FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I think it's easy to look at our spouse and think, I'm doing all the work. I'm the one that's putting all the energy into our relationship.

And so when Dave was really honest with me and saying, it feels like every single thing I do is critiqued by you, I can do nothing right. That was really sobering to me.

And I could have said, well, it's because you don't do anything right. But because of my relationship with God, and I'm not saying I'm perfect, there is a point of submission to the Father of saying, Lord, is that true? Foreign.

Speaker 2

Welcome to family life today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 1

And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us atfamilylife today.com. this is Family life today.

Speaker 2

Okay, so it's gonna be an interesting day.

Speaker 1

This is a bad idea. It's the dumbest idea ever.

Speaker 2

Well, I'm glad it's not my idea and it's not your idea.

Speaker 1

I know. We're like walking into a trap. Who would say yes to this?

Speaker 2

It might be a trap. This could be a trap. This idea came from the production room. Our audio engineer, Bruce Gough, and our producer, Jim Mitchell.

Speaker 1

Oh, you're naming names.

Speaker 2

Well, I want the guilty to be known. Yeah.

Speaker 1

So honestly, great idea. Which we're like, is it a great idea?

Speaker 2

You said it was the dumbest idea ever. I'm gonna repeat that.

Speaker 1

Cause I thought it was super funny actually.

Speaker 2

Yeah. So we have actually agreed to do this.

Speaker 1

This episode will be called the One Star Wonder.

Speaker 2

The One Hit Wonders. Oh, One Star Wonder. I get it. Yeah. So, Bruce, you wanna tell our listeners what your great idea is?

Speaker 1

Sure.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So have a great book called Vertical Marriage. Came out a few years ago.

Speaker 2

Feels like a setup. You said great book. You've never said that before.

Speaker 4

It got rave reviews.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Let me just say on Amazon, as at the time of this recording, it's got a 4.7 out of 5 rating from 901 Global Ratings.

Speaker 1

That's pretty good.

Speaker 3

That's pretty good. Most of them are five star or four star. You know, over 90% are either four or five stars, but it's got so many ratings and reviews that there are a minority of reviews that are not so positive.

And so we have filtered out just the one star reviews. We're gonna read you those reviews.

Speaker 2

This is gonna be a really short show. Cause there's probably only one or two.

Speaker 3

We're gonna read you those reviews and it's an opportunity for you to clarify or to reiterate or to just, you know, respond.

Speaker 4

This is really a gift to you.

Speaker 2

This is your chance to respond, to get better.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 3

And you've got reviews like, this book changed my marriage and in turn, my life.

Speaker 2

That was me. I sent that one.

Speaker 4

There's lots of those. Unfortunately, we're not going to read any more of those.

Speaker 3

Changed our marriage. Transform your marriage by making God first. Plenty of those. But here's an example of a one star.

Speaker 2

By the way. By the way, should we hold hands.

Speaker 1

As we hear it?

Speaker 2

I just want to know, how did you find these one star? I've never seen these. Do you go looking for these?

Speaker 1

We have never looked at any of these reviews.

Speaker 3

Okay, well, here you go. Like, here's a one star review. Vertical Marriage is a great book, exclamation point. I purchased a new copy to gift to someone, but it arrived with coffee stains across the jacket and other damages.

Speaker 1

What?

Speaker 3

Very disappointing as I don't have time to return it for a clean copy. One star.

Speaker 1

Oh, I would give that a one star too.

Speaker 2

You don't even drink coffee. What?

Speaker 4

You don't even drink coffee. It's not your fault.

Speaker 2

I'm glad we had nothing to do with that. And you know what, Bruce? You find out who they are and we'll send them a free book.

Speaker 1

That's a good idea.

Speaker 2

Autograph.

Speaker 1

Yes. Yes.

Speaker 3

Jim's got one. Jim's got another doozy.

Speaker 4

Yeah, that one was easy. Check this one out.

I read this book and then I went out to my car and slammed my appendage in the door. The latter was significantly more satisfying, considerably less painful, and substantially more useful than reading this book.

Speaker 2

That is. I do not believe that's a real review.

Speaker 4

That's a real.

Speaker 3

It is.

Speaker 2

Now that makes me feel sad.

Speaker 3

Okay, but here's a little. So, okay, so wait.

Speaker 1

Should we respond?

Speaker 3

Well, I mean, you can, but.

Speaker 2

Well, what do you guys pray for your appendage?

Speaker 4

Sorry about your attendance.

Speaker 1

Oh, that's sad.

Speaker 3

Okay, but here's one that you really can't respond to.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 3

And these are from real people, so we don't want to poke fun. You know, someone read the book and this is what they came away with. And I'm sure this was not your intent.

So it says, this is a one star review on *Vertical Marriage*. This book is little more than sexist propaganda. The message is that if you want to save your marriage, you must constantly praise your husband or he has the right to leave or cheat. The author's constant need to say that a man will always go where he is cheered is a veiled threat.

The book suggests that respect and love flow mostly towards the man or the marriage will fail.

Speaker 2

Wow. Now, that's a real review.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

You know.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I appreciate even the honesty of.

Speaker 2

That, especially since you have a book coming out in May on that very topic.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we kind of. The book coming out in May, you've probably heard us talk about it, is called how to Speak Life to youo Husband when all youl Want to Do Is Yell at Him.

Speaker 2

You know what? I can see how they could read that into what we wrote. We didn't mean that, but it could be misinterpreted.

Speaker 1

Well, it kind of feels like even the same sexist propaganda. It can feel like, oh, I'm just supposed to say my husband's great when he's not. And you're right. It could feel like, what about me? Kind of idea.

And we're not saying that a woman doesn't need respect. She doesn't need cheer. We need all of those things.

So, I mean, I can understand what you're saying, but also, that's not our intent, because none of that's in us.

Speaker 2

Well, answer me this. What would you say to that woman or any other woman that feels like her husband doesn't deserve to be cheered?

Speaker 1

None of us deserve to be cheered. Let me just say that. Like, I mean, that's the tricky part, like, right there. Do we deserve it?

Speaker 2

So how does she cheer a man? Let's say this man, this husband, is abusive verbally or physically or emotionally.

Speaker 1

I would say if you're in a situation like that where your husband is abusive in any way, verbally or physically, and especially physically, I would say get yourself out of that home and get to safety and take your kids with you, because it's not safe for you. The most loving thing, the most respectful thing you could do for your husband and for yourself is to get safe.

Sometimes love looks different, and respect looks different. It doesn't mean you're lying. I think we talked about this, but it means that you're trying to find the best in one another and speak those out.

What we can end up doing very naturally is seeing the worst and saying the worst. Let's just be honest, that doesn't always help. It may feel good in the moment, but it doesn't necessarily help your marriage.

Speaker 2

Well, let me ask you this.

Speaker 1

Why are you. Why are you asking me? You answer the question too well, here's my other thought.

Speaker 2

I mean, that was really about that review, which I agree could be read that way.

Is how does a woman—and it goes both ways—how does a man or a woman, husband or wife, respect a man? That's disrespectful.

How does a husband love a woman? That's unlovable?

Speaker 1

You answer it.

Speaker 2

We love because Christ first loved us. And I think that love and that respect actually will motivate the other to change. It doesn't work the other way around. If you are unlovable or disrespectful, it doesn't change them. It actually pushes them away.

Again, you're not supposed to lay down your life and just take it if the man's being abusive. But God calls us to love one another as he loves us, and we're unlovable, we're disrespectful, and God loves us.

So it's the gospel applied to marriage.

Speaker 1

I mean, I'm thinking too of 1 Peter 3:1, like wise wives, be subject to your husbands, which I mean, a lot of people could push back on that so that even if some do not obey the Word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives. And so maybe our husbands aren't the men that we want them to be, but still, the way we act and the way we demonstrate our love for God, the result of it is the fruit of the Spirit, which is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self-control.

As a result of walking with Jesus, we naturally, as we are obedient to him and we're surrendered to him, that's the result of walking with him, that fruit. And so when that's demonstrated, we are going to be respectful to everybody because that's what Christ is like. It creates an aroma in the home that's beautiful even to those people that don't believe that are hard on us.

And I'm telling you, it's impossible to love someone, to respect someone when they're being so negative or they don't deserve it. But as you said, Dave, we don't deserve it. It's the beauty of the gospel. And so to me, even if they aren't appreciating the way I'm treating them, like let's say you didn't even appreciate it, I know that God sees it. He sees my obedience to him, not my husband, but to God.

What were you going to say, Jim?

Speaker 4

Yeah, Ann, that's a good point. You mentioned 1st Peter 3 and the corresponding verse for husbands. In that passage, 1st Peter 3:7 admonishes us to live with our wives in an understanding way.

And the reality is, in all honesty, why we're doing this program. Because these one-star reviews contain an element of truth. These are coming from specific areas of pain or misunderstanding or hurt in a marriage where maybe this person is a wife with a husband who does not live in an understanding way. And so they're feeling maybe a loss of agency, a loss of any way of feeling like they can influence their husband.

And this becomes. They're expecting a one-way street of constant adoration for their husband. And things never change, which we know, you know, Bruce and I know working with you. And our listeners know. Whether this person is a listener or not, I don't know. But I think our family life today listeners know that's not your heart at all.

This isn't unlimited praise. I mean, you give Dave a hard time every day on our program. And Dave, you're instinctively humble about mistakes you've made in the marriage, but you're tapping into something in the book, right, that is very real. You had a turning point in your marriage where you realized he wanted a cheerleader and he had a critic.

Maybe talk a little bit about that. Like what you didn't know that Dave was experiencing from you that you needed to change.

Speaker 1

I think it's easy to look at our spouse and think, why aren't they doing xyz? Why aren't they performing in a certain way? And I did that for years. I thought, I'm doing, I'm the one that's putting all the energy into our relationship. And it makes you think, well, why should I when he's doing nothing?

And so when Dave was really honest with me and saying, it feels like every single thing I do is critiqued by you. I can do nothing right. That was really sobering to me. And I could have said, well, it's because you don't do anything right, but because of my relationship with God.

I'm not saying I'm perfect because I went to God disgusted, saying, can you believe he would say that to me? But there is a point of submission to the Father of saying, Lord, is that true?

And Dave's performance didn't change, but I felt like my demeanor and my words needed to change, not my demeanor in like I'm a doormat or that I just do whatever he says. My demeanor in being so critical and sometimes even cruel with my words.

Speaker 2

And I think, Jim, you're onto something that we didn't realize at the time. Over the years, we've come to understand that her words to me about my life of pouring in outside the home but not in the home come from a root. I don't think we ever snapped back to say, okay, what's underneath these words? What's underneath this critique?

I think we realized years later, oh, Ann grew up in a home where she was never really seen. The brothers were more important; she was not seen. I grew up wanting to achieve, so here I am achieving, while she feels unseen. Her words of critique to me are like, "You don't see me," just like my dad and mom didn't see me. I'm like, "You don't care what I'm doing, so I'm out there."

So, when we got to that realization, it was like, oh, wait, both of those deficiencies are met in Christ. They're not going to be met in each other.

Speaker 1

But there's a realization of acknowledging that.

I know some people think, you know, what's this mumbo jumbo about going into the past?

If it's affecting your present and your future, then why wouldn't you go into the past to see where does this come from? What is the root?

Speaker 2

I actually believe God wants us to understand the origin of our hurt. And he wants us to understand he's there and he can heal that wound. And out of that healing comes healing to our marriage.

Speaker 1

And we get into that in this new book, quite a bit of, how do we do that?

Speaker 2

Okay, I'm sure there's no more one. Stars.

Speaker 1

Wait, wait. Let's pray for that person, too. Like, I'm just going to take a second. Like, Lord, I know that this person's hurting, and I can't imagine how exhausted they probably feel of trying to make their marriage better when it maybe feels like they're the only one that has ever tried. So I pray that you would give them perseverance. I pray that you would remind them how much you love them, how much you see them. And I get their pain. And I pray that you would meet them right where they are miraculously. God, show them how much you love them and how they can trust you for all of it. In Jesus' name.

Hey. I just want to pause for a moment and remind you, as a listener, you might need to hear this. You are not alone. I don't know if you know this, but Dave and I have a team at Family Life today ready to pray for you. It's this incredible honor and privilege just to lift your name up to God. So if you need prayer, please, please reach out to us. You can head on over to familylife.com/pray-for-me.

Speaker 2

We would love to lift you up by name. So Again, go to familylife.comprayforme and we will pray for you.

Speaker 4

So here's another one. Another one Star Review.

Speaker 2

There's more.

Speaker 4

There's a few more.

Speaker 1

We're teasing.

Speaker 4

The authors participate in a decadent culture that has destroyed any chance of real Christian marriage. The husband should take ownership of his own behavior, and the wife should reject this toxic culture rather than trust God that his betrayals don't matter.

This book is nothing more than pop culture self-help of the most embarrassing kind.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 1

The husband should take ownership of his behavior and the wife should reject this toxic culture rather than trust God that his betrayals don't matter.

Speaker 2

Well, let me say this about the husband: he should take ownership of his behavior. Yes, yes, yes, I totally agree.

I don't know exactly what's behind everything else this person says, but yes, the husband and wife should take ownership of their actions. If a husband is demeaning or lazy and not honoring his vows to be the man that God wants him to be, yeah, he needs to take ownership of that.

Speaker 1

And I would say too, a wife can't control or change her husband. That's not our job. And a husband can't control his wife. We can influence each other, but we can't control them.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And our heart was never ever to say to women, you should just respect your man when he's betraying his God and his vows to you.

Again, I might be reading into something he or she is saying that is toxic and you need to sit down with a counselor. You need to repent and obey God and you don't live in that relationship. That has to be addressed.

And I know we did better in this book. Saying you need to speak hard truth to your man, to your wife when things are wrong. It isn't just cheer, cheer, cheer. You're the man. You're the man.

Speaker 1

We've gone into detail in this next book coming out in May.

Speaker 2

There are times when you need to say hard things, speak the truth in love, package it with love. But it needs to be said. Maybe that wasn't communicated well in vertical marriage.

Speaker 1

Yeah, maybe when the person says this book is nothing more than a pop culture self-help of the most embarrassing kind. I would hope that this would never be just a self-help book because there’s nothing wrong with self-help books.

But for me personally, apart from Christ, I can only change myself for a little bit. I can't keep track of that, and I can't keep consistent with that for more than probably a week.

Speaker 2

And I gotta add this. I reject that premise from the very beginning. It's not called horizontal marriage. It's called vertical.

I think we tried on every page to say, you can't do this. I can't do this. You need Jesus. I need Jesus. Surrender.

The only hope is not in your spouse or in a good marriage book. It's in a relationship with the living God of the universe through Jesus. That's what vertical means.

Speaker 1

And that's not pop culture. That's the gospel.

That's what we want when we wrote it. We're like, we don't want a self-help book. We want the gospel on every page that people would see.

This is who makes the difference. It's Jesus. And the gospel makes a difference.

Speaker 4

So I'll just say our podcast listeners have heard many times the story of you and the floorboard of the Honda.

Speaker 2

Yep.

Speaker 4

And that was a moment, Dave, where you were acknowledging what this person's pushing back on. That a husband that doesn't take ownership for his behavior and a wife that needs to reject that toxic culture.

And you were tempted to reach back in the backseat and get your day planner and prove that you were at home more than you were. And you felt God lead you to repent in that moment.

Maybe tell very briefly that story, because I think this is exactly what this reader is wanting.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And again, it's a long story, but the heart of it is when Ann said she had lost her feelings for me, which was a shock to me in that moment because I thought we were great. I was going to answer it with pop psychology. I'm going to do the right thing, I'm going to say the right thing, and I'm going to prove that she was wrong.

First of all, I'm home a lot more than you think I am. And she had just said, I haven't been. And that's where God broke through the horizontal plane and said, this is about you repenting. This is about me being number one in your life. You're never going to fix a marriage with pop psychology or good techniques. You can only fix this marriage with a relationship with me. So I'm calling you to repent to what you know better.

And so I knew in that moment, the only move I can make is to get on my knees and ask God to be the Lord of my life, which he was. But I was just. I was living in my own power and my own wisdom. And it was where man's wisdom and power goes empty.

Speaker 1

And as a result of that, I mean, I did the same thing because I realized that I had to repent from making my husband and our marriage an idol.

And that's what the culture is doing. That's what's toxic: we make our marriage our idol, and our kids our idol, and our husbands our idol. And our jobs are idols. Not all of us, but I'm saying that's the temptation to make someone else and some other thing more important than Jesus.

It becomes an idol where we try to find joy, satisfaction, and purpose from that thing or that person, and it never fulfills us.

Speaker 2

So at the end of the day, in our opinion, it's the opposite of self-help. It's God help. You cannot self-help this self-power, this. You can't do it. You just can't do it.

And all we would ever say is, you need Jesus Christ. That's the answer to your life and to your marriage.

Speaker 1

And I'm sad that that's how the person saw it, because there's something in there that triggered that. So.

Speaker 4

But yeah, I think, you know, sitting in that Honda with you and something happened in you when you saw Dave take ownership. Yes, for his own behavior before God and reposition himself, he actually turned around and knelt down in that Honda Accord and repented right in front of you. And that freed you up to trust him more, to trust God more.

And what I read in this review is maybe a woman who has not experienced that yet, and she feels like she's being told, I just got to keep cheering him on, and I got to keep giving and giving and giving. And she's yearning for a moment like that.

And maybe we pray for that, too. Any reader of the material or listener who hasn't yet gotten to that point where the repentance has happened.

Speaker 1

Father, I want to pray just for the people that feel exhausted, exhausted from trying so hard, from praying so often, from trying to see some hope for their marriage. That's what it feels like, Lord, it's exhausting. And we lose hope that you're working, that you hear, and that anything can change.

But, God, you can change our spouse. And more importantly, the most important thing is that you change us. Lord, help us not to keep our eyes on anything else, but you. Give us hope, give us perseverance, give us what we need, Jesus, to stay in this marriage, to have hope for our marriage, and to be the women or the men that you've called us to be.

Speaker 2

Lord, I pray for this woman or any wife or any husband who could possibly be in a marriage where their husband isn't going to get on their knees, their wife is not going to get on her knees in a car or anywhere. And they're disappointed because they're like, well, Dave and Ann both got on their knees, but my husband won't.

I pray that they would get on their knees. It's not about their spouse, it's about them. That's the only person they can truly control is yourself. So, Lord, I pray that if somebody listens to this prayer, they realize, okay, it's me. He won't or she won't, but I will. And I'm going to get on my knees right now.

And Lord, I pray you'd meet them right where they are in their surrender, in their repentance, and you would give them power, resurrection power, and you give them hope, just hope in you and help them to become the wife or the husband you called them to be and trust their spouse to you.

And God, I pray you do a miracle in their spouse in Jesus name. Amen.

Speaker 1

Well, guys, that was super uplifting, you know, thanks for being like the most depressing thing ever.

Speaker 3

Can I just say that we have the book available in our store, the book that critics are saying there's nothing to learn here.

Speaker 4

Move along.

Speaker 3

Move along. We have that available. Familylifetoday.com and we can't guarantee it, but it probably won't have a coffee stain on it.

Speaker 4

Slight chance, probably not.

Speaker 3

So familylifetoday.com or you can give us a call.

Speaker 2

800-6280-035818-00358 6329F. As in family. L as in life, in the word today. And I just tell you, get the book and prove those critics wrong. Prove them wrong.

Speaker 3

We have a small group study.

Speaker 1

That's right. Vertical marriage curriculum.

Speaker 2

Yes, get that same place, familylife.com today.

Speaker 3

Com. Yeah, leave your review.

Speaker 1

Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.