FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Research tells us that in the face of failure, boys are more likely to point the finger outward and blame someone else. Girls are more likely to blame themselves.

And I see evidence of that, not just with kids, but with adults. I can't tell you how often I sit with moms in my office whose kids are struggling in some way, who will say, "Tell me what I'm doing wrong."

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylife today.com.

Speaker 2

This is Family Life Today.

Speaker 3

So I'll never forget the day sitting in seminary when the teacher came in and said, "Here are the kind of men that go into ministry." He read this report. This study, this research had been done over decades, and it basically said that the most insecure, unhealthy, emotionally unstable men go into ministry because ministry provides significance. The spotlight's on you. You're in the front of the room. Everybody's listening to what you say.

I remember thinking, wow, these are loser type guys. And I don't know if you remember it, but I came home.

Speaker 2

I do remember you coming home. You were depressed.

Speaker 3

Yeah, well, I came home depressed. But I also said, man, I'm so glad I'm not that guy. I mean, I was like, wow, I can't believe that those kind of insecure men going to ministry, man, that's not me.

Speaker 2

Oops.

Speaker 3

And it wasn't for years till I realized, oh, my goodness, I was that guy. And I couldn't see it. I mean, I would have told you.

Speaker 2

I didn't think you were like that.

Speaker 3

Well, I would have told you I am one of the most emotionally healthy men I know. I thought that in my 20s.

Speaker 2

And now as we've gotten older, maybe our kids have pointed out some of our weaknesses.

Speaker 3

Well, you see it. You just. I mean, we got married and you started saying things. I'm like, she's wrong. She was right. I had a lot of unhealthy emotions that I could not process.

So with that as an introduction, I thought, let's talk about a home that's unhealthy. So we brought the wisest counselor I can think of, David Thomas, back in.

Speaker 2

We love David.

Speaker 3

Oh, man, you are so good. You really are.

Speaker 1

So happy to be back with you all. I had a professor in grad school. I will never forget this first year of grad school who said, you all should know that every one of you is here because you're trying to fix something in yourselves.

Speaker 2

And what did you think? Did you think that's true or were you offended?

Speaker 1

How arrogant a declaration to make to assume you would know all of us and then went on to say everyone would go into this field because that's in there somewhere. And I think, aren't we all.

Yeah, I mean, even beyond the field that I'm in, I think, aren't we all trying to fix something? And all the ways that I think people in the world are moving to attempt to do that as opposed to going to God?

But I think there was truth in those words and I didn't want to hear it in that same way either, that I think deeper down my professional road would start to see evidence of.

Yeah, that is undoubtedly true for every one of us.

Speaker 3

Well, you spent the last 25 years at Daystar Counseling in Nashville, counseling families and counseling kids. You're still doing that. We've been talking about your book, *Raising Emotionally Strong Boys*, and the one before that, *Wild Things*. That's a great way to engage with parents. And there's a workbook, too, to help find boys.

You see a lot of health and unhealth in homes. So we thought today could be a good opportunity to ask David to list the top five signs of an unhealthy home. You don't even have to do all five; you can share three or four, and we'll chime in.

As you think of signs we should be looking for that indicate, "Man, this is unhealthy," consider the emotional health in this home. What's the first one that comes to your mind?

Speaker 1

I'm going to cheat a little from leaning into three things I talk about in the book that were rooted in the very question you're asking of seeing evidence of what would cause kids to move in a direction of not developing emotional strength.

And so I talk in the book about what I call the three R's, which I'll name them, and then we'll talk about where they fit within your questions. So it's recognize, regulate, and repair.

If I were just going to give a quick definition to each, recognize is kind of like the dashboard on a car where it will signal you if your tire is low or the tank is empty or you might get a check engine light. That means I've got some bigger problems.

Speaker 3

Potentially, it actually means nothing, David. It's just a light. You know, it's like, what are you talking about? It's got to be wrong.

Speaker 1

And we could even talk about the male's response to the check engine light versus the females. Which fits within all of what we've been discussing.

Speaker 2

I've never thought of that in my. If the light is on, it needs to be serviced now.

Speaker 1

Exactly. And how that fits, I think, with all of what we've been talking about along the way. We are less likely as males to pay attention to some of those signs and signals. I talk about how the dashboard on the car is the same as our bodies, and that our bodies will signal us when we are carrying more stress than we need to be carrying for extended periods of time. For every one of us as people, if I carry high levels of cortisol, the stress hormone, that may show up in some ways, like headaches or migraines or digestive issues. I might carry a lot of tension in my back and neck; my body is going to cue me in the way my car will cue me.

If I pay attention to those signs and signals and do what the car needs, the car keeps running. If I ignore those, I'm going to end up on the side of the road. It turns out the same is true for us. Think about the classic work, "The Body Keeps the Score." It turns out that's 100% true. Our bodies do keep score. The first benchmark of an unhealthy home would be that you don't pay attention to what you're feeling or what the people around you are feeling. We dismiss, we disconnect. There are all different directions that I think we move.

I think back to our earlier conversations that happened for generations and generations. We didn't name the hard things that were happening in families, believing that if we don't talk about it, it's not really happening. In reality, this made it worse because we didn't give it a name. What we know happens with kids in those moments is that if no one names what's going on, kids internalize that and often move toward a sense of responsibility.

This is why, often in the case of addiction, for example, kids will work hard when no one names the problem of addiction, believing, "I need to be fill in the blank: a better student, more compliant, less loud." All the directions that kids go to try and keep a parent who's medicating with a substance from taking hold of the substance. I've even known kids who set alarms in the middle of the night and would go into the refrigerator and dump out alcohol, believing that would stop it. You see that sense of responsibility because we aren't naming what's going on, which starts with that first R of Recognizing.

Speaker 2

I'm thinking, Dave, of you when you were seven and your little brother died, who was five and a half, so a year and a half apart, and he died around Halloween. And let's just say this. Your family never talked about it.

Speaker 3

Oh, never.

Speaker 2

Never talked about it. You just ignored everything. And because your family, like your mom and dad, were both alcoholics, you never talked about anything.

But I remember your mom saying, every single Halloween after Craig died, you got sick. You know, it's like, physically, literally, there it is.

But instead of recognizing that and thinking, we should probably get help, nothing was ever going to happen.

Speaker 3

That was my question. When you're saying unhealthy homes don't recognize, how do you recognize what you can't recognize? Like, when I heard that study in seminary, I thought, I'm good. I couldn't even see it. Yet I had.

And everybody else with any kind of insight would have been able to go, dude, can you see it? And I'm gonna think one of your answers may be what helped me is my wife was able to speak into me. Other men would say, hey, dude, and.

And you have to listen and go, really? Is that part of the answer?

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

I know you write about mentors and friends and mom and dad in your book, but it's other people helping you.

Speaker 1

One of the questions I ask early in the book is, who are your five people you go to to ask for support? And I think there's two layers to that. One, I need to know my five people, and two, I need to know how to ask for help. It's one thing if I have people available to me, but I don't know how to be transparent and honest and say, what a powerful story you shared. Your body remembered what no one was naming. And it's important to go back to.

I love what you said in an earlier episode of all we knew was what we knew at that point. And so I don't want any grandparent listening to feel shame as you hear us tell that story. We believe that we were helping kids when we didn't acknowledge those things, when in reality it was hurting that we weren't naming the hard things happening around us. And so I think it really does start with the understanding of how vital that is.

And that kind of back to what we talked about earlier, that internal pain always has an external presentation. And I'm fascinated by how much we talked a little bit earlier about overachieving happens as a way of covering and how many men I see in this world who are just knocking it out of the park vocationally. That I think is a running from a racing away from some pain.

Speaker 2

That was what a counselor said to Dave. Like, oh, wait, you're the quarterback, the point guard, the shortstop. You've won every award. You've played college football. You had a scholarship. And didn't he say, what are you running from?

Speaker 3

No, he. Yeah, we don't need to go there. But he literally was looking at my life now and saying, you know, every job you have, the spotlight is on you, whether it's on a stage or leading a Bible study.

Or even he goes, go home and answer this question: What are you running from? And I laughed, like, what am I running from? I came home and Anne goes, oh, my goodness, I've been saying that for 20 years.

So it was that not recognizing. Okay, so that's one side we gotta keep going.

Speaker 2

But maybe we should even talk about it.

Take an assessment. Ask your kids, think through, like, how are they doing physically?

Are they saying their stomachs are upset or they have headaches?

Are they clenching their teeth so bad they break their teeth like I've done several times?

Speaker 1

Hmm.

Speaker 2

Maybe I should take an assessment. Okay, that's the first one.

Speaker 1

Well, and I know to your great point that you all likely talk with my dear friend Sissy Goff about that.

That's so often how we identify anxiety early on with kids: they're having tummy aches. That's one of the first ways that we can usually see an indicator light going off of some kind.

The first star of recognition is that their body is presenting the worry in some way that they can't name.

Speaker 3

So the first sign is don't recognize. Second one is regulate.

Speaker 2

Yes, an unhealthy family would not regulate yourself.

Speaker 1

Exactly. So back to even the anger that we've talked some about. Like, it's so present; it's either under the surface boiling at all times, or it's flying all around the room, or it's showing up back to the internal external through, let's say, substance abuse. Or maybe it is a dad who is using Internet pornography as a way to try to manage and tame the anger in some way. So they haven't learned healthy coping skills. That's kind of my definition for regulate: employing calming and coping strategies when the nervous system goes into a heightened state of arousal.

So I have these signs and signals going off, and I've got to figure out what do I need to employ to bring myself from stress to settled or from chaos to calm. Where that even connects back to kids taking responsibility is that when parents are dysregulated, kids can move into that exact same posture, even if they never say it out loud, that it is in some way their job to help the grownups around them feel less—fill in the blank: stress, anger, sadness.

Since the Nashville shooting happened, I have never had so many kids in my office talk about how their parents are doing than any other time in 25 years of doing this work. They're so attuned and aware because, understandably, every parent, whether you had a child in that school or just a child in another school in Nashville, parents in our city are carrying more fear, more worry right now than any other time. Because it's not just a story on the news somewhere else in the world; it happened in our city, in a school that we all know and love.

And so I've had more kids say, "My mom feels really worried. My mom is not usually this sad." I had a little boy even say to me, "My dad never sleeps past 8 o'clock, but he has been sleeping past 8 a lot lately, which makes me think he's not sleeping much in the middle of the night." All the ways that I think kids have their thumb on the pulse of a family in ways we don't give them credit for.

When parents don't know how to do the work of regulation, I think, one, kids don't get an opportunity to sit front row and see what regulation looks like on the grownups they trust the most in this world. And two, they can start to take on some responsibility around that in ways that's not theirs to carry.

Speaker 2

So how would we recognize that in our kids if they are taking on that responsibility?

Because I'm guessing you're busy. As parents, you've got a lot of demands on your life with work and school and activities.

So how would they start looking to see if their kids are doing that?

Speaker 1

I would first look for some of the physical signs. Are they reporting more tummy aches? Are they reporting more headaches? Are they having difficulty with sleep? Or kind of the other extreme, are they overachieving? Are they overperforming?

Even kids who I feel like when their parents are really sad will over entertain. I had a parent tell me one time they had lost a child and they noticed their firstborn child trying to be extra funny. It was almost like I need to lift the heaviness by becoming a little bit of a comedian at the dinner table by making sure I make my parents laugh enough during the day.

So I would watch for some of those indicator lights of where kids might be caring more. Because we talk a lot in my work about how all behavior is communication of some kind. So even things that kids can't say or don't say, often we will see evidence of what's being said through their behavior in some way. And those would be some things to watch for.

Speaker 3

We've only got two down so far.

Speaker 2

I know.

Speaker 3

I feel like so much to work on.

Speaker 1

So the third R, the third R is repair. And that is taking ownership and doing any needed relational work. I would say the sign of an unhealthy home is when you can't take ownership. You can't clean up your side of the street. You can't do the work of apologizing.

That's something that I have heard both of you talk about doing with your adult sons at different points, which I think is a necessary ingredient for all families. We are going to fumble the ball. We're gonna lose our temper. We are not gonna be present with our kids in the ways we want. We're not gonna show up as all of who we wanna be.

In those moments, we need to learn what it looks like to ask our kids for forgiveness if we expect them to be people in relationship with their own kids who know how to do that.

Speaker 3

You know, it's interesting, when you were talking, I thought, oh, I got a fourth one. And it starts with the letter R. But as you said, repair. I'm like, oh, it's the same thing. I was going to say refusal to repent, but it's really what you just said.

It's an unhealthy home. Or an unhealthy person doesn't apologize, doesn't own their sin, doesn't own their mistakes. There's too much pride for them to ever go to their sons or daughters or their wife or their husband and say, I was wrong.

And I got. So that's really what you're talking about in repair. It's just this repent, humility that says, I need to do this, probably. Is it like something weekly, daily? It all depends, I guess. But it's regular.

Speaker 1

It's regular.

Speaker 3

It's another R. I guess it is.

Speaker 1

And I think it's worth building on because I think it is of such importance. I talk about how boys do a lot of swinging between blame and shame as opposed to getting to that healthy middle ground of ownership.

Think about all the different ways this could show up with boys. You know, blame could look like my teacher didn't teach it the right way, my sister made me mad, or my coach didn't give me enough playing time. It's all about pointing the finger outward.

In fact, I'll back up one step and say that this research tells us that in the face of failure, boys are more likely to point the finger outward and blame someone else, while girls are more likely to blame themselves.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 3

I see that's a male, female difference.

Speaker 1

That is. And I see evidence of that, not just with kids, but with adults. I can't tell you how often I sit with moms in my office whose kids are struggling in some way who will say, tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Speaker 2

Absolutely.

Speaker 1

It's this assumption that if my kids are struggling in any way, it must be something I'm either doing or not doing enough of. Where it just may be your kids are needing to do more skill development and it's not something you haven't done or not doing enough of. There just needs to be more practice.

But I think that instinct can stay in place, and I think for adult men as well. I tell a story in the book of a dad whose son caught him in infidelity. He saw a picture on his dad's phone of his dad kissing another woman. And he asked his dad about it, and listen to the blame within his dad's response. It's so subtle, but it's important. He said, "I wish you hadn't found that." You hear that? Not, "I wish I hadn't done that." I wish you hadn't found that picture.

And so I think that tendency can carry on throughout growth and development unless we're developing that third R. I think it is impossible for kids to develop any of those three R's unless they can see it again on the grownups around them. Kids have to see repentance modeled in order to know how to do that and to believe how foundational it is to all their relationships.

Speaker 3

All right, you got one.

Speaker 2

I come from a very performance-oriented family. Everything was competitive. We're the best. We have to be the best at everything. So I carry that into my parenting. And I didn't even know that I was doing it when our kids were really little. But I would compare them to other kids and I would say things to them out loud. It's on video, and now they all watch it. Like, "Mom, how can you do this?" I remember when one of our sons was trying to dribble, and what do I say? "Your cousin Chaz can already dribble." Who says that as a parent?

I already carry that myself. I'm comparing myself because that's just what we did as a family. But not only comparing our kids, I think we are in a culture right now where we're comparing ourselves to so many people that are invisible, even on social media, and so often we come up short. I don't think I compare my kids to other kids outwardly, but I can still do that inwardly, thinking, "Why aren't my kids progressing? Why aren't my kids acting like these other kids? It must be me." I always turn it inward.

I don't do it as much as I used to, but it still can be that tendency where it feels to me sometimes like Satan whispers in my ear, "It must be you." And God's just doing a work in all of us. So I think an unhealthy family is in constant comparison with their kids, themselves, and the culture. On the healthy side, I feel like we've learned to do that later in life, as we're seeing the beauty and the uniqueness of each one of our kids, and then we're speaking that to them.

If they're not measuring up to anyone else, it doesn't matter because we don't want them to be anyone other than who God created them to be. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1

Oh, it not only makes sense, it's brilliant. I think I love you guys. Well, I think how often I'm saying to myself, like the wisdom of those words we all know, comparison is the thief of joy. Comparison is the thief of joy. I can feel myself getting more discontent, more sad, more all these things the longer I camp out in that space.

And then I love that you mentioned social media because I think we talk all the time with kids and adolescents about, remember that it's just a highlight reel. It's just a highlight reel. And we can lose that ourselves. Like we are needing to say to ourselves out loud, whatever I'm seeing is about 10% of what's going on. Yes, that's it. And yet we forget. And then we slide right into that place of comparison.

Speaker 2

It's a tool of the enemy because God's celebrating the uniqueness and the beauty of each of us all the time. Even as parents, when we fail, he's still cheering us on.

It's the gospel, it's grace that covers a multitude of sin. It's the goodness of Jesus giving us new life.

What's yours, Dave? What's the fifth one?

Speaker 3

Here's one that we have mentioned that I think is definitely a sign of an unhealthy home. Unhealthy families don't talk. They hide their stuff, they push down, they overachieve, they cope, but they don't talk. Healthy families talk. I don't know what to say. It would be, if you want to use an R word, it would be released. Say out loud what you're feeling, what you're hiding, maybe the pain you've gone through.

And Ann mentioned it earlier, I grew up in a home where there was actually physical abuse and emotional abuse. Dad had girlfriends, left mom, both parents drank. And then my brother died, all in a period of about 18 months. We moved, you know, I'm a little boy, and we moved from my home of origin to a whole other state just because that's where my mom's parents were. Now she's a single mom in the 60s.

All that to say, the day my brother died, my sister told me—she's in high school—she said, "I came home from high school, a priest is walking out of our driveway and says to me, 'Your brother's dead.'" And he leaves. Pam said, my sister, she said, "I walk in the house. Mom never mentioned it. We never talked about it." And that's the home I grew up in.

So I thought it was normal when you have pain, you stuff it away and you move on. That's how we dealt with it. When my dad came to visit Ann and me in our first year of marriage, this is funny—it's tragic, but it's funny. He sits down after dinner, and Ann says to him, because she comes from a different home and a different, more healthy environment, "Hey, Ralph, never heard your side of the divorce. Let's talk about it. I'd like to hear your side." And I grab her under the table, like, "What are you doing?"

Speaker 2

He's squeezing my left eye.

Speaker 3

I'm grabbing her like, you can't do that. We don't talk about that. So I was freaking out. I mean, our heart rate went over 100. I'm sure. I'm like. And I'm like, my dad is going to be so mad. He is going to look at her and just.

And I'll never forget, my dad looks and goes, you want to hear my side? Nobody's ever asked me. And we have this conversation. I'm sitting there going, I knew none of this.

And again, I was being exposed to healthy families talk. True.

Speaker 1

So true. And can I say two things to that, that I am so struck by? To hear you name all of those ingredients that were a part of the earliest chapters of your life, and to think about who you are and what you do, what a beautiful picture of what the enemy intended for harm, God intended for good. That this should not have been your story. And the redemptive rescue. That's extraordinary.

To think about who you are as a man and the work you are doing in this world, that's just incredible. And to think, to hear you tell that story, that God would call you into relationship with this remarkable woman who. That would be her instinct, to ask that question in the earliest moments. To think all the healing that would come through that relationship too.

I am so struck by the kindness of God. When I sit with people and their stories and when I sit in my own story, there is no other explanation, no other explanation but the kindness and the goodness and the faithfulness of God. I just feel it so strongly as you were sharing that. And I just wanted to reflect that back to you.

Speaker 3

No. And I would just add, when you say that, I think there's some listening that think that's your story. It can never be my story. Yes, it can. Because even David, when you say that, you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking, but God, this does not happen.

But while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. And then we receive that and we repent. We've already used that word. And we say, I can't do this on my own, Jesus. I'm surrendering my life to you.

He meets you there and he turns these tragic stories into something. It isn't just that he meets us in our pain. He then says, I want to transform your pain. And then I want to use you to meet others in their pain.

Speaker 2

And I would add, Dave, like, if you haven't talked to God lately, I would just encourage you.

Just tell him the things that you've struggled with, your pain that you're feeling, the feelings that you're having about your family or your kids.

Tell him everything because he cares about you, he loves you, he loves your kids, and he wants to make a difference in your life.

He's right there. Just talk to him.

Speaker 3

This is family life today. We're David Ann Wilson and been talking with David Thomas. But you just heard my wife talk about the most important thing in your life. Prayer it is.

Speaker 2

That's just talking to Jesus about everything.

Speaker 3

You do it all the time.

Speaker 2

Me too, because I'm needy, Dave. I'm needy. But I love David Thomas and the encouragement that he gives us as parents as we raise our boys. His book is called Raising Emotionally Strong Boys. And I think it's just really good and practical.

Speaker 3

So wherever you go. Buy your books. Go get one now. Maybe get a couple.

Speaker 2

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