FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Dave, listen to this.

Speaker 2

All right, here we go. You are always reading stuff out loud to me.

Speaker 1

Yeah. But you're going to love it because this is from a listener.

Speaker 2

Okay.

Speaker 1

They say, this God is amazing. I am regularly blessed by the perspectives and life journeys of the guests and the hosts.

Speaker 2

I like it so far.

Speaker 1

Life is so messy. This podcast is also messy. An episode can be a deep dive into someone's pain and anguish, or it can be a hysterical episode with lots of joking.

I love that there is always something I can apply. I listened to one episode, and they talked about praying over our children daily, and I started right away.

That's from a listener from Family Life Today. Isn't that kind of great?

Speaker 2

That's awesome. I mean, it really is, but maybe next time just text it to me.

Speaker 1

Whatever.

And here's what's also exciting right now. When you give to Family Life and help more people like this listener who can get practical biblical help, your donation is doubled.

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Speaker 2

I tell you what, anything that's doubled, I'm in. And I bet you're thinking the same thing.

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Again, the number is 800F, as in family. L as in life. And then the word Today.

Speaker 3

I hope my kids remember God's word being a comfort in their life, an encouragement in their life, a hopeful thing in their life.

It shouldn't just be the law. This is actually how you're made to work. This is how you flourish.

That's really different than here's the rule so you don't embarrass the family.

Speaker 1

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 2

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylifetoday.com this is Family Life Today. So I'm going to throw a phrase at you. I want you to come back with one word.

Speaker 1

Oh, no, I don't like it when you do this.

Speaker 2

Parenting teenager. Fun, fun, Fun. That's your word.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna say, what would your word be?

Speaker 2

Fun.

Speaker 1

But my second word would be fearful.

Speaker 2

Fun and fearful.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I think that as parents, especially in the culture today, there are a lot of things that we worry about, we think about, we ponder. And there's fear involved in that.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, we're gonna talk about today. We got Melissa Kruger.

Speaker 3

I like the teen years. I'm kind of like you.

Speaker 1

That's fun.

Speaker 3

I really like the te.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we did, too. I mean, a lot of parents, you know, even before our kids were teenagers, were like, oh, boy, wait till you.

Speaker 3

I know.

Speaker 2

We. We loved it.

Speaker 1

We really did. It's really fun getting to know your teens, their thoughts, their ideas.

Speaker 3

Yes. That's how I felt. I was like, all those years of brush your teeth, tie your shoes, you know, whatever you're trying to do. Yes. And then suddenly they can do all these things, and you're actually going to have conversations.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

You know, and I was like, oh, I like talking to you.

Speaker 1

You're fascinated.

Speaker 3

Yes. Rather than. I feel like in the young years, there's just a lot of mundane plotting that's needed, and it's so good.

Speaker 1

And we'll say, too, there's some really annoying things as well with teenagers. We have to say that.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

We're kind of on the other end looking in, which we can say, it's really fun. Some of you are in the midst of that, and you're like, but is it fun?

Speaker 3

Yes. In the transition, I think it sneaks up on you because they were so sweet and cuddly at 9.

Then at 11, you're like, wow, that was an attitude that just walked in the door.

And you're, you know. So as a parent, you're a little bit like, oh, you were just wanting to hold my hand and cuddle with me, and now you don't like me.

Speaker 1

Melissa. Yes. I said this.

Like, one of our boys was so affectionate, like, "Mom, please just lay in bed for a little while and just snuggle up with me."

And then it felt like the next day I was like, "What are you doing? Get out of here."

Yes. And I just walked out and cried.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

Like, oh, yes.

Speaker 3

My son started when I would kiss his cheek, started wiping it off, and I was like, okay.

So, yeah, you have to, like, put offense to the side, like, personal offense aside, because if you take it to heart too much, you know, it would really offend you.

But then I just realized, oh, it's just developmental. Some of this is just developmental. One day they'll want to hug you again.

Speaker 1

We have friends and I. We would say, don't take it personally. Don't take it personally.

Speaker 2

Now, how old are your kids? You and Mike?

Speaker 3

Yes. 24, 21. And getting ready to turn 18.

Speaker 2

You're sad.

Speaker 3

I know.

Speaker 1

And you just had your daughter get married.

Speaker 3

Yes. So that. So that's true. I added one. And let me say, that's a fun way to get an extra kid. Just let him get married.

Speaker 2

Don't have to birth him.

Speaker 3

And so, yeah. And I'm like, and his parents did a wonderful job raising him, so now I get to just enjoy him. And he has been such a great addition, you know, which I'm very thankful for. I know that's not always the case, so I'm really thankful.

Speaker 1

Why this book? And as you talk about raising teens for Christ in a secular age, I think every listener hears that, like, what's the book? What am I? I want to get that Parenting with Hope. Parenting with hope.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I think when I had little kids, what I can remember hearing was kind of what you were saying. Oh, little kids, little problems, big kids, big problems.

And you know when you're like, dealing with being thrown up on and exhausted and you haven't slept in a month, that sounds like. Do I even.

Speaker 1

It's worse than this.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

And it sounds so terrible. And there is some truth to it. When you're dealing with a teen who's experiencing real heartache about something, maybe they're doing things that are harming themselves. I mean, there are real difficulties in the teen years, but I do think it can still be a hopeful season.

What I always like to say to a younger mom is that every season has really good things and every season has really hard things. It's more about embracing what is good in the season and praying through what's hard. But you're going to do that with your two-year-old too, so start doing it here because that's going to be your foundation for handling it in the teen years.

I was a high school teacher, so I taught high school math. I was everybody's favorite subject, right? One thing I realized was that I really had to somehow win these kids over before they would actually learn from me. I taught at a large public school, and I had 150 kids trying to learn algebra one and algebra two.

Speaker 1

Wow.

Speaker 3

And what I realized was they did care. They wanted adult interaction, but they wanted to know I cared about them as a person before they wanted what I was selling, which was algebra 2.

And they're like, why do we need this? But once they understood I actually cared about them as a person, it was amazing. Amazing how that made them so much more receptive to what I was trying to teach them.

Speaker 1

It's the old mantra, rules without relationship, equal rebellion. You're saying, oh, that's the same.

Speaker 3

Good. I haven't heard that. That's good.

Speaker 2

Hey, this is our parenting book.

Speaker 3

You should get it.

Speaker 1

Josh McDowell, isn't that.

Speaker 3

Bring that back. That's good.

Speaker 1

Rules without relationship, equal rebellion.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

But as a teacher, you found the same thing.

Speaker 3

Yes. And. And I was really fortunate. Right. I got to test some theories on other people's children before I got my own. And you do start to see. Cause people will say every child's different. Every child is different. But I would say certain practices work well with a large majority of children.

You would see some teachers whose every class was out of control, didn't matter which kids were in there. You'd see some teachers who seemed to maintain control no matter what kids she taught. When it comes to high school, it's pretty clear. I mean, I'm like, you have to have. Having structure really matters for a classroom environment. Being firm really matters. Having clear guidelines, but also being warm.

And so I talk about this some in the book regarding different parenting styles: authoritarian versus authoritative versus permissive versus absentee. Well, those are actually teaching styles. I learned that in my education classes. Yes. So those categories were how we were taught to teach in a lot of ways. And so I was like, oh, that's really helpful information.

I could apply it to my parenting. But I realized a lot of parents weren't ed majors, so they hadn't heard some of these things. They had no distinction between authoritarian and authoritative. So those were things that really helped me as a teacher, and then they helped as a parent of a teacher.

Speaker 2

Now you've got listeners going, okay, you better explain those.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Because I remember even before we were parents watching Gary Smalley.

Speaker 3

Right, okay.

Speaker 2

Talk about those different styles. And as a young married couple, we're like, which one do we want to do? And which ones have the best results? And which one do we listeners want to know?

Speaker 1

Which one do we naturally lean toward as a personality even.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's a good question. And I think that's good for everyone to ask themselves.

So if just to give a little bit of definition of each of them. Authoritarian tends to be high control. Yeah. I mean, everything you think about authoritarian, high control, low warmth is how they would categorize it a little bit.

Like, because I said so. Yeah, it's that parent.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Permissive tends to be high warmth, low control, no boundaries, whatever. Whatever the child wants is best. And I would say very child-centric. In the wrong way. Child-centric. Whatever the child wants is good. I'm not going to provide any boundaries because that might make that child feel constrained.

You have absentee, which is a new category. Obviously, if you're listening to this, you're probably not in that category because you're trying to parent. So that's someone who's just not around. A lot of kids today have absentee parents. That's a reality.

Authoritative is high warmth with boundaries. I would say authoritative is the type I call that in this book. I call that a shepherd parent. So yes, there are boundaries, yes there are rules, yes there are expectations, but there's also high warmth. There’s a high degree of conversation happening.

And here's what I always like to say: when you're parenting a two-year-old, the way you communicate your rules is very different than when you're parenting a 16-year-old. This is the time to bring them into the why of why you're making these rules and why you're making these decisions. An authoritative parent still kind of parents like a two-year-old.

"Don't do it because I said so." Yeah, that's fine when you have a two-year-old and they're running in the street. I actually am fine. I don't need to explain to you all the reasons I don't want you running in the street at two. "Don't run in the street." You're going to get in trouble if you do that again.

At 16, that's not normally a great model for kids, for parents, because typically that's when they start wanting to rebel.

Speaker 1

Are thinking, they're, they're wondering why, why can I?

Speaker 3

Yes, exactly. And so authoritative parents are trying to engage them in that conversation. And here's what I will say. I think permissive and authoritarian are both rooted in fear. The authoritarian fears losing control, the permissive fears losing relationship. Both are based in fear.

Whereas I think authoritative requires a lot of faith. I can't force you to even stay in my boundaries and there's an acknowledgement of that, but I'm going to keep putting them forth. But I'm going to make sure no matter what, you know I love you. I'm going to always come at this with warmth. I'm going to want to understand you as a person, even if you're questioning faith, even if you're walking away, I'm going to want to understand you, not just control you, because it makes me look bad.

So I think authoritarian parents often want to control because they're worried about how the family looks rather than how the child is doing, you know, and that's all of our temptations.

Speaker 2

What was that? Sigh.

Speaker 1

Because I think we do care what others think of us without. I would have said as my kids were becoming teens.

Yeah, of course, it's all about Jesus. But remember, I've shared the story.

Melissa, I have to tell you this because it's such a bad parenting moment of teens.

Speaker 3

I've got plenty of those.

Speaker 1

Our oldest was 14, and we were at this big gathering. It was like all of our friends and families were together, and we were about to eat. We had a potluck kind of thing, and there were probably 50 of us in this house. It was just jam-packed.

Somebody then said, "Well, let's pray." We had kids ranging from 2 years old up to 15 years old, and my son was one of the oldest.

Speaker 2

No, he's your son on this day.

Speaker 1

And we're about to pray.

Speaker 2

He's what, 14?

Speaker 1

Yeah, he's 14. And he says, this food looks like. Can I say that on the radio?

Speaker 2

I'll just say he didn't curse, but he said a word like poop.

Speaker 3

Okay.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

He says it so loud. And everybody, this is right before we pray. So it's pure silence. And so as a mom, I give him the evil eye, you know what I mean? Like, oh, oh.

And then something else happens where we're walking out to the car and he yells in front of everybody, I have to do everything in this family. And so now, like, I'm so hot.

And we're walking out and now we're going home. We're walking into the car and I'm right in his ear, you know, like, that was so disrespectful.

Speaker 2

These are all our church people too.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah, Dave, we're the pastor.

Speaker 2

I'm the pastor's life.

Speaker 1

And so we get to the car and there's a big snow bank. It's Michigan winter. He gets in the car, but he gets off balance. He slips on this ice. I just nudge him with my shoulder, and he falls into this huge snow bank. I get in the car and lock all the doors.

Then he's pounding on the window like, "Mom, what are you doing? Let me in." And then Dave comes up, you know, oh, the pastor's here. Dave's like, "What are you doing?" So he gets in the car.

At that moment, I cry and tell Dave I will never, ever talk about parenting because I have no idea what I'm doing. But when it came down to it, I was embarrassed and fearful of what everyone was thinking about me.

Speaker 3

It's so true. And it is. It's really hard.

Like in that moment, it is really hard because especially as a pastor's family, I mean, you know, everyone's looking at every decision you make.

It's not just even in those moments, but they're looking, oh, well, the Kruger family lets their kids do this.

Speaker 1

And I'm like, go to that movie.

Speaker 3

It's not a statement. Yeah, Kruger family might not be what your family should do, you know, but you do feel this pressure. Like, okay, yeah, we did watch that show or do things, but it might not be right for your kid.

Speaker 2

Right.

Speaker 3

But yeah, you feel kind of in the fishbowl.

Speaker 1

So what should. As our listeners are hearing those words, what would be a good. Like, should they talk about that with their spouse? If they're married? Should they figure out, what have I been doing?

Speaker 3

Yeah, I think it's really good to ask each other because here's the reality. I think we're most likely to parent how our parents parented.

And you often see one parent go to permissive and one go to authoritarian. It's almost like they're trying to counterbalance the other.

Speaker 1

Good cat, bad cat.

Speaker 3

Yes, yes. And some of that's the environment they grew up in.

So I think it's actually good to self-reflect and say, what type of home did I grow up in? Did we lean more towards rules? Did we lean more toward permissive?

You know, what type of environment was it? Because that's going to help you actually realize, why am I defaulting to one style?

Speaker 1

What were you.

Speaker 3

You know, my mom was a teacher, so I can really say my parents were really good. They were. They were definitely in the authoritative category.

I mean, they had boundaries, but not. I don't even remember many rules as a high school kid because at that point we just had a lot of conversations.

Oh, it's prom.

Speaker 1

Well, why don't.

Speaker 3

What time would be reasonable to get back? You know, we'd have a conversation about it. It wasn't like there were these strict rules. They did have some rules, but not a lot. But I'll say this too: my brother and I were not pushing many boundaries. I mean, to be fair, we were pretty in-the-box type kids.

Some of that, I think, was how they were parenting. You know, I didn't feel the need to push against a lot of their rules because they didn't give us a lot of them. But we had conversations, like, "Hey, what would be reasonable? What would be a good idea? What do you think is okay?" And we'd have that conversation. So I think they really leaned toward that.

My mom, again, was a teacher, so I think she had some of these categories in mind. I can still remember as a young kid, she would always give two choices that made me feel like I was in control of making the choice. But really, they were both acceptable to her. "Would you like the banana or the apple?"

Speaker 1

So you had a choice.

Speaker 3

Yes. And I learned that parenting trick from her. I was like, that's really good.

Speaker 1

Especially with strong willed kids.

Speaker 3

Yes. Because it makes the kid feel like they're choosing, but you're really choosing the outcome. And so that's okay. Those are great ways to do it. You're still the one actually who's in control. You're still being the parent, but you're giving them the opportunity to make choices.

I think that's really important because these kids are getting ready to launch. They’ve got to start learning how to make some of these choices for themselves, or else they're going to get off to college. What we don't want to see is, oh, now that mom and dad are gone, I'm making every choice I want to make that they wouldn't let me make.

What we're hoping to teach in these years is that these years are so vital to try to show them that God's word is actually for their good, not to keep them from good. If we're always using it as only the rule, rather than, oh, I hope my kids remember God's word being a comfort in their life, an encouragement in their life, a hopeful thing in their life, it shouldn't just be the law.

Yeah. What does Psalm 19 say? The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the Lord are trustworthy, making wise the simple. The precepts of the Lord are right, giving joy to the heart. We want to be communicating that as we're even giving boundaries, that this is actually how you're made to work. This is how you flourish. That's really different than just saying, here's the rule so you don't embarrass the family.

Speaker 2

You know, as you think through those different styles, it feels like just an observation. A lot of our kids now, next generation, parent with more permissive.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

Like the self-esteem of their children is the number one goal. And so you never want to hurt; there's good in it because they're really thinking a lot about what we didn't think about.

Self-esteem is really important. I don't want to give a lot of "no's" because I just... But it's... There's like no boundaries.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

And so you watch this and you're like, I don't think that. And even as you read in your book, permissive doesn't usually get good results.

Speaker 3

It doesn't either. Both of those tend to have negative outcomes on our teens. And, you know, it is interesting how culture changes. I definitely grew up in the parenting style where, I mean, from the moment they came out, you were to watch their sleep schedule, their eat schedule. You were to be in control. I mean, that was the way the pendulum was swinging.

It definitely seems to be swinging in some different ways right now. And I do want to say to parents, and I saw this as a teacher, boundaries matter. I remember one of my high school kids coming up to me and he said, "I can tell. Ms. So and so doesn't care about us at all."

I asked, "Why do you say that?" He goes, "She doesn't keep our class under control. She just lets us do whatever we want. She didn't care about us."

Speaker 1

Wow.

Speaker 3

He, at 17, could already see that the teacher, by having an unruly classroom, was actually communicating. "I don't care what you do." And, you know, whereas structure and boundaries actually communicate, "Hey, you're worth something. You matter. And I'm going to show you how you work best."

Just like, I mean, think about it. We do this in every way with our kids, right? We make them brush their teeth. Why? Because we care about them. It's not, you know, to give them some rule. It's because your teeth are going to rot out if you don't do this. If you don't do this, it's not going to go well for you.

So, boundaries are really for their good. We're helping them when they don't yet have the life experience to know, "Hey, that's not a good choice to drink and drive." They don't have the life experience to understand what that might lead to. We all do.

As parents, it's our responsibility to create the right boundaries to help them figure out how to navigate these decisions in this world. And so, fear that my kid might not like me? We have to be okay with not being liked by our kids. Every parent is going to face that.

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah, for sure. And let me just say, this kind of content that we're talking about today is unbelievable. I mean, we wish we would've had this when we were young parents raising kids.

And what a lot of people listening to our program don't know is, this program is supported by our listeners. And this is December, this is year end. So this is a critical time, as you know, for any ministry.

So I'm just going to pause and say, man, if you love what we're doing and this is a blessing to you, please be a blessing to us by sending a gift into Family Life. You can do that at familylifetoday.com or you can call us; people actually call us, and it's awesome. 1-800-358-6329. That's 800-F, as in family, L as in life, and the word today.

And it would be such a blessing, I mean, to be able to do this kind of stuff. Here's my question for you, Melissa. I mean, you've got an 18-year-old still.

Speaker 1

Almost 18.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So you still have one. Every time we say, you know, 18, you're like, I'm so sad they're gonna be gone. I'm telling you, Empty Nest is incredible. It's awesome. But it's also sad.

Speaker 1

He looks at me because he was, like, pumped out of his mind. Like, this is amazing. And I'm like, like I'm grieving and lamenting. It's like a phase of life that I love.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yes.

Speaker 2

Yeah. But my thought is, you know, we started the program saying we, all three of us love the teen years. There are parents listening that are.

No. I mean, even on your book, I love it. Parenting light with hope dark. And it's both. Some are in the light and enjoying it. Some are like, it's hard. My kids are making decisions. We're yelling. It's, you know, they're not obeying.

So what would you say to that parent that's listening right now, like, okay, I'm not where you guys are. I want to be where you are?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

They feel hopeless. Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I never want to treat it lightly because these years can be full of so much hard. I mean, I have different friends walking through every level of hard. We have cried a lot of tears. We have prayed a ton of prayers for kids going through stuff that is so painful and so painful for the child, but so painful for the parent.

And so what I always like to say on that topic is I think what we, the object of our hope is what matters. So my hope in this season is actually not that my kids are okay or even that they're kind of fitting into the mold of what I hope for their life. My hope is placed in the fact that we serve a God who actually cares more about them than I do. He's the one person who cares about their spiritual development way more than I do, but that he's always at work in everything that's happening.

That has been my anchor in whatever season of parenting I've been in, is to put my hope firmly in Christ and his ability to redeem whatever is hard and dark and bad. So I can hold onto that no matter what my child's walking through. And that has been the anchor that has helped me fast when I walk through difficult things with my kids.

Nothing is wasted. We look at some of the choices they're making and they feel so painful and they feel so heavy. Kids who are doubting the faith, walking away from the faith, walking in complete opposition to the things of Scripture. And we know it's not good for them.

Speaker 1

And they're saying things about their sexuality that we are freaking out about.

Speaker 3

Yes. And I think at that moment, it's really important to remember I can't change their behavior.

Speaker 1

Oh, it's awful.

Speaker 3

I can't change what they think about God. I am completely powerless. But I serve a God who is powerful. And so it drives us back to our knees. It drives us back to Scripture.

I think sometimes what the mistake we make as parents of teens is thinking, if I get angry enough, it's going to fix them. Now when we really think about that, we know that is not the way to do it. It's his kindness that leads us to repentance.

Rather, we are called to walk with them through their doubts, through their unbelief, through their rebellion. We walk with them always holding out the gospel to them. They're never too far gone to return. We keep saying that over and over and over again. We keep praying for them. But the Spirit has to awaken their hearts.

Speaker 1

And I would add, too, Melissa, I know that you'll agree with me. This is when, for me personally, when my walk with Jesus got even deeper because I became so desperate. Because as a parent, when you're lying in bed at night with fear of what could happen, and I don't know what you're like and what our listeners are like, but I can tend to go on this trail into the incredibly negative outcome of what all this could mean and what could happen. And it does no good.

And so I started learning to take my thoughts captive. I started memorizing more scripture than I ever had. That's when I started reading the Bible through every single year because I needed to replace my fearful thoughts with godly thoughts. And that part of just surrendering them daily, begging God. We're fasting and praying for our kids because you can tell when they're not in a great spot. Our kids have been in those spots where you're so fearful you don't know what's going to happen.

I would also add, and we're going to talk about more on this topic, and you've talked about this too, friendships where we're praying together for our kids. I need somebody else to shoulder this with me besides Dave and Jesus, but a girlfriend, that's like, how are they doing? How are you doing? What's going on? We have a Father that hears every one of our fears, sees every tear, and he's there right with us.

Speaker 2

This is Family Life Today, and we're David and Ann Wilson. We've been talking with Melissa Kruger about her book called *Parenting with Hope*, a really great book.

You can get a copy at familylifetoday.com or give us a call at 1-800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today.

Speaker 1

And as Dave mentioned earlier, this is really a critical time to donate as we've had some friends of the ministry come alongside us to provide that match.

Speaker 2

Program up to two and a half million dollars. That's a lot.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And that means your gift is doubled, so your fifty dollar gift becomes a hundred dollars and so on. But it's only during this time of year. So we would love you to partner with us.

You can just go to familylifetoday.com and become a financial partner with Family Life. Or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today.

Now coming up tomorrow, we're going to talk to Melissa Kruger again, which I'm so excited about as we talk about teens. That's coming up tomorrow. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today.

Speaker 2

Family Life today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.