FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I started praying, "Lord, help build this bridge of trust back." And it's been five years, and I've seen him faithfully do that.

It was not a one and done. It wasn't an overnight process.

And the Lord kept saying to me, "I need you to stay in your lane and do your work with me, regardless of how he responds."

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us@familylife today.com this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 2

All right, today we've got another message from the love like you mean it cruise from last February.

Speaker 3

And this is actually a panel that we had with some great people, probably some of your favorites, Ron and Nan Deal that we all love, Jared and Becky Wilson and Trent and Andrea Griffith, who were pretty great on this panel.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, there's something about panels. You get different opinions, different perspectives, and you can see yourself and one of these couples sitting on the panel. So it's going to be great.

And by the way, this is from the cruise from last February. We're going sailing again this February, February 14th through 21st, 2026, on a brand new MSC World America boat.

Speaker 3

But here's the thing, we're 90% full. So now is the time. This is the chance. This is the last chance to sign up.

Speaker 2

You get the best price till June 30th if you sign up. Go to familylifetoday.com and sign up for the cruise.

If you'd rather call us, you can call us at 1-800-358-6329 and get more information. But the special pricing ends June 30th.

So I tell you, do it now and then jump back in and listen to this panel with the deals, the Wilsons, and the Griffiths.

Speaker 4

Well, okay, so let's jump in. We've got a bunch of questions here, and these have been submitted from some of you.

Jump in with the first one. How do you have a conversation about in-laws when it is a tender subject in your marriage?

The in-laws/outlaws question I can start.

Speaker 5

Mine's just like a real practical. So it might not be the best place to start, but we've just tried to live by the rule that if you're the child of those parents, you're the one who brings the issue.

So not the daughter-in-law, not the son-in-law, but you, being the biological now adult child, are the one who talks to the in-law. You guys talk first and kind of get the same game plan.

Then that child talks to the mom and dad because you know the ins and outs of your family. You know how you work, you know how they work, and you're going to be able to present it in such a kinder way and with a depth of understanding that maybe the new spouse doesn't quite know yet.

Speaker 6

I would just add to that. It's like it's a conversation about expectations. We all bring an expectation into the marriage of what the role of mom and dad, mother and father-in-law are going to have.

And so the expectation. I'm an only child and I moved away from home when I was 21 years old and said goodbye to mom and dad, thinking I'll see them a couple of times a year maybe. Andrea is from a larger family, and she just had the vision that mom and dad would be very much a part of the lives of her brother and sister and the nieces and nephews.

And so that was something we had to have some expectation about. We ended up moving geographically far away from her family. I didn't know for a decade that that was hard for her. I'd been away from my mom and dad for a long time, and that wasn't hard for me. I thought that was the expectation.

So you have to have the talk.

Speaker 4

I'll just add a little bit different angle to Andrea's point. What if the biological child doesn't want to talk to their parent or you don't have the same opinion? So if she's talking to me about something related to my parents and I don't agree with that, or we can't find unity or maybe we're unified, but I just don't have the courage to go and talk to my parent.

You know, that comes down to what is it in me that is held up or paralyzed about talking to my parents? And I often find that that's, you know, really tied to some stuff we talked about on day one. What's my baggage? What am I afraid of? What's it going to cost me to bring this up with my parent? And that's something I gotta do some deep diving about and try to figure out what that is in me. Because whatever that thing is, it's paralyzing me and it's gonna paralyze me for a really, really long time, whatever the subject might be.

And so you may have to really wrestle with that part of you to be able to get to a place where you can say, okay, I'm in agreement, this is a conversation we need to have, but I need to find a way to do that and maintain my own sense of self in the presence of my parents. And that's a, you know, that's a growing up moment is what I call that.

Leave and cleave doesn't stop when you get married. It's pretty much every day the rest of your life, leaving who you were with your parents, leaving what legacy they left in your heart that is lingering and holding you up in life. We're still leaving that stuff, no matter what age we are. And so I think it's sort of this ongoing process of examining ourselves, trying to figure out what's in the way.

Speaker 7

Making the decision to honor your spouse, not dishonoring your parents, but honoring your spouse above all others, putting them before all others.

So coming to that place, as you said, identifying what is it that I'm protecting, what is it that I'm afraid of, what is it that's keeping me from addressing this, from speaking to my parents, et cetera, is the thing that's keeping me from honoring my spouse.

Actually, that's a huge hurdle to overcome sometimes.

Speaker 4

Okay, I mentioned leaving and cleaving earlier. Let's start with this because we had another question. At what point does leaving and cleaving begin, and what does that look like in a healthy marriage?

Let's not assume everybody's on the same page. Somebody just kind of describe what leaving and cleaving is referring to.

And then let's just kind of think out loud about when does it begin? What does it look like?

Speaker 6

Genesis 2:24 is where those terms come from. A man shall leave his father and mother, cleave to his wife, and the two shall become one. So the reality, when you read Scripture, is that there's only one permanent, lifelong covenant relationship that's described, and it's not the parent-child relationship. The reality is that the parent-child relationship is a temporary, secondary relationship, with the primary covenant relationship being that of mom and dad. Therefore, you always have to prioritize your marriage over your children. That's step one.

But we raise our children to leave. Psalm 127 says, "Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are the children of one's youth." If you think about that, God says children are like arrows, and parents are like warriors in the hand of God. Children are like arrows in the hand of a parent. Our job as parents is to straighten the arrow. How many of you have discovered that the arrows arrive bent? They don't fly straight, you know.

Your job is a 20-year process of straightening that arrow through instruction, discipline, encouragement, and prayer, among other things. So you straighten the arrow, then you sharpen the arrow because you want that tip to be sharp when it arrives. It's meant to do damage to the powers of darkness. You straighten, you sharpen, and then you send the arrow, raising them to leave.

I used to say, "You straighten, you sharpen, and you shoot," but that didn't translate well. You straighten your children, you sharpen your children, and you send your children out. I've met some parents who wanted to do that in a different way, so don't tweet that we send them out now. But really, we are training them to live independently—not from mom and dad, but dependent upon the Lord, interdependent, not codependent, interdependent as husband and wife.

For that season, they now have the legs to stand on their own, and you take the position back as mom and dad as a coach, shouting encouragement from the sideline. You're not in the game yet.

Speaker 4

You know, leaving to me is that emotional process where we become our own person. In the ancient world, by the way, it had nothing to do with physical leaving because when a young man grew up and took a wife, he moved into the house with the parents. You can live in the same property, add a room onto the house, and still emotionally leave your parents.

I'm my own person. We're making our new covenant relationship, as Trent talked about, and we are leading forth out of this relationship rather than, you know, directly under the authority, if you will, of my parents. So it's the growing up process. I really think that is a lifelong process. Some of you heard us talk the other day, and it's... I'm still learning little residue on my heart from my childhood and things that I do now that I'm not sure I want to choose to do that anymore.

Like, it's still me learning how to leave that stuff and be the person that God has called me to be today in this relationship. So it's an ongoing journey of recognizing who we are and having our autonomy, I think, in relationship with the Lord.

Speaker 1

Next question?

Speaker 7

Sure.

Speaker 1

All right. How do you reestablish trust? My spouse makes promises that are not kept.

Speaker 7

I sense that the question is asked from someone whose trust has been violated, and they're in a way asking, how do I learn to trust someone who has proven themselves untrustworthy? The difficult answer is, perhaps you can't. You can't control how your spouse behaves. You can try. You can try to manage that behavior. But I think the question comes from the reality of, for assuming the best about the question, my spouse has proven to be someone who doesn't keep their promises. And so the trust is broken. How do I trust them? The answer likely is that you can't.

Underneath the question is, how then can I feel safe? How can I feel cared for? How can I feel cherished? How can I feel like I'm in a world that can be trusted if the climate of my home is not a trustworthy place? The resource for that always is the Lord Jesus Christ, right? The God who will never disappoint us, the God who will never fail us. Every spouse, in some way, even the best spouse, cannot approximate the perfection of Jesus.

Every opportunity of disappointment, unmet expectations, and trust broken—whether it's a big trust or just a little trust—can be significant. They forgot to pick up the thing at the grocery store, for example. This is such a habit, right? It's not that they cheated on me or anything; it's not a huge trust. It's just these little things that seem to kind of add up and irritate. Even those things, all of those are opportunities.

Certainly, the big failures of trust, such as adultery and other immorality or financial untrustworthiness, create instability or a lack of safety—a feeling of safety. All of those are opportunities for us to lean into the reliability of Christ. The Lord is using that opportunity in some way that can be inscrutable, that's mysterious, to help us trust him more and to rely on the bridegroom who never fails, who never lets us down.

So I know that's not an easy answer. What we want is, how do I make them a trustworthy person? You might not be able to.

Speaker 1

I think after being the not trustworthy person for a decade in our marriage, when the Lord took me through this confessional season and he helped me make a list, he said, "I need you to start with Ron." After I had, you know, surrendered to him, I came to Ron and I humbly just told him everything. I was out with all of it, and I saw on his face a look of, "Okay, well, thank you for sharing." I mean, I had blown out the bridge of trust. I had put him through a lot of pain.

It took time. I started praying, "Lord, help build this bridge of trust back." And it's been five years, and I've seen Him faithfully do that. It was not a one-and-done situation; it wasn't overnight. The Lord kept saying to me, "I need you to stay in your lane and do your work with me, regardless of how he responds. I just need you to walk faithfully with me. I will show you the way."

I kept faithfully praying that prayer, and I continued to pray that prayer because it was like an Indiana Jones bridge in one of those movies where those boards were just breaking, and it was just everybody was falling off of it. The Lord has been faithful, and I've had to stay in my lane—not to do penance, but to get right with God, like you said.

Speaker 4

I'll add the personal side to what she just said in a second. I really like the way the little three steps you guys talked about the other day: the gospel plus safety plus time.

Safety is, in this case, Nan becoming safe after not being safe, being trustworthy after not being trustworthy. And if you're the person who has caused the offense, if I could say it that way, whatever that means, it is your job to stay in your lane, as she said, and work out a new track record of safety, of trustworthiness.

At the end of the day, this person is working on forgiveness and then trying to trust you again. Those are two different things. I'm going to come back to that. But in the meantime, you've got to walk that path of repentance and showing yourself to be trustworthy.

And at some point, maybe depending on the size of the offense, at some point, maybe this person will be able to move back towards you again.

Speaker 1

And if it's so overwhelming that you can't do it as a couple, definitely get a mentor, definitely go to a pastor, definitely go to a counselor and get some help for it.

Don't stay in it alone or isolate in that pain. Get some.

Because those are just hard seasons and hard spaces to be in.

Speaker 4

I think they are. That's a good word. The counselor kind of helps give you, both of you, perspective on what's happening and how you can move forward gently and slowly.

And when you're frustrated with how the other person is responding or not responding, you know, they can help sort of head that off.

So if you try it and you feel like you're still stuck, get somebody else in there who can help.

Speaker 3

We're David Ann Wilson, and this is Family Family Life Today. And we're listening to a panel that's actually on the Love like you mean it cruise.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And I'll tell you what we're going to go right back to it because they were only halfway done. And you want to be on it next year. We'll tell you how in a little bit.

Speaker 4

Is there more to that? I'm sure there's more to that trust forgiveness thing.

Speaker 7

Can I ask Becky?

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 7

I know it was a long process, but what are maybe one or two things that you feel like I did, maybe that helped you see me as a trustworthy person?

Speaker 8

Yeah. I mean, for me, you've all kind of touched on this, but for me, the very first step was while I had been sinned against for sure, I had forgotten that I was also a sinner. And so I had to deal with my own sin first. I had to get on my face before the Lord, and I had to say, you know, you're the only one who can rebuild this.

And so I need you to forgive me. I need to know that you've forgiven Jared, and then I need you to help me to forgive him. And then I need you to show me ways that I can trust him again. The Lord loves you, and he is for you, and he is for your marriage.

You know, I'm not a prosperity gospelist. I can't promise you, like, exact responses, but I will tell you that he wants to answer that prayer if you will faithfully ask the Lord to change their heart, to change your heart, to reconcile you. I just have to believe he will do it. It'll take time and a lot of work, but I just think that he will honor that prayer in your marriage over time.

Speaker 7

I'll say one of the things, just a practical thing that I think may be applicable widely is in the early days, you know, when I experienced my turnaround, I didn't have a desire for pornography anymore. But she couldn't trust that simply because I said, "God fixed me." You know, she was like, "Well, this has not been the pattern of our life."

So one of the things I did, which is what a lot of men do, is I had accountability software on my devices, you know, Covenant Eyes and X3 Watch. I'm sure there's a bunch of other ones out there now, but I installed those on there. Well, one thing that guys do is they tend to get another guy as their accountability partner. And that might be good, but a lot of times it's guys who all struggle with the same thing, kind of keeping each other accountable. Right? "Hey, man, I fell." "Yeah, me too." "All right. Sorry about that."

I made Becky my accountability partner. So she got the reports of what I was looking at online, and that wasn't so much accountability in one sense, because I didn't have a desire to go places I shouldn't go. It was, in some ways on my part, a desire to show her this is what I'm looking at online. And so as much transparency as I could create, she could ask me any question: Where were you? What were you looking at? What are, you know, anything like that. I had to be an open book for as long as it took.

Speaker 4

Not begrudge that so very important, what he just said. So many people will sabotage the recovery process when they're the offender and they start putting expectations on when you should forgive me, when you should let me off the hook, when you're not going to bring this up anymore. How is it? Why do you think you have the right to look at my phone to tell me what I'm doing or who I'm talking to, whatever the thing is. And you don't. You don't. You don't have the right to dictate any of that. You made your bed. Isn't that what Mama told us? You made your bed, you get to lie in it.

And that's a super important part of earning the new track record of trustworthiness. If you're unwilling to subject yourself to that, then I'm not sure you're really repentant. I think that's a good sign that you're not truly humbled in this and therefore the other partner shouldn't trust you. That's super important because I think, and I'm kind of putting on my hat here for the church, we have done an injustice to partners when we've said to them, well, but he means well, so just forgive him and get on with it. We put all this pressure on the offended partner when the offender hasn't really done their work and they really haven't changed.

Then we just create a vulnerability for people who then get hurt over and over and over again. I think we need to really unwind that. Three weeks ago, four weeks ago, Nana and I had a little moment at our breakfast. I said something that triggered a pain in her that brought up stuff from, I don't know, 10, 20 years ago, you know, the old Ron. I said something and it triggered what the old Ron would have done and was doing. And that wasn't the context at all three weeks ago, but it sure triggered it in her.

To her credit, she took a minute, she did her four steps, something we're going to talk about tomorrow in our breakout. She worked through it and found a different path out. Rather than going to blame, shame, control, or escape, I, on the other hand, recognized very quickly, wow, this tap is something deep. I'm not sure what it was. I need to just shut my mouth and wait. And then when she began to talk, I own that those three words. I own that.

Speaker 1

I love those words.

Speaker 4

I own that.

Speaker 1

I love them. Say them again.

Speaker 4

There's a part of me, I own that. I own that. There's a part of me that wants to say, that was me 20 years ago. I am not that guy anymore. What in the world are we doing? Okay, that's that sort of prideful, self-justifying part of me that wants to be out from under who I was and doesn't want to see any pain in her eyes.

But here it is 20 years later and I'm seeing that pain. I can't do that. I have to own the fact that I did things that abandoned her in our relationship, that made her feel like she wasn't important and cherished in our relationship 20 years ago. And the consequences still show up today. I own that. Not I own that, but I own that, period.

I let her work through. I let her manage herself. I don't have to manage her. It's not my job. Remember, I don't get rid of her bags. She deals with her bags, but I gotta own mine. I own that.

So sometimes, even when you've worked through whatever the offense was and moved well past it, life triggers and it comes up again. It's okay. Take a deep breath, own it. Find your way through this particular moment.

Let's do another one. How do I get my husband to prefer me over Facebook?

Speaker 1

That was a Facebook reel. And those are funs.

Speaker 4

Instagram. They're hilarious. They're lots of funds.

By the way, this is a new term we've been talking about. I feel like I've been talking about this for three or four years now called phubbing. You guys know the word phubbing? P H U B B I N G. It's phone partner snubbing. It's when you snub your partner for the phone or the screen or the whatever, and you prefer an Instagram reel and time with.

You've seen it. People go to dinner and they sit down, nobody talks to anybody. Whole families are all staring at a screen—that's fubbing. And there is definitely something happening in that moment. This is a carefrontation. Is that your word?

Speaker 1

Yeah, that's my word. Carefrontation.

Speaker 4

Yeah. Where you say, you know, what I know about me is I'm feeling really disconnected from you right now. What I normally do is just yell and scream at you and call you an idiot because you're looking at the phone instead of talking to me when we're out on a date. But I'm not gonna do that right now.

Cause the truth is, you're just distracted by that thing. And I think you love me. I know you love me. But right now that's a distraction. So what I'm gonna do is I'm just gonna. Can I just ask you to set that down so we can have some time? I just really am looking forward to connecting with you right now.

That's a little process that allows you to say what you need to say and ask for what you need to ask for. And it gives the benefit of the doubt to the other person, who, of course, needs to have earned that benefit of the doubt. And hopefully you have. But it's a way of saying, I want to connect. Can you please set that aside?

Of course, the flip side of this is if you're the one getting distracted by phones and screens and whatever. Espn. That's my personality type, by the way. That was a joke. Espn. All right. Nobody got it. If you're that person, then, yeah. Learning the discipline of putting the phone down, turning the TV off, whatever it is, like, that's a really important thing to be able to do.

Speaker 1

What do y' all think real quick.

Speaker 7

With 14 seconds left?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 7

That was a really good answer. My immediate thought was maybe start an account and watch you on the reels.

Speaker 1

Oh, he's getting creative.

Speaker 7

You can't beat them. Join them. That's a terrible answer. Go with Ron's answer. It's much better.

Speaker 4

Anybody else, final thought?

Speaker 8

My real quick thing was just going to be, this is what I always recommend to young couples. Whatever the offending thing is that you're struggling with, set however many times a month.

It can't be. I know. With especially if you have young kids or whatever, you can't do it every week, but maybe once a month, twice a month, there's gonna be one night of none of whatever the offense is.

So if it's the phone, we're gonna have a date night once a month, and there is no phone coming with us.

Speaker 4

Good.

Speaker 8

It's left in the car.

Speaker 4

Wow. Nice.

Speaker 1

Good job.

Speaker 4

A little discipline goes a long way.

Speaker 7

Some applause there.

Speaker 4

Yeah. Would you in fact, speaking of applause, would you thank our panel tonight for being here? Thanks, everybody.

Speaker 2

Well, Dave and Ann Wilson, this family life today. And I tell you what, I don't think I could leave my phone in the car.

Speaker 3

I was just thinking that they left their phones in the car.

Speaker 2

I don't know if I could do that for a couple hours.

Speaker 3

I don't know if you could either.

Speaker 2

Yeah, well, I'm definitely taking my phone on the cruise next year in February. How's that for a transition to say you need to be on the cruise with us February 14th to 21st, 2026?

The kind of stuff you just heard happens every day, every night. There's workshops, there's keynote talks like that. It's fab. There's bands, there's comedians, there's sunshine. The whole boat is nobody but us.

Speaker 3

It's so fun. And listen to this. Dennis Rainey and Barbara are going to be back. Bob Lapine will be there. That's going to really be fun to have them.

Speaker 2

It's going to be great. Here's how you can sign up. Go to familylife today.com and sign up there. Or you can give us a call at 1-800-358-6329.

Get more information. You don't need more information. You got everything you need to know. Just sign up. You won't regret it. It'll be a week that will literally change your life, change your marriage, change your legacy.

And by the way, the special pricing that you can get right now ends June 30th. So I'd make the call. I go to the website familylife today.com right now.

Speaker 3

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