FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

We want kids that are going to grow up to be adults, that have a strong voice in this world. Our children are separate from us.

They're not always going to think like us. They're going to have different ideas and opinions.

And we want to create places, you know, maybe it's the dinner table, where they can voice those opinions.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Shelby Abbott and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us@familylifetoday.com this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 3

I think this is going to be a really good conversation today.

Speaker 4

Yeah. Because we've got somebody with us that's going to help us learn how to listen as parents. So our kids will talk. Sounds like a book title to me.

Speaker 3

This is Becky Harling with us today. She wrote the book, as you said, dav how to listen so your kids will talk. And you've spent more than 30 years teaching God's word to people all around the world. So I'm excited.

Speaker 4

Yeah. And we need help. You know, I mean, our kids are older, but we've got grandkids now. And our listeners have kids of all different ages. So I'm gonna ask you the question that's on the title of your book. How do we listen? So our kids will talk.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So we have to be intentional. And before we even start, I wanna say, and I know you guys would agree with me, this is a no guilt zone because, oh, I like this, Becky. We have all messed up in this area. And it's an area where God continues to grow us.

And so for me, you know, God gave me a little negotiator. And she was about three years old when I realized what a negotiator she was. She was tiny but mighty, as the pediatrician would say. And I just remember thinking, oh, my word, how can you be three years old and have so many opinions?

And she had opinions on everything. From the time she was three, Steph would start conversations with, "Mom, don't say no yet." And then we would go into this long argument. And, you know, is this your firstborn? No, this was my third.

Speaker 4

Really?

Speaker 1

And I treasure her because, you know what? God had to change me. You know, I grew up in a fairly abusive, authoritative home. Very abusive, actually.

And, you know, growing up in a Christian home and being a Bible teacher, we all heard, you know, that your kids are supposed to be well behaved, grow up to love Jesus. And unfortunately, that meant I talked a lot.

You know, I'm a teacher. Right. So I had a lot to say, you know, a lot of instructions. Pick up your clothes, you know, make your bed, get your homework ready.

Speaker 3

And so this was you as a mom?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I had to learn how to listen and to really tune in to what was coming from my kids hearts.

Speaker 4

I mean, was that something that you learned quickly? I mean it was. How did you learn it?

Speaker 1

I did not learn it quickly. In fact, when one of my other daughters was 17, I asked her, "So how do you think I'm doing as a listener?" I really thought I was going to get kudos, you know, the rave reviews. And she was like, "Well, sometimes you listen, you talk a lot, you give me a lot of your opinions, and I just want you to listen. You know, you're distracted a lot."

So it's a skill that we have to continue working on in our home. My husband Steve and I realized we needed a key verse to kind of shape our family, you know, because we really didn't know what we were doing as parents. In fact, I have joked that really the book I've wanted to write on parenting is called "Blackmail, Bribery and a Whole Lot of Prayer."

Speaker 3

Because you need to write that book.

Speaker 1

Yeah, really. Because I mean, we just didn't know what we were doing. You know, we knew we wanted good kids, we knew we wanted a good relationship with them driving everything we did. We had two goals in mind. We wanted them to grow up to love Jesus. And we knew we really can't control that; we can only model that. But we wanted them to grow up with a strong connection with us. And that meant we had to learn how to listen.

So the verse that we chose for our house is Proverbs 24:3-4: "By wisdom, a house is built; through understanding, it is established; through knowledge, its rooms are filled with rare and beautiful treasures." We loved that verse. And so our whole family system was built on that—those verses from Proverbs.

Speaker 3

So how did you break that down and think, okay, this is what we want it to look like now in our family?

Speaker 1

Yeah, well there's three couplets in that verse. And so they became really goals for Steve, my husband and I.

So the first one is wisdom. We knew, oh man, does it ever take wisdom. In fact, funny story, yesterday we have a family text thread and my girls were all texting me saying, oh my word, why didn't you tell us parenting was going to be so hard?

Speaker 3

And you have three daughters and a son. You have three daughters and a son.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So anyway, parenting is hard and there's lots of books out there on parenting. We've all written them. But at the end of the day, parents have to go back to the Lord for wisdom, because each child is different. And, you know, our firstborn was completely different than our second, and our second was different than our third, and our third was different than our fourth. So you've gotta go back to God for wisdom. We exercised that principle every day, getting on our knees, asking God for wisdom.

The second principle is through understanding. It is established. This couplet I love because it's one of my favorites. In our house, all our kids played soccer, so we had a million soccer balls flying through the house, and sometimes a lamp would get knocked over. The idea behind understanding here is resetting up something that's been toppled over. For our kids, they go out into the world and their emotions are often toppled over, right? People say mean things to them or they get their feelings hurt. As a parent, when you listen to understand, you're helping to reestablish that child's heart.

Then there's knowledge, where the rooms are filled with rare and beautiful treasures. You gotta know your kids. Who are their friends? What are the things your kids love? What do they gravitate to? What are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? When you can celebrate every child's unique personality, then your home is filled with rare and beautiful moments.

Speaker 3

Did you get to a point in parenting where you thought, like, I can do this apart from God.

Speaker 1

Oh, my word. Oh, my word. I mean, we got to that point many times, right? We had four kids. We didn't know what we were doing. I can't even tell you how many times I was at that point, like, lord, you gotta help, because I'm not doing this.

Well, you know, I remember one morning, it had been a rough morning with my little negotiator, and it had actually been a rough week with my little negotiator. And I just remember getting up really early, getting on my knees and sobbing before the Lord and just saying, I can't do this. I'm messing her up for life. She's going to need a lifetime of therapy. I just can't do this. You got to help me.

And the Lord did. He showed me that I had to keep my mouth shut more.

Speaker 3

I've done that. As our kids got older, I remember my older friend saying, as your kids become teenagers, you just say less and you pray more.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3

And I remember thinking, really? Is that really necessary? And I realized, like, yes, that is really necessary to pray more. So I was praying all through the day, all the time. Me too.

Even when I woke up in the morning, I would say, "Lord, help me, because I know I could blow it. I know I will blow it. And I need your wisdom. I need your help."

Were there specific times that you felt like, oh, God really gave me some wisdom in this?

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. So there was a season when my husband was a pastor for most of our married life. And so, you know, Sundays are crazy. I had been away at a speaking event. I came back, and my husband said, "Our son, J.J., he said, he's really been sick today. He had the flu." And then, you know, I got home, and he was eating strawberry pie. So I thought, well, he can't be that sick. You know? I mean, right?

And the next morning, Sunday morning, you know, Steve's gone, and J.D. comes into our bedroom, and he's like, "Mom, I'm dying of pain." And I just remember thinking, okay, Lord, what do I do? You know? Do I say, well, you ate too much pie? I just had this check in my spirit. It's the only way I can say it. And I was like, "Lord, you gotta show me what to do." I felt like the Lord said, "Call the pediatrician and go right now." So I did. Well, it turned out that J.J. had appendicitis. By the time we got him to the hospital, it had burst, you know?

But again, you know, as a mother, you're like, okay, is this serious? Is this not serious? You know, is he joking around or whatever? You know? But there are so many times along the way. Another time, I got home from a speaking event, and my little negotiator, who was then 12, came bounding down the steps, and she had an idea. I was like, "Hi, Steph." And she's like, "Hi, Mom."

So she said, "I really think I deserve a TV in my room." Okay. Now, that went against everything Steve and I believed in as parents. I just remember thinking I could feel a response coming on. Thankfully, I paused, and I was like, "Lord, show me what to do." So I said, "You know what, Steph? I knew I didn't have the energy to argue this, so I said, go up to the office, and I want you to write me a proposal. It's gotta have good paragraph structure. It's gotta have good sentences, capitals, periods, the whole thing." She was all excited. She went up and worked for two hours on this proposal.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 1

She brought it down to Steve and me, and she presented her proposal. We excused her so we could talk, you know.

Steve said, "Beck, I don't know what we're gonna do. This is really good."

So we gave in and let her have a black and white TV in her room that only worked on two channels. She felt like she won.

Speaker 3

What does she do now?

Speaker 1

She amazing. She has a very strong voice for the Lord. She's on staff at her church and she's working on her master's degree in counseling.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 1

Yeah, she's amazing.

Speaker 3

That's really amazing, though, because you thought the answer is going to be no, we're not going to let her have a TV in there.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 3

But what she had done and her argument was so compelling that you just thought, we have to. But I like the idea that it had two channels and it was black and white.

Speaker 1

I know, I know. And so now I tell parents, hey, if you have a negotiator, if they're grammar school age or junior high or even teenagers, learn to use the power of a proposal because it gives you time to pray while they're working on that proposal.

Speaker 3

That's really why.

Speaker 1

And it gives them a voice.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I was just gonna say it gives them a voice. Your first chapter is give them a voice.

So a lot of us would have just said, no, they don't have a voice. They're not even. They're gonna ask and it's over.

But I mean, that's wisdom. You just modeled wisdom, understanding, knowledge.

Speaker 2

Seriously.

Speaker 4

It's like, wow, I don't know if I would have ever done that.

Speaker 3

I think that is. I mean, that was from God. Honestly.

Speaker 1

That was from God, absolutely. And because I would not have thought of that by myself, you know.

Speaker 4

Let me just pause and say, if you need help as a parent.

Speaker 3

I do.

Speaker 4

I mean, I'm like, who does not need help as a parent?

We have help for you at familylife.com/parentinghelp. It's free.

At some of our best, we put it together for you. You need help, I need help. We all need help.

Go to familylife.com/parentinghelp and get help.

Speaker 3

I had a situation that I've shared before, but it was when our son was 13. He was in a bad mood before school, which then made me mad.

And so we get in this argument, and I tell him his privileges are gone for the weekend. I get in the car to drive him to school, and now I feel bad because I had overreacted, which I can do that quite often.

Speaker 1

We all.

Speaker 4

Oh, every once in a while.

Speaker 3

So I tell him, CJ, I'm really sorry I overreacted. Let's just talk about this before we get to school. And he will not talk. And that's the thing that drives me most crazy of anything, when you can't have a conversation, because I want to have that conversation.

And so we're driving. I said, hey, now, don't just shut down. Let's really talk about what happened. What were you feeling? What were you thinking? You know, I'm trying to listen, but there's nothing. He says nothing. We get to the school. I stopped the car. I said, hey, don't get out of the car until we at least make a little headway of saying, tell me what you're feeling. He looks at me, he opens the car door, and he goes into the school. And now I'm like, now I'm mad.

I'm trying to think what I should do and should I go back in and get him? So I'm driving, and this is exactly what comes to mind. First, I'm trying to plan the whole thing. What should I do? What's the best plan? But then I'm reminded. Pray. And I think of James 1. If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives generously without reproach.

And so I said that, Lord, I have no idea what I'm doing. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say, but I don't want this to be an ongoing thing where we have conflict. And then he shuts down. So give me wisdom. And in my mind, popped this thought: went home, grabbed a piece of paper, put a stick figure of a girl, stick figure of a guy, and I put a brick in the middle of us.

He came home later that day because I had put that note right on his desk where he studies. He came in the house, went upstairs, studied, and he came immediately downstairs with this paper, and he goes, mom, what is this, like, your attempt at art? What is this that you put on my desk? And I said, oh, that's what happened to us today. That's me, the woman, then that's you, the guy. And that thing in between, that block, that brick, is the fight that we had, and it's in our relationship now. It's unresolved.

He goes, mom, it's not there. I'm not even mad about it. I said, I'm not either, but that doesn't mean the brick has disappeared and the conflict is resolved. We're just mad that it's there anymore. So we had this great discussion about how if you have one fight and you don't resolve it. I took a pencil and I made all these bricks and I said, I see families all the time that can't even talk because they've had so many arguments and they haven't resolved them. And we've seen marriages that happen to them as well.

And so it's so fun because he says, so how do you get rid of the brick? You know, so we talked about it, we prayed about it, and I erased it. But that's what, as you were talking, I thought that's what God does. I would have never come up with this thought in my mind to draw a picture of that picture. Never. And I'm not an artist. I think God is so beautifully merciful to us. When we go to him and ask, he gives generously.

Speaker 1

He does.

Speaker 3

But we have to ask and we have to then kind of, you know, like, what kind of thoughts does he put in my mind? Or what are people saying to me? Or what is the word saying to me in order to hear?

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4

So talk about this. How do we give our kids a voice? I mean, because often we are the voice as a parent and we want to be authoritative and we want to, you know, lead them in the right way.

And yet there are times we need to give them a voice, and there are other times we don't. So there's got to be wisdom there.

How do we give them a voice?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think we need to really be intentional about giving them a voice because we want kids that are going to grow up to be adults that have a strong voice in this world. And so if we're focused on silencing them, I think it begins with a mind change on our part. You know, our children are separate from us. They're not always going to think like us. They're going to have different ideas and opinions. We want to create places, you know, maybe it's the dinner table, where they can voice those opinions. We want to really affirm their creativity in how they express their voice.

You know, my husband was the pastor of this large church, and we had Wednesday night programs. You know, back in the day, you probably all had Wednesday night programs too, right? So our kids would go to these Wednesday night programs. While my oldest was in third grade, she was part of Pioneer Girls at the time. But Bethany was very athletic, and at Pioneer Girls, they wanted them to sew, and she couldn't stand sewing. The boys were getting more gym time.

So, Bethany and her friend Robin—I’ll never forget this—created a petition and they took it around to all the fourth grade girls, the third grade girls, and the second grade girls. Then they went very respectfully to the children's ministry director and presented their petition for why the girls needed more gym time. Now, you know, at first, Steve and I were like, great, what does this do to our reputation? You know, my husband's the lead pastor. But then we realized, no, this is awesome because they did it in a respectful way.

Speaker 3

I think all your kids are negotiating.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah, probably. So they, you know, they brought a proposal to the children's ministry director.

But I think, you know, family dinners are a great place to encourage your kids' voice, talk about faith issues, and let them express their doubts because they need to wrestle out their faith in order for it to be strong later.

And so I think there are some guiding principles really, throughout the book. Ask questions, give them opportunities to make choices. Don't make every choice for them. They need to make choices, and they need to own their choices for better or for worse.

Speaker 4

I know the quote early in your book. I'd never seen this quote and I.

Speaker 3

Was like, wow, I love this quote too, because it really stuck out to me last night when I was reading your book. Being heard is so close to being loved that for the average person, they are almost indistinguishable. By David Augsburger.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 3

That is a heavy, heavy quote. Like that combination of being heard. They feel loved by that.

Speaker 4

Yeah, I mean, we all do.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we do. And so the same principle applies to marriage and it applies to your kids. You know, unfortunately, in our day and age, we all didn't have to deal with this as much, the whole technology piece. But that is shaping families right now, because you have parents that are continually on their cell phones, and we've all been guilty of it. Again, this is a guilt-free zone.

But we live in a very distracted society. If your child is really going to feel loved and connected to you, they have to feel heard. So we have to make sure we're being intentional about opening those doors of communication.

Speaker 3

You even talk about looking them in the eye.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Like making sure that they're seeing that you're looking at them.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I love the story in Luke 15 of the parable of the Prodigal. You know, that story for me personally is my all-time favorite story that Jesus ever told because I grew up with a very abusive father. To see the actions of the father in that story with his son, who has really blown it and wasted the family inheritance, ran off. You know, he's like the typical college freshman, right? He's partying, and all of a sudden it dawns on this kid, hey, I should maybe get a job. There's a profound thought.

The kid gets a job slopping pigs, and then he finally thinks, I should go home and work for my dad. But what's amazing about the story is the kid starts home, and the father is outside scanning the horizon. I can hardly ever teach this story without crying because it impacts me so much. That father lifts his robe and runs to that kid, throwing his arms around him. This is a kid who has made his life miserable, but he throws his arms around that kid. He's loving him, hugging him, and he looks him in the eye and says, "You're going to come home as my son, not my servant."

It's such a powerful example of what God wants for us, even in our parenting. When we look at our kids and our eyes light up to see them, there's all this science that's been done showing that you are actually building your child's joy center. What an amazing capacity that God has given us. You know, I have little grandbabies, and when you look at that little grandbaby and you're looking at them eye to eye, and your eyes light up to see them, you're building their capacity to be able to return to joy later in life. How crazy is that?

Speaker 3

It's amazing. It is like, and I'm thinking about that with each of our kids or our grandkids, to really look them in the eye.

And as a mom with little kids, this feels like, are you kidding me? I'm making dinner. I've just come home from my job, I'm exhausted.

They're all running around. It's crazy. There's homework to be done, there's dishes.

Speaker 1

To be done, all the things.

Speaker 3

But to stop for a minute to look in your kids' eyes, to tell them, "I see you and I love who you are." Yes. That is one of the greatest gifts that you will ever give to your kids.

And I will add, and to your spouse, because I'm worse with Dave than I am with my kids. My kids can come in, and I'm like, "Hey, what's up?" But Dave can come in, and I can be like, "Where have you been?"

Speaker 1

We've all done that.

Yeah, but you brought up a good point too, because, like, when your kids are coming home and into the house looking excited to see you, that's not the time to be on your phone, right?

You know, like, look them in the eye. How was your day? You know, and you're gonna have the kids that are gonna be, like, fine, you know, or whatever.

Speaker 3

And they go through phases that they'll do that for a while, actually. Like, it's no big deal. Mom, why are you making such a big deal out of it?

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 3

But they remember it.

Speaker 1

They remember it. Yeah. And when you look excited to see them, I mean, you and I now we all have grandkids, right? And when they come to my house, you know, and they run in that open door, and they're like, "Mimi!" You know, and I'm hugging them and picking them up and, you know, looking them in the eye.

But there's a whole wealth of nonverbal language that happens, that we can show our kids we love them without really even using our words. Not that it's not important to say "I love you," but, you know, hugging them and looking them in the eye and smiling.

I mean, I remember in our home, some of my girls. It seems like the girls confront a little more than our son did at this age, since all my stories are about them. Anyway, they said, "You know, Mom, you look angry." And I’m like, "I’m not angry." You know, I was probably, like, focused on some project.

So I literally went before the mirror. I mean, this is—I'm being very vulnerable here—but I literally went before the mirror the next day at school, and I, like, practiced smiling. You know, like, what does my face look like? What messages am I sending these kids with my face? You know, that's so funny.

Speaker 3

But it's. I mean, it's a great thought. Like, am I constantly. Do I have my mind on something else?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

I'm distracted. But as you were saying that, the thing that hit me was as you talked about the prodigal.

Our Father is always so happy to be with us. Our heavenly Father, when we come to him, he's smiling. It doesn't matter what you've done.

He's always so glad that we've come into his presence, and he's always welcoming us. That's a good reminder.

Speaker 4

You know, as you were talking, I'm remembering walking in my house every day. Every day after school. Dad left. My little brother died. I'm really, you know, feeling unloved. And I can remember walking in the back door from the driveway every single day.

And it didn't hit me till I was listening to you two moms talk that my mom stopped everything, hugged me, kissed me, looked me in the eye, sat down for dinner and asked me about my day every single day. And I ran home because I felt seen and loved and heard. She probably didn't know that Bible verse, but she had wisdom, understanding, and knowledge.

And I just thought, man, I just wanted to be home because I was loved, and I was loved because I was heard. So I mean, it's a perfect example of what the father looks like. And in my case, it was a single mom.

But to the parent listening, I'd say today is your day. No matter what yesterday was or how you have been parenting, I hope God spoke in such a way to say, you know, today I need to make sure my son or daughter feels heard. Yeah, I need to look him in the eye, turn on my phone, and let them talk and see where God takes us. It'd be a beautiful day.

Speaker 2

So the question is, how are we doing? Me, I could use some work in this area. We think listening is easy, but it's really not. It's difficult to do, especially when all we've done with our kids in their younger years is teach and instruct them. But like anything worth pursuing, it's going to take intentionality and effort. I'm challenged by this, and I'm ready to put it into action.

I'm Shelby Abbott. You've been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Becky Harling on Family Life Today. Becky's written a book called *How to Listen So Your Kids Will Talk*. It provides practical strategies for listening and affirming your kids' feelings and helping to build trust and connection with them. Super, super valuable. You can get your copy right now by going online to familylifetoday.com or clicking on the link in the show notification notes. Feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329. Again, that number is 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today.

Do you follow us on social media? Well, if you're on Instagram, head over to @familylifeinsta or find us on Facebook by searching Family Life for more regular encouragement from the ministry that helps you with your parenting and marriage.

Now, coming up tomorrow, do you want your kids to open up more? I'd say who doesn't, right? Well, Becky Harling is back to share what parents can do to help their children express themselves. That's coming up tomorrow. We hope you'll join us.

On behalf of David Ann Wilson, I'm Shelby Abbott. We'll see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today. Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a Cru ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.