I think you'll use it for decades to come. This is a truth that's universal, and it isn't limited to a time. It's forever.

So here's how it goes: just send a gift. You can actually go to familylifetoday.com to find out how you can send a gift there. Or, if you would like, just give us a phone call here at 1-800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in family, L as in life, and the word today.

And again, man, I hope today's conversation has been great, but it ends, and you turn it off. The book will be on your coffee table.

Speaker 2

Coffee table. And you can underline it over and over and read it through many times.

Speaker 3

Of course, you can listen to this broadcast over and over and over again. Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.