FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

The Lord was asking me not to work harder at being not depressed, but to walk with him through it, where I was at, to ask him, show me how to live in this moment when I feel like I don't want to live at all.

How can I glorify you with my life? That encounter with the Lord through His word and his world gave me that fresh sense of hope.

Speaker 2

I just think your story is so inspiring. Okay, I'm going to start today a little different.

Speaker 3

Oh, boy. What does that mean?

Speaker 2

I'm going to read something before even introducing our guest. I just want to read this.

Speaker 3

You're going to read something she wrote, right?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Or something you wrote.

Speaker 2

No, something Christine wrote.

Speaker 3

All right.

Speaker 2

After weeks of languishing, I told my husband what he already suspected. I was in urgent need of help. I can't remember if we took a picture of her or not. All I know is that our daughter's first day of sixth grade was also the first of my seven days in the psychiatric hospital.

When I read that, oh, you have tears in your eyes. When I read that, it drew me in, like, what in the world? This isn't, like, the beginning of most books that I read.

And so we have Christine Chapel with us today, and she's gone through some things that have been really hard.

Speaker 3

How long ago was that?

Speaker 1

Almost eight years.

Speaker 3

Eight years? Yeah.

Speaker 2

Will you take us back there? I think, like, I mean, you've written about this because you've experienced some incredible pain, and yet you're sharing it.

Like, I was reading this thinking, like, your story is so compelling and you're brave to be able to bring us into it, to offer hope and help.

So take us back to that day.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Gosh, it was a hot summer morning and I had really wrestled all night and even in the morning hours with whether or not I was going to tell my husband what I had done the evening before, which was cut myself.

This was weeks of turmoil. We had just moved across the country on a shoestring budget. We had three young children. We had left the only church family I ever knew. And we basically just set off from California to South Carolina without any idea where we would live. We just knew we wanted something different.

That whole journey and the moving process in and of itself was a big ordeal, with lots of bumps along the road financially. Financially, we were strapped, and relationally, my husband and I were really struggling under the stress of that season.

I also think I had a lot of unprocessed grief from the death of my father years earlier, and it just kind of all came to a head.

Speaker 2

And I'm just gonna say, as women, we carry all of that.

At the same time, we're thinking about our kids, we're thinking of our family. You're probably thinking, how are we gonna adjust? Where are we gonna live?

And as you said back there, like, you're still grieving over the loss of your dad. That's a lot.

Speaker 3

And I don't think we as men do it quite the same way. We can sort of put that in a little file over here. And still, I mean, you're right.

Speaker 2

I'm sure some men do that.

Speaker 3

But you are carrying all that.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I had had a history of depression and self-harm in the past too.

And so this was, you know, the end, so to speak, of a 15, 16 year battle with on and off depression.

So this was not all of a sudden I was feeling depressed. I mean, I had encountered it over and over again in my life.

Speaker 3

I mean, at that point, was your husband aware, like you said, you're gonna tell him or you're trying to decide if you're gonna tell him?

Speaker 1

I was going to tell him that I had hurt myself the night before. I had drunk a bottle of wine and just became overwhelmed with grief. I was watching, you know, this may sound silly, but I was watching Phantom of the Opera and the scene where Christine is crying in the graveyard at her father's grave.

And it just, I mean, just everything, everything leading up to that moment and all of the different layers of disappointment, dash, hopes, conflict, hurt, pressures from the kids, financial worries, housing concerns, no minis, you know, no church, family to back me up. It was just. It all came to a head.

And, you know, I did turn to self-harm to cope with that overwhelming emotion. I had wanted to die for weeks.

Speaker 2

Which probably also you had shame wrapped up in that, I'm guessing.

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, that. I mean, there's so many layers and that's why it's so important. You know, in the book, in *Midnight*, Mercy is really trying to help people to broaden their understanding of what it is to step into a depressed mother's world. Because it's not just one layer most of the time, you know, and not to say that depression is always related to circumstances, but circumstances are definitely involved. She's not just living, you know, isolated from experience and the past, you know, bleeds into the present sometimes.

And so, yeah, I was brought to the end of myself in that season and I had wanted to die. I had actually been imagining ways to die in the weeks leading up to this. And so it got to a point where that morning, after I had hurt myself, which had been the first time in a number of years, I had to have that conversation. I had the Holy Spirit fighting for me when I didn't want to fight anymore. I just wanted to go away.

Speaker 3

What do you mean, fighting for you?

Speaker 1

Life?

Speaker 3

Yeah. So you felt like I wanted. Keeping me alive.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I want.

Speaker 3

Even though I don't want to.

Speaker 1

Right, because you want to. Anything you can do to get out of the misery.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

You know, and when you're that low, you're desperate. Desperate for change, desperate for relief, desperate for anything other than what you have, you know? And so for me, at that moment, the choice seemed right.

It's life or death. It's the most real imaginary fight of life or death. Right. Because it's not. I'm not really in a matter of life and death, but in my inner world, it seems like it seemed like at that time. These are your two options.

Right. And that's what Satan loves to help us, to kind of fuel is. No, you've only got one way out.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

You know, and that's what it felt like.

And so that morning that you read, I had to come to the realization that these thoughts, though, are common. They were an indicator that something was really wrong I couldn't fix on my own, that I really needed help.

Speaker 2

Were you totally hopeless?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I wanted to die.

Speaker 2

That's hopeless.

Speaker 1

I mean, there's. You want to die because you cannot foresee a future in which happiness exists anymore.

And so how do you endure that? How does anyone endure a future that seems so bleak and, from your perspective, that that's what it looks like?

And I'm not saying that's true, but from the pit and you're looking up, that's what your reality looks like, and it seems to be true.

Speaker 3

Now, who in your house knew that you were struggling that deeply?

Speaker 1

Well, I didn't have any family around. It was just me, my husband. Well, they were young.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so I don't.

Speaker 3

Sixth grade was the oldest.

Speaker 1

Yes. And then the other two were three and four. So, you know, they're little. Yeah. Little. But what'd your husband know?

Speaker 3

Was he seeing things or feeling?

Speaker 1

I'm sure he. Yeah, he knew I was. Because again, that wasn't. That wasn't unfamiliar to him either. Yeah, we had been together at that point for 16 years, you know, and so he. He knew that when I was walking through those. Those dark periods. But I don't think that he realized how deep it was.

And so part of the Lord, you know, really convicting me in terms of seeking help was the fact that I was bought with a price, you know, I don't belong to myself. Jesus bought me with his blood and I'm to glorify him in my body.

And sometimes when we're walking through depression or even experiencing suicidal ideation, glorifying God with your body looks like taking your body, taking yourself to someone and saying, this is where I'm at. And I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2

So you have the choice of killing yourself. And God is like, no, tell somebody, tell your husband.

Speaker 1

Right. Because one of those choices is going to lead to life, you know. And I'm not talking about like long life or whatever, but in the moment, in the moment, in the moment, one of those choices is going to lead to life. And that honors God.

Right. Because if he's given you breath for the day, you've got life to live. And he hadn't snuffed out mine. So I've got to steward this life somehow.

And the night before, I had failed to steward it right through turning to alcohol and self-harm. And that was part of the shame. Even moving into the week, I spent in the hospital, going to the emergency room that morning because it was the only option for help at the time.

Speaker 2

So your daughter gets on the bus.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And you go back to your house and pack.

Speaker 1

I pack. And that was hard because I had been to the psychiatric hospital before, so I knew you don't go to the emergency room and say, this is where I'm at. And then they send you home like, okay, well, you just hang out here for a few.

No, it's like, no. They put someone in that room with you to monitor you to make sure you don't hurt yourself. So now you've got a stranger staring at you as you do every move. Right.

So I knew where this was headed. But you just get to a point sometimes where you're like, I literally don't know what else to do.

Speaker 2

What did your husband say when you told him?

Speaker 1

Yeah, he. It was an unexpected response, but I really do feel like it was one that the Lord, he set it up for us in that moment. I had told him where I was at and he essentially grabbed me in a loving way and said, I'm not going anywhere.

Speaker 2

What did that mean?

Speaker 1

It meant that he didn't know either. But it's like sometimes in the midst of those moments, you don't need someone with Answers. You just need someone to be there with you.

Speaker 2

But like, yeah, to you, that meant.

Speaker 1

Like, yeah, I'm not alone in this.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

That looks. We don't know what's going on. Obviously, life is hard, but there's this hardship that we're facing.

Is there something else going on? Like, is there? We just need help, and we don't know what that help looked like.

But for him to say that to me in that moment was a gift, and I'm thankful for it. And it meant that I had someone else sitting in the darkness with me.

Speaker 2

You're battling together, he's battling alongside you.

Speaker 1

Right, Right.

Speaker 3

I just want to say to the husbands, listening, if your wife's going through any struggle like this or anything else. Yeah, it goes both ways. But I'm talking to the guys because I'm your husband.

That's a godly response. That is exactly Jesus' words. I'm not going anywhere. Maybe you're in a situation right now and your wife needs to hear you say that.

I'm just saying. Say it. Keep going. Sorry, I just had this.

Speaker 1

No, I think that's good. That's right. Because it is so. It is so depressed people are hard to love. You know, they're not pleasant company often.

Speaker 2

By the time I arrived at the emergency room, I mostly felt weary and desperate for emotional stability. That and afraid of going through another psychiatric hospital. I've been down that road before.

We had to do something and apparently this was it. Like, that is hard.

And there was a point where you said you were looking through the window.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

What was that?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, there was a big window and a little room that they had where you could essentially kind of say your parting goodbyes to, you know, because you go into this type of hospital. Voluntary. I went voluntarily. Okay. But you don't go out until they say, we're letting you go out. And you also don't receive visitors freely. It's a. You know, so.

So at that point with my husband, I was saying goodbye for I don't know how long. I didn't know how long I was going to be there and what the journey would look like. But as he left out the doors, I was in this room where we kind of had a table and ate some food and then said goodbye. I just remember seeing him basically buckle, you know, and just put his head in his hand and just start weeping.

And so he's there, probably not even knowing I can see him. And I'm watching him. He can't see me. Right. And so we're both, like, just in that moment of we were so broken, you know, it's like, how do you. How do we fix this? And we had no answers.

We did the thing that God put in front of us to do. We called the insurance company. They said, well, you're in a new state. You don't have a primary. You know, like, we trusted the Lord with that next step, even though it was the one I did not want to take. But that moment was something I'll never forget because it was that shared brokenness for which we were powerless in the face of powerless to do anything. I couldn't help myself. He couldn't help me. I mean, he helped me the best he could, which was to get me, you know, to the hospital. But other than that, we didn't know what the next few days was going to look like.

Speaker 3

So, I mean, do you think maybe you've talked about it, that his buckling there was sadness, fear, a mixture, you know, because you're on that one side of the window and you know what you're feeling, and to see that, it's like, whoa.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I don't. I think he just felt. I mean, from what he's told me, it was just this overwhelming sense of helplessness.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Powerless.

Speaker 1

Powerless. You know, as a husband who wants to be a fixer, and his other half is broken, how do we endure? I wouldn't put words in his mouth necessarily, but I think it was definitely a mixture of grief, but also of helplessness and not knowing.

I mean, we had three young kids at home. He needs to worry now about his wife in the hospital, and so now I'm feeling shame because I'm like, well, look at how hard I've made his life. There’s just this mutual grief over this situation that was really heartbreaking.

Speaker 2

Every chapter, you have a Bible character who has gone through what you felt and you identified with them.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Well, I think Moses was a great place to start, because I think when we talk about Moses, I mean, he's pretty high up there. Yeah.

Speaker 2

I say so.

Speaker 1

Pretty high up there.

Speaker 3

He'd be one of my top 10. 15 I want to see.

Speaker 1

And so, you know, but I love that the scriptures are so real about the human experience and that not even our savior didn't experience overwhelming despair. You know, so to some degree, we can put people up on pedestals. And of course, Jesus absolutely should be right.

But in terms of, like Moses and other characters, we think of all the great things that they did and the faith that they displayed, and forget the wrestling, the doubt, the questions, you know, the anger, in this case the hopelessness, the despair that they had to go through. They didn't start off as these great men of faith. Right. Over time, walking with God, they became more mature in that way.

But they're just as broken as us, just as sinful and weak and needy. And Numbers 11, I mean, I turned to that because that was where he was at, basically, was God had put him in this situation where he had to feed all these grumbling people.

Speaker 2

He was overwhelmed.

Speaker 1

He was overwhelmed, feeling like he was being given too much to do with way too few resources. From his perspective, it seemed that God wasn't helping.

And I think moms can relate to that, right? Many of us have children who are chirping like baby birds, wanting a lot from us. We can sometimes feel like God has put so much on our plate that it’s overwhelming. It’s like, how am I going to feed all of you? Or how am I going to do everything that is before me?

Speaker 3

And the biggest bird that's chirping is your husband.

Speaker 1

Right? Yeah. And so it can be. It can be overwhelming.

But Moses, you know, basically gets to a point where he's talking with the Lord and he says, "Why have you dealt ill with your servant? Why have I not found favor in your sight that you lay the burden of all this people on me?" I mean, he has a meltdown, and at the very end, I'm not going to read the whole thing, but at the very end, he basically says, "I am not able to carry all this alone. The burden is too heavy for me. If you will treat me like this, kill me at once."

Speaker 2

That is honest and real.

Speaker 1

That is. Yeah. And I'm not saying this is how we should talk, Lord. This was not Moses' finest moment, but it's a moment of humanity. It's a moment that real people who have real burdens, which is all of us, can relate to.

Because, I mean, and what I read about at midnight mercies, that week, that morning even, I was at that point of just like, look, if this is how it's going to be, I can't continue like this, Lord. If you're not going to help, I can't go on; I'm unable to carry this burden anymore. So let's be done with it, you know.

And so he found fault with the Lord, you know, in this story. And God graciously responded to him and his meltdown by basically saying, go collect some people who are wise. Like, go collect a group of elders, go here, and when you get all these people together, then I will come and talk to you. Right?

But his direction is to go get some mature, spirit-filled men to rally around you and buoy you in the midst of your overwhelm.

Speaker 2

And sometimes when we're overwhelmed, we just want to go into hiding some of the things that you said. And some just fix ourselves and numb ourselves out in some way. And God's saying, no, run toward the people, right?

Speaker 1

Which is the opposite of what depression would have you do, which is to push the people away.

Speaker 2

Isolate.

Speaker 1

Yeah, to isolate or withdraw.

Speaker 3

The worst thing you can do, right?

Speaker 1

So in depression, that is where you feel comfortable. You know, it's comfortable to be. I'll speak for me; I don't want to speak for everyone, but for me, it was far less work to just be by myself.

Because the issue is that in the past, I had gone to other people. Sometimes people are gracious and they speak kind words, but a lot of times you're misunderstood or you're mishandled. Even in the past, if you have tried to reach out and express how you're feeling, sometimes we fumble for words. We don't know how to articulate our pain, or when it comes out, it just sounds silly to someone. They don't understand why it seems like such a big deal to you when it's not a big deal to them.

And so now, all of a sudden, you've been shot down so many times that it feels like it's just too much work. It's too much work to keep coming to people and looking for help. And so that is the temptation: to say, you know what? Why bother?

Speaker 3

And yet, as you wr, if you have the right people who are skilled, you said, like you said, you're a house on fire. Explain that, because that was a great visual for me to understand. You're a house on fire. You can't put fire out yourself, right?

Speaker 1

Well, I had an actual house fire in the middle of writing *Midnight Mercies*. So the Lord, in His providence, ordained that this would be the first chapter—that this fire would be the catalyst for my reflections. I speak from experience when I talk about the house fire.

That night, when the flames were consuming our home, I wasn't thinking about what I should have done to prevent this fire. I wasn't asking myself how the fire started or what I could do to ensure I never have fires again. No, my first priority was to get someone to put this out. Who do we call? I found myself on the phone with the 911 responders, focused solely on that immediate need.

Similarly, with depression in particular, it's as if your body is a temple—the temple of the living God. Depression, and hopelessness especially, can feel like your temple is on fire. Instead of turning to the spiritual first responders to help extinguish the flames of hopelessness, we may sit and ruminate on why we are feeling depressed. We might ask ourselves what we should have done differently to avoid feeling this way and what we can do to ensure we never feel this way again.

However, we need to seek help to extinguish the fire first. Once the flames are out, we can then address why this fire started in the first place.

Speaker 2

So, Christine, if we're friends, if you come to a friend, how can we help to put the fire out?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

You know, because the house is on fire, we see it on fire. Is there something we should do or say or not say that would help?

Speaker 1

I think that it will depend on what the situation is. You know, for my case and what I write about in *Midnight Mercies*, the next right step was what I write about, which was sharing the burden with my husband and then trusting myself to him and what the suggestions would be from our insurance company for what we should do for seeking to get help.

But I would say that in that moment, just being there is important. I think I quote from Drew Hunter in his book on friendship, which I believe is called *Made for Friendship*. There’s that idea that when we have relationships with our spouse or with friends, those people who are journeying alongside us can be like they’re holding a candle in our darkness.

Sometimes it's just that ministry of presence with someone who is in darkness; there's a little flame, right? A little flicker of hope that I'm not alone in this. Even though I don't know how to escape it, at least I'm not alone in it. For that moment, it's bearable. The darkness is less scary when you know there's somebody sitting there with you.

And of course, Jesus is there. But our perception of him in the midst of that time is very difficult to perceive.

Speaker 2

We were recording a couple months ago, and I had my phone buzzing. I looked at it, and we had a guest, but I saw that it was somebody who's been suicidal before and has been admitted. As we had a little pause in the conversation of our interview, I looked at it, and it was from a woman that said, "By the time you read this, I'll be dead. I took a bunch of pills, but I just wanted to say thank you."

So then I'm like, oh. I called one of my friends to say, "Hey, can you call 911? Can you get somebody there?" But I think what your husband, like, you guys must have agreed, was that to put the fire out, we need to go to the hospital. I think that's what she needed, too. She needed somewhere to get safe, to protect herself, to begin the journey, and that's not easy.

Did your husband recommend going to the hospital?

Speaker 1

No, I think he just recommended, how do we get to get an evaluation? So what is. You know, if we would have been back in California, then perhaps we would have called the general practitioner.

Speaker 2

You knew who to call, and now you didn't.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So we just. He called the insurance company because we're like, we don't have South Carolina insurance. I mean, there's these particulars, like, the real practical, like, details that you need to be able to get care of any kind, you know, like, who's gonna pick up the phone and make the calls.

And, you know, that was a. That was my husband's service to me in that moment was, I'm not fixing the problem, but I'm making the phone calls. Right. I'm doing what I clearly, I was not able to do. I didn't even know where to start. I made it very clear I need someone to care for me right now. I don't know what to do.

And so sometimes that help with a friend does look like, how do we orchestrate intervention so that this person can be kept safe in the midst of their desperation because, you know, with the hope that that will subside in some way.

Speaker 2

And she did live. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Praise God.

Speaker 2

Yeah. But I was.

As I was reading, I was loving that you included Isaiah 40:28, 31 that says, God will not grow weary of your need for help, nor will he ever tire of being your strength. He'll never grow weary or get tired of being our help and strength.

Isn't that so good? If you're struggling, like, just put that up there. As a young mom, especially when you feel so overwhelmed, you can't even see, like, memorize those scriptures to remind yourself when you don't feel like that's true.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And that's come up in counseling conversations that I've had with women where.

Speaker 2

And you're now a licensed therapist.

Speaker 1

I'm not a licensed therapist. I am a certified biblical counselor, so it's a different track. But I do meet with women who are seeking intensive discipleship, which is another way of putting that. In my conversations with women, I have felt this too, where you get to a point where you're like, "Man, I'm sure that God is just sick and tired of me struggling the same way over and over and over again. He's tired of hearing from me."

We have to combat that with the truth that this is who the Lord is. He's not surprised by your weaknesses. He's not surprised that you continue to struggle. He already knew all the different ways you were going to struggle every single day of your life. So this is not a surprise to Him. It's surprising to us—the depths of our weakness, the depths of our need are a surprise to us, but not a surprise to the Lord who formed us in the womb. He formed all of our days before there was even one, as Psalm 139 talks about.

That was a comfort to me, and I hope it has been a comfort to the women I've spoken with about it. It's important to recognize that our neediness is not a surprise or a liability; it's actually part of the way God designed us to be dependent on Him. It honors Him when we are needy and recognize our need.

The danger comes when we think we're independent—when we believe we've outgrown the gospel, or that we've outgrown our need for Jesus, or that grace has strings attached and we have to earn favor instead of resting in the grace that God gives through Christ.

So, that recognition that He’s not going to grow weary, that He will bear me up as many times as it takes until I get to glory, is crucial. And that may be a lot more times than I would prefer it to be, but that's what He promises to do for us.

Speaker 2

Totally. And I love that. Like, Joni Eareckson's book was the first book I ever read as a Christian. I was 16 years old. Joni Eareckson says, God, if I can't die, show me how to live. And that meant a lot to you, too. Like, isn't that powerful?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And she said that she was in such depression she wanted to die.

And I remember reading that as a 16-year-old because she was around that age when she was paralyzed from a diving accident. And so she didn't want to live anymore.

And she said, when I said that to God, "God, if I can't die, show me how to live." She said it was the first time I woke up in the morning and it felt different.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Is that the answer?

Speaker 2

I don't know. I don't know the answer. That's why Christine's here. She can answer it.

Speaker 1

And I think that that's not even my answer. I mean, we see in the scriptures, right? We see this appeal for life in the scriptures.

And I think, you know, you're talking about quotes from the weariness chapter. In every chapter of *Midnight Mercies*, we comb through a different emotional facet to the experience of depression, hopelessness, and weariness being two of them.

But when we even look to Elijah's story in First Kings 19, we see that weariness to the point where he wanted to die again. We see another great man of the Bible, right, of men of faith, right.

Speaker 2

After crazy great triumph, greatest triumph.

Speaker 1

He's superhuman. Although obviously the Lord empowered him to do all of that for that particular time. But he didn't call Elijah to be that way all the time. And like moms, we will be empowered to juggle a lot of balls as the Lord wills, right? And sometimes he wills us to do those, to do that and to be capable and productive. But then there are other times in life, or maybe you're in a situation as a mother where you just have significant limitations, chronic illness or disease or a disability, where God has not willed you to be able to do, to wear a lot of hats and to juggle a lot of balls. And so learning to live for God in the midst of, of your limitations is, I think, a spiritual skill. It's something that we have to learn. It takes humility to be able to say, Lord, the strength that I have today is not only from you as a gift, but also something I am to steward. So I am to honor you with however much or little strength that I have, however much breath or little breath you give, right? And so again that just comes back to, I think, putting Christ at the center of all of our different emotional experiences instead of me at the center and then getting feeling so self focused in my own weariness, right? My own weariness. And how can I even bear it? I just want to die. And those can become ingrained thought patterns where we're like, that's just the default mode of, okay, this is uncomfortable. I want to escape, or I. You know. And death could certainly be a means of escape. But when Elijah's case, when he has his what Spurgeon calls a fainting fit in the wilderness and asks the Lord to die, he feels like he's a failure as a prophet. He hasn't been successful in turning the nation of Israel back to their one true God. And he's just like, I can't do this anymore. And I think as a mom, I could connect with that. But we see the Lord meet him in that moment with mercy and compassion by helping him to just sustain his physical nature until he kind of got his wits back, you know, about him. And so I think for moms, just understanding that, you know, we're all built with limitations and that it's not wrong to live within those limitations. When we put Christ at the center of that, then we ask questions like Joni did. Say, lord, how can I live for you in the midst of this moment when I would really just rather disappear? And those are hard even words to say.

Speaker 3

I think it's also a chance, again, I'm talking for the husbands here, but a chance for me as a husband to come alongside Ann. You know, your husband come along. Any husband come alongside his wife when they're depleted, when they're at the end of the rope. But it could be just a long day, it could be a week. It could be sadness and depression, or it could just be, I'm overwhelmed to come alongside and pick up, be the partner. I mean, I don't know who it was. I got to find this somewhere on Facebook or Instagram. Somebody posted some marriage couple that does marriage stuff. And I just saw it real quick, and that's why I don't remember, you know, what I'm going to say. It was the one where they said, you know, in our marriage, when he comes home at the end of a workday and I'm there, we'll look at each other and she'll say, I've got 30%. In other words, you're walking into a house. I don't have 50 or even six. I've got 30. And he goes, okay, I got 70. And the next day he comes in and says, I got 80. She goes, I got 20. It's just like. They're like, whoever's lacking voices it. And the other says, I'm your partner. I'll be there.

Speaker 2

He gives you Grace for the other person.

Speaker 3

It's that kind of thing. It's like, that's oneness I think God wants to do. And sometimes, you know, you say, I got 30, and your husband says, I got 10, and now we're in big trouble. Cause you can't even get 50 together.

Speaker 2

It's true. But I was thinking through that, like, even as a husband, your chapters, like, if you're a mom, listen to these. Hopelessness, weariness, sadness, anger, anxiety, shame, loneliness.

Speaker 3

And that was just this week.

Speaker 2

And you end it with hope. You end it with hope. But I'm like, every single mother experience. Every person does, really. But it can feel so overwhelming. And when I first picked your book up and I looked at those chapter titles, like, oh, this my girl. She gets it. And she's talking about it. But for a husband to ask you, like, have you felt weary lately? Have you felt sad lately? Or angry or anxious? When have you had shame or lonely? I felt more lonely in my marriage than I felt felt single. And to voice that, like.

Speaker 3

And I was gonna say there were times when I didn't get it. Still don't. But early in our marriage, especially with young kids. No, I'm gonna say what you would say is if I would get you away from the kid, you know, get a babysitter, go out on a date. And I'd look at her and say, have you been weary? Tell me about your weariness. She said, I think I would cry. Nobody asked me that.

Speaker 2

I just had to do it.

Speaker 3

And you're actually saying, how are you doing? I remember one time on the day, she goes, could you just do this? I go, yeah, what's that? Just ask me how I'm doing. Like, what? What do you mean? Just. Just ask me how I'm doing. I'd love to tell somebody how hard it is, or, you know, maybe I'm doing good, but just like, be. Be that. I'm like, okay. Because I was like, let's have fun. You're good, right? And how she's like, I need to talk to somebody about how hard this is and how the kids were. You know, there's poop everywhere. And, you know, it's just whatever. I. I can't talk to your world.

Speaker 2

But it's totally true.

Speaker 3

I mean, every one of those chapters would be a great way to. For a husband to say, are you sad? Have you been sad?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Can I help? Can you. Can I help you Say it out loud.

Speaker 2

And your husband may not be the one that initiates that, but you could Even get Christine's book and just say, like, these. See these chapter titles? I'd love for you to ask me about that periodically and to say, like. Because I struggle with some of that sometimes. And he'll be, like, struggle with shame or anxiety just to say, like, do you know what it's like to be a mom these days? You know, it's hard.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I like that you're. And I appreciate that you're bringing this point up, because I think that there are women who are listening who grieve the fact that their spouse may not be that emotional support system and they're alone. Spiritual support system. So even though you have a spouse does not necessarily mean that they have any kind of willingness to enter your inner world. They may, in fact, be the one who has mishandled you or misunderstood you as you have turned to him to share how you're feeling. And I think that we. Even. Even though this chapter is not. This particular scripture, is not in Midnight Mercies, I love when I'm talking about depression and lament to look at Hannah's story in First Samuel, because we see even in that dynamic, you know, she's. She's barren. Her husband has another wife, and the other wife is taunting her because she's not. You know, she has kids and Hannah doesn't. And. And. But it says very clearly that the.

Speaker 2

Husband loved her, and he says, can't you just be happy with me?

Speaker 1

And so even though she has this husband who loves her and cares for her, I mean, gives her some special privileges, and it pays special care knowing that she's heartbroken because of her barrenness, he still doesn't get it.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so what? And so I want to speak a word to the women who are listening where their husband just doesn't get it, that even though you've tried to explain how you're feeling, it's like you're talking to a brick wall or you're afraid of even saying something else, because he has been you. He has been harsh, and his response is like, oh, cry me a river, or I'll just get over it. You know, what do you got?

Speaker 2

How long is this gonna go on?

Speaker 1

Yeah, this. You know, so that's. That's part of the difficulty, I think, in navigating this is that although it would be great to have someone who is compassionate and kind, that's not always the case. But even in Hannah's situation, we see that that's not the case. The husband does not understand even though he loves her. Right. So I don't want to bash him or anything. But at the same time, she still needed to talk to someone. And what do we see her do in the story but talk to the Lord about her great anxiety and vexation? And that word for vexation can also mean or explain a kind of grief anger. So we see Hannah bringing her over her barrenness and the taunting. And nobody understands me, right? This lament to the Lord. And she's talking to God about her anxiety and her anger and her grief openly. And that's not condemned. Eli, the priest doesn't come in and say, oh, you know, you're not supposed to feel angry or anxious.

Speaker 2

She thinks she's drunk at first.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, he doesn't get it right. Right out the gate. But once she explains what she's doing, I'm pouring out my heart to the Lord. He basically blesses her and she walks away from that encounter with renewed hope. Right. She didn't walk away from that time of lament and wrestling with increased hopelessness. And so anyway, I just wanted to throw that in there because that is part of what the Lord will do to redeem even our depression is that he's training us to depend on him in our prayer life, in every moment of what we are going through as mothers through the day, because we will. Although it's important to have community and have support, there's only one person who can go with us everywhere. My husband couldn't come with me to the. Into my room in the mental hospital. Jesus did, but Jesus did. He met me there. And that's where the book ultimately goes to, is to that moment.

Speaker 2

Take us there with hope. Because you ended with hope.

Speaker 1

Yeah, There's a lot to it that I write about in the book. But I think there was, you know, the moment that was the watershed moment for me was in the mental hospital in my room. And you know, if you've ever been, you know that these rooms are not adorned with a whole lot. You've got a bed and a bathroom, and that's pretty much it. Maybe some shelves for some personal belongings, but not much else. But I did have a window. And so I basically got to a point where I was able to bring my Bible. Now, I had not brought myself to open my Bible for weeks. And that added to the grief because I loved the Scriptures. I was in there all the time, you know, seeking God's face. And there are periods of life when you are a Christian where for some reason God decides that he's there, but going to Hide, right? His face kind of like what Mark Rogup talks about in his dark clouds, deep mercies, right? Just the fact that God seems like he's hidden from us doesn't mean he's absent. But that's what it felt like. And so when I turned to the scriptures in the weeks leading up to this week, it felt like like they had gone dead. And that was part of the sorrow, was like, wait a minute, did I get this wrong? And now I'm all of a sudden questioning my salvation. Is this even real? Like, have I been duped? And that was hard, but in the hospital there I made what I felt like was a last ditch effort for hope. Like, is anything God? Like, here I am, show me something fresh. And so I come through as anyone does, right? You hear, oh, I don't know, you just start thumb through the scriptures, like, is there something in here that will give me anything that I need in this moment? So I turn to Psalm 59 and I start reading it. And this was maybe 15 minutes into my search, my desperate search for life in the scriptures. And finally my eyes just like locked in like a laser to Psalm 59, verse 9 and 10. And it reads, oh, my strength, I will watch for you. For you, O God are my fortress. My God and His steadfast love will meet me. God will let me look in triumph on my enemies. And what that had meant for me in that moment, I just started crying because I knew, right, this was a word for me. God was my strength, I didn't have to be strong. And he was asking for me to watch for him, to take refuge in Him. He is my fortress. It was particularly this line though. My God and his steadfast love will meet me. And that was the hope that I needed there in the hospital, all by myself, feeling like I had been abandoned or forsaken in my despair. And so I took that word literally and I said, well, I've got nothing else to do in this hospital room but to watch for God and his steadfast love to meet me. I mean, it says right there. And so I'm going to stand on that and we're going to do this, Lord. And so I went to the window, committed to stand and watch for the Lord to meet me, having absolutely zero clue what on earth that meant. Like, I didn't know, I wasn't expecting like Jesus to manifest in the room or something, you know, but I'm like, well, this is what it says, so I got nothing to do. I'm gonna do it.

Speaker 2

I'm gonna watch and wait.

Speaker 1

I'm gonna watch and wait because this is what the Word is saying, and this is where I feel like the Spirit is leading me. So I stood there at the window watching for minutes, it felt like hours. And then I realized I didn't have my glasses on. And then I might be able to watch a little bit better if I got my glasses on. Because from what I could see, just this big sprawling oak tree in the courtyard, but nothing else. I mean, no ants on my windowsill, no butterflies fluttering around.

Speaker 2

And you're looking for anything.

Speaker 1

I'm looking for any. Like, God give me a sign, you know, And I'm not. I'm not advocating for that. But that's what I was feeling like, you know, in this moment, looking for signs of life from the scripture, but also even in the world out my window and finally came to see, after I put my glasses on, something that I had never seen before. So not only did the Lord give me a fresh word from him, his word, but he also gave me a fresh encounter through his world with a brand new sight, which was a sleeping squirrel. And so in this sprawling oak tree in the courtyard, I see a squirrel laying on its stomach with its legs hanging over the branch, its tail just dangling in the breeze, sleeping. I'm like, I've never seen a squirrel ever do anything like this before.

Speaker 3

They're usually never seen.

Speaker 1

I've never seen it. They're usually like, I've seen one, it's a thing. But in that moment, I knew that this moment was ordained for me because I saw myself in that squirrel, you know, as a mother, I was that busy bodied creature, right? Like when you think of squirrels. And maybe when I think of them, I think of scurrying and digging holes and they gotta. They've gotta go collect the nuts and start in front of cars and, you know, risk their life to get to the other side of the road. I certainly don't think of them as like being calm, cool and collected on a hot summer day, taking a nap, you know, but in the midst of this day, the midday sun, this squirrel recognized her need for rest and refuge and took a nap in the tree. And in that moment, I felt like that was what the Lord was inviting me to do, that I had been working so hard for so long to try to be different, be a better mother, be a better wife, be a better Christian, be strong, be steady, be stable, be calm, cool and collected when life was hard, right? God wasn't asking me to do any of that. Not one time did he ask me to do any of that. His invitation to those who are weary and burdened is, come and find your rest in me. And so I resonated with that squirrel that day. And it sounds funny.

Speaker 2

It sounds so funny. I resonated with the squirrel. I read this out loud to Dave last night because I said that would be me. Because God speaks to me through nature.

Speaker 1

Through his Word, and through his world.

Speaker 2

Exactly.

Speaker 1

You know, and this was a revelation that came through the scripture. He met me there.

Speaker 2

He gave you the scripture first.

Speaker 1

He gave me the scripture first and then gave me the creature to see as a reflection of my own self and a fresh invitation to rest and refuge. And then ultimately connected this tree at the center of the courtyard to the tree that, as a Christian, as a believer in Christ, the tree that is at the center of my life, which is the cross of Jesus Christ. Right. Because the cross of Jesus Christ was not run of rest and refuge. It was of labor. Right. And pain and agony and torture. And because of that tree, he was cursed. Right. Hanged on a tree. I could come to the Lord and find the rest and refuge that I needed. And so that was like. And again, it sounds silly to link that to a squirrel, but this is how God connected the dots, and I'm stewarding the story with it, okay? Because I knew that there nothing had changed about my circumstances in that moment. I was still in the hospital for days after that, still didn't know what the future looked like, still felt depressed, like nothing had changed other than the fact that I felt seen and known by God.

Speaker 2

Did you have hope?

Speaker 3

That's a big change.

Speaker 1

It was a fresh sense of hope.

Speaker 2

And you started your chapter, your book, with hopeless.

Speaker 1

Hopelessness. Right. So this book takes us on a journey from hopelessness to hope. And the hope was found in the fact that God's mercy was most clearly seen at the apex of Christ's misery. And that's what he put at the center there. That tree was no accident. None of this was an accident in my life. And I love to steward this story because it was the watershed moment for me where I went down to the bottom and Christ was there. You know, he met me there. Nobody else could come into that room with me. But he went. And he didn't say, come on, Christine, come out to. Come up to where I am. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps and do a better job at not being so sad or upset all the time. It's like, you know, he came down to get Me, I needed rescue. I needed him, Yes, I needed him to come where I was at, to hold that candle, right, that I talked about earlier, but then to give me hope and knowing that because of the cross of Christ, I am not forsaken or abandoned even in the pit that I think. Zach Eswine, I heard him talk about depression one time, talking about the hand of grace. Like the grace of God goes lower than however low you're going to go, you know, like you're never going to go fall deeper than the hand of grace can catch you. And that was true in this particular situation. And so that just totally reoriented my whole perspective on what it is that I was going through and ultimately what the Lord was asking me to do, which was to rest. Not to work harder at being not depressed, but to walk with him through it, where I was at, to ask him, show me how to live in this moment when I feel like I don't want to live at all. You know, how can I glorify you with my life in the midst of these meltdowns? And I'm not saying that that worked overnight, but it did. That encounter with the Lord, through his word and his world gave me that fresh sense of hope.

Speaker 2

And every mother needs to hear that and be reminded of that. Well, all of it. That he's with us, whether we're at the highest. Sees us, sees you, yeah, he's with us, he sees us. He's never left us. That we can find our hope in him. Not our circumstances or our kids behavior or any of it. It's in him. I just think your story is so.

Speaker 3

Inspiring when you get to that place where you just were like, I feel seen, I feel heard by God, he's with me. And then your 3 year old crayons all over the wall and you know, the dog, I mean it's just the life of a mom is so chaotic and you have those moments, but then you have to juggle 18 balls. How do you stay steady? How do you like?

Speaker 2

Or how do you rest in the midst of yourself?

Speaker 3

You got out and entered back into your world after where you were. How were you able to take even the sleeping squirrel rest into this new world? Because the world's still what it was when you left and you got to re enter and you're in a different place and hopefully never going back there again. How did that function for you?

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, it took some practical changes, one of them being this total, total abstinence. I don't know a better word for it. And Help me if there is one, but just not ever drinking again. Like just a very practical choice of I am not drinking alcohol anymore, just period. And we know studies have shown like there is a rise in alcohol consumption and depression and suicides with mom.

Speaker 2

Really?

Speaker 1

Yes. And so I'm not saying that that's the cause.

Speaker 3

There's a connection.

Speaker 1

I had to get to a point. I mean it's by God's grace that I did up in the 30% of suicide completed suicides that do have alcohol present in their systems. And I had to get to a point where it's like, look, I don't know exactly why I feel the way I do all the time, but there are things that I can do that are certainly not going to make it worse, right? And so I can. The drinking was making it worse. It was not offering any kind of life for me. It was just compounding the sorrows. And it seemed to offer a way of escape temporarily, but the problem's still there. When the buzz wears off, you wake up the next morning. And so practical changes also to sleep, being very protective of my sleep. And so I want to advocate for that because we could over spiritualize some of this to the neglect of just really practical changes that lifestyle. And some of the lifestyle changes also included just changes to my expectations of, of the season that I was in. Like having aspirations for this goal or that goal is nothing wrong with that. But sometimes we're in a season of life where those things are just not in the cards for the moment. And so learning to rest in the midst of that, when you have things you want to do or accomplish and you, you can't, right? Is, is trusting God with, well, if that's what he has for me, then it will happen. But I have to reduce my. And kind of shrink down my world to what is God putting before me in this moment? Not what do I want to accomplish in six months, but it's like, how do I get through the next 15 minutes? Okay, well, I've got kids and they need lunch, okay, so I'm going to glorify God by making the lunch or doing the next thing that he puts in front of me. And so that was part of it too, was just training myself to have a smaller view of my world in terms of the demands that were many, right? But knowing that that was not nothing, that even being faithful in that, that those little, seemingly little things was actually me stewarding myself, my body, right for the Lord and doing what he has put before me. And I think as Moms, we could think that God's putting a million things on our plate when it's actually us kind of throwing way more on the plate than what actually God requires.

Speaker 2

And I think even asking for help, that's really hard for me to ask for help. My friend's daughter really had postpartum depression. And when they talked about it, she said, it's just killing me not to get sleep with an infant. She requires a lot of sleep. And the parents of their. They said to their daughter, do you need to come, you and your husband, Would you like to live with us for a while so that your husband can have some help at night and you can have some help at night? And they moved in until she got over that. Just that little bump of, like, when she got some sleep, the world looked a little different. But to admit to it and say, I need some help, I think that's important.

Speaker 1

Absolutely. And I'm glad that you mentioned that, because I'm actually. I'm starting to hear that more often. So whether or not people are just now sharing about it more or what have you, but having that sense of, okay, look, I mean, that's how they did it in the olden days, right? Was that community that you had babies.

Speaker 2

They're all together, right?

Speaker 1

And they were all together. And now we have just become so compartmentalized in our lives that it's like we want everyone to be hands off and we'll let you know when you can do something. And so, yeah, I mean, there's that sense in which it seems as though I'm a failure as a mom if I cannot feel capable and highly productive, which is what that super mom term is getting at. Right. But God didn't call us to be highly productive and capable. He actually created us to be dependent on him for everything. And so. But again, I don't ever like to talk about this stuff. It's like if you just, you know, have these. It's not a formula. I mean, this was a journey for me that took years, you know, and by God's grace, I'm at where I am today because of him, not because of me. Right. Because of His Word and His Spirit. Not because I was smart and figured something out. Like, he drugged me along kicking and screaming, you know? But I point to the hope that he has. Has given to us in Christ because it is a living hope. And that hope is that, you know, though you may be in a season of darkness, like, there's always light that comes after darkness. That is the promise of Redemption, there is always blessing after the brokenness. Right. There's always honor after shame. You know, I mean that is the promise of the gospel is that we will have glory after the suffering, but not the other way around. The glory doesn't come first. We're going to suffer with crap Christ before we share in the glory of Christ. And so learning to be content with that in the midst of disappointment and hurt and heartbreak is something that all of us are on our own journeys of trying to figure out how this is not a one size fits all for everyone. But it is a good work that he promises to do in us through community and through the church and through his work.

Speaker 3

Hey, here's my last question before we go to a bonus segment. Have you ever since that time struggled back like you felt like, oh, I'm slipping, I'm slipping back toward there?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think maybe the first year I had some bouts with depression that was not at all as significant. But I mean I have not since then had any alcohol or self harm. I don't have the temptation. I mean those are just. The Lord freed me from those things and despite myself, he did that work and I'm thankful. But that's not to say that I'm always happy. That's not to say that I only experience pleasant emotions. I think part of you wouldn't be.

Speaker 2

Human if you didn't.

Speaker 1

Well, but that could be what someone takes away, is that while she had all the hopelessness, weariness, sadness, anger, anxiety, shame, loneliness in that season, but now she never does, when in reality it's that no, those, those emotions are still there. But I've by God's grace, I'm not taking any credit for this, but the Lord has shown me how he views me in those moments when I feel hopeless, when I feel weary, when I feel angry, anxious, shamed and lonely. And knowing how God is going to guide me through those difficult emotions to a place of hope and a posture of humility, I have become less hopeless. So it's a totally kind of backwards way of thinking about it, but I guess you could call it, that's the fruit, right? It's the fruit of the walk with Christ over the years is that those painful emotions, while they still come up from time to time, I know what to do with them now. I know who to take them to. And I know that, that even though they're a very real part of my experience, they're not the end of the story and that there's more and that I have to learn how to Wait with hope, but ultimately, just take that next step that the Lord puts before me in faithful obedience, because the outcomes belong to him, but he's not going to obey. I need to do what he wants me to do in that moment so that I can just make it through whatever he's got planned for my day.

Speaker 2

I love that. I love your heart for Jesus. I love your love for the Word, and just that you're vulnerable enough to share your journey. Because, man, a lot of us are feeling. Maybe we haven't been hospitalized, but we deal with all those emotions and we don't always know what to do with them. And I'd love for you to pray, but you also have a podcast. Has that been helpful for you and therapeutic?

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2

What's it called?

Speaker 1

The podcast has been such a blessing to me. It's called the Hope and Help Podcast, and that is with the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship. And so I've been doing that podcast for six, almost. Yeah, no, six years, actually now. And I have conversations, biblical conversations about life's challenging problems. And so every episode, I interview guests who have written books, kind of like what we're doing now, talk about a particular topic, and show how the Gospel really does offer us hope and help in the midst of those problems. And so, yeah, having those conversations and speaking with guests who have written on a particular topic, I mean, there. There are episodes I' listened to over and over again because I need. I need the comfort and counseling.

Speaker 2

It helps. That's why I was saying it's therapeutic for you, probably just like us.

Speaker 1

And so. And. But the Lord's been gracious to. Just through those conversations, I've established friendships and have gotten different opportunities. But most importantly, it's been a part of deepening my faith in Christ, my confidence in him in the midst of hardship and understanding, you know, what redemption is, how it weaves in with the miseries of life and how we can walk with Jesus through. Through all of those hard times.

Speaker 2

That's good. Will you pray for us or pray for. Just pray for our listeners and for moms. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'll pray specifically for the mom who feels really discouraged, really discouraged, and maybe even disillusioned in her faith right now. Heavenly Father, God, thank you so much for the opportunity to huddle around your word today with Dave and Ann as we consider your mercy, the mercy that you have for mothers who are struggling through seasons of grief or depression or difficulty. God, I pray for the listener now who is just feeling like she is at the end of her rope for the listener who feels like she can't possibly face tomorrow because today feels so heavy for her. I pray that you would meet her where she is at, that you would her a fresh sense of your mercy toward her, not because you change circumstances, God, but because you are with her in the midst of the hard circumstances. So would you reveal yourself, your love, and your care in a special way for her today and help her to take courage in the fact that her savior, Jesus Christ, knows what this experience is like. He himself was overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death in the Garden of Gethsemane. Help her to connect with her suffering savior, the man of sorrows, that she may take comfort in his affliction and take courage for the next moments that she faces in her day. Thank you, Lord, for your gospel. Thank you for the good news that you give us and the hope that you give us in grief. Thank you that the darkness does not win, but light is at the end of all of our stories. And that after we suffer, there is glory. After death, there is life. Thank you, Lord, that you are our redeemer and that you love, love us. In Jesus name I pray. Amen.

Speaker 2

Thanks.

Speaker 3

Well, thank you, Christine. What we're going to do now is we're going to do some bonus material. And this is for our family life partners. And if you're like, what's a partner? A family life partner is someone that says, I'm going to give financially, monthly to family life. That's how we exist. And we so appreciate that. And one of the ways we want to say thank you is we going to do a bonus question or two just for them. And so if you're like, man, I want to hear this, this. And it's going to be about marriage, by the way. So go to familylifetoday.com hit the donate button to become a partner with us on a monthly basis, and you'll get some of this bonus material every time we do an episode.

Speaker 2

What's the question? Can you tease us?

Speaker 3

I wasn't going to tease it, but I can.

Speaker 1

I'll tease it right now, and then we'll stop.

Speaker 3

Okay, I'm going to ask these two moms and wives what we as husbands can do to help you as moms and wives flourish. Or maybe another way to think about it is how. How could the marriage function in a way that would bring life to our wives?

Speaker 2

And if you're a woman listening to this, you can send it to your husband and he could maybe. He could maybe watch it hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button.

Speaker 3

And we'd like you to subscribe. So all you gotta do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this.

Speaker 2

Word like and subscribe.

Speaker 3

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.