FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

You cannot get healed without community. When I let my friends be my friends and started praying with them, confessing my faults one to another. That scripture is so key.

Confess your faults one to another. Pray for one another that healing may come. My dad always says, repentance brings forgiveness of sin. Confession to man brings healing.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is Family Life Today.

If you are walking by a bookstore or a book rack, like at the airport, which we do a lot, and you saw this title, *When Faith Disappoints*, would you pick it up?

Speaker 2

Here's my thought. When we started, I thought, dave, soon as I saw this book I like Dave, is gonna resonate and love this book because of your doubt, your skepticism and your disappointment.

Speaker 3

You know me well. If I saw this, I would grab it immediately right now.

And we've got the author, Lisa Fields, here. Seriously, Lisa, is this your struggle, your journey as well?

When Faith Disappoints. The gap between what we believe and what we experience.

Is this like a memoir or not?

Speaker 1

I mean, in some aspects it is a memoir because I share a lot of my personal struggles. I opened it up talking about my faith crisis as a seminary student.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

And so you're thinking, why would you have a faith crisis while you're training for ministry?

Speaker 2

This is tough.

Speaker 3

You know why she's laughing?

Speaker 2

This is totally him. We are in full-time vocational work, serving Jesus on crew staff, discipling, and sharing the gospel.

I come in one day, and Dave's on the couch with his Bible. He goes, "I don't even know if any of this is real. I don't even know if it's true."

So you're saying you're in seminary?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

And you have that?

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I was watching the news or something. Something came across. I don't know if it was YouTube or whatever.

Speaker 3

By the way, the news will do it to you. That'll do it.

Speaker 1

And it was kids being murdered by terrorists, like babies. And we were studying the problem of evil in class. And I'm just like, you know, I really don't get it. Like, if you're all knowing, all powerful, all loving, like it doesn't make sense for you not to protect these babies. I can understand adults sometimes, you know, you think, well, they did something at some point. You know, you kind of rationalize it. But when it comes to children, I feel like it pulls on your heartstrings. Indifferent.

And so I just started grappling. I knew the arguments. You know, I can intellectually offer the arguments, but they didn't sit right with me emotionally. And so I remember going to my professor, Dr. Leo Perston, my New Testament professor. And I always could go to him during office hours and just have conversation. I was like, doctor.

Speaker 3

So he knew you. You were in there?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3

Okay.

Speaker 1

And I had many of his class. And so I'm just like, Dr. Purser. I don't know what to believe.

Like, I'm struggling because I'm thinking about a loving, all powerful, all knowing God allowing these kids to be murdered and not intervening. I just. I don't know what to think. I feel like I'm about to lose my faith.

And all he said to me was, me, too.

Speaker 2

Whoa.

Speaker 3

That was his answer.

Speaker 1

And I was thinking that we were going to go deep. And he just said, me, too. And then he was like, all right, chapel's about to start. You ready?

Speaker 2

Wait, so what did that do?

Speaker 3

Well, I mean, I love that story in your book. When I read that, I'm like, what a great answer. How did it impact you?

Speaker 1

It let me know that this was normal. Like, I thought that my faith was unraveling.

And here is a professor with a PhD in New Testament, tons of ministry experience, still teaching, wrestles with that, too.

Like, there's not a problem. That's, like, unique to me.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1

And that my faith was gonna be okay.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And I was free to wrestle and God was gonna keep me. And it's funny, all of that came from two words.

Speaker 3

Me too.

Speaker 1

That I didn't need him to go deep. He knew that we already were going deep in class.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So he didn't need to add to that. And that actually helped me, like, shape how I do ministry.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Tell our listeners about your ministry.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I mean, you got, like 18,000 things going on.

Speaker 2

You're pretty amazing.

Speaker 1

So I'm the founder and CEO of the Jude 3 Project, which is a Christian apologetics organization dedicated to equipping black Christians and engaging skeptics. And so we've done that for over a decade. We started back in 2014. I didn't know it was gonna become all that it has become. I just started it as a passion.

I designed a website on Squarespace and designed a logo on the app called Word Swag and put it together. It kind of started as a blog. Then we had our first event on July 12, 2014, really pulling on my PK (preacher's kid) background and recruiting pastors in the city based on my dad's reputation to come to an event.

Speaker 3

Was that in Jacksonville?

Speaker 1

Yeah, to help equip young pastors in apologetics.

Speaker 3

Now, why the focus narrow? Not narrow, but, you know, black community in that focus.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Well, when I got immersed in apologetics in undergrad and I started engaging apologists, I didn't see any African Americans leading in the space. I felt like, man, there should be someone to help bridge the gap for our community.

I remember reaching out to a local pastor in Jacksonville who had a big church. I was like, man, I know you have a passion for apologetics. You should do something about this.

And that was the one email he has never responded to.

Speaker 3

Really? Didn't even respond?

Speaker 1

No.

Speaker 3

So you said, I'm gonna do it.

Speaker 2

Wait, why do you think he didn't respond?

Speaker 1

I guess out of God's providence, he was like, I didn't call him to do it. I called you to do it.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 1

And that led me down a path to, like, desire to equip my community. But I like to think of what we do, like hip hop. We tailor it for our community, but it reaches everyone.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And we didn't know till lunch. One of our former Detroit Lions players that was in our Bible study in our home almost every week. Don Carey works with you now.

Speaker 1

Yes. Yeah, he's our coo.

Speaker 3

I mean, he was the guy that would come to Bible study. I'm like, please don't ask another question. Because he had such a heart for apologetics, defending the faith, understanding the faith.

So where did that come from for you? If you grew up a pastor's kid, do you always have that?

Speaker 1

No, I didn't want to be in ministry at all because I'm a pastor's kid.

Speaker 3

Yeah, you saw it.

Speaker 1

I have great kids, but I just understand that ministry is all consuming.

Like, people come home with you.

Like, it's just we had to stay at church so late after it was over.

My whole dream was like, when I grow up, I'm going to leave when church is over.

Speaker 2

That was my dream too, Lisa. And it never happened.

Speaker 3

Sometimes we sneak out the back door, but most of the time, we're there a long time.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So my goal was to be a stockbroker in the fifth grade. I was in the magnet program.

Speaker 3

Really?

Speaker 1

And we played the stock market game.

Speaker 3

Really? In fifth grade?

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I was like, oh, this is what I'm gonna do with my life. I can make a lot of money. And God had different plans.

So I was an investment finance major at the University of North Florida, and I took a New Testament class as an elective, thinking it would be like Sunday school. I was not prepared for New Testament at University of North Florida.

And our textbook was Bart Ehrman, Intro to New Testament.

Speaker 3

Isn't Bart atheist? Yeah, he went on a journey, right?

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I think he was agnostic at the time. Somebody told me he's atheist now, but so his book on Intro to the New Testament does not look like a Sunday school book.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so the first day of class, my professor said, I'm gonna change everything you think you know about Jesus. And that was the first indicator that this was not gonna be Sunday school.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 2

What did you think? Like, what was going on in your head? Like, wait a minute.

Speaker 1

Yes. This is not what I signed up for. And so kind of sent me spiraling because I never questioned the Bible.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Like my parents, I grew up. This was what we believed. This is the final authority. That's it. So I didn't know. Like, I didn't think critically about where the Bible came from. I kind of just thought it just came from the sky one day, and that's what we believe. That was the most that I had thought about it.

I grew up in a Christian family, elementary school, Christian school, you know, Christian bubble. And so that was the first time I had to wrestle with my faith. My dad introduced me to apologetics to help me get through that, and that kind of fed my quest for apologetics. I ended up switching my major into communication and religious studies, and would later go on to seminary.

Speaker 2

Wow, that is such a God story right there. And I'm thinking, like, I was taking. I took a class, it was a New Testament class at the University of Kentucky.

And the same thing kind of happened, like, oh, this will be interesting. This will be great. And, man, it became a war zone. Because everything he was saying at the university was the opposite of my new faith.

But it made me dig and want to be able to explain and prove what I believed was correct. It sounds like you went through that whole journey.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But you've also done some documentaries.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I mean, you've done a lot in these 10 years.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

What are you most passionate about of all these things? All of it.

Speaker 1

All of it. But in particular, especially when we're on college campuses, because my story starts on the college campus when I hear students say, "Man, now I know what I believe is true." That, to me, gives me this visual of Jude when he says, "snatching them from the fire." Because I remember being that student.

Whenever I'm able to talk to a student and we get to snatch them from the fire, where they were just like, almost gone, and we pull them back in, or they've stepped out on the faith and we pull them back in, that just really encourages me.

We do a series called "Why Don't Go" with young adults who left the faith. We sit around a roundtable, and I just listen to their grievances. People kind of got mad at me when I first did it because they were like, "You're not going to defend the church." They said, "You just listen to them." And I'm like, "Okay, guys, we're trying to bring them back in. You don't do that by arguing with them."

Since we've done that, two of them have re-engaged with the church again, just by listening. It wasn't about proving that the church was the best place to be; it was about listening. Once they felt heard, they were more open to a new perspective.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Right.

So do you think, you know, I'm looking at your subtitle, the gap between what we believe and what we experience. I mean, it is a book, but this is a conversation you've been having and thinking about for decades.

Do you feel like all Christians are disappointed at some point in their faith?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think that's the Christian struggle. I mean, you look through scripture, look at the psalms, it's all filled with disappointment.

Like, I thought it was going to go one way. Psalm 73 is one of my favorite ASAP. And I've looked at the prosperity of the wicked.

Like, discouragement.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

Was their disappointment. Like, this is not. Yeah.

And so it is a constant theme in Scripture that we will be disappointed with the way life happens. It will go different than what we hope for.

But that is something that is common. And we shouldn't feel like, oh, I'm a bad person for feeling disappointed.

Speaker 3

And yet often we do. It's like the silent, I can't say this out loud to anybody, at least in my Bible study or in my church.

Yet you went to your Prof. Right away. Is that one way to deal with it?

Is it something we need to say out loud and say, I'm struggling. Help me out of this struggle, or in the middle of this struggle?

Speaker 2

I think it's the gap.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I believe that you have to get it out of your mouth to get it out of your heart.

Speaker 2

Oh, that's good.

Speaker 1

And if we don't put language to it, we just become Bitter. And then bitterness has roots and it destroys everything. And I always say when bitterness takes root in your heart, truth gets distorted in your mind.

Speaker 3

Say that again.

Speaker 1

When bitterness takes root in your heart, truth gets distorted in your mind. And so oftentimes we're trying to get people to see truth and we're like, why can't they see it? And it's just like their heart is bitter.

Speaker 2

I'm thinking of parents that are listening who have a lot of high school age kids or college age kids, or even middle schoolers, and their kids are venting all this stuff. As a parent, you're freaking out because you're wondering, are they going to leave the faith?

So, what would you say to the parent that's in that situation? You don't even understand; the things that they are saying are exactly opposite of what they've been taught their whole lives.

Speaker 1

I would say listen, but also tell them about the times that you've been deeply disappointed. Tell them about the questions you had to wade through. So it normalizes it and they see hope at the end.

So we were doing this ACTS initiative I told you about with students asking them questions. And one of the students said, "I was so angry at God when my mom got diagnosed with breast cancer." She was like, "I was watching her take chemo and she's just getting weaker and weaker."

And she said, "I became more angry and more angry." And she said what pulled me out of that was to see my mom still praise God.

Speaker 3

Really?

Speaker 1

She was like, because I'm watching her suffer, but she's actually suffering.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And in the midst of her suffering, she knows how much pain she's in, that she was still pulling hope from her relationship with God.

Speaker 2

That's really good.

Speaker 1

That pulled her out of the anger that she had towards God.

Speaker 3

So it wasn't an argument, it wasn't a theological truth. It wasn't even a Bible verse. It was a model.

Speaker 2

And you're saying, get it out of their mouths before it gets to their heart. Is that what it is?

Speaker 1

Get it out of their mouth so they could get it out of their heart.

Speaker 2

Oh, see, and as parents, we get worried when they verbalize it. But you're saying, no, no, no, like that's a good thing for them to verbalize what they're feeling.

I remember, I think our son was 9, our oldest son, and we had been talking about David and Goliath. At the end of that story, he said, well, I don't even understand, like it says in the Bible, do not kill. But then David, this young guy, chops off this guy's head and we're celebrating that. It doesn't even make sense.

And I remember Dave came into the room and he said, "CJ, that is the best question ever." Because I struggle with those same kind of questions. It doesn't even make sense. Those words that Dave used, I have struggled with the same ideas.

Speaker 3

Me too.

Speaker 2

That for our son, who's very intellectual, they're all very intellectual.

But for that son, it just gave him this piece of like, oh, okay.

It was the exact same as your professor.

Me too. It's reassuring to your heart.

There's not something wrong with me or even my faith necessarily.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And you're creating that space so they will continue to come to you. Because if you shut them down, they're gonna go to somebody else to get perspective, and that person may believe something different.

We had one girl that left the faith that I was talking to, and she went to like cometicism and Egyptology and African spirituality. She has like a buffet style thing she's doing. I asked her what was the deciding factor, and she said, "When my boyfriend died, I started having these visions, and he would come to me and he would tell me things about the future that actually happened. I went to my church, and they didn't believe in the supernatural still happening. And so they shut me down. Then my friend invited me to this dream mystic event, and they explained everything that I was feeling."

Wow. And so it's like what happens when you shut people down? You push them into other arms. Instead of saying, "Hey, let's talk about this. Let's process this. Let's look at the scriptures, see what the scriptures have to say about this. Let's look at what people that are scholars have to say about this to keep them talking." That actually keeps them safe. But if you push them away, you push them into the arms of another belief system.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I've been reading and seeing that more and more of Gen Z kids are walking into spirituality, not necessarily Christianity. Are you seeing that?

Speaker 1

Yeah, they want.

Speaker 2

Why is that?

Speaker 1

Experiences. They want some kind of supernatural experience. So experience is one. And then they're looking for peace. Talking to students on campus, I often ask, "Why are you using sage? Why are you using crystals?" They respond, "I'm trying to cleanse my atmosphere from the negative energy." So that's a peace question. They're looking for a peace that surpasses all understanding.

The light bulb should go off. As a believer, you should say, "Okay, let's talk about the peace that Jesus offers." However, if you shun them and say, "Oh man, look at them engaging in the demonic and occult," and push them away, you never get to actually invite them to a relationship with Jesus.

Speaker 2

If that student would have come to you, said, I'm having these visions of my boyfriend coming to me, what would you have said?

Speaker 1

Let's talk about it. What does the vision look like? What has he told you about the future that has actually happened? Like, what do you think he's trying to communicate to you? How does that inform your faith?

I think all of those kind of probing questions, those open-ended questions, are important. I used to work in banking after undergrad because I needed a job. I worked at Bank of America and Merrill Lynch for a bit before I went off to seminary.

They would always tell us, as bankers, when people come into your office, to ask open-ended questions. You want to keep the conversation going. You don't want to just say, "Hey, do you want another checking account?" Of course, I would get a "no" in response. Instead, you should ask them, "What are your financial goals?" These types of questions help to keep the conversation going and develop the relationship, deepening the connection.

Speaker 3

Sort of what we do here. You know, it's interesting as I heard your story and read you, I mean, this struggle doesn't just end. You talked about during the pandemic, you had another struggle.

Speaker 1

Explain that. Yeah, so the pandemic was just really hard, as we all know. I remember waking up just like, this can't be real. Like every morning for like two weeks, like, tell me I was having a bad dream.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So in the midst of the pandemic, my grandfather passed away, and we're a very close-knit family. Sunday dinners were a tradition at my grandparents' house, and I grew up in a very close family. We were so close that my mom's mom would come over to my other grandparents' house, and we would have Sunday dinner together.

This was the first person that I ever lost who was close to me—my grandfather. He and my grandmother had been married for over 62 years when he passed. It was just very hard to process that loss, especially during COVID. With masks in place, I couldn't really hug anyone. I was scared to hug my grandmother because I didn't want to give her COVID; she was already older and frail. It was a frightening time, and I felt scared just to be around family.

As I was getting ready for my granddad's funeral, I received a text that my mentor and my apologetics hero had died. I was overwhelmed. I just collapsed and thought, "God, what's going on?" It was COVID this, and then that loss, but at the same time, our organization was taking off. I was so busy with that that I wasn't spending time with the Lord.

Speaker 2

You couldn't grieve even.

Speaker 1

So there was a buildup of years of almost burning myself out, traveling, fundraising, speaking, doing all the things where you kind of lose the intimacy with the Lord because you're always doing his work, but not actually being with him.

Speaker 2

We know.

Speaker 1

And so all of that kind of came together, and it was just like, I hit a wall. And then on top of that, there was a scandal after the hero that passed. And so I was like, God, what is this? I always say, my hero died twice: when he died and then when the image I had of him died. And so all of that kept me in crisis.

Like, do I want to do ministry? Is ministry just a setup for failure? Do you escape this with success, really? Or do you just go to the top of the ladder and you collapse? Those were all the fears. God, this feels like these are not the goals I wanted. These are the goals you had. I wanted to be a stockbroker working on Wall Street. Like, I didn't pick this life for myself. This is the life you picked.

And so I remember in therapy, my therapist said, what do you think about God? And I said, I resent him.

Speaker 3

I resent him.

Speaker 1

Because I feel like he only answers the prayers that have to do with ministry, but not to do with me. And that was the breakthrough moment.

Speaker 2

That's a crisis of faith right there.

Speaker 3

How was that a breakthrough?

Speaker 1

Because I had to get it out of my mouth to get it out of my heart, I didn't even know that I had built up the resentment towards God. That was when I could start working through restarting a part of the gap in the devotional life I didn't realize was resentment. You don't want to spend time with someone you resent.

Once I started doing that and doing the work, I began to get back to myself because I felt like I was disconnected. I don't know if y'all have ever felt this way, but things are moving so fast. When you're on accelerate, it feels like you're not even a part of it, like you're disconnected from your body.

Speaker 2

Like, you're watching your life.

Speaker 1

You're watching everything happen. Everybody's like, that's so great. So many people are being transformed. And you start to resent the celebration because you're like, you don't know what it's doing to me.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yeah. So how'd you dig out of that.

Speaker 1

Therapy prayer and letting my friends be my friends.

Speaker 3

What's that mean?

Speaker 1

As a person that does ministry work? You have friends that are Christians that don't do ministry work. And they're like, you're the strongest person.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And everything kind of gets defaulted to you.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1

And you start getting in this mode where you're the hero in your group, you're the go to person. And my therapist asked me, she was like, you're tired of being the go to person, but you get something from it, don't you?

Speaker 3

What do you get?

Speaker 1

It's an ego boost.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

They need me.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And they need me. I'm the one helping.

And when I let my friends be my friends and started praying with them, confessing my faults one to another, that scripture is so key. Confess your faults one to another, pray for one another, that healing may come.

My dad always says, repentance brings forgiveness of sin. Confession to man brings healing.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

That's good that you cannot get healed without community.

And so I started to allow my friends to be my friends. I started to be really intentional about therapy. I started to be really intentional about my devotion.

And then I watched the integration come in my life and the wholeness come in my life.

And so that has really helped with ministry.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And the book wouldn't have happened had I not went through that process, because I'm walking through the journey that I've experienced with people.

Speaker 2

That's really sweet. As you were talking, I wrote down the question, do you have resentment toward God? I think every single person at some point feels that.

As we talked about, it's in the psalms, it's all over Scripture. And I think that'd be a really good question to ask your kids, to ask your spouse.

As you said, get it out of your mouth so you can get it out of your mouth.

Speaker 3

That'll preach.

Speaker 2

It will preach. It does preach. And I think that's a really good thing to pose as a parent. We as parents don't want to hear all that stuff sometimes because it scares us.

But it's really good for our kids to get that out of their mouths to talk about it and to say, "me too," because I guarantee as an adult, there's been something that has happened in your life that's made you feel the very same thing.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Don't say to your kid, "I can't believe you think that. Yeah, I've never thought that." Even if you've never thought that, don't say it out loud. Just say, "Tell me more, you know, on that struggle."

But I would think most people, if not all people, would say, "Me too. Yeah, you know, I've been there."

So, you know, we would love you as an individual or even as a parent to get this book. When faith disappoints, we'll send it to you for free. Just send us a gift financially to support Family Life.

Speaker 2

But is it free then?

Speaker 3

It's not really free, but any amount of gift, it doesn't matter how much.

Speaker 2

We'll send you the book.

Speaker 3

We will send you the book. Go to familylifetoday.com you can do that there. Or call us at 1-800-358-6329. If you want to know it the other way. It's 800F, as in family, L as in life and the word today.

Speaker 2

We're going to talk about this again tomorrow.

Speaker 3

Yeah, we want to get into pain points because those are real. Yeah, I mean, we all know that. But if you don't know what we're talking about, you better stay tuned for tomorrow.

Speaker 2

Family Life today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.