FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

We just tried to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age.

Speaker 2

You want to talk about the bus?

Speaker 1

One of our sons, first day of eighth grade.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1

Came home and he was like, do girls really like it when guys, like, text pictures of their private parts to him? And we're like, what?

Speaker 2

This is eighth grade. Eighth grade.

Speaker 1

But not freaking out in front of your kids is huge.

Speaker 3

So we have Dave and Ashley Wilson in the studio.

Speaker 4

I want to have, like, banners.

Speaker 3

You didn't even hear what I said. Did you guys catch what I said?

Speaker 2

I did. I did.

Speaker 3

There's so many people that call us Willis.

Speaker 4

Wait, what did you say?

Speaker 2

David Ashley Wilson, do you ever get called Wilson?

Speaker 3

Never. Yes.

Speaker 1

I would change my name and be legally adopted by YouTube.

Speaker 2

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 3

And the sad thing is we're old enough to probably do that.

Speaker 2

Not quite, though.

Speaker 3

I was gonna say not quite.

Speaker 1

No.

Speaker 3

We have David Ashley Willis.

Speaker 1

You'd be my adopted big brother.

Speaker 2

There you go.

Speaker 3

With no hair.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I take your hair and your name. But anyway, I don't know if that's the way we want to start, but we're starting that way.

Speaker 1

Welcome to the broadcast.

Speaker 3

We love you guys so much that it's just a joy to have you here. We watch you. We watch your videos, follow you, and follow your life, and it's fun. When you get to come to Orlando, we get to sit here.

Speaker 1

We love hanging out with you guys.

Speaker 2

Oh, we do.

Speaker 4

It's a real treat, and it's fun because we're both. We're all passionate about Jesus, but marriage is something that, man, it beats in our blood, and we want people to have better marriages, better families.

So we have a lot in common that way.

So what are we doing today?

Speaker 3

We're gonna talk about different things. First of all, Dave, you wrote a book, and of course, you remember this. This was during COVID right?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Pretty close.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Came out during COVID Came out during COVID Wrote it. Yeah. Probably like the year leading up to Covid.

Speaker 3

Here it is, if you're watching on YouTube. Still.

Speaker 1

Still an important message.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it is. Yes.

Speaker 3

So my first question is this, Ashley, you tell us, how does Dave respect you?

Speaker 2

Oh, my goodness. I mean, so many ways. I think he always tries to give me his best attention and listens well to me. I feel like he shows our boys how to respect, how he treats me every day and just showing me respect in his time, in his words, in his eyes.

I think that he celebrates me well, and it trickles down to our boys. So I feel like our boys wouldn't have as much respect for me as they do if you didn't teach them that just through your example, because you do such a great job of that.

Speaker 1

Well, she is very easy to respect, first off. I mean, so I have it easy in that department because I married the best person. But it's important.

I don't know, like, for you dads who are listening, it's. Our kids are watching you. You know, our example is fathers. I had somebody tell me when I was a young father, you're teaching your sons how to respect women, and you're teaching your daughters what they should expect from men someday by your example, by the way you're treating your spouse.

And so that really stuck with me. And I thought, man, we never had daughters. But with my sons, I want to model that. I want them to catch that. If they don't catch much else from me, I want them to at least catch that.

But they have such an amazing mom. She is very easy to respect.

Speaker 4

Dave, did that always come naturally?

Speaker 1

I think that it came naturally and that I had a great mom myself.

Speaker 2

Her name is Karen.

Speaker 1

And I still do. I say not past tense. I still have a great mom. Mom, if you're listening.

Speaker 2

And a great dad.

Speaker 1

And a great dad. They're the.

I will say something that kind of temporarily sabotaged my thinking is when I was a teenager into young adulthood, I got into pornography, which is part of our testimony, my testimony that we've talked a lot about.

And that whole mindset shift of just having those toxic objectifying images in my brain really sabotaged me for a time in how I saw myself and how I saw women and how I saw sex.

Speaker 4

What did that look like? How did it affect how you saw yourself?

Speaker 1

No sin ever stays in the little compartment you build for it, right? So if you think, well, this is just an escape or this is just entertainment, it's not hurting anybody. It's not hurting anybody. All the lies that we believe or that I believed at least, and I think many others have believed around porn.

But it's insidious. You know, it's like a cancerous tumor that metastasizes. It breaks open and it starts affecting all these other things.

And so in terms of how I saw myself, like, I started having less respect for myself because I was wrapped up in this thing that I knew to be wrong. I wasn't taking steps to get help from it.

Speaker 4

Was it a secret?

Speaker 1

It was a secret for a long time.

Speaker 3

And you were married.

Speaker 1

Well, it started when I was unmarried, but I fell back into it in our newlywed years. And then I dealt with the shame of that. I knew Jesus said, to look with lust is to commit adultery in your heart. Now I'm like, oh, my goodness, I'm being unfaithful. And I hated myself for it. There was a lot of self-loathing.

But there's a verse in the Proverbs that says, like a dog returns to its vomit, so a fool will repeat his foolishness. I was that dog. I would return to the gross thing and knowing it's gross, but it's like I just couldn't break out of that cycle.

Speaker 4

So that probably created shame.

Speaker 1

It did. It created shame. And as much as I would say I respected Ashley even through that, I don't know that at that point in my life, I was fully respecting anybody because just my whole mindset had been devalued. And so as a result, I was devaluing myself, devaluing others, and it was just a negative place to be.

And so I think part of getting to a place of respect and just living the way God wants us to live is renewing our minds from just the junk that's there. And porn isn't the only form of junk. I think we can take on junk that impacts our relationships from our own, the homes we grew up in, and maybe toxic behaviors we saw. There are words that were spoken to us when we were kids that have shaped our thinking about ourselves in unhealthy ways or past relationships we've had, or just flawed messages we see from pop culture.

I mean, there's a billion different ways to get the wrong message. But when you go back to God's word and allow his word to really renew our mind and to bring hope and healing and renewal and grace, then we can start seeing ourselves the way he sees us, and we can start seeing other people through his eyes.

And the more we do that, the more we're going to respect each other. Because God has so much respect for people. He created us in his image for his glory. And so when you're objectifying another person or disrespecting another person, you're really disrespecting God, who created them in his image.

And so understanding that, I think just that principle can help all of us respect ourselves, respect the opposite sex, and see humanity the way God wants us to.

Speaker 3

I mean, talk us through the. The struggle of porn in your marriage. Because I know there's couples listen right now. Yeah, some of them Just went, oh, I have a secret. They're talking about it. I don't even know if I'm going to tell her or tell him.

Speaker 4

And maybe the wife is suspecting.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So how did you guys navigate? I mean, number one, you're talking about it. We're from a generation where you couldn't even mention that.

And now we have marriage authors, leaders saying this was a struggle that a lot of people just said. I remember the first time I mentioned it at my church in the 90s. I didn't tell my co-founder I was going to share this with the church, that I had a struggle.

And I remember, as I said that, I thought.

Speaker 4

And it was past tense.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it was past tense. But I was, like, trying to say, this has been something I had to walk through. I remember having this thought, I might get fired today.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Because a leader shouldn't have this struggle. And I'm not only saying I have it or had it; I'm gonna talk about it publicly.

As I walked off the stage, Steve looked at me and said, "You just changed our church." And I'm like, "Oh, am I fired?"

He's like, "No, this is now gonna be a church where people can be honest and real." So you've gone the same route. You said, "We're gonna talk about this."

Speaker 1

We have to be honest and real. And God blesses that. I mean, he blessed your church. Your church saw explosive growth after that.

Speaker 3

It became a place where people felt like they could be safe. But it was a hard thing in our marriage.

Speaker 4

Horrible.

Speaker 3

Because I wanted to keep it, like, my private struggle. I'm gonna win this thing, and I'm gonna battle it, and she's not gonna need to know. Cause I'm gonna win.

And then I'd fall. And then.

And so it couldn't be a secret anymore. So how did it go for you guys?

Speaker 2

Oh, man. Well, you know, Dave always likes to say that he wished that he had just come out with it, like. Cause he dealt with this for so long in the early years of our marriage. And I knew. I think as spouses, we often know something's off, but we don't always know what it is.

And I remember for a while thinking, something's off here. Because one of the things that attracted me to Dave the most the first time I met him was he had what I refer to as honest eyes. And I just said, when I look at you, I feel like you're totally looking back at me and you're not hiding anything.

And I just found that—I mean, I clearly was attracted to you physically, but my heart was attracted to you with the honesty. Right. I felt security and safety.

Speaker 3

I mean, when she said that, Dave, did you feel like they're not honest? Because I have this struggle?

Speaker 1

Well, I think at the time, we were. We were together. Like, first getting together, I wasn't looking at porn. Like, it had been a past struggle, but I would have these kind of little stints of sobriety with it. And I thought, okay, well, I'm free from that. That's part of my past. And I don't need to tell her.

Which was my first mistake, not telling her. It had even been part of my past struggle. But in those early years of our dating, if I'm remembering right, I think I was free from it. So there was an honesty, you know, I mean, I was being honest, but then when I fell back into it, which even took me by surprise.

Yeah. I was hiding in shame, and Ashley, who's very perceptive, knew something was off, and we were living in that tension.

Speaker 2

And I would even say, sometimes, are you okay? You know, like, what's. And he's like, yeah, I'm fine. Work is crazy. You know what I'm saying?

Speaker 4

I can feel you feel it.

Speaker 1

Something.

Speaker 4

I remember saying the same thing. Like, is something up? Like, I just feel like a separation from us.

Speaker 2

Yes. A distance. Right. And he would be so concerned, and I would see it. Now that I've been married to him almost 25 years, I know that I think I could read him like a book. Right. But I just, you know, we were still getting to know each other and all of our, you know, cues that we give, and I knew there was something.

I just. Porn was nowhere on my radar. And Dave always says, till this day, he's like, one of my biggest regrets is not telling you that I had struggled with this before we got married, that this was part of my past.

Speaker 4

Because then it would have been on your radar.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

And I could have been like, have you looked at porn? Just be honest with me. And then we could have dealt with it. Right.

But he was. He had built up so much shame. Right. He had allowed shame to really creep in because he not only had not told me about the past struggle, he now was back in that struggle.

And every time he said he just did not have the courage to tell me, and he wished that he had.

Speaker 1

I didn't want to disappoint you. I didn't want to be seen as a failure or weak or any of these Things. So whatever lies I was believing it kept it in the dark until she just found it, you know, on this was.

Speaker 2

And I wasn't looking for it.

Speaker 1

This was before smartphones even. Like, this was old school, like on an old clunky desktop computer. She found, you know, these terrible places where I'd been looking. And so then all at once, it's brought out into the open in a really drastic way. She called and said, "Is there something you need to tell me?" I immediately knew, and I was heartbroken and relieved at the same time. I said, "You found it, and I'm so sorry." That put us on the path to healing.

But even the path to healing was messy. I mean, it was so deeply ingrained in my mind. I know there was at least one relapse that I had, which just brought the same shame cycle all over again. Rebuilding trust takes time. You know, I've heard it said, "Trust is built in drops and lost in buckets." I dumped out a bucket load of trust all at once.

She was so full of grace, though, even in her woundedness, to walk with me and allow me to rebuild that trust over time. We put safeguards in place to ensure, you know, through filtering software and accountability and all the things that came with it, that we would have a household of honesty and transparency.

As our boys started coming along, I think having worked through that early in our marriage kind of gave us a foundation for knowing we want to raise them in a way where we're honest about these things. They're in a world where they're going to be bombarded with all the wrong kinds of images, and we don't want any of that to take root in them or shame to take root in them when they do stumble. But we're going to start having conversations.

Speaker 3

Yeah, how'd that, how'd that look like with your boys? I mean, did you share your struggle as a, you know, as a dad with your sons when they got to a certain age?

Speaker 1

I mean, in age specific ways. We've tried to be completely honest and with. Just by nature what we do, like we, we talk so openly about this.

Speaker 4

Stuff is you don't have a choice.

Speaker 1

I don't have a choice. Right, because it's.

Speaker 3

Your ministry used to be called naked marriage, right? Yeah, exactly. And everybody thought, dad, you were talking.

Speaker 1

About this on stage an hour ago. You can't forget, pretend like this didn't happen. So. So that keeps me honest. What we do kind of keeps me honest.

Speaker 4

What is age appropriate, you guys, to have those conversations of your own past? What do you think?

Speaker 1

Gosh, I think it depends. I think it depends in some ways on the child.

I don't know if it's like, yeah, you hit this age, you know, tell them everything on their 12th birthday. I don't think it's like that.

I think you have to have discretion about, like, the level of detail.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I think you can give them principles of, you know, I made mistakes in this area. And then as they get older and maybe their temptations get more specific, you can get more specific about what your past struggles were, what happened as a result of the right choices and the wrong choices you made. We tried to be honest about both. For example, there were times when I overcame temptation, and it was a victory story. However, they learn even more from the times you say, "Man, I blew it in this area. This is what that looked like, and this is what I felt, and this is the shame I was carrying."

We just tried to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age. We would talk about their anatomy and, you know, like, "Oh, God made you a boy. That's great." We used specific words for their anatomy, saying, "That's great. You're going to be a man someday and be able to be a dad." It's important to convey that your anatomy is never dirty; it's private, sure, and people aren't allowed to touch you there. You need to tell us if there's anybody that ever tries to violate that.

The goal was to avoid creating atmospheres where they would feel like they had to live in secrecy or shame as they started having feelings about sex, puberty, and all that. So I think that's how it started.

Speaker 3

I mean, by the way, I just put it in a little call to action right now. You guys have just done a how to talk to your kids about sex video series. Yeah.

Speaker 1

I'm so excited about this resource. I think the team at Family Life did a stellar job. We got to partner with an amazing team to put together this resource, so we're the ones teaching on it.

But it was a team effort putting together this curriculum, and I think it's some of the most helpful practical resources I've seen anywhere. Again, because the team put so much into it to help parents, guide parents in age-specific ways to have these conversations with boys and girls.

It's not just for sons.

Speaker 3

Oh, it is. Yeah. That's good. And by the way, just go to familylife.com sextalk and you get Dave and Ashley talking about probably some of the stuff you just said.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

Do you even get into porn?

Speaker 2

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

We talk about all of it.

Speaker 4

And it's called how to talk to your kids about sex.

Speaker 1

So how and when do you talk to your kids about sex? What we've learned with raising four is that you start early.

It's not one talk. It's a series of conversations in age-appropriate ways that start early by celebrating their gender, being specific about their anatomy, and talking about appropriate and inappropriate touch.

As they get into early pre-adolescence, it's talking about puberty and the mechanics of sex.

Speaker 2

Exactly. And boundaries as they enter into dating. And then you just keep talking about it.

As you lay this foundation of being an open place to talk about these things, you're building trust, and they're going to come back to you with questions.

We try to answer those questions as best we can by being honest, even about our own experiences. And I'm telling you, that makes them lean in and that makes them want to come to you again and again.

Speaker 1

Family lifes, how to talk to your kids about sex.

Speaker 2

I think it gets intimidating for us as parents, especially like with your question, like how did you, or did you even approach the fact that porn is part of his past, you know, with our kids? And I think it's really important to know that there's no perfect parents out there with a perfect past. Right. And so we have to, you know, come at this knowing that we're not perfect. Our kids already know that. My goodness. Probably more than anybody.

But I think even as we talk about sex, to be real with them, to be authentic with them at an age-appropriate level, it gives them that safe place to come back with questions. Because it's not just one sex talk; it's a multitude of talks, right? Over the course of time. And like Dave said, it gets more detailed as they get a bit older and have those questions.

But I feel like, you know, we knew back then when we had little kids that we would need to talk to them about this part of our marriage. And when the time came, we really talked about it as a couple, like, what do we want to share? And what can we teach them from this? We've been able to do that with each of our kids and put those safeguards in place as well, that we still have till this day to just not have porn at all be part of our lives.

And I want to say this specifically as it comes to, you know, with Dave having this past porn struggle, you know, how did he try to course correct and then respect me as a woman? One of the greatest things he did was really pay attention to where his eyes would go. And I think this is something, like, even in the counseling space, this is something I often hear from wives, not just with husbands with a porn struggle, but just husbands who have trouble with where their eyes go. It is so crushing to a wife when they feel like they have to monitor their husband's eyes and they can't trust that he's not gonna look twice. Because here's the deal.

Speaker 1

Linger on an Instagram picture a little too long. That's maybe a little provocative or. So there's some. Sorry to interrupt, but there's just so many. So many different ways that a guy can.

Speaker 4

And it's crushing to a woman because we already feel insecure.

Speaker 2

Exactly. And the deal is, like, we can't control if an attractive person pops up on our screen or walks by our house. We see them, you know, out at a restaurant or whatever. There are beautiful people everywhere, right? We can notice them, but we get to choose whether or not we keep staring, keep looking, or start lusting over them.

I just remember back in those days, especially, I never really paid attention to that with Dave. But after I discovered that he had a porn issue, that was definitely on my mind. I started to wonder, well, what else is he looking at? It makes you doubt everything. I was like, oh my gosh, is he thinking this lady over here is hot? Is he, like, lusting after her? You know, I mean, you're thinking those things.

I just remember he would go out of his way to avoid situations that would be super tempting, like gyms. At one point, we changed our gym because we just didn't want it to be a temptation. Instead of going to the amazing, popular gym in town, we went to the YMCA, you know, which I loved.

Speaker 1

Because the average age there was about 94.

Speaker 3

And I wear long T shirts. This is true.

Speaker 4

You feel better about yourself.

Speaker 1

I felt so much better about myself. Confidence boost, you know, I did. I made all kinds of friends. I'd walk around drinking coffee for the first hour. I did, like.

And then when I finally started working out, I'd be like, I am strong. I got like 10-pound dumbbells. But I felt like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Speaker 4

So you guys had some couples hearing that are like, this is ridiculous.

Speaker 2

Oh, I'm sure they think that.

Speaker 4

And yet, Ashley, what did that mean to you?

Speaker 2

It meant the world. It meant that I'm a higher priority.

And I mean, honestly, I wasn't going to that gym thinking, oh, he's looking.

But Dave was like, you know, sweetie, he goes, I just think we need to go to the Y where it's not even a thing.

Because there were like, there would just be a lot of, like, scantily dressed women there.

Speaker 1

Men and women.

Speaker 2

Men, too.

Speaker 1

They're wearing things to be noticed.

Speaker 3

They want.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 4

Why they're dressed that way.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

Well, think about what you're also. I mean, your kids are probably little. Little then.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

But if they're old enough to watch what's happening, you are showing your sons this is how you're spectacular.

Speaker 4

Your wife, have you had that change where you work out and told them that?

Speaker 2

Oh, I think so.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I've told my older boys, you know, they got into gyms. And I would say, yeah, like, I used to go there. And this is why I stopped.

Now we just have some weights at home, and that's great. You can just work out at home. But I’ve talked to them about that. I said it felt like everywhere I looked, it was an unsafe place to be in that environment.

Speaker 3

I remember we shared this before, but when I was walking through a mall in Atlanta, Georgia, actually, Dalton, Georgia, you know where that is? That's where her parents lived. And so it's me with the three boys. And I'm guessing my oldest was maybe 11, so 11, nine, six. And they're in front of me, right?

I walk in and I see in the middle of this mall, not in a store, but there's this little magazine rack and it was like, low to the ground, and there's like Sports Illustrated swimsuit. It's some kind of swimsuit issue. And I'm literally looking at my boys to see if they notice it. I notice my older son saw it. The other two, too young, didn't even know it. So I grabbed. And CJ's giving me permission to say this, but I grabbed him. I think he's 11, and he hit maturity early, so he looks like he's like 13, 14.

I go, hey, C.J., did you see that magazine rack up there? He goes, no, no, I didn't see it. I go, I did. He goes, oh, well, yeah, I saw it. I go, and I'll never forget. I'm down, you know, at his level, and the other two boys are running around. I go, hey, did you want to look at that girl in her bathing suit? He goes, oh, no, I didn't want to look. I go, well, I wanted to look. He goes, well, yeah, I wanted to look, too.

I go, so did you look? He goes, no, I didn't look. I go, yeah, I saw you. You looked. And so all I did was go, hey, that's normal. She's a very beautiful woman. She's on this cover. That's normal. You're going on a good look. But you know what I do, CJ? I don't have eyes for anybody but your mom.

And so when I see that kind of thing, I turn, I go, let's make a pact. And I'll never forget. It was one of those moments. Like, we are in this together. Teaching him about sex was not really an intentional moment. The other boys weren't there yet. That day will come. But, man, that was like a moment to respect women.

Speaker 1

And he'll never forget. That's what the whole point of this book is. And the whole point of our, well, the main point of our video courses is looking for those moments to just lead by example and make it a teachable moment without putting shame on them.

To say, listen, it's normal. It's natural that you're going to notice. You're going to have these feelings. You're going to be drawn. There's not shame in that, but it's what we do with those feelings. Realizing God has a time and a place within marriage someday for all of that to be expressed in a beautiful and healthy way.

But until then, any expression of that is gonna be a counterfeit on some level that's gonna hurt you and others. But don't feel bad that you have these feelings. That's just, it means you're becoming an adult, and so you can celebrate their growth at the same time, while safeguards with safeguards, which you did. And that's a great example.

Speaker 4

When we talk about, like. And you talk about in this book, the locker room mentality. What is that? Is this what we're talking about?

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, the locker room mentality. And be careful.

Speaker 3

I've been in a lot of rooms. I know.

Speaker 1

You know, Hey, I have. Well, yeah, I wasn't as athletic as this Dave, so I didn't have as many locker rooms. I have been in locker rooms. I think though, what I'm referring to is just when guys get in guy-only spaces. How. And it doesn't have to be an actual locker room, but the mentality there when guys can get in guy-only spaces and the jokes all of a sudden can become degrading to women or the talk can become like overly sexualized, the bravado or we're trying to project and it doesn't, we don't outgrow it.

I was at a gym, you know, like not that long ago again, like an older person gym, that's where I hang. And there were two guys in there, they both had to be in their 70s and they were talking together about porn as if really what they're into. Two like seventy-year-old guys, and one was saying like, yeah, I just, I gave, you know, gave my laptop to my grandson, but I had to have my tech guy like, you know, wipe it because like I had, you know, all my good porn on there and, and I didn't, you know, didn't want him to see that.

But they were talking, you know, about porn. Like, you know, you would just talk about cars or sports or whatever.

Speaker 2

Like, have you seen the latest movie?

Speaker 1

It was just such a natural and I, I just kind of sat there like on the wall for a while and thought, you know what? Without, without intentionality, we never outgrow sin.

Speaker 3

Right?

Speaker 1

You never outgrow, you know, just sexual sin or lust or that mindset that disrespects women, that objectifies. And so it's not just a thing of like, oh, we got to teach our kids because when they're teenagers this will be a temptation. But then they'll outgrow it and it won't be a thing.

No, without Christ changing your heart and renewing your mind and without being intentional of saying, I don't want to live that way, then we're all going to be the old guy at the gym someday. That's still creepy. You know, that's still. And, and it was, it was.

Speaker 4

That is creepy.

Speaker 2

I mean, it is.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But it was so normal. That's what, Yeah, I think that's what surprised it.

Speaker 1

It wasn't like, oh, I'm struggling with this. It's. No, it was just like, this is normal. This is normal.

Speaker 3

This is what men do.

Speaker 1

This is what men do.

Speaker 3

Scary.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And it's making so little of men, and it's holding them to such a low standard, if that's normal.

Speaker 4

And it's keeping them captive, and it's affecting their future relationships with every single woman that they'll have. And the same is happening with women where porn has become so normalized and that.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 4

It's okay for women to look at it, too.

Speaker 1

It's empowering, even they say.

Speaker 4

Exactly. And that's affecting our futures. And we all know because we've been married a while. This really.

Speaker 3

We've been married a little longer than you guys.

Speaker 4

It really affects your marriage relationship and your legacy.

Speaker 1

Sure does.

Speaker 4

That's sad to me.

Speaker 1

It was sad to me.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I believe it or not, right now, play on a softball team.

Speaker 2

Awesome.

Speaker 3

It may be called senior softball. Seasoned.

Speaker 1

Seasoned. Softball. Seasoned.

Speaker 3

There you go. I like that. You should see us run. It's ugly, but, you know, it's all. None of these guys are church guys. They call me the Rabbi. Oh, wow. This is hilarious.

Speaker 1

Because they don't even know the right.

Speaker 4

They don't even know the right.

Speaker 3

It's like, hey, Rabbi. You know, it's just funny. But it's a normal conversation for these guys to talk about the porn they looked at this weekend.

Speaker 2

Yep.

Speaker 3

I mean, it's just, wow. And they don't even blink at that. I'm sitting right there, you know, and I'm in there like, hey, guys, you know, not that you can't talk about this. This was like, do you understand what you're doing to women? And they just laugh. Like, what women? That's what they want.

Like, oh, my goodness. And they're all married. You know, it's just. I love these guys. I'm there. I want to be the light of Jesus in this world, but that's how normal it is. And you wrote this in '19, and it's even gotten worse.

Speaker 2

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4

Ashley, what have those conversations been like with your boys about this topic?

Because with a mom, it's like, we wonder, do I have those conversations with our sons?

Dave's having those. Do I chime in, too, of what it makes me feel as a woman?

What's that been like?

Speaker 2

You know, at first I had those questions, like, should I just let Dave do the talking in this area? Because he, you know, he had the background with porn, and he's. It'd be like, man to man. And I don't know. As we've kind of navigated it through the years, I've gotten more comfortable. And Dave actually was like, sweetie, I think they need to hear from you as a woman and how that made you feel and how, you know, if a man's staring you down and looking at you sexually, how does that make you feel? You know, the dude in the grocery store or whatever, or, you know, things like that and just talking to the boys about it.

So I have, I've been like, listen, you need to watch where your eyes go. I talk a lot about that. Cause I know, I mean, there, you know, as of right now, we have an 18 year old and 20 year old. And I know those hormones are raging and I'm like, you gotta get a grip on this. And it's up to you. And God will give you the ability to do that, but you have to be mindful of where your eyes are going. And you can't just follow the crowd and get wrapped up in all of this. And so I've been able to talk to them from that perspective.

And I do, you know, we have one son who has a girlfriend right now. And a lot of times I'll be like, how are you showing respect to your girlfriend? And, you know, just talking through what that looks like. And really, it's been really neat to have that open conversation. I would say a lot of times they'll ask me questions now because we've had those conversations. So they'll come to me and say, like, you know, mom, what do you think about this? And just we talk through it pretty openly.

I mean, I think that, like Dave said, with the work we do, we might be more open than the next person just because we talk about this all the time. But I do think that as parents, we do have a responsibility to open up the conversation. It might even start off very awkward. I mean, I know ours really did, but we're really cultivating a safe place. We're reminding our kids, hey, the world's gonna tell you a lot of things, but we need you to come to us and you can come to us, and we're gonna give you the best answer we can, and it's gonna be based on biblical truth.

And we're gonna tell you too, where we feel like we've done this right and where we've really gone wrong and what we've learned. And thankfully, they do bring us some questions. There's been times where I have to, Dave has to grab my arms to wipe the shock off my face because I'm like, what?

Speaker 1

Just be shocked later, not right now.

Speaker 2

This is what we want I'm curious.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah. We meet a ton of couples who say family life helped them when they needed it the most. And that's what being a family life partner is all about, helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.

Speaker 4

And we'd love for you to join us. So click the donate button@familylife today.com and become a partner today.

Speaker 3

Do it. I don't know. That might have been.

Speaker 4

You did a really good one.

Speaker 3

It might have been a one taker.

Speaker 2

You want to talk about the bus?

Speaker 1

Yeah. I think it was early in the book. Like, one of our son's first day of eighth grade.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1

Came home and he was like, hey, is it normal? Like, do girls really like it when guys, like, text pictures of their private parts to them? And we're like, what?

Speaker 2

This is eighth grade? Eighth grade.

Speaker 1

He was like, yeah, these boys on the bus were. They were taking pictures of their private parts and then trying to show people and laughing and texting them and saying, girls love getting pictures like this.

And he was like, I could tell he was really confused and troubled by it.

Speaker 4

It, but I love that he came to you.

Speaker 1

He came to us, yes. And I'm so glad he did. And so. And Ashley instead, like, I think her instinct was like, who are they? That's we're gonna arrest them?

Speaker 2

And I'm just shocked, you know, you just don't expect it. In eighth grade.

Speaker 1

I just said, man, thank you. Thank you for trusting us with this. And I said, first off, like, no, it's not good. In fact, it's illegal for underage people to be taking those pictures or receiving those pictures or anybody to receive pictures of an underage person. And so first off, it's illegal. Oh, that's good.

Speaker 4

I like that you said it's illegal because that puts. Puts fear into our children.

Speaker 3

For sure.

Speaker 1

It's considered child pornography. And we talked about all that. And I said, but. But it's wrong. I said, and we talked about the why it's wrong and how it's disrespectful. It's violating, like, all of those things. And. And we're able to unpack it. And he listened. And he goes, yeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought it was pretty weird, but I was just making sure. And like. And he just went on with his day, like. Like, video games, but being able to, like. And then we're looking at each other like, oh, my gosh, what's happening? But not freaking out in front of your kids is huge.

Speaker 4

I Like you putting your hand up.

Speaker 1

He's been a lot of these moments.

Speaker 4

That is me.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

It's that mama bear.

Speaker 1

Yeah. She calms me down a lot. But with this kind of stuff, I'm usually the one like, we'll freak out later. Now's not the time.

Speaker 4

Our oldest son at one point was listening to this music. I am like, you guys, I can get so hot.

Speaker 3

It's fun when she gets hot.

Speaker 4

Is this, like, music from Satan itself? You're not playing this music in my house. And Dave just kind of like, you know, and he pulls the CD out of the trash can. He's like, hey, so what are you, like, tell me about this music. Like, I just have to go in the other room and cool off a little bit.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

Yes. I've been there many times.

Speaker 1

That's right. Yeah.

Speaker 3

But obviously, you've created a safe net where they feel like they can bring up that kind of stuff. A lot of homes would be like, no way I could ever talk to mom and dad about this. So, I mean, obviously, it's in what you talked about with familylife.com sextalk. How do you have this talk with your kids? How did you develop an environment in your home where they felt safe to bring this kind of stuff up? Is this something you started talking about since they were little boys?

Speaker 1

We did. And I think we realized early, like, this is something we cannot outsource.

Speaker 2

Right.

Speaker 1

Because the world would love you to outsource these conversations and just send. Send them to the Internet or send them to somebody else or let the friends at school fill in the gaps, and they're going to get so many wrong messages that way. Like, this is. We signed up to be parents. This was one of those key responsibilities that, like, we have to instill these core values about respect, about God's plan for sexual. And, yeah, it can be uncomfortable sometimes. Man, these are some of the most important conversations we'll ever have. And if you're listening to this and you feel not equipped, you feel like, oh, my goodness, because of my own past, or I don't want those things to come up or to answer hard questions. Your kids aren't expecting you to be perfect, but they need you to be present. They need you to be honest and to just guide them. Guide them through this with what you did right, with what you did wrong. There's so much at stake. And you. You've got this. You're the most qualified person on Earth to have these conversations with your children.

Speaker 2

And in the resource how to talk to your kids about sex. We really talk through it like we have a parental video for parents only before they watch the video with their child. But then the most important part of all this is the conversation they will have after watching that video with their child.

Speaker 4

So they're watching the video together?

Speaker 2

Yes, yes. And that way the child can ask questions or not, or the parent can pose questions or say, hey, was something unclear? Do you wanna ask me a question about this? Because I know sometimes this can be really nerve wracking. And I know when I was your age, this was an awkward conversation with my parents or my parents didn't know how to talk to me about this, you know, and that was really my experience. I have wonderful parents, but they didn't know how to talk to me about this. And I really think it went back to their own past. They didn't know how to address that or how to share it with me, or if I would ask questions that they didn't know how to answer. And so I remember going into marriage and we did get married young. So maybe my poor par parents didn't have enough time to gather their thoughts, but they just, you know, it wasn't talked about really. It was just shut down. And I remember when we were, you know, having, we had young children, we knew someday we'd have to have these talks with them. We wanted to do it differently and really get ahead of it. Because the truth is, younger and younger kids are being exposed to mixed messages about sex. And I think a lot of parents, you know, we want to live in denial and think, well, not my baby, you know, he or she's not going to be exposed at their school. It's a good school and there's not going to be a kid with a cell phone showing them an image. And I just want to burst that bubble and say, tragically, it's everywhere. I mean, I've taught in a Christian school and I've taught in a public school. And I can tell you kids are kids everywhere. And the only difference was in a Christian school, I could actually talk to them and pray with them. But other than that, they're kids and kids are curious and we want to get ahead of that curiosity and really talk to them about how sex is a powerful gift from God and how, you know, they have license over the bodies that God gave them. And so therefore they have boundaries they need to put in place with people and they need to respect other people's boundaries. And, you know, we just wanted to help parents with this resource to have these Conversations and to not feel like they're ill equipped because you're their parents. I mean, and with that, God gave you that authority to be their teacher and to get equipped and be able to answer those hard questions.

Speaker 4

I love that you guys are doing the heavy lifting of it too, because they're watching it. You guys are saying a bunch of this great stuff. And it's just this. It's an on ramp to a conversation.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 4

And I think that's really needed for us. Like, oh, okay, they're gonna talk about it and then I'm just gonna kind of. We're gonna walk together through it. I think it's so needed. I love it. I love that you guys are doing this.

Speaker 1

Thank you. We try to create what we wish we would have had.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

So we had some tools that helped. You know, some of those were from family life. Yeah, sure, we're thankful for that. But it's like, what do we wish we would have had? And that's what we tried to create with the team here.

Speaker 4

And it's a different day.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's a different day. The challenges are different, the temptations are different, the questions are different. The core principles are always going to be the same about sex. But I'm really excited about this resource and I really do hope that it brings parents and kids closer together with each other, create some bonding moments, and also takes away some of the fear around these talks and equips the next generation with some tools that are going to help them walk the beautiful path God has for them.

Speaker 3

And I mean, obviously it's one of the best ways you can respect each other. And your book's about boys respecting men, respecting their women. One of the most, I think, fascinating, and you have a chapter on it. Studies I ever did way back, was how Jesus was the model in that culture of elevating and respecting women. I remember when I was studying this and getting a grip on it as sort of a seminary student, there was a TV show, you guys are too young to remember that was really popular, called LA Law.

Speaker 2

Oh, I know, LA Law.

Speaker 1

Remember, we were into it.

Speaker 3

We were living in California at the time, so we thought we were LA people.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 3

But there was an actress, I don't know what her name was, she was popular on the show, but there was a quote that came out around that time from her about Jesus. And again, I could look it up and tell you her name, but she said this. I'm not a Christian because of what Jesus did to women. I'm not going to follow A man that did what he did to women. And I wanted to call her and go, you have no idea how he elevated women.

Speaker 1

Oh my gosh, more so than anybody in history.

Speaker 3

Explain that a little bit.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

Well, how did Jesus.

Speaker 1

I'm so glad you brought that up, Dave. It's my favorite chapter in the book.

Speaker 2

Mine too.

Speaker 1

Is it? It is because Jesus is our role model for all things. But I don't think we always think of him as being the role model for how men should respect women. And he set the bar so high. The way he valued women, the way he made women the heroes in stories that he told, which was never an echo here, the way he honored them in his conversations, the way he sought them out and brought them into the ministry and allowed them to lead and serve and use their God given gifts. And the way he took time to meet their needs, the way he allowed them to participate in meeting the needs of the ministry. There were women that were financial contributors as well to helping the ministry go forward. It was radically countercultural in that day, in that time, in that place. The way that Jesus elevated women that we might look at today and say, yeah, well, that's the way that it should be. But back then, nobody was doing this. Nobody, Nobody. I mean, he was revolutionary, of course, in so many ways. But what we don't talk about enough is how revolutionary he was in elevating and respecting women.

Speaker 3

So as a boy, as a man, we have to follow Jesus, right?

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

That's the model.

Speaker 4

I mean, I think of John 4, of the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman. How many things that he did in that Jewish culture that would have never been done. One, that he would talk to a Samaritan woman as a rabbi, that he would touch something, asking her for a drink, which means she would have touched it, which means he would have touched it, which you're not allowed to do that. I was on a flight to Israel with some Orthodox Jewish men and they couldn't sit in the seat beside one of our women, really. And so he had to get the flight attendant. They had to move. There were so many different things that they were obeying the custom of their faith. And I'm imagining Jesus having this conversation with this woman alone, even talking to her and initiating the conversation. It's like all the rules are broken, but it's his. Like he sees her. He sees her and in the midst of seeing her, respects her and gives her dignity and talk about a woman that was walking with shame. And he elevates like it's phenomenal of what. How countercultural he was and still is in so many ways.

Speaker 2

Right. I love that. It's one of my favorites.

Speaker 4

Me, too.

Speaker 3

So as we sort of bring this to a close, is there, like, if you think. And I know it's now it's 20, 25. We're six years removed from when this was published. Top three. If you can come up with three, maybe there's 10 ways for men to respect women, boys to respect girls. What are the top ones that come to your mind?

Speaker 1

Wow.

Speaker 4

We should do two and two.

Speaker 1

Two and two.

Speaker 3

Two and two.

Speaker 1

All right. Yeah.

Speaker 4

We'll see if there's.

Speaker 1

I'll try to give two that are just. I don't have a top two, but just two. Two that are good. So I think one. One of the things in the research for this book that really stood out to me is how much more often women are interrupted than men just in conversation. And, I mean, I talk fast. And just in general, I've tried to be less of an interrupter, but for men and women, I've been an interrupter. And I'm sorry. Probably even in this interview. Forgive me. Of course.

Speaker 4

It's funny. I've always. Is this what you're gonna say?

Speaker 3

I don't know what you're gonna say. I know what you're gonna say.

Speaker 4

I notice that if when you're on stage or even here, if you guys interrupt or each other, you're like, oh, I'm really sorry. That that has always stuck out to me. You've always done it. Both of you do that.

Speaker 3

And I've noticed, you know, videos I see online where you're teaching at a marriage conference, you let Ashley talk, and you don't interrupt. There are times I cut her off. She'll say something. I'm like, dave is really respecting her. It's her moment. And you can tell by the way you're looking at her, you're like, this is really good. Isn't just like, she's talking.

Speaker 1

I got a front row seat to some gold here.

Speaker 3

But that's respect. It's modeled the way you treat myself.

Speaker 1

We try and try to teach that to our boys that don't. Don't interrupt. Value what women have to say and give them the floor, you know? And so that's one. What's one that you have?

Speaker 2

I know. I keep coming back to it, but I would say the eyes. The eyes are so important. Where your eyes go. I think a husband will build so much security and trust in his wife. If he can just divert his eyes, I mean, again, you can notice something. But diverting your eyes. And you do that for me. We try to teach our boys to do the same thing. And I just know it doesn't go unseen. And I appreciate that. Whether it's a TV show, on a lot of shows these days, it could be the number one show on Netflix. You start watching it and all of a sudden something crazy like a huge sex scene goes on. And we'll immediately fast forward or just turn it off. And that's also diverting your eyes. Right? And I feel like. And this is in the open places, and even more so in the secret places, just not even letting the enemy get a foothold, I think is so important. But a lot of it starts right there in the eyes. And then it's what you allow yourself to think about, you know?

Speaker 3

Do you know?

Speaker 2

Because that's how you get ahold of lust.

Speaker 3

Steve Farrar. Do you know that name?

Speaker 1

I don't think so.

Speaker 3

Steve was on our Family Life Speaker. We can Remember speaker team. So right when we joined, we were much younger than him. So he was. And he wrote a book called Point Man. And he had a military background as a guy who leads platoon into point Man. So he's like, you're the point man of your family. Great book about manhood. Just an amazing guy. And I'll never forget a story he tells in the book. This is 30 some years ago, where he just says, they're sitting at a stoplight and he's with his teenage son. And a girl walks across to go to the other side. And his son turns to his dad and goes, dad, you never look. He goes, what? He goes, I've watched you my whole life. Women walk by. That girl was very pretty. She wasn't dressed. You never look. And Steve says, I turned him and said, yeah, there's times I have. But his point is they're watching.

Speaker 1

They are watching.

Speaker 3

They're watching every second. And what he was saying to you, his dad, was, you respect women.

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 3

And I'm watching and I'm learning how to be a man.

Speaker 1

That's the most powerful lesson, more than anything we'll say is just what we're doing as parents and as dads. In this case, that's what they're watching. Right? So let's make sure we're respecting women.

Speaker 3

Our eyes, our words, our body. I mean, porn is the ultimate disrespect of women.

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

It's just like that is a signal to the world. They don't matter. They're just property, right? I mean, yeah, it is so many things.

Speaker 4

Any other ones that come to your mind right off the top?

Speaker 2

Well, he mentioned words, and I would say it's not just how you talk to your spouse, which is extremely important, not just for your spouse, but for your kids, if you have children in the home, but also how you talk about women. Like, we know people, and it shows in their marriage, too, but they just have a derogatory view of women, and it probably goes back to how they were raised, and they don't even realize it because, you know, if you're a fish in water, you don't know what it's like to be out of the water till you are, and you're like, oh, there's another. We can exist another way. And so I think it's just taking, really praying and saying, lord, reveal to me any blind spots I have and how I view women and help me to heal from that. Because I think that if you have this negative view of women, like, all women are XYZ or, you know, oh, you know, I'm looking because she's putting it out there. I've heard that before. Well, I'm looking only because she's, you know, showing her midriff. So she wants me to look. You know, all these excuses that we. These lies. We believe, right? That we make excuses in our life, but we really. I think what it comes down to is just a really negative view of women. And I think taking those thoughts captive and really, really just thinking more positively, but also more respectfully about women, because then that's how you're gonna speak about them, right? And really taking, you know, thinking about, how do I speak about women in my home? Is it always talking something negative about this woman at work or the neighbor who's a woman, or about your wife when your wife isn't around? I mean, really think about that, because it not only has effect on the people, has an effect on the people around you, it perpetuates your next thought. You know, if you're always thinking negatively and always speaking negatively and disrespectfully, then that's all you're gonna do.

Speaker 4

I would piggyback on that and say the words that Dave says about me in front of our boys. Like, I think it's one of his greatest gifts. He's constantly complimenting me. That's awesome.

Speaker 3

You're easy to compliment.

Speaker 4

No, you are so good at it. And I've watched our sons model that with their wives, and I know that it's because you have always been like my biggest cheerleader. Like, oh, your mom's amazing that. That you should have seen your mom do that back in the day. And I'm like, man, you are so nice to me. And it's such a. Such a sweet gift, and it's such a great model for our kids to hear us complimenting our spouse.

Speaker 1

That's so good.

Speaker 4

Both ways.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

The one I'll footnote. Your footnote, or whatever you just said.

Speaker 4

Piggyback.

Speaker 3

Piggyback. Your piggyback. One of the ways I think I disrespected Ann and men can do this and it can go either way is I would be harsh in my tone. Even sometimes I'm saying the right thing. But it's like sort of with a know it all attitude, sort of like it's a roll of the eyes. Like, that was stupid. You're stupid. And she would say, I remember one time she said, I am not stupid. I'm like, I didn't say you're stupid.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you're eye rolls.

Speaker 3

That is so disrespect. Absolutely. And I didn't realize I had it. You want to hear a funny story? Which we put in our vertical marriage, small group deal. But she tried to tell me that I was that way. You know, like, you're harsh at times and, you know, it was so a blind spot. I'd be like, I'm not harsh. And she's like, exhibit A, you know.

Speaker 1

The way you said.

Speaker 3

And we're at her parents and with the kids were little and they all had boys. All her siblings had boys. We had 12 grandsons, no granddaughters. And so they're all over the place. And I've got this little camcorder with the, you know, back in the VCR days, I'm filming this thing. And later the. The parents came in and everybody comes in. We're going to watch this video I made. And at the end of the video, and everybody's watching.

Speaker 4

When you were filming it.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And now we're watching it. I go up. You can see it on the camera. I go up to turn it off. And I thought I turned it off, but I didn't. So you see me do this. I come back and we get into. And my harshness is right there.

Speaker 4

Oh, wow. And my mom's family is in the room, and my mom and dad are like, oh, my.

Speaker 3

Her brothers are like, dude, I'm running up there, like, stopping right there. And I'm like, there it is.

Speaker 4

Everything.

Speaker 3

She tried to tell Me, I was.

Speaker 1

You said, I saw it.

Speaker 3

I'm like, you guys, I'm an idiot. I am a jerk. I am a know it all punk. That's what I was.

Speaker 1

Most of us don't know. I mean, Ashley, you said to me before, like, sometimes, like, you don't know. Like, I'm not meaning anything, like. But your tone, how you're coming. Not. Not just like, to her, but just like, in general. I'll get going about something. She. And she's like, you seem like. So I'm like, I'm not angry, I'm just passionate.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

She goes like, well, you don't. She's very gentle, but she'll say, you don't know how you're coming across. You're not seeing it. I'm not seeing the VHS tape of myself or if I saw it, I'd be like, I look like an idiot. And so you gotta trust your spouse when they point out those blind spots.

Speaker 4

Well, it's funny too, because Dave, this was a battle for. I remember, like four months trying to say. It's that when you say that or you give me that look, it just shuts my face spirit down. And he's like, you know, rolling his.

Speaker 3

Eyes again, like, which is disrespect.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

And I remember I couldn't figure out how to communicate it. But you know what I do remember doing is praying, like, lord, he can't see it. I need, like, if this isn't a deal, then I just need to stop being so sensitive. But, Lord, if I could communicate it and you can help me to figure out how to communicate it, I think that would be really helpful. So I'm watching him like, this is God.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

God made a way.

Speaker 1

God's like, I got this, man.

Speaker 4

I got you, girl.

Speaker 1

I got video evidence.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

VHS for the win.

Speaker 3

I don't like that prayer. No, I know, but it definitely, definitely helped. Well, let me say this just as we wrap up, go to familylife.com sextalk to get the video course from you guys. We're so glad you guys did that for family life.

Speaker 4

This is a gift to family life.

Speaker 3

What a blessing that's gonna be for. So it's really going to help. And obviously share this podcast and this YouTube, whatever you watch. This is a great conversation for men and boys to understand how to respect women. And it's really both ways.

Speaker 2

Absolutely.

Speaker 4

And for women to listen to, to even know how to communicate. And maybe you listen to it as a woman think, oh, we need to talk about this as a couple so that we can be on the same page with our kids.

Speaker 3

I didn't mention we'll also have the book there. Well, actually, with the books@familylifetoday.com, click on the show notes and get it. I mean, this thing, you know, it's gonna become a bestseller after this conversation again.

Speaker 4

Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button and we'd.

Speaker 3

Like you to subscribe. So all you gotta do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this.

Speaker 4

Word like and subscribe.

Speaker 1

Look at that.

Speaker 3

You say it so easy. Subscribe. There he goes.