FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Hey, can you speak in an English accent?

Speaker 2

Do not do that to me. Do not do that to me.

Speaker 1

No, you.

Speaker 2

Do you really want to start that way?

Speaker 1

You're good. You're good. Go ahead.

Speaker 2

My sons told me when I tried it once in a sermon. Don't you ever, dad, ever.

Speaker 1

But you can do.

Speaker 2

Try to do an accent.

Speaker 1

Go ahead.

Speaker 2

A British accent. My name's Fringo. I play the drum. See, I couldn't do.

Speaker 1

No, that was really good.

Speaker 2

I played the drums.

Speaker 1

Yeah. We have an English accent in the studio today. He's one of our favorites. The question with Sam Alberry is, can you speak in an English accent?

Speaker 2

I mean, American English. He could definitely do an English accent.

Speaker 3

I've been training my whole life for this very moment.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 1

And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us@familylifetoday.com. this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 2

Here. I've got a serious question for the two scholars sitting here. Dan Wilson and Sam Albert are sitting in the Family Life Today studio.

Here's my question. I actually wrote it down. I said, I'm going to give you two beliefs. You tell me which one's most important.

Speaker 1

Oh, I'm gonna say whatever.

Speaker 2

Sam says whatever a person believes about God or whatever a person believes about themselves. Which one's most important?

Speaker 1

I would say God.

Speaker 3

Yeah, same.

Speaker 2

Oh, is that easy? There wasn't even a, you know, that.

Speaker 1

Wasn'T very scholarly, was it?

Speaker 3

Was it Tozer who said what someone thinks of God is the most revealing thing about them?

Speaker 1

Well, I think that you can't understand who you are unless you understand who God is.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Okay. So it wasn't that hard of a question. But what I wanted to get at was what we believe about ourselves is critical as well, right?

Speaker 1

I think so, yeah.

Speaker 3

It's an outworking of our theology. So what we believe about ourselves actually also reveals what we believe about God.

Speaker 2

So the question for Sam is you've been writing and thinking about this a lot. I don't know what you would call it, but I would call it identity. You know, who we are in Christ. So let's talk about that.

I mean, I read your book, "Here It Is: One with My Lord, the Life Changing Reality of Being in Christ." When I hear those two words, "in Christ," I'm thinking identity—who I am, my belief about who I am.

To help our listeners understand, what does that mean to be in Christ? You've got five seconds.

Speaker 3

In which accent? Yeah, this is the key thing. The New Testament's main way of speaking about our faith is different from our main way of speaking about our faith. We use the word Christian to describe being a follower of Jesus. The New Testament uses the language of being in him, being in Christ, being in Jesus. So right out of the bat, I'm assuming if the New Testament's main way of talking about what it means to follow Jesus is different from our main way, we've missed something.

The New Testament's main way is that spatial language of being in Jesus. So the key to knowing who we are as believers is knowing actually where we are. We are in Christ, and that's a real thing. We have a spiritual location right now. We're physically geographically sat. We're here in Orlando, Florida. Spiritually, we are in Jesus at the right hand of God in the heavenly realms.

So that actually frames everything else. It means we have two addresses, two locations. And it also means that our relationship to Jesus, it's not distant. Even the language of following Jesus implies he's a speck on the horizon that I'm trying to keep up with. But being in Jesus means I can't be closer to Him. He's pulled us into his own heart in that profounder way that he's united us to Himself.

Speaker 1

I like that. Don't you like that?

Speaker 2

That's beautiful.

Speaker 1

I mean, I'm just thinking of, as you talk to kids, as you talk to anyone, when you ask them, are you a Christian? I generally don't even ask that question.

But I will ask, are you a Christ follower? But you're right, that's kind of, Are you. Do you see him up there and are you following Him?

It's too distant. In a way, it is.

Speaker 3

I mean, it's still a biblical category, of course, but it's interesting. There's a by far and away the most common New Testament category is that being in Jesus. So we might say to someone, do you follow Jesus? Do you know Jesus? Do you believe in Jesus?

But the New Testament, you know, Paul just uses the language so casually and assumes his readers are as familiar with it as he is. He'll say of people, you know, they were in Christ before I was. Well, as we would say, they became Christians before I did, or they knew Jesus before I did.

And it's not just a you say tomato, I say tomato kind of thing. It actually frames how we see our relationship to Jesus. The language that we use to describe it reflects how we see it. So if we don't ever use that language or peer into what that language means of being in him, then we're going to miss some important aspects of our relationship to him.

Speaker 1

Tell us why you wrote this. Why did you want to write about this? This must be important to you.

Speaker 3

It is. It's deeply important. If we're allowed a favorite doctrine, I think this is mine. I stumbled into this about 15 years ago. I was doing some reading somewhere, and someone mentioned union with Christ. I thought, I've not really kind of explored that category before. I just assumed it was some arcane little theological term that floats around in midair, that doesn't really mean anything.

But the more I began to kind of look at it and study it and read on it, and particularly look at how the New Testament uses that language, the more I realized I was now able to see the Christian life so much more clearly in the book. I liken it to when I first realized I needed glasses to see that the departures boarded at Paddington Station in London. I got the glasses and could now see the departures board, but I hadn't realized how much I hadn't been seeing everything else.

It wasn't just the departures board I could now see; I could see detail in the distance in a way I hadn't before. A similar thing happened with this. As I began to understand that category of being in Jesus, I began to understand the Christian life more. Everything just became more sharply defined in HD. It was just kind of so much clearer.

So it is the lens through which we're meant to see our whole Christian life, rather than being some little piece of theology that sort of sits somewhere in our peripheral vision. It is the actual lens through which we see things most clearly.

Speaker 2

It was interesting, Sam, when I read that in your book just the other day. We were driving to the airport, and it was sunny, and I didn't have any sunglasses. It was in Ann's car.

So I'm like, I don't have any sunglasses. She goes, here, use mine. So she gives me her sunglasses, I put them on, and I'm like, are these prescription? Because I can see signs half a mile away I've never seen before.

I mean, I was like, okay, I guess I need at least readers. So I had to.

Speaker 1

That was distance, though. You probably need both.

Speaker 2

I probably do, but, I mean, these were progressives. It was like what you just said. It was like. It wasn't just, oh, it's a little better. It was like, oh, my goodness, I have been missing so much.

Speaker 3

So when you say, been missing so many road signs.

Speaker 2

Exactly. You know, why did I get off in this section? It. Because I couldn't know.

But I mean, as you talk about that theologically, with your understanding of in Christ, as you think of something that just went, whoa, I understand something I never understood before.

What's one of the first things that comes to your mind?

Speaker 3

The atonement. I mean, I always understood Jesus died for my sins in my place. I always understood that and grasped that and cherished that.

But that is so much clearer in the light of our union with Jesus, because I say in the book, my favorite atheist was Christopher Hitchens. Always had a soft spot for Christopher Hitchens.

Speaker 1

Why is that?

Speaker 2

Not everybody has a favorite atheist. By the way, when I read that.

Speaker 3

I'm like, oh, okay, new Christian icebreaker question.

Speaker 2

Who's your favorite?

Speaker 3

He just was willing to talk to anyone. He wasn't above debating regular church pastors. He was willing to concede when he lost a debate.

Speaker 1

So there's a humbleness, there's a kind of.

Speaker 3

He had an integrity to his own beliefs. He wasn't nasty.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I mean, he was an amazing mind and could destroy people who hadn't thought things through.

But I remember watching him debate once, and he said the most, and I'm paraphrasing, the most abhorrent tenet of the Christian faith is the idea that someone can take your place and bear your sins for you.

Because he said it's so profoundly unjust.

Speaker 1

Interesting.

Speaker 3

And there are verses in the Bible that would look like they're saying the same thing. The proverbs were told that, you know, acquitting the guilty is something the Lord hates. So, you know, the question is, well, how is it right for him?

I know Jesus has died for me and taken my sins on himself, but how can I be sure that was the right thing for God to do? Did he have to sort of slightly compromise his own standards, you know, bend the rules a bit for that to happen?

Union with Christ helps us because the Bible likens our union to Jesus to a marriage. And I've officiated enough weddings. You know, what is belongs to the one is now the property of the other.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I know she was okay.

Speaker 3

All that I have, I give to you.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And so because we're united to Jesus, it is right for him to take our sins on himself, and it's right for him to give us his righteousness that the estate of the one can rightfully become the property of the other. So my sins can become his. And his righteousness can become mine.

And God isn't fiddling the books. He's not doing something dodgy. This is not some underhanded, sketchy thing Paul can say in Romans 3. He is both just and the one who justifies. He can justify us justly, and so nothing unethical is going on. We can be rightly made right with God and he's upholding his integrity. He's not feeling bad about what he's just done for us.

So that's one example of something that kind of fell into place a little more clearly. And it certainly helped as I've talked to people who don't share my faith about, you know, what it means for Jesus to die for us, how that's a good thing, a right thing.

Speaker 1

And is that how you would have debated and answered your favorite atheist? Is that what you would have said?

Speaker 3

I would have tried to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

How do you think he would have responded to that?

Speaker 3

Oh, I have no idea. I have no idea. I'm sure he would have had some, some brilliant retort, but that is the truthful response. I mean, that's a, that's an honourable question, but the Bible has an honorable answer to it. So that's one area.

Another area is holiness and the pursuit of holiness. Because that has always felt like I'm trying to be something that is alien to me. Sometimes the little voice of temptation will say something like, why are you trying to be this other guy that you're clearly not? Come on, we know who you really are. Stop trying to put on this Christian thing. It doesn't fit.

Union with Christ means that actually, because I'm in him. Paul says, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. We are made new by being united to him in such a way that who I now am at my core is who I am in Jesus. Paul says in Galatians 2:20, I no longer live the life I live. I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me.

So the old self has died in Jesus and we've been given newness in Jesus. Which means when I'm pursuing holiness, I'm not going against the grain of who I am deep down. I'm actually going with the grain of who I most truly am deep down. And it's now sin that is going against the grain of who I really am, not obedience.

Speaker 1

That's a big difference.

Speaker 3

That's a huge difference. That's a big mental shift. Because if holiness always feels like it's this utterly alien, like me trying to do an American accent kind of thing, I can't pull that off and it sounds fake and weird when I try, then that's not going to motivate you to do it.

Whereas if holiness is actually going with the grain of who I most truly am now, I still know I'm not going to be perfectly holy this side of Christ's return. But it means I'm not wasting my time trying to do something that's never going to gain traction. I can and should expect to grow in godliness.

Speaker 1

What does that look like, practically? What do you think?

Speaker 2

Well, I mean, I was going to ask you. Are you saying we are not sinners who sometimes do righteous acts and we are saints who sometimes sin? You know, you've heard that argument.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll have my cake and eat it. I am a sinner who is a saint. I'm a sinner who's been made new in Jesus.

And my sinful nature is now not the thing that is most defining of me, but my identity in Jesus. His righteousness is now defining me and becoming a reality bit by bit in my life.

So what it means in practice is that as I wrestle with temptation, wrestle with sin, whatever it might be on a given day, I can say to myself, come on, son, that's not you now.

Speaker 1

Oh, see, that's so good. Because we generally can do the opposite. I'm thinking of the times I've been in bed, especially as a young mom, or I failed, and I feel like I'm not living up to God's standard.

And the little voice in my head would say, you are a failure as a mom. What you did today proved that you are a failure. And man, I can wallow and go down that rabbit trail of being unworthy.

And as we started talking about identity, I think the little voice says, you're fake. You're a fake.

Speaker 3

And you look around on a Sunday morning and you think it seems to work for everybody else, and I'm the only one who doesn't seem to be able to figure this out.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

And they're all thinking the same thing about you.

Speaker 1

Ye, exactly.

Speaker 3

I think that's one of the devil's biggest lies.

Speaker 1

Me too.

Speaker 3

And like you say, we tumble down that rabbit hole and then.

Speaker 1

And it does no good.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And it makes us feel as though sin is inevitable.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

Which is again, why in Romans 6, when Paul raises the question, shall we go on sinning? I don't think that's a mischievous question. I think it's someone asking in despair, is this it? Now, for the rest of my Christian life, am I bound to sin? Am I a complete failure?

And Paul is saying, by no means, because you know, you died in Christ, you've been given a new relationship to sin that has fundamentally changed in Christ. So I need that pep talk. Not just every day, but moment by moment, through the day as I'm navigating the day.

And my response is to whatever I'm doing, whatever's going on around me, to keep reminding myself of who I am.

Speaker 1

So I'm thinking of the listener who's driving or working out or whatever, and they're thinking, yeah, I do that. I go down the rabbit hole of the negative. And you're saying, when we are in him, here's what you can do.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And just to even know that we're going down that rabbit hole, and that is the devil doing a number on us.

And we can say on the authority of Scripture, not on the authority of our performance, but on the authority of Scripture, that actually, no living for Jesus is who I am now.

Speaker 1

You're saying this to yourself.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I'm told. I found out if this is true. But I'm told that when Queen Elizabeth was a child growing up, she was told occasionally her mother would say to her, "Royal children, royal manners."

You know, you're a royal child, so you've got to live in a way that reflects that. And there's something of that self-talk we have. I'm a royal child now, so I need to.

Speaker 1

I need to act like it in Christ. This is who I am now.

Speaker 3

Exactly.

Speaker 1

I like that.

Speaker 2

So take that to, I know you're not married, but to a marriage or to a parent trying to instill that theology, really, and identity in their children, either one or both.

Speaker 3

Who we believe ourselves to be will shape how we think we're going to be able to live. Which is why the New Testament always gives us the indicatives before the imperatives. Who we are in Jesus, what he's done for us before, the here's what you need to go and do now.

So I think it just means, if you're raising your child in the faith, to be constantly reminding your child of who he or she is in the eyes of Jesus. All of us need to see ourselves in the light of who God says we are. Going back to your opening question, otherwise we won't understand who we are as Christians.

And it's not merely you carry the label Christian. Most of us know that we carry the label Christian, but actually you have the newness of Jesus in you. That can't not make a difference. Your sin is not more powerful than the Holy Spirit because we tend to think again. This is one of the devil's biggest tricks, is you're the only one who's this messed up.

And I remember talking to a Christian counselor once and I was just lamenting my own sinfulness and my own inability to make any progress in the Christian life whatsoever. That's how it felt at the time. And he looked at me and smiled, and these were the kindest words that anyone's ever said in this context. He said, "Sam, you're not that special." That changed my life.

Speaker 1

Really?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Why is that?

Speaker 3

You tend to think in all the wrong ways that you are, that my sin is different to everybody else's and.

Speaker 1

You are the most messed up one. That's what we think. Yeah.

Speaker 3

Everyone else has got standard issue sin, and I've got my own special category of my sinful nature. It will be in a museum one day because it's so different and unique to everybody else's.

You know, it's as if Jesus is saying to us in the gospel, "Hey, you're not that special. I'm not intimidated by your sin."

Speaker 1

That's so good.

Speaker 3

I'm not kind of like out of my depth with you.

Speaker 1

Let me ask you what you would say. I've had now three grandchildren. At some point, it must be neurologically as they're developing, but they've all been around the same age where they have said to me, it's almost like a secret, they call me Nani.

And they say, "Nani, sometimes I want to do bad things." What would you say to that?

Speaker 3

Say, welcome to the club.

Speaker 2

Me too.

Speaker 1

I said that same thing. I said, so do I. What else would you say?

Speaker 3

I would say, and that makes us exactly the kind of person Jesus loves to help.

Speaker 1

Oh, I didn't say that. That's a good one.

Speaker 3

I'm going to say that because that's the whole point.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

We wouldn't need Jesus if we weren't people who want to do bad things. We're his kind of people.

Speaker 1

Sam, that's your next children's book.

Speaker 3

It could be.

Speaker 2

I mean, with a 10 year old. Would you then, or would you have the discussion of what you said earlier? That's not really who you are, though.

Speaker 3

No, no. I would want to say there's that real part in all of us that is still wanting to do things. Our own way.

I'll take them to a passage where Paul talks, maybe Galatians 5, about the fruit of the Spirit and the works of the flesh, and say we still have a sinful nature. Jesus is making his presence more and more felt in our lives, but our old self hasn't left the building yet.

And so we still feel the tug of sin, and that doesn't go away. And so a sign that the Spirit is truly at work in us is that there's war going on inside of us.

Speaker 1

Oh, that's a good way to say.

Speaker 3

It, because Paul says in Galatians 5 that, you know, they're opposed to each other. We might go to Romans 7, depending on your theology of Romans 7. Galatians 5 is less disputed in that regard.

So actually, to feel, to be aware of that tug and oh, no, I don't want to be wanting that. That's a sign that you're a normal Christian. That's a sign of the Spirit's work in you. A, that you're noticing, that you're wanting to do those things, and B, that you recognize those things are wrong.

That's a sign of spiritual growth and awareness because the person who's completely in their sin is oblivious most of the time to how much what they're thinking is wrong. So the fact that we're going, oh, no. I can feel myself being tugged towards this particular thing that I know is not right and I don't want to want it.

Speaker 1

That's the Christian speaking, I think, as a listener. I don't know what you feel, but there's this sigh of relief that goes through my spirit.

It's the beauty and the grace of the Gospel, of how much he loves us, how he pursues us, how we are in Him. Him.

I like that because I've read that thousands of times, but I've never really thought through what that means. That's good.

Speaker 2

You know what's amazing is we barely touched on anything in this book. I'm not kidding. We just maybe chapter one found right is chapter one.

And I just want to say to you, if you give a gift to Family Life, we're going to send you this book called *One with My Lord* by Sam Alberry. Any gift of any amount to Family Life will be a blessing to us, and we'll bless you with this book.

You can go to familylifetoday.com and make your gift there, or call us at 1-800-358-6329. That's 800-F, as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word today.

Speaker 1

I don't know if you know this, but we at Family Life would love to pray for you. I think one of the greatest gifts that we can give people is to pray for them. And I know sometimes it feels like it's not that much or like, "Oh, I'll pray for you." But let me tell you, that is everything.

We have a team here at Family Life that would love to pray for you. You can go to familylife.com/prayforme. Again, that's familylife.com/prayforme, and I promise you somebody's gonna be praying for you. So be specific with what your needs are. Tell us exactly how we can pray for you, what's going on, and we will do that.

And here's the best part: God answers, God hears, God sees. And He is there for you. We want to be there for you too. So go to familylife.com/prayforme.

Speaker 2

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