FamilyLife Today®

Jim Burns: A lot of our adult kids who are straying, what they don't want us is blabbing at every place. So, I don't I don't think we, you know, put it on the social media feed. Please pray for Cindy. She just moved in with her boyfriend. I don't think you do that. I think we have to make sure is this going to help

Ann Wilson: Exactly.

Jim Burns: my relationship with my adult child. But at the same time, the adult child needs to know that I'm building my own circle of support that's going to have to help me through this process because I want to be a better parent.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: Exactly.

Jim Burns: And you can be a good parent with a child who's violating values and straying from faith and not agree with them. This is the thing. People think, well, should I shun my child because they're doing this ungodly thing? And I'm saying, no. Stay in the story. But for us to stay in the story, we need the help.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Anne Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today. We've got Jim Burns in the studio talking. Look at this title. When your adult child strays, trading heartache for hope. Boom, sounds like a fun day.

Ann Wilson: Every listener just said, wait, wait, wait. Say it again. We're talking about adult children that stray. This is a huge topic. When we're talking to friends, this is something that people are like, tell me, help me, give me answers and hope.

Jim Burns: Right.

Ann Wilson: So, we've got the expert.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Jim Burns, it's been decades.

Jim Burns: It's been a long time.

Dave Wilson: Maybe since you've been on here.

Jim Burns: Yeah, great to be with you though.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, well, the topic we're talking about, you know, you're going to be on the Love Like You Mean It cruise this year talking about this.

Jim Burns: Yes, excited to be there. Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, and years ago, Bob Lepine and and Anne and I did a workshop

Jim Burns: Well.

Dave Wilson: for adult parents of adult kids. And it wasn't really when they strayed. It was just like, let's talk about how do you, which is obviously a big topic.

Ann Wilson: Well. And you've written about that, too.

Jim Burns: Yes.

Dave Wilson: You've written about everything. I mean, you got so many books about everything. But let me tell you this. First of all, we got there and they were like, uh, we need a bigger room cuz there's so many people. So, we got a bigger room and then we did an open mic

Ann Wilson: That have signed up. Yeah.

Dave Wilson: at the end Q&A. And you know what we heard.

Jim Burns: Yeah. Right. Right.

Dave Wilson: It was Well, you said right here, heartache.

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: And so, why did you decide to write about that?

Jim Burns: Well, I actually wrote only out of the need because I wrote a book called When Your Adult Child Strays This Time. But the time before, I was just talking about doing life with your adult children. Keep your mouth shut. The welcome mat out pretty much tells you the whole story.

Dave Wilson: You know how many times I've used that line?

Ann Wilson: We have We have given that book to so many people.

Jim Burns: Thousands of times. Right. Oh my goodness. Well, what happened was there was only six pages on When Your Adult Child Strays.

Dave Wilson: Mm.

Ann Wilson: Oh.

Jim Burns: But all the questions I didn't realize I would spend the rest of my life answering questions with deep heartache, deep confusion, estrangement, deconstruction of their faith, violating values, disagreements on politics. I mean, anything. So, when you do the open mic, it's people are just willing to talk about it, too. And then some whisper because they feel so much shame and pain. But the pain is deep and they wear it everywhere. And it affects their marriages. It affects their life. It affects their spiritual life. It's the topic that they can't get past.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Jim Burns: And so, I finally said, you know what? It is time to to face this. And I didn't really want to cuz I like to write fun books. And this isn't a fun book. This is maybe one of the harder books because it has uh, it has a connection to the soul. And, you know, Kathy and I we don't think we did it all right. We have three daughters. Of course, we've had no hormones or drama in our life, of course.

Dave Wilson: Right. Yeah. Yeah, none. Zero.

Jim Burns: Well, but, you know, our kids bumped. They came back. They're great kids now. So, we don't have that deep pain. But we also in we cancel each other's votes out. Um, one goes to a church that we wouldn't go to. You know, those kind of things. So, we get frustrated. But we've had to learn how to deal with with it. And when they started, you know, violating some of our values, straying from our faith, that became very disturbing to us.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Mm. Yeah, and and do you think it's uh, more prevalent today than it was 20 years ago or is it always been?

Jim Burns: I think it is because you see the when you look at statistics, you see more kids are walking away. For example, Gen Z, two amazing tracks. One is Gen Z's coming back to church. I mean, I'm so excited. Yay, yay, yay. That's amazing. Same time, there's twice as many atheists with Gen Z as even the millennials, which would be the next crowd. So, you're seeing both things happening at the same time, which a lot of times when there's renewal and revival, that does happen to be honest with you. But in this case, I focused on the ones who are kind of walking away, straying.

Some of them do it very strong and very deliberate and they're very angry or they're angry at the church or they're angry at their parents. And others just sort of drift away.

Ann Wilson: Which is cool. Me, too. Oh. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: I think especially after COVID,

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: people just got out of the habit of going to church and that just became a habit and I've talked to so many parents that even adults that aren't going back.

Jim Burns: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Oh, exactly. No, I I I know. I I there's a very close person in my life. He goes, it's just so much more comfortable. Remember we could sit and watch and we'd drink coffee and I have my little, you know, slippers and I'm doing that. I said, well, don't you miss the community? He said, that's what I miss. And we see kids who are straying from their faith, adult kids. They're coming back because of community, you know. Dave, no offense, it's not the preaching all the time. It's the community. They want

Dave Wilson: No, it's the preaching, Jim. It's always the preaching.

Jim Burns: I'm there for preaching, okay? But I'm an old guy. But they come back you know, for that community. But no, COVID hurt us and and many churches have not bounced back.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Jim Burns: Some of them.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: And Jim, you talk to all these parents. If you go deeper, what are they saying about themselves?

Jim Burns: Yeah. Well, I think they feel a lot of shame. They say if only we would have prayed more as a family. If only we would have, you know, let the kids go to that mission trip instead of the vacation. If only And they play the if only game. And a lot of it is blaming themselves. And parents are not defined by their adult kids' poor choices.

Ann Wilson: It's so hard not to do that though.

Jim Burns: And No, I know. I know. And you know, and Kathy and I did that when our kids, you know, did this little bump, we were like, oh, wow, you know, we should have prayed more. I thought we actually prayed, okay? And it still didn't There was still this moment, right? But they they feel so much guilt upon themselves and they lay it on themselves. And some people don't feel comfortable talking. We 're talking about open mic. Well, they will. They're at an event. But some suffer in silence and think they're the only people in the church who have kids who have strayed when in fact, it's frankly almost a majority have a kid who has somehow violated violated their values.

Ann Wilson: What did we do wrong? Yeah. Wow. That's a lot.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. I mean, so those parents that are wrestling with it, maybe in silence, what do you encourage them to do? Do they need to talk?

Jim Burns: Yeah. Yeah. Well, they they do. And I call it In the book, I I talk about their circle of support. So, circle of support, that doesn't just happen. You have to lean into that. So, like for Kathy and I, we weren't raised in the church. So, we didn't have the whole Christian background stuff going and so we knew pretty immediately we needed mentors. We needed mentors for our marriage. We needed mentors for parenting. We needed mentors for our spiritual life, you know, whatever. So, we still have those. And like I was thinking about Terry and Sharon the other day who are some mentors of us and they have taught us how to be parents of adult children and they've taught us how to be really good grandparents.

And you know what? They don't even say, oh, we're Jim and Kathy's mentors. We just needed that. But we need peer support. So, I've been in a small group for 25 years. Same small group.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Can be intentional. Yeah, I read in the book and I'm like, we're clones. I have a group that's been that many years, too. And they are my life.

Jim Burns: Yeah. Yeah. Do you? No, they are. I'm I'm a better husband, better father. I'm sure you are, too. But that's the point. We need counsel. The Bible says very clearly, where there is no counsel, the people fall. In the multitude of counselors there is safety. And for us, we have found that the church is a part of our circle of support. So, you know, our church service last week, it was just awesome. And I hadn't seen my daughter there and we usually go to the same service. We have five services. And I called her and said, hey, you got to go.

It's just It's just amazing. She goes, I was there. I go, oh, I didn't see you. But the point being is that's a place for us to have community. Kathy walked out and she said, I just love the people we talked to today. You know, we love the service. We love the message. We love the worship. So, that is a part of our circle of support. What we did was we kind of had to point out, we need the circle of support if we're going to get through it. So, when our daughter, who's now amazing, but during a rougher spot was I going to go tell my small group of guys while she's messing up because I'm their kind of like mentor when it comes to parenting.

They've read my books, right? And um, no, I did. Guess what I got? I got grace and love and understanding and that happened to my son and, you know, hang in there and what can we pray for you for? You know, most people don't have that. 12 and 1/2% of the population this just came out say that they don't have one best friend. So, we need people around us.

Dave Wilson: Right. Oh, it's

Jim Burns: And especially men.

Ann Wilson: Dave, I remember you going to uh, pheasant hunt and you came back home. You had all these men who a lot of them had adult kids, adult sons. But I remember you saying, wow, that was the most rich time.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. And by the way, these were men I didn't know. I've got my guys in Detroit. We've sort of raised our kids together.

Jim Burns: Right. Yeah.

Dave Wilson: But these are guys Yeah. that were uh, donors to Family Life. And so, it was a Dennis Rainey pheasant hunt.

Jim Burns: Right. Yeah.

Dave Wilson: I am not a hunter. So, I'm like, what am I doing? But I just went in in it was just a weekend. But on Saturday night or Friday night after we sort of got to know each other, it says, let's just talk.

Jim Burns: Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Dave Wilson: And I think 85 to 90% of the room had adult children issues. And they were

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: weeping.

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: And they It was so beautiful to watch. We've been together 48 hours and there's a bond here.

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: And praying over them and staying in touch after

Jim Burns: A vulnerable

Dave Wilson: but that community piece is so needed. And so many don't have it.

Jim Burns: It is. No, you're right. And we need to share our weaknesses. And again, you and I have you know, we're talking about a great support system. And that has helped us. I am a better person for being in that. But a lot of people don't have that support system. And it doesn't have to be a group of so many men or so many women. But Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. what we have to figure out is how do we develop that? And I think the church is a good place to start. I really do because I think the church today is is healthier.

The church today says we don't have to act like we have it all together. And they're doing life together and that's what we need. When our kids stray, when our kids violate our values, it doesn't change

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yeah.

Jim Burns: the kids. It changes us.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

Ann Wilson: But Jim, is there a violation there of our kids' trust when we share what's going? How do you navigate that as a parent?

Jim Burns: No, I I think you have to be careful because what a lot of our adult kids who are straying, what they don't want us is blabbing at every place. So, I don't I don't think we, you know, put it on the social media feed. Please pray for Cindy. She just moved in with her boyfriend. I don't think you do that. I really don't.

Dave Wilson: Exactly. Mm. Yeah.

Ann Wilson: But you're saying there's a select group of people that you trust.

Jim Burns: Yeah. Right. Right. And eventually even with Rebecca, I said, hey, by the way, you know some of the struggles that that you are having, I actually went and talked to my guys about that and I hope you I trust them with my life and Sharon's guy, I trust them with your my life. So, she was grateful for that to be honest. But I don't think we should violate that by blabbing it to everybody. I really don't. I think we have to make sure, is this going to help

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Burns: my relationship with my adult child. But at the same time, the adult child needs to know that I am building my own circle of support that is going to have to help me through this process because I want to be a better parent.

Ann Wilson: Exactly.

Jim Burns: And you can be a good parent with a child who's violating values and straying from faith and not agree with them. This is the thing. People think, well, should I shun my child because they're doing this ungodly thing? And I am saying, no. Stay in the story. But for us to stay in the story, we need the help.

Dave Wilson: Mm.

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: We've traveled around the world and I'm always amazed that families around the world bring incredible joy and impact. But they also really struggle with the same issues. But families make a difference in the world, like a family centered on Jesus impacts everyone.

Dave Wilson: That's why we do what we do. Every single day, we're trying to help marriages and families here, there, around the world find Jesus as the center of their marriage and find hope. And then not just see their marriage transformed, but transform their neighborhood. And let me invite you to join us in this mission. What's that mean? Pray for us. We need your prayers. But also, I don't know if you know this, but this ministry is a donor-supported ministry. In other words, people give financially to make this happen. And we would love to have you as a partner.

Ann Wilson: Because we can't exist without you, without monthly partners reaching families for Jesus.

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Ann Wilson: This is Family Life Today and we're talking to Jim Burns. Let's get back to that conversation.

Dave Wilson: What do you say to a parent whose child has And by the way, define stray.

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: What do you mean stray?

Jim Burns: Well, just means that they're not living with our faith values or they're not living with the same values and morals that we lived with. And so they've stray could mean they've made a hard right turn and it they're going totally against and that they've now, you know, changed their gender, changed all kinds of stuff. They're smoking pot every day or they're drug addicts or whatever it might be. They're in prison. They could do terrible Or it could mean just drifting.

Dave Wilson: Mm.

Jim Burns: It really encompasses a a lot. But it just means they're not like it was when we were you know, when the kids were going to Sunday school.

Ann Wilson: But I mean, I talked to so many friends and people like even kids living with their girlfriend, boyfriend. Like that's such a common thing and it's such an awkward

Jim Burns: Yeah. Right.

Ann Wilson: place for parents even say, oh yeah, they're living there. Then you see this face of shame.

Jim Burns: No, no, it's the shame. You're You 're right. You know, what I say to people, like a woman said to me, her daughter had moved in with the boyfriend at 19, lived in California where we live, going to school in Georgia. And she the shame and the guilt and they'd flown out there and had this big conversation. And she said, it's all I think about. It's all I talk about to her.

Ann Wilson: Oh.

Jim Burns: And I said, well, does she know what you believe? Yes. Does she know how you feel? Well, yes. Then you're going to have to broaden the relationship cuz this relationship doesn't sound like it's going to work. So, when it falls and fails, will she come to you as a safe person? She knows what you believe. She knows what you feel. She knows the pain that she's causing you. You don't have to keep, you know, being a one-topic parent.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. You've said it one time. She doesn't need to hear it every time you're together.

Jim Burns: No, no, exactly. So, she goes, what do I do with that? And I go, well, what does she like to do? She likes to shop, which I laughed because I have three daughters. So, for some reason they like to, too. I said, well, take her shopping. You know, don't even bring it up at this point, at least in the preachy luxury way. And she goes, that is the hardest thing. I said, well, I have scars on my tongue because I've had to

Ann Wilson: I laughed so hard when I read that in your book.

Jim Burns: I 've had to bite my tongue many times. But you That's what you do. Yeah. We We don't have to walk on eggshells. And I think some parents hear that and they think, oh, well then, you know, we can't be ourselves. No, you can be yourselves. But don't lay that on them at this point because you want to be that welcoming, safe person. Who's the safest person in the room? It's the person who shows love.

Ann Wilson: All of us have.

Jim Burns: Jesus led with love when it was, you know, a prostitute, when it was a tax collector. We don't understand the tax collector how bad that was today. But from the context of the scripture, Jesus still led with love. He didn't compromise his values.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Right.

Jim Burns: So, I believe it's possible to not compromise your values, compromise your biblical values and at the same time show a lot of love. And that means if they're living with somebody and they have a baby, then you be the kind of grandma that's amazing and you win them that way. You're not going to win them by saying, you're wrong and I'm right and, you know,

Dave Wilson: They'll do this your whole life.

Jim Burns: Exactly. And you probably are right. That's just it. But don't keep pushing that.

Ann Wilson: Our kids are amazing. We've all made mistakes. Dave and I have made mistakes. But I want to say it's so bad. I want to say it. I'm like, don't you see I could help your whole life and to bite you?

Dave Wilson: Especially me. Yeah. I'm literally hitting her under the dinner table.

Ann Wilson: No, and I'm not saying it. He can see like I want to say it. We have this thought like this will change everything. Oh, mom, thank you. I've never heard you say that before.

Jim Burns: Right. Right. That's such a good

Ann Wilson: But that part of allowing God to have that I mean, I'm I love your principle number one in your book. You're fired. Your role as the parent must change.

Jim Burns: Yeah. Change. No, exactly.

Ann Wilson: Man, that's so true.

Dave Wilson: Well, you know, essentially when you're talking about Jesus with tax collectors and sinners, I mean, it's all over the place but Luke 15 where he's having a meal and it's this amazing passage about God's heart for the lost sheep and the lost son.

Jim Burns: Yeah. Right. Right.

Dave Wilson: But when I preach that, I say this. I go, do you realize that because they're having a meal together, they liked him?

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: They knew he disagreed. They liked him. And I'm like, do people like you, non-Christians far from God? Do they like hanging around you as a Christian? Probably not. They feel judged for

Jim Burns: Right. Right.

Dave Wilson: Same thing with our kids. You know, they know what we believe. Do they like being at our table or do they feel like it's always the one-topic parent and they're going to come after me?

Jim Burns: Right. Yeah. No. No. No. You You're exactly right. And uh, you know, we didn't have fun with our kids. You know, I did my PhD in Traits of a Healthy Family. And one of the traits was on fun. And you know, funny enough, I didn't get it from Christian uh, research. I got it from the secular world. And it was always one of the top things, playing together, having fun together. What I've said to people is sometimes it's better instead of preaching at them and lecturing them, go on a fishing trip with the boys. Go on a some kind of a fun trip, you know, with the girl.

And just enjoy, laugh, giggle, whatever. And it brings you back together.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. It's bonding.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Jim Burns: It is. Then they feel more safe and they feel more, you know, open, you know, to doing something like that.

Ann Wilson: Yeah. I remember talking to one of our guests and she was talking about her mom and she was straying. She was doing things wrong. But she said, even in the midst of that, there was not one time that when my mom looked at me, she didn't look at me with delight in her eyes.

Jim Burns: Oh.

Ann Wilson: And I remember stopping right there and thinking, that's a big deal.

Jim Burns: Oh, that is.

Ann Wilson: As a teenage girl, she still felt like my mom delights in me. And I think that joy, that delight

Jim Burns: Right.

Ann Wilson: our kids feel it when they're around us.

Jim Burns: No. No, they do. You know what? I I just got goosebumps. I don't know if you can with your bald I had a bald head. I don't I kind of felt the goosebumps because that is so critical. And show delight, show the love. And it's hard cuz you're mad and you're frustrated and you're upset and you're worried. Yeah, you're scared for them. We're playing this movie forward is not going to go well, things like that. The bottom line is this, when they've strayed and when they've fallen away from stuff, the bottom line is, do you still love me?

Ann Wilson: Delight. Mm. You're scared. Yeah.

Jim Burns: That's the question that each adult child is saying. That's the question every child is saying.

Ann Wilson: We all say that.

Jim Burns: Sure. Sure. Do you still love me? And And I think you know, that probably you were talking about the, you know, Luke 15 chapter, Dave, where the prodigal son is coming in and the you know, the the father welcomed him.

Ann Wilson: Mm. Yeah.

Jim Burns: And the son was probably saying, do you still love me? Now, notice in that story cuz this is a part of the straying with faith story too.

Dave Wilson: Right. Right. Right.

Jim Burns: He strayed from faith, definitely. Big big big big big time. He's feeding the pigs and he was Jewish. That's not a good thing.

Dave Wilson: That's an adult son. Yeah.

Jim Burns: Right. So, he comes back but the elder son is mad.

Dave Wilson: Yep.

Jim Burns: But notice what the father said. He said to the elder son, all that I have is yours. He didn't change the the consequences. The consequences, he'd already given his younger son the money. So, he didn't change the consequences but he said, you know, the son of mine was lost and now he's found.

Dave Wilson: Mm. Yeah.

Jim Burns: So, what we miss on that is tough love means you allow them to experience the circumstances in a negative way that they've lived without. The consequences, sure.

Dave Wilson: The consequences. Right.

Jim Burns: But you allowed them to experience that but you can still show love. I'm so sorry that I'm not going to give you anymore money cuz I already gave you half of my inheritance.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Jim Burns: But you're my son and I love you. That's how we bring people back, I think, much more than by telling them how wrong they are and how right we are.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, or keep giving them cuz we want them to love us. So, you know what? I told you I wouldn't give you anymore money but here's more hoping that you'll change.

Jim Burns: Oh. Yeah. Well, let's talk about that a little bit.

Ann Wilson: Well, let's talk about that a little bit.

Jim Burns: Well, you got to ask, are you enabling dependency on you or or helping? Helping, you can help. Help your kids. I mean, we just helped our daughter get into a house um, in a small way and how beautiful that was. Yeah, you just you do that. Okay, that's helping. But if we continued to make the payments as adults with, you know, her and her husband and the two grandkids, that's enabling.

Ann Wilson: We did the same thing.

Jim Burns: I was talking with a guy who um, whose son had a heroin problem. And this man was a very wealthy man. And he said, my son, I've put a uh, something on his car and I know where he goes and he goes into Los Angeles where nearby where we live and that's where he gets his drugs. And I don't know how he pays for it because he you know, he doesn't have a job. I said, well, did you give him an allowance? And he said, yeah. Pretty good allowance. I said, well, that's where he's getting his You're paying for his drugs.

And this man was almost violently angry at me for saying that. He said, I am not, you know, buying his drugs. And his wife kind of put her hand on his hand and kind of went, you know, maybe we are. Well, what what what happened was they were enabling this son by by giving him so much money cuz the son And the son was spending it on heroin.

Dave Wilson: That's how he pays for it. Yeah. Yeah.

Jim Burns: So, what we have to understand is we're not helping when we enable. If we enable our kids, they become entitled and there's a failure to launch. When there's a failure to launch, a lot of times kids who have a failure to launch also we find that a lot of the failure to launchers are the strayers or the ones who are kind of falling away, too. And but they're dependent on mom and dad. So, that's the other side of it. We were talking about one way, don't give in. But then we some of us just kind of keep enabling.

That doesn't work. It doesn't work if they're addicted to drugs. It doesn't work if they're um, struggling with some immoral issue. It just We can't keep enabling them.

Ann Wilson: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: Yeah, I mean, that's got to be one of the hardest things to do. I mean, change the locks on your door.

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Dave Wilson: You know, if they are destroying your house and wrecking I mean, it's like I that I mean, how do you do that as a parent?

Ann Wilson: Oh. It's so hard.

Jim Burns: No, it's hard.

Dave Wilson: You got to do it.

Ann Wilson: That's where you need community. You need people who will stand counseling and

Jim Burns: You got to think. But Yeah, that's where you And you need counsel and because you've got to learn, how will this make it better if I change the locks? To be honest, it gets so bad in some situations where you need to. They stole from you. They You know, they were coming in and doing things.

Ann Wilson: Yep. Your life's in danger.

Jim Burns: Right. Well, we talk about it in the book. We talk about some of the things when it's really really bad.

Dave Wilson: Yeah.

Jim Burns: With that, we have to make sure though that we're getting the advice and counsel from people who know what they're talking about cuz there's some crazies out there. If you If you look at estrangement right now, 27% of the population has a family member who's estranged. And today there's a whole group of even people in in therapy who are saying, estrangement is a really good thing. Now, when there's sexual abuse and all that, there there has to be a break for a break.

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.

Ann Wilson: Jim, we've talked to so many people that are experiencing that both the parental side

Jim Burns: Yeah.

Ann Wilson: where the parents aren't allowed to see the grandkids or the kids. But also, we're talking to the kids. They're like, I can't be around my parents and they're not allowed to be around my kids. I know you're seeing that all the time, too.

Jim Burns: Right. Yeah. Right. All the time. I would say every time I speak on it, there's somebody wanders up. You know, and I always hope for the best. I'm in a group and I go, wait, these people don't have these issues. And then they You see this at church, too. We took our kids to our grandkids to church against their will and we just thought that's what the Lord was leading us to do. And I'm saying, well, maybe you we need to listen harder cuz you probably need to honor your kids

Dave Wilson: Yeah. Yeah. Mm.

Jim Burns: even though you don't agree with them.

Ann Wilson: Yep.

Jim Burns: And that's a tough one.

Dave Wilson: Man oh man, is that a great conversation with Jim Burns.

Ann Wilson: He always brings incredible wisdom. I walk away thinking, I need to do some things better. Do you feel like that?

Dave Wilson: Yeah, this this is a program you're going to want to share with a lot of people. And we got two more days with them. And by the way, his book again is called When Your Adult Child Strays. You can get it at familylifetoday.com. Just click on the link in the show notes. And guess what? Tomorrow we're going to invite Ron Deal who directs our blended ministry here at Family Life to join this conversation. So, again, you don't want to miss it. We'll see you tomorrow.

Ann Wilson: With Jim Burns. I don't know about you, but I need parenting help not just sometimes but most of the time. So, maybe you feel like that, too. And we have resources to help you as a parent. And you can go to familylifetoday.com/parentinghelp.

Dave Wilson: Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry. 50 years of helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.