FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

When you say, okay, I'm a Christian and I'm gonna make sure I don't look at pornography. I'm gonna make sure I don't sleep around. Like, I'm just gonna control this part of my life.

Speaker 2

Which some people are hearing that, like, wait, what's wrong with that?

Speaker 3

What's wrong with that? Yeah, yeah, I should control that.

Speaker 1

It's not surrender.

Speaker 2

I'm pretty excited to have Julie slatter.

Speaker 3

I have no idea why.

Speaker 2

I love you.

Speaker 1

We're so.

Speaker 3

You guys are like sisters.

Speaker 2

I don't know. I wish she was my sister.

Speaker 3

She says she is. Sisters in Christ.

Speaker 2

I know.

Speaker 3

Why are you excited? Really? I want to hear it.

Speaker 2

Because, Julie, I think her wisdom on this topic that we're talking about today, sexuality.

Speaker 3

Julie never talks about sexuality. Do you? Just this one time.

Speaker 1

Just this one time for you guys.

Speaker 2

Because she brings practical help and hope in a biblical, grounded way that makes us all lean in because the world's wondering what's happening in our lives when it comes to sexuality.

Jesus, are you in it? How can we trust you?

And you do such a good job, Julie, of answering all those questions.

And I think Dave and I are just excited because we learn from you every time. Don't you think we do?

Speaker 3

Oh, for sure. I don't think I'm going to make a pretty big statement here. In my opinion, I don't think there's anybody better on this topic.

Speaker 2

Me, too.

Speaker 3

And I know our listeners know you pretty well, but we get to hang out with you and Mike, your husband. How many years? Been married?

Speaker 1

30.

Speaker 3

30 years. Wow.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So remind our listeners. And now we have watchers. They're watching us on these cameras on YouTube. How did you end up in this lane, ministry wise? I don't think you chose it.

Speaker 1

No, I didn't.

Speaker 3

It chose you.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

We've asked you this before, but for our new listeners, I think it'd be good to hear this.

Speaker 3

I mean, we're talking about surrendered sexuality. So, I mean, how'd you. How'd you end up here?

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, my background is in clinical psychology, and I've always had a heart for marriage and family issues. For the first, I don't know, 15, 20 years of ministry, I was a generalist, you know, like writing on women's issues and marriage issues and doing counseling.

Then, I guess it would be about 13 years ago, God just really dramatically took me through this deep time with him of months and months and months of seeking him. He just burdened my heart for sexuality, and it was a long journey to get there. But it was so profound and heavy that it was like I knew that I knew that I knew that this is what God was calling me to do.

Speaker 2

When you say he burdened you, what did that feel like?

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, for a while was literally a physical pain in my chest.

Speaker 2

Really?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

It wasn't a health related deal?

Speaker 1

No. Actually, my husband was concerned and made me go see a cardiologist. But I told him, I said, this is spiritual.

Speaker 2

You told Mike that or the doctor?

Speaker 1

I did both.

Speaker 2

You did?

Speaker 1

I said, yeah, because it happened. It started happening when I was on a prayer and fasting retreat and just, you know, like, really feeling like the Holy Spirit was just getting ahold of me.

And then it would, like, wake me up in the middle of the night.

Speaker 2

With the pain or with this topic.

Speaker 1

The pain. So it started with the pain, and then I had a mentor, Linda Dillo, who was discipling me through this. And she said, you need to start asking God what his call on your life is.

Speaker 2

It reminds me of Samuel and Eli, when Samuel kept hearing God call him, and then Eli saying, say, here I am, Lord. That's what you're saying, right? What are you saying to me?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I was a little older than Samuel, but I still remember it was in July, being on my knees and just asking the Lord, what are you calling me to? What's this pain about? What's this season about?

And him really clearly, like, just. I kept hearing the words from Isaiah 61 over and over again. You know, like, I'm sending you to bind up the brokenhearted and release captives, you know, prisoners in captivity.

And I didn't know where that was from, so I googled it and I found the passage.

Speaker 2

Wait, what?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I was like, I knew it was familiar, but so I Google it. I read the passage I write in my Bible, the date. This is your call in my life.

Speaker 3

You wrote that in your Bible?

Speaker 1

I did, yeah. July of 2011. And then I knew it was about biblical sexuality. I knew it was about, like, all these people crying out to the Lord, where are you? In my sexual pain. And that's all I knew.

And then God just led me, step by step, to start the ministry, Authentic Intimacy. I've been on a learning journey. I feel like I learn and then I teach. I learn and then I teach. So I keep learning.

Speaker 3

I mean, even as I'm looking at this passage again, I'm just gonna read it for our listeners who maybe aren't Googling it right now. I've never read it with that thought in mind. Of people in sexual bondage and needing freedom.

Spirit of the Lord. This is Isaiah 61:1. The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to those who are bound.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And you knew that it was going to be about sexuality?

Speaker 1

I did.

Speaker 2

How did you know that part?

Speaker 1

I just knew.

Speaker 2

You knew?

Speaker 1

I just knew.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I mean, was that an emphasis in your studies or anything?

Speaker 1

No, no. I'd written a book for wives on sexuality and done some speaking just because nobody else would.

But I'm sure you've been in that position before. Like, we need somebody to talk about sex.

But I wouldn't have ever volunteered to do that. Didn't feel like an expert in it. Had my own struggles related to it.

Speaker 2

So it's interesting, Julie, because I talk to women that are like, I feel like God's calling me to something and I don't know what it is. Based on what you've gone through, what would you say to them?

Speaker 1

Seek God. Don't seek the calling. And when he wants to move, you know what it is; you know the steps of obedience you need to take.

You know, if you ask me what I'm going to be doing a year from now, I can't tell you. But I know what it is to seek him and trust him daily. And he lets you know.

Speaker 2

I like that. And you didn't even start researching or studying any of this until you first knew his calling?

Speaker 3

I mean, is there in your mind, that was 13 years ago.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Is there a difference in the. In the culture, even in the church, with sexuality than it was when you started?

Speaker 1

Oh, huge difference.

Speaker 3

I mean, when we speak and, you know, I know you speak around, and whenever we do Q and A, we're talking about marriage. Not always sexuality, marriage.

And 90% of the questions are about sex. And it's usually really heartbroken people that are really struggling with that.

It feels like a different day than it was 20 years ago.

Speaker 1

It definitely is. I think, first of all, Dave, we're more open about our struggles.

Speaker 3

We are. We keep ours all.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Right. We don't tell anybody.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

You couldn't have the same conversations, even on family life, 20 years ago than you could have today. And so when we first started the ministry, like churches would say, we really want you to come speak. But either we don't have these issues in our church or we're afraid what will happen if you do. You know, like, there are a lot of closed doors.

And now everybody's like, please come and speak to us. We have all these issues. We don't know what to do about them. And to some extent, all of that brokenness and confusion was there. We just didn't talk about it.

But then there's another layer of the confusion being deeper and more pervasive. The pornography use, both for men and women, and then all the questions about gender identity and sexual identity, the confusion about, you know, even like, is God's word loving? Is it good on these topics, cohabitation rights, like, all these things have become normalized in Christian culture, particularly among the younger generation.

So the questions are more complex. I think the foundations of even how we think about this topic have become so muddled that it's a different day than it was when I started the ministry.

Speaker 2

I think we're hungry for answers.

And I think, especially if we have kids that are growing up in this culture, I think parents are at their wits end. Like, I don't know what to say, what's biblically true.

And so I feel like your message is needed more than ever before.

Speaker 3

So let me write down.

Speaker 2

What are you writing down?

Speaker 3

I'm writing down a question that I just thought of based on what you just said, that I'm going to save for the bonus section of our podcast. You probably know this. We have people that support Family Life monthly. We call them Partners, Family Life Partners.

And so we've added a little section to our podcast where those who support us are on our team, get to stay on. And so I'm saying that because we'd like you to join our team and we give you bonus material like this question I'm asking Julie later.

I can tell you what it is, but if you're a partner, you can join us. Go to familylifetoday.com and click on the donate button and jump in. And you can hear that, too.

Speaker 2

Well, Julie, this new book that you're writing called Surrendered Sexuality, give us a little insight into the background because you just told me as we were having lunch today, this has been your hardest book to write.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

Interesting. And I wanted to know about the title, too.

Speaker 1

I didn't do.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, that was just for me.

Speaker 3

That was your bonus show.

Speaker 1

It actually happened in the women's room. We were talking about.

Speaker 2

It actually did. I wasn't gonna say it, Jul. But now that you put it out.

Speaker 1

There, we're going to be transparent.

Speaker 3

Men do not talk in the bathroom. We don't even look at each other. Women go in there and talk. I don't even want to know.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you don't want to know.

Speaker 3

So this has been the hardest one to write.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it was. It's written now, so I'm thankful it's done, but, yeah, I battled with writing this book.

Speaker 3

Like, you were already into the project.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Why?

Speaker 2

Too hard.

Speaker 1

It was too hard. Yeah.

Speaker 3

What's hard? What do you mean?

Speaker 2

Hmm.

Speaker 3

Had to be something.

Speaker 1

Yes. I think one thing that was hard is to write a book to the general Christian audience on sexuality, where I now am so aware of the multiple pain points.

And so, you know, somebody's going to pick up this book who has horrendous sexual trauma in their past.

And, you know, somebody who's gonna pick up this book who really thinks that God created them to be gay and loving God would let them marry the person they want to marry.

Speaker 2

That's what they're thinking.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And, you know, somebody is gonna pick up the book who is addicted to pornography and hasn't told a soul and on and on and on. Like, I have all these people in my mind that I've walked with. Writing a book of biblical truth, the journey of how do we surrender this area of our life to God? Knowing, particularly in those first few chapters, all the things that will be triggered and all the questions that will be raised. It just was so difficult.

And then I had a pilot study going through it with me as I wrote, and they were being very honest about how it was hitting them, and some of it was difficult for them. So it was just wanting to be sensitive to how tender this topic is, but wanting to be bold with biblical truth. So I think that's.

And then there's the spiritual element to it, the spiritual warfare. Yeah. Of just the discouragement. And, you know, I think when God really calls us to something, it's something that we can't do in our own strength and wisdom.

Speaker 2

I think the word "surrendered" is probably my favorite word in the Christian life, because to me, that's my theme. I think it really is for anybody; if we want to live and walk with Jesus, it's like laying down our lives in every single area.

And so this word "surrendered," sexuality. I'm thinking you're very intentional about that word that goes alongside it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Yeah. I've learned over 13 years of ministry in this space that sexuality is very often a wall between people and God. Yes. And I'm not just talking about unbelievers; I'm talking about Christians who know they're supposed to be giving their whole life to the Lord, laying their body down before the altar as a living sacrifice, loving Him with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength.

But this is a piece of their life that feels impossible to surrender for one reason or another. It becomes compartmentalized, and they don't know what to do with it. The enemy really camps there, leading them to think, "Well, I can't surrender. I can't serve God. I can't be available to Him. God can't save me. God can't help me because I've got this pocket over here that I don't know what to do with, and I'm not sure God even sees or cares about."

So the book really is not so much about sexuality; it's really more about the Christian journey. What does it mean to bring something to Jesus, trust Him, and work through all of the shame, all the pain, and the questions with your eyes fixed on Him?

Speaker 2

Have you ever had anything like that? The sexuality area that has been hard to grapple with, to take that to Jesus and surrender?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think more than once, I think I've talked publicly about how this was not a good area in our marriage.

And just like, where's the goodness of God in it and the pain and the struggle?

And then there are other situations that I can't speak publicly about where this has just been an area of real pain for me.

So, you know, I feel it.

Speaker 2

You've experienced it yourself?

Speaker 1

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2

And I'm thinking of the pockets. We named a lot of them, like pornography, sexual trauma, abuse, gender, gender. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

Or even as a parent, you know, so many parents who are like, my child is transitioning genders or has just told me that they're gay and they're getting married to the person they love. Like, I feel torn, like, do I serve God or do I love my child?

And so in my ministry, these are the stories I hear daily. My husband has cheated on me, been addicted to pornography. I don't know what to do.

And so I just see, like, this is a pain point that the enemy uses to divide us from the love of Christ.

Speaker 2

And so much of it's a secret because of the shame we carry along with it.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 3

So how do we surrender our sexuality? I mean, in some ways, I'm thinking. I don't know. I think it was Billy Graham that said the average Person, when they get baptized, takes their wallet and holds it up out of the water.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

Like, baptize all of me, but my money. I'm not going to, you know, and.

Speaker 2

As a pastor or my calendar. My calendar's in my phone, and so that's up there, too.

Speaker 3

But I. You know, when I think of that, I think a lot of people feel the same way about their sexuality. It's like, I'm giving everything to Jesus.

But this part, you know, I came to Christ in college, and that was my first. First question to my mentor. So what's God think of sexuality? Can I have sex if I can?

Speaker 2

I went into a Christian bookstore at 18 years old. I know I was 17 because I didn't know. I didn't grow up in the church. Nothing was written about it back then. I went into a Christian bookstore, which I felt like, this is a piece of heaven. This is an amazing place.

And I wanted to go ask the lady that was behind the desk, can you point me to a book that tells me if it's okay to have sex before I get married? That's what I wanted to say, but I felt too much shame.

And then I almost asked Dave because he was a friend, but I was too embarrassed to ask him. But there's just a shroud of secrecy and shame.

Speaker 3

Maybe that's why we ended up together. We both have the same first question.

Speaker 1

Have you figured it out?

Speaker 3

I don't know if we have 45 years in, but it is a sense, like. And, you know, as I disciple men, they're like, I'm good with everything in this area. Please tell me I don't have to surrender that.

Especially if they're not married, they're thinking, I still want to have sex outside of marriage. And it's like, no, God has a better plan.

So is that what surrendered is a little bit about? It's all the above?

Speaker 1

Yeah. That's why they're not. That's why I wrote a whole book on it. Honestly, I think I've seen people do one of three things instead of a surrender.

I've seen them compartmentalize. And I mean, even you see this dramatic kind of expression of that when we see Christian leaders who have this pocket of something that they've not disclosed, and it blows up. Well, that happens every day in real Christian, like, just normal Christian lives, not just leaders, where it's like, oh, I can have this little secret struggle or lust, addiction, whatever relationship that I don't tell anybody about, and I can still go to church and read my Bible and serve God and just have a wall. So you can compartmentalize.

Another thing you see is compromise. Like, you know, I just don't think God meant that to be true for our day and age. We know so much more now than we did when Paul was writing his letters and when Jesus lived that if they were around today, they would be a little looser on this stuff.

And then I see the third approach is they try to control their behavior. And that's not surrender. When you say, okay, I'm a Christian and I'm gonna make sure I don't look at pornography, I'm gonna make sure I don't sleep around. Like I'm just gonna control this part of my life.

Speaker 2

Which some people are hearing that like, wait, what's wrong with that?

Speaker 3

What's wrong with that? Yeah, I should control that.

Speaker 1

It's not surrender. And that'll only work for so long. And you know, you talk to somebody who would say, I haven't looked at porn in three months. And it's all their own willpower. It's not been surrendered to the Lord. Like there's a matter of time where that dam is going to break because we're just not strong enough in our own strength.

Speaker 3

So what's it look like to be surrendered and not just controlled.

Speaker 1

Surrender means that you give that whole part of yourself to the Lord. You know, let's take the example of pornography underneath pornography. Use our belief systems that sex is about me consuming and me feeling happy and me objectifying people. You also almost always have pornography self medicating something. So I don't know how to deal with my depression, my anxiety, my loneliness, maybe my trauma. And so when you try to control your behavior but you're not inviting God into those other areas of your wounding and how you're thinking how you're doing life at best, you're just going to move to another addiction. So surrender is God. I can't stop on my own.

Speaker 2

So it's admitting that, confessing it and.

Speaker 1

Inviting him in, everything, you know, it's not just inviting him in to change my behavior, it's inviting him in to remake all of who I am in the image of Christ.

Speaker 2

And that's your prayer?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So have you seen that with people you've worked with?

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

Where the surrender is the thing.

Speaker 2

You always have such great stories.

Speaker 3

Yeah, tell us a story without telling us a name.

Speaker 1

Oh man, so many.

Speaker 3

Really.

Speaker 1

There's a lot of stories in the book.

Speaker 2

I love that.

Speaker 1

Yeah, there's a story of a pastor That I know who I struggle with. Pornography, Came to know the Lord in college.

Speaker 3

Hey, this isn't me, in case people are listening, because all of that is true. I was a pastor, struggled with pornography, came. Yeah, so this is another pastor.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And so he didn't tell anybody in his church. And he felt horrible about it, shameful about it, like, even doubted his salvation. And he kept praying that God would take away the struggle and that he'd stop sinning. And he kept like he'd have success for a little bit of time and then fall back into it. And somewhere along the road, he got some good discipleship and mentoring, got connected with our ministry and began realizing that it's not about trying harder to not sin, it's really about intimacy with God. So the subtitle of this book is How Knowing Jesus Changes Everything. And when you think about surrender in this particular pastor's life, or so many others that I can tell you about, it's when we know Jesus in such a way that he's more powerful to us than our sin, is that the sin falls away. And so this pastor, you know, he shared his story a little bit in the book. I've shared his story with me and so many other people. Whether it's abuse or unforgiveness, surrender requires trust. And the problem is that most of us don't know Jesus well enough to trust him. And so when you say to somebody, a believer, like, just surrender your relationship to the Lord, your relationship with your boyfriend or girlfriend, or surrender your future to the Lord or your sexuality or this sin struggle, like, be honest, surrender it. Who are they surrendering to? You know, are they surrendering to a Jesus that kind of has echoes in the church? Are they surrendering to somebody that they know well enough to know that he will not condemn them and that he is for them and he will walk with them. And so all the stories I could share are not about one time epiphanies. It's about these journeys of realizing that I've come to know Jesus in such a way that he's greater, he's better. Yeah. And he's worthy of my surrender.

Speaker 2

I don't think a majority of the people know him like that.

Speaker 1

No.

Speaker 2

I think they see him as a God of judging, a God of rules, condemnation. I mean, I used to see him as the, in my young mind was he's the Old Testament, scary, holy, righteous God that could never be in my presence because I'm such a sinner and I have such a horrible past and he has to look away from me. And that's not who he is. When you read Scripture, especially as you read the New Testament and see how Jesus identifies, loves, is with people, he's not condoning their sin, but he gives them and offers grace, but freedom in their sin.

Speaker 1

I think most of us feel like, and I certainly felt this way, that we have to get our act together in order to have intimacy with God. And when you have sexual issues, whether they be past sins or current struggles or questions, you feel like, well, until I get this worked out, I can't be used by God. I can't know Him. I can't have intimacy with him where actually the opposite is true. It's through intimacy with him that the questions get answered and our wounds get healed and our sin struggles lose their power.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's really good. When you say that sex is never just about sex, you say that a lot. Sex is never just about the sex. Is that what you're talking about when you bring in the spiritual component?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I really believe that every sexual issue is also a spiritual issue. So there's something underneath. There is a spiritual river underneath what's happening sexually. And when we talk about sex in the church, we're often just talking about the behavior. We're not tapping into that deeper spiritual river of what's happening. How is this separating you from God? How is this creating doubt about his goodness? How is it keeping you from wanting to surrender your life fully to him? So that's what gets me excited, is the spiritual things that are happening underneath the sexual issues and questions.

Speaker 2

I like the spiritual river. That's a great word. Picture to me, a visual. So give us an example of that, of somebody that's like, okay, this is what I think it is, but it's a spiritual river.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So, you know, like, let's say there's an example of a couple that is having real issues in their sexual relationship. Maybe a temptation to have an affair or maybe even recover from an affair. The issue is, I'm not happy with my partner. Like, I'm more attracted to this other person. I think this other person would make me happier. That's what we see on the surface. And we say, don't do it like it's wrong. Don't have an affair. But if we look underneath, like, what's happening in that person's heart, they're beginning to doubt the goodness of God. They're beginning to believe that my fullest life doesn't come from following God. It comes from this other person or feeling good or feeling validated. And so that's an example of the spiritual river. Or after the affair happens, then there's the shame of I've blown it. Like, I can never be redeemed. Like my marriage could never be redeemed.

Speaker 2

And I'm not worthy to be redeemed.

Speaker 1

So either I have to hide this and not tell anyone, or sometimes people just give into the shame and they're like, well, I've blown it, so what does it matter? I might as well just live in sin for the rest of my life. So, you know, again, I think this idea of surrender is going to the deeper places of what's happening in the person's relationship with God, what's happening in their journey with God? How is sexuality either keeping them from knowing the love of God or even the sexual pain becoming an opportunity to draw them into knowing God? Like, why did Jesus bring up at the woman at the well? Why did he bring up her sexual brokenness?

Speaker 3

Why did he.

Speaker 1

Why do you think? You're the pastor.

Speaker 3

No, I'm just gonna. You wrote the book.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I'm gonna quote John Piper when he was writing about that encounter. He said Jesus knew that the quickest way to the heart is through a wound.

Speaker 2

Oh, I haven't heard that quote before. That's good.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So if you think about that, that's where our wounds live is often in our sexuality. It's in our rejection, it's in our longing, it's in our shame. And Jesus enters into that not to condemn us, but to stand there with us and to offer us life and living water. He knew that this is what this woman kept going back to to find life, and it wasn't fulfilling. And he said, hey, I can offer you what you're looking for. But he had to open that wound first, or they would have just been talking theology and never gotten to the heart.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Which, I mean, in some way, I gotta say this, that what you just said sounds like the churches or the Christian teaching for decades has been talk around it, behavior, never really underneath it, to the real issue. And so we grew up trying to abstain before marriage and control rather than getting to the river.

Speaker 1

So true. It is so true. And that's why we haven't been affected. Like, when you talk about the river of what's happening spiritually, I think the core of it is identity and what we believe about ourself. And so whether it's the shame that sexuality feeds or it's the lies that it feeds about, what makes me me in our Culture today, like Jesus, is all about changing identity, not behavior.

Speaker 3

Okay. You gotta go there.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

What are you talking about? Identity. That's big.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it is big.

Speaker 3

I mean, you talking about even the gender thing, all of it. Lgbt, all that, or.

Speaker 1

Sure. Okay. So, you know, I think a few years ago, I kind of came to this conclusion. The most important Bible passage about your sex life is this one.

Speaker 3

I think we're going to be surprised.

Speaker 1

Yeah. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. If you are in Christ, you are a new creation. Old things have passed away, and all things have become new.

Speaker 3

2 Corinthians 5.

Speaker 1

Right. See, I knew you'd know the address. Right there.

Speaker 3

17.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So when you think about it, all behavior comes from identity. What we believe about ourself and what we want to believe about ourself. And Jesus came to give us a new way of thinking about self. And so sexuality will get us chasing four different identities. Okay. The first one is that I find meaning through my sexuality. Self discovery. And that's kind of what you're getting at with the gender and lgbt. It's like, I can find my true self through my sexuality, and that's. That's a lie. And we could talk about why that's a lie.

Speaker 2

And they think by pursuing that, when I discover that and I pursue it, then I will be happy, Right?

Speaker 1

Yeah. And so filled.

Speaker 2

Like, I finally have discovered, oh, this is who I really am.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And that. And comes from a postmodern, humanistic view. It's not something that even existed when the Bible was being written. And we've only begun using words like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual within the last 130 years. Like, those words did not exist.

Speaker 2

But people will say, but that's been going on since the creation of the Bible.

Speaker 3

Yeah, the words are in the Bible.

Speaker 1

Well, the words that are in the Bible actually are words that describe behavior, not identity. It's men. See, with other men. Okay, so the behavior existed. But the words we use to describe.

Speaker 3

A person as an identity.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. Those were coined around the time of, like, Sigmund Freud. Interesting. And then transgender. Like, those words didn't appear in our language until, like, 1960. 1970. So we don't realize how new it is to be thinking about ourselves in terms of our sexual experiences or identities, because this is all we've ever known. So that's the first one is that sense of, I need to discover who I am by my sexuality.

Speaker 3

So what do you say to a parent who says, my son or my daughter says they are attracted to male. To Male, female to female. Or again, I'm throwing a lot in one question. Or if they're saying I'm a boy, but I think I'm a girl or.

Speaker 2

Girl, boy, identify as.

Speaker 3

And they're saying that's my identity as a parent.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

You know this. How do you articulate that to your son or daughter who's convinced. Don't tell me anything different. You're not living in this body. I am, and this is who I am.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Boy, that's. That's a question. We could spend a couple episodes unpacking there, David. Yeah. I think it starts with recognizing why your. Your child believes this and how indoctrinated we've been in our culture on this. And it's not just lgbt. Like, why do you think the average person gets married nowadays?

Speaker 3

Gets married?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

At all.

Speaker 2

To be happy.

Speaker 1

To be happy. I found my soulmate. You know, like, that's part of the postmodern culture, too, is, you know, it's all about my feelings. It's about this completing me. So, yeah, I think it begins with understanding how indoctrinated we are in that thinking about sexuality, marriage, romance, and presenting a completely alternative biblical worldview, which, again, when you hear a lot of teaching on marriage, even in the church, it's very postmodern. So we need to go back to our roots of what the scripture teaches on these things, not just when we're talking about lgbt, but understanding our sexual experiences and what the purpose of romance is and all of that.

Speaker 2

And I think a lot of people would say, well, Julie, I want to know that. Where in the world do I find it?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

In your book.

Speaker 2

I was gonna say that's why God called you, because there aren't very many people that are dealing with that specifically, and it's their entire ministry. And it is for you.

Speaker 1

It is. Yeah. So there's a whole chapter on surrendered thinking, which is chapter three. And if you've ever written a book, chapter three is, like, your power chapter.

Speaker 3

It's the turn.

Speaker 1

It's the most important one. And I really feel like in a Christian's walk in today's day and age, that's the most important thing, is to understand how much we think, like, the world thinks about our sexuality, how far we've gotten away from what a biblical theology of sexuality is.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 2

I'm thinking of all the parents.

Speaker 3

Well, she's got four of them. She just got one.

Speaker 2

Oh, I know. Wait, let me ask you this question about this area, because parents are listening, thinking, I want this. I want this for my kids, and I don't know how to help them with it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. But first we have to get it. You can only take someone as far as you've gone in discipleship, so you're.

Speaker 2

Not just handing them your book or a book as a parent.

Speaker 1

No, it's. We don't realize how much we've been indoctrinated because in the church, if you are, I use the term heterosexual, and you have a male, female marriage, you just take on a lot of the culture scripting without realizing it because it's not an obvious kind of affront to God's design for sex. But we're still thinking that way. And so I think it's critical. I've learned so much over the years of doing this ministry of how God needed to renew my thinking. We look at the topic of surrender like Romans 12, 1, 2. What's the first thing Paul says is your thinking has to be transformed. Don't be conformed to this world.

Speaker 2

Those are my favorite verses in the Bible because it has radically transformed me.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2

To not be through your mind first. We will be conformed to the world unless we allow Jesus to transform our minds.

Speaker 3

And we won't know the difference if we don't know the word.

Speaker 1

We won't.

Speaker 3

We just don't know.

Speaker 1

We just kind of swim in the water that we're in. In culture.

Speaker 3

Yeah, yeah. So what's the other ones? Identity, obviously. Huge.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So the first one is self discovery. The second one is shame. And there are a lot of Christians who live in a shame identity around their sexuality. Like, they can say to their friend or neighbor to look blue in the face, like God forgives you. Like, he no longer holds that offense against you, that abortion, that relationship, that pornography addiction. Like, you can tell your neighbor that, but when you ask them, you look them in the eye. Do you believe that you're forgiven? Like, I don't know. I think I'll go to heaven. But they talk as if they're condemned to living with a cloud of shame.

Speaker 2

Julie. I was just with a girl. She's in her 30s. She has kids, she's married. I mean, just rough background in terms of rape, kidnapped, just so many things. And then she has a sexual past of a lot of different people. And a lot of it was very traumatic before she was even 22 years old. And we were together, sitting together, and she said, I know in my head, biblically speaking, that God loves me, but never in my life have I felt that. All I feel is shame. I Can't feel like I can't even approach God. I know I can biblically, where I stand biblically according to the Word, but in my heart, I can't even lift my eyes to him because of all that's been done to me. But all that I've done as well. What would you say to that person? I'm sure you've had that same kind of story many times.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I'm so glad that you brought that up too, because we often feel shame not just for what we've done, but what's been done to us. So if you have a history of trauma or abuse, any form of sexual assault, you probably carry around with you, even like messages of somehow it's my fault, I deserved it, my body responded, therefore, you know, I must have liked it, there's something wrong with me. Like these are all very common conclusions that we draw. Yeah. I think, you know, thinking of your friend who shared all that with you, it's not a one time statement. It's a trajectory that is based on this. And this is what I might say. Do you know that you are not walking in integrity, not because of your sexual sin, but because you don't walk out and believe what you say you believe.

Speaker 3

So you're carrying shame.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Like if we truly say Jesus is king and he died on the cross and he rose again to forgive my sin, but we walk in such a way that doesn't reflect that we lack integrity. And it's not to add more shame, but it's a call. I think somehow the enemy gets us feeling that we actually please God by keeping self condemnation and keeping us from his presence that is not pleasing to God. Like the greatest glory we can give to him is, is to act in accordance with the freedom that he's given. And so just that kind of challenge of what would it look like to walk fully in integrity of the statement that I know Jesus has forgiven me and let me walk with you, let's find freedom together. And then the process often involves uncovering the lies that are underneath that.

Speaker 2

And that's what we did that day of kind of uncovering some of those lies. And I'm sure there'll be many more conversations, but when we live with them so long, we don't see them as lies. No, we see them as this truth. I've said it so often that now I'm believing the lie and that lie has become, in my mind, the truth. It's crazy how we just adapt to this. This is the way it is. And so to identify it, to kind of go through it, to confess the lie that I've started believing about myself even, is really an interesting thing to watch people do.

Speaker 3

And in some ways, I don't want to speak for Ann. Maybe she won't even respond to this, so I'm not going to look at her when I say it. You have carried that shame from sexual abuse and the lie that there must be something about me that is wrong that they did this.

Speaker 2

Oh, of course.

Speaker 3

You carried that for a long time. I didn't even know she was carrying it into our marriage. And she did. And, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I want you to respond, but I will add this. You know, when you brought up 2 Corinthians 5, I'm a new creature in Christ. The old is gone. When we got married, I thought that meant, oh, her past and abuse done. It won't affect anything.

Speaker 2

It's already healed.

Speaker 3

It's gone years ago. And now we're new in Christ. So the old's gone, new's come. My sexual past and background and pornography, that's all done.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

It won't have any effect today. Oh, how naive. Oh, my goodness. And again, we are new in Christ. We are redeemed. That's all true. But if you don't process that, it's going to wreak havoc in your identity, your soul, your marriage, Julie, you don't see coming.

Speaker 2

We are in seminary and we start taking some classes on how to counsel people. So, of course, when you take those classes, it's all about yourself. It's all about I start coming home. And I had told Dave, hey, I wanted you to know before we get married that I've been sexually abused. Like, oh, okay. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm fine. That was in the past. So, you know, we get back in seminary, and suddenly we've only been married two, three years.

Speaker 3

Two to three years. Yeah.

Speaker 2

I'm crying every single night. Crying, like, for the first time. Grieving, never grieving, being angry. And Dave is probably like, what is happening? Like, so, like, it affected every single area of my life. And I can recall. I can recall where I was with different people. And by the time I was seven, it had started at four. I remember thinking when it happened again that time, I thought, oh, it's me. There's something wrong with me. That's why this is happening. I'm doing something. We didn't go to church. I knew nothing about God. But that shame level, it wasn't like something happened to me. Now it became something's wrong with me. That's the level of shame that you're talking about too, with people. It affects every single area.

Speaker 1

Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, it's. Yeah. I mean, it's. And you said something, Ann. You said it feels like the truth. Yes. And I think that's an aha moment for some people when they realize the truth often feels less true than the lie.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

And that's why it requires faith.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And I then had no idea. Again, I was naive and that's on me. But I had no idea how this would affect our marriage. Not just her past and what she believed about it. But then as we were married longer and longer, my physical affection became more about sex than romance, which many wives have experienced. That it's on us in some ways. I'm not saying every husband's like me. I was clueless, but I wasn't holding her, kissing her, holding hands, non sexual touch affection like we had for many years. So she's now feeling like, oh, when Dave touches me, it's about sex, obviously connection. When I was touched as a girl, that was all it was. So here I'm married to my husband and he's so many tricks. I had no idea that I was doing that to her. And it was on me. I feel so bad.

Speaker 1

I was like, well, how would you know?

Speaker 3

I didn't know.

Speaker 1

Yeah, how would you know? And what you describe is what a lot of couples go through and they don't have words for. So I'm thankful that you all are so transparent about it. But let me ask you, like, what were the rivers going on in your hearts at that time? Like the spiritual rivers of just where God was for each of you?

Speaker 3

I mean, my first thought is what we talked about earlier. I don't think I knew Jesus well enough to trust him. So again, even as we got married, we're pretty new in Christ and we're in full time ministry, so we're daily ministering to people. But to turn this area over and trust Him, I just didn't know him well. Although I'd be standing on stages encouraging people to know Jesus, I don't think I knew him well enough yet to really surrender and say he's good, he can be trusted with this dark area of our lives. And you know, here we are talking about it. Back then, we didn't talk to anybody. It was a secret. Thinking, we'll never share this out loud with anybody, even friends, because we don't have any answers. And we're sort of stuck here. And I'm not sure we're going to ever be intimate, not just sexually, but in our marriage, because we can't get through what you call a wall. And so it had to be, like you said, it had to be full surrender. I want to know Jesus. I don't want to know about him. I want to know him in a way that I feel comfortable to say, okay, I can, and I preach that often. Like, I'm asking you to surrender. And I think a lot of you are going, I can't, because I don't know the person you're really asking me to surrender to. And I get it. Because if you don't understand, you're afraid. It's like a dad that's not kind. Like, why would I lay my life in his hands? I don't trust him. I think for me, it became, I got to know Jesus well enough to say, okay, I'm gonna trust him with my sexuality and our brokenness and then ours together. Is that what you would say?

Speaker 2

I think my river, I was all about surrender when I gave my life to Jesus. It's like, I'm all in. But it's that pocket we've been referring to, the sexuality part. It was so murky and muddy and gross. I had given it to Jesus, but I didn't realize all that was going on in my head. It was like I constantly believe lies in terms of my self talk was like, you're. How would I say it? You're unworthy, you're a failure. I mean, constantly. And it's not even I. It's your. Your. You're a failure. You're not getting anything done. Well, and on the outside, it looked like everything is awesome. I'm doing well and everything. I'm. You're a failure. You're fat, you're ugly. All, you know, all the same things over and over. I wouldn't ever tell anybody any of that. But that was my daily talk. And so the river was, I love you, Jesus, but I don't really believe what you said about me. It says, I'm a new creature and you're loving me. I can get that in my head. I just can't get it down here because I think I'm too unloved, lovable to receive that.

Speaker 3

So counsel us. How we doing?

Speaker 1

You guys are doing great now. I mean, but part of it is, you know, you go to a marriage seminar, and back then, where were you? He would define the problem as Dave, like, you want sex and she doesn't. So fix us. And you know what I've learned over the years is we've got to get to these places of why does it mean so much to you, Dave? And what's happening in your heart when it's not? When your sex life isn't what you think it should be. And what's going on with you, Ann? What's underneath all that and where's God in that? And so there's so much richness when we talk about sexuality that way. Because it's not just about sex anymore. It's about what is keeping us from the love of God. It reveals the lies we believe, the way the enemy wants to build strongholds between us and the Lord.

Speaker 2

Julie, it's so funny. I can remember back in 19, I'm trying to think what you were.

Speaker 3

People are like saying, you're saying 19.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Not 20 something.

Speaker 2

It was 1989 because we started speaking at Family Life and it was the first time I had shared my abuse at a Weekend To Remember marriage conference as a speaker.

Speaker 1

Wow.

Speaker 2

Nobody was talking about it back then. Nobody.

Speaker 3

She's a trendsetter.

Speaker 1

She is. She's courageous. She really was courageous.

Speaker 3

Nobody.

Speaker 2

Nobody.

Speaker 3

It was like.

Speaker 2

But my sister was abused for a long time. I didn't even know it for years.

Speaker 3

Older sister.

Speaker 2

And I felt like she would say she and I both got together. She passed when she was 45. But we both said we would go through it again, the abuse, if we could give people the hope of knowing that Jesus will set you free. And so I didn't know anything but to share my story of this is what happened. But Jesus is setting me free. It's not a one time thing. It takes a while, but there's freedom in being able to verbalize what happened with somebody that I can trust. And after I was done with saying that, that talk, there was a line so long of women saying, I've never shared that with anybody. And it's probably what broke your heart and what breaks God's heart of my daughters. And my people are living in total captivity and I've come to set them free. And so I think there's something beautiful that God wants to do if we'll turn our pockets inside out, you know, of allowing him to heal. Because I don't know if my surrendered prayer was that area. God, I don't know how to heal. I don't know what to do with this, but I'm giving it to you.

Speaker 1

And when you say that we don't have to be Specific and get it exactly right. When we surrender, the beauty is that when we give our life to God, he takes that and he's like, okay, I'm going to take you on this journey. And I'm so thankful that God doesn't show us everything that's unsurrendered in a moment, like we undone. But as you're sharing, like he led you, like there were seasons of. Now it's time to tell the story. Now it's time to say these things out loud that you've been living with and the enemy has been tormenting you. Now it's time to seek my truth on this. You're right.

Speaker 2

It's steps. It kind of goes through baby steps.

Speaker 1

It does. He really does.

Speaker 2

And where does he go? Right through the wound.

Speaker 1

That's right.

Speaker 2

Right through the wound of the heart.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I remember two years later, I didn't even think about timeline, but we just started our church in 1990. I'm one of the founders. And then we had a weekend service in a midweek, and it was at a midweek 91, so we're maybe not even a year old yet. And I decided I didn't tell my co founder, I'm going to share my struggle with porn again. This is before digital.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

This is magazines type deal. And so I shared a bit of it to say this is where I've been and I want to help men get to freedom through this. So. And I'll never forget, I. Before I stepped off the stage, my co founder, Steve was at the bottom of the steps. And I'm like, oh, boy, did I just violate something we'd never talked about? I went somewhere. Is he going to be like, dude, what are you. What? You know, you can't share that kind of stuff. You're a leader here. And I remember I stepped on the bottom step and he looked at me and he goes, you just changed the future of this community for good. I go, what? He goes, this will no longer be a community where people hide. If one of their leaders isn't going to hide, I think people are going to be feel like they can be heard and they can go to Jesus like you have. And I'm not kidding. The next month, every guy called me wanted to meet and they come in one by one and they'd sit there, you know, they'd poke around. I go, okay, I know you're struggling with porn. Yeah, yeah. Can I talk to you? Because you said you were. I'll never forget this one guy. He was the drummer in Our band. I play guitar in the band. And Bruce comes in. This is like three weeks later. And he just beating around the bush. And finally I go, bruce, we're buds, dude. I know you're here. You're struggling with porn. He goes, no, not at all. I go, come on, man. You don't have to lie. I've had 50 guys say they're struggling for. I know it. We can talk about it. Let's go. He goes, no, actually, I'm not at all. Not at all. I'm not lying, dude. I just gave my life to Christ. And I'm like, can you help me grow? And I'm like, oh, thank you. It was like, finally.

Speaker 1

That's so funny.

Speaker 3

But I thought, you know, when she said all these women lined up, I had the same thing in this area. Like, all these men lined up, and they were like, okay, can this be a safe place not just to share my struggle, but to get on a journey to freedom?

Speaker 1

Right, right.

Speaker 3

Is that what the church is supposed to be in the Christian community? And that's what you're about?

Speaker 1

Yeah. Both of your stories are so powerful, and what they represent is, you cannot heal in hiding. You will never find freedom in hiding. And if it's like, oh, no, it's me and God, like, God didn't design us to heal that way. There's something powerful that happens when you step out into the light and you say the words. And that's what I mean when you both spoke that out loud, like, the enemy lost. Now, there was a process then of walking that out.

Speaker 3

Right, Right.

Speaker 1

But that is, like, the first step. And the other thing I want to say is, Ann, you shared a story of sexual trauma and abuse. Dave, you have pornography struggle. The opposite is also true where women are struggling with pornography and they feel like, well, it's okay for guys to struggle, but where do I go as a woman? And let me just tell you, particularly in this younger generation, about 50% of women are struggling with pornography.

Speaker 3

50%?

Speaker 1

About. Yeah. In the generation of, like, teenager to 35, it's a pretty significant struggle. And then for men, about maybe one out of every five men have been sexually abused. So that's 20%. And even with the Me Too movement, women felt more free to say, hey, I've experienced this. But there's a lot of shame in men who have been sexually abused. So it's not just always the stereotypical women struggle with this or men with this.

Speaker 3

Definitely.

Speaker 1

Yeah. But when communities can be those safe places to say, say, this is a Secret thing I don't know how to bring before the Lord. You know, hey, this is a place to bring it. That's where we start to see real transformation and healing.

Speaker 3

I mean, if somebody's listening right now, it's that woman or that. That man, husband, wife, whatever, a single person, whoever's listening or watching. Hope you're watching. What would you say to them if they're like, I have this secret in the dark?

Speaker 2

Yeah, they haven't confessed it to anyone.

Speaker 3

You just said, when it's in the dark, the dark winds. When it comes in the light, healing starts. And by the way, that's James 5. Confess your sins to one another, that you may be forgiven. No, healed. The forgiveness is vertical, but the healing is horizontal. And they're thinking, I've never told anybody, and I don't think I should. What would you say?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I would just say, take that one step. Go to somebody you trust, whether it's a good friend, somebody who's discipling you, a counselor, and say it out loud. And I just interviewed somebody from my podcast who had this kind of story.

Speaker 3

Java with Julie. Java with Julie. Go.

Speaker 1

She made this statement. She said, 20 seconds of profound courage changed the course of my life.

Speaker 2

Ooh, that's Good. It is 20 seconds.

Speaker 3

It's a courageous, really courageous step. It is 20 seconds.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And you don't have to do it perfectly. Just get it out, and then God will show you the next steps after that.

Speaker 2

I envision, like, a chain being broken when you do that. Like, to confess it out loud, because Satan loves everything in the dark.

Speaker 3

Have you read anything about some of the college revivals happening?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Do you know how they start?

Speaker 1

No.

Speaker 3

I watched an interview with Jenny Allen, and we've had both Jenny and JP Book glued on, and she said, you know, we didn't really have much of a plan. Besides, we were asked to come speak. And I may be getting somewhere wrong, but it tended to be I was on stage, and I felt like I need to tell them to tell their darkest secret to somebody. Right now she goes, the floodgates open. People are turning to each other, saying something out loud they've never said anybody. And God started meeting people, and people were on stage like, I want to get baptized. And they were like, there's a pond over there. The first one, I think, was Texan A and M or something.

Speaker 2

It was in the dark.

Speaker 3

I started jumping in, and Ohio state just baptized 2,000 people. And they all say the same thing. The thing that seems to unlock something is the secret that I've been holding. I'm gonna tell somebody. So it's just what you just said.

Speaker 2

Let me just say this, too. Like, maybe you're listening, and maybe you're a woman that's struggling with pornography or struggling in any area or a man. Now I feel like, should I tell my spouse? Because now my secret burden is gonna be their burden, and it's just gonna create so much strife and mistrust and all kinds of chaos. Is it worth it?

Speaker 1

Yes. Yes, it is. But I'm going to qualify that. They often should not be the first person you tell.

Speaker 3

Tell somebody else first. Yeah, like a brother to a brother.

Speaker 1

And a sister to a sister or a counselor. And the reason why is because when you tell your spouse and then the first person you tell, it's often cathartic, like, oh, I got that off my chest. And now your spouse is left holding that. But when you've already told somebody else and started the healing journey, you can go to your spouse and clearly say, I know this is our burden together. I know this is breaking your heart. But I also want you to know that I'm already taking steps towards what it looks like to pursue wholeness, and then you can pursue wholeness together. But if you're just viewing it as, I've got to confess, this is cathartic. I can get this off my chest and move on and not get help. You really are leaving your spouse feeling like they're holding something very heavy alone.

Speaker 2

And so get a plan in action. You're saying, though, and your plan can.

Speaker 1

Be as simple as, I confess to my brother or sister in Christ, I have an appointment with a counselor, or I'm getting in a group to address this, or I found a counselor for us to go see together. So that, yeah, it's going to blow things up. Often it does. And there's a long road to recovery. But intimacy means no secrets. And same with the Lord. If we keep things compartmentalized. And I'll give all of who I am except for this peace, we're not going to have intimacy. And the same thing is true in marriage.

Speaker 3

And free. I mean, and I'm just thinking, 40 years ago now, 35 years ago, the first person I told about my porn struggle, we did it wrong. I told Ann, and I felt just what you said of like. I just almost, like, vomited it out. I finally said it. I'm free now. I can move on. I look over and she's just, yeah, we wrote about this in Vertical Marriage, a couple chapters on that very thing. But she was crushed and then angry and it.

Speaker 2

And then I didn't trust you.

Speaker 3

And I hadn't told a man yet. I was gonna, but I thought, oh, I should tell her first. She's my soulmate, she's my partner. And in some ways that's somewhat true, but I didn't realize I was just really doing that for me. It wasn't for her. I wanted freedom. I went, okay, we're good, right? And she's like, I just. Now you just wait a wait, I gotta carry this now. I'm like, yeah, I don't have it anymore. Here you go.

Speaker 2

But I think if it was a one time thing, it'd be different. And you've dealt with this on your podcast, Julie. So we can point people toward. But when it continues, it's usually not an overnight fix. Like, oh, I told her now I'm great, I'm not gonna be tempted or look again. When it became like, okay, now this is my pattern. I'm hearing this often. I don't even know what to do. And by the time he tells me for the fourth time, like, well, do.

Speaker 3

We have to keep talking about me? Let's move on to another husband.

Speaker 2

But I think in your podcast you deal with if a spouse is really struggling, how to get help. Because they shouldn't be in it alone.

Speaker 1

No, no. Yeah. And the spouse needs help for their own journey of processing the trauma of that and what's true. And how do I know if I trust and all the insecurities that come with that.

Speaker 3

I mean, what do you say to. Because when you were talking earlier about surrender. I know we got two more identity traps.

Speaker 2

I know.

Speaker 1

I was gonna say chapter two.

Speaker 3

I'm gonna get there. But I had this thought earlier. So you're surrendering your sexuality, yet you keep blowing it, whatever it is. I surrendered this. But here I am again and again. Like you said earlier, it could be three months. I haven't sinned in three months in this area, could be six months. But here I am again. I thought I surrendered. I didn't. Or did I do I re. Surrender, you know, that kind of thing? Because I think that's the journey for a lot of people, and especially in marriages, like Ann said. Seriously, you're going to confess again? How many times do I have to hear this confession to believe that you really surrendered it?

Speaker 1

Yeah, boy, good question.

Speaker 3

There's 18 questions in that.

Speaker 2

I was pointing people to the job of Julie. But you put her on the spot.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, let me just Briefly address that in terms of our relation with God. I have that experience all the time, Dave.

Speaker 3

In other areas.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, like, for me, pride is a huge battle. I mean, huge.

Speaker 2

Me, too, Julia. This is my year of killing the pride.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And so I surrender it. I feel like I'm in a place of surrender, and then a few weeks later, it pops up again.

Speaker 3

I mean, what's pride look like for you?

Speaker 1

Now we're gonna get my stuff.

Speaker 3

You don't seem like a very prideful person.

Speaker 2

Let's put the camera on, Julie.

Speaker 3

Counselors never get counsel. That's the book you two should write together. You just said you both struggle. There you go.

Speaker 1

The Pride girls. Yeah. I mean, we could go there. That's a whole nother conversation, though.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Okay. But regardless of what it is, some people struggle with being honest. And so we tell one lie. Like, lord, I surrender this. Does that mean you're never going to lie again? It's going to be an ongoing battle. And through the power of the Holy Spirit and the process of surrender, it becomes less a battle. You become more aware of it. You know how to guard yourself against it. And sexuality, particularly when you're talking about some of the addictive elements of sexuality and pornography, it's a process. And so the fact that you continue to struggle or even at times fall back into it, doesn't mean that you haven't surrendered, because surrender is ongoing.

Speaker 3

Yeah. But let me ask this. I gotta press in one more. Do you think all sins are the same, or do you think there's something uniquely different about sexual sin compared to other sins? And I think even the New Testament would tell you, you know, when you sin sexually, you sin against your own body. So there seems to be, again, I've thought about this theologically many times. Like, there seems to be a deeper issue with sexuality, sin than pride, or, you know, not telling the truth every day. Again, I'm not saying all sins are.

Speaker 1

First of all, as you know, as a pastor, all sins in terms of us violating the righteousness of God are equally heinous. And when you look at what Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount, like, he took the worst of sin. Like, it says, don't murder your brother. But if you hate your brother, you call him a fool. Like, that's like murder. And so Jesus is sort of leveling the playing field in terms of our understanding of judging sin. And then it's interesting, when you look at the seven things that God hates in Proverbs, you probably know them because you're a pastor, but none of them are sexual. You're right, but a few of them are related to pride. But we have to look at 1 Corinthians 6 and say there's something profound there. When Paul says, when you sin sexually, you sin against your own body. Our sexuality is so integrated into everything of who we are, even the cells of our body and our brain wiring, that there is often greater consequence with our sexual sin.

Speaker 2

That's a good way to say it.

Speaker 1

That hurts other people, but also hurts us. Like people who've looked at pornography over the years. You can be fully redeemed, forgiven, cleansed, surrender that. But you will probably continue to battle those images popping up when you don't want them anymore. And so the way we're wired is that our sexuality can be a profound blessing, or when it's used against us in the term of abuse and assault, or when we choose to sin sexually and there's echoes of it that we continue to walk with. So that's how I would answer that. But you were the pastor, Dave.

Speaker 3

No, I mean, that's one debated over centuries, over decades. Like, there does seem to be even. Have you ever heard this term soul ties?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Like if you have sex with somebody outside of your marriage, before, after, whenever, your soul is sort of tied to them, because sex is soulish in nature. It's not just physical. It's not just emotional, spiritual. There's a soul connection at the deepest level. Have you ever heard that? And what do you think?

Speaker 1

I've heard of it.

Speaker 3

I'm sure you have.

Speaker 1

I don't know if I'm a big fan of that term. I think that's sort of New Agey. But we do know biologically and neurologically that there is dopamine released and oxytocin that bond you to someone. And so I think there are things to work through in terms of confession and letting go, and it's a profound experience. There's no such thing as casual sex.

Speaker 3

Boom. What do you mean?

Speaker 1

I just mean.

Speaker 3

I mean. I know what you mean, but I want people to hear that because so much of our culture says, oh, casual sex, no big deal.

Speaker 2

It's just the body.

Speaker 1

It's never just the body. You know, it always has profound impact on us, even at a neurological level. So I think what Scripture is telling us is take it very seriously and.

Speaker 2

Be protective, because it really does affect us. Okay, we've hit two.

Speaker 3

Yeah, we have a lot more to come. Okay. Talk about, is it performance?

Speaker 1

It's performance. What's that Mean, yeah, here we get to go at another identity level here. But with performance, I'm really more talking about the opposite of shame, which is sort of the Pharisaical, like, I've done it right. I can earn God's favor by behaving sexually, by saying no to sin. Like, I can earn God's love. And I think a lot of people who grew up in a Christian home, like this is one that I really identify with, was learning that culture enter into that. Yes, very much so. Yeah. And that I'm a better person because I didn't sin sexually. I'm a virgin. I saved sex for marriage.

Speaker 2

And then a little another piece comes in, which is called Pride.

Speaker 1

There you go.

Speaker 2

I know.

Speaker 1

We knew we'd hit on Pride, right? And I think it's purity culture in there for sure. But also you see this playing out. For example, you have a husband and wife. One of them has a sexual past, the other one doesn't. And one of them feels self righteous and even like, why did you bring this into our marriage? I didn't bring anything into our marriage. You see that. But also in church culture, I think the way the church talks about, for example, LGBT communities or even people who are prostitutes or sex workers, it's almost like they're the untouchables. Like, we do it right and we're good and righteous and they're unrighteous. And, you know, God has really confronted me in my heart as I teach on this, you know, bringing up the story that he told about the Pharisee and the tax collector coming to the temple and how the Pharisee prayed, you know, oh, God, I thank youk that I'm not like other people. You know, I fast two times a week or whatever. And I'm putting that in modern day language of God. I'm so thankful that I'm not like these other people. I've been married to my spouse for 30 years. I've kept sex in marriage. I don't struggle with pornography. And we even thank God, like the Pharisee thanks God. I thank you that I am not like this other person.

Speaker 2

It even reminds me of the prodigal son and the older brother. I've done everything right.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So there's this. There's always two people in Jesus stories. There's the one who thinks that they have to earn God's love and they've earned it through behavior. And there's a person who also thinks they have to earn God's love, but know that they failed. And Jesus always Says the one who's on their face. Confessing and repenting is closer to the kingdom of God. And so the performance trap is, if I don't do these things, then I'm acceptable to God, and he sees me in a better light than he sees the quote, unquote, sinners. And so I think this has to be a real shift in individual hearts. It's part of the surrender process, but also corporately, as a church, a posture of humility, of recognizing our own brokenness, how far away we are from God's holiness and how dependent we are on him, which really gives us a different posture and grace and compassion when we talk about these issues in relationships or even as we engage in culture.

Speaker 2

Julie I remember in my 20s, we came on staff with crew, and I remember Bill Bright speaking, and he would do this often where somebody had fallen in sin, a well known name. And every time that would happen, I thought, oh, Bill's gonna get in here and he's gonna condemn this guy or warn us. And every single time he said he would say, apart from God's grace, that would be me. Apart from God's grace, I could fall tomorrow. And I'm like, no, you wouldn't, Bill, come on. Oh, you wouldn't. We know you. But I think he really believed it, and I think it's true for all of us. Apart from his grace, that could be me as the prostitute on the street. And it gives you a different eye for them and a different compassion instead of that judgmental piece that man. We so easily throw that out. Yeah.

Speaker 1

And one of the things that I've learned through years and years of this ministry is the stories behind these labels. Like, when you talk to individuals, you talk to the person who's transitioning gender, you talk to the person who has been a prostitute, you hear this story of where they came from, and it becomes very real of the brokenness that led there and the grace of God, that I didn't experience the kinds of things that they experienced, but also knowing that my heart is just as wicked as anybody's heart.

Speaker 2

Me too.

Speaker 1

So that's an identity trap with sexuality that we often don't recognize, but I think really flavors even how we interact with our kids or the next generation or just our neighbors.

Speaker 3

Do you think there's a cause? You do this every day. I mean, you've been living in this world thinking about these kind of this sexual topic, which a lot of us don't spend a lot of time in this area. Do you think when there's A dysfunction sexually, whether it's a struggle that they can't win or transition genders, any of those areas. Do you think I'll put a percentage on it? Do you think 100% of the time there's something broken in there? If you dig in, you'll go, oh, yeah. Like you just said. I pointed to. Is it always.

Speaker 1

Well, it always is, and it's with us, too, even if you don't. Oh, yeah. I often make this statement, we are all sexually broken. All.

Speaker 3

Come on.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Not most all.

Speaker 2

Except for Jesus. That would be it.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Jeez.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, we all have.

Speaker 2

I don't know if that's depressing or encouraging.

Speaker 1

It's probably both.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1

But it's. It's leveling in that. Have you believed lies about sex? Have you been wounded? Have you acted out sexually or had immoral sexual thoughts? Have you ever objectified people sexually or been objectified? It's like, okay, all. We're all there.

Speaker 2

When we were in seminary, it was just the wives. This was gonna be a really hard class for me because they were bringing in a man that was in prison for abusing some little girls. And so he has been sentenced for so many years, and they were allowing him to come to speak to our class. So I was just starting to deal with my own stuff. So I'm like, this is going to be so triggering for me. And it happened just as you said, Julie. We started asking him questions about his life growing up, and the abuse that he endured sexually was so horrific that I sat in the class and just cried. And I did think, like, if we don't deal with our past sexual trauma, it will definitely deal with us along the way somewhere. But it gave me compassion of, like, wow. There's always a story behind the story.

Speaker 1

There is.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Can you win sexually without dealing with the stuff?

Speaker 1

No.

Speaker 3

In the past.

Speaker 1

No. Because you're not surrendered.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I was at a conference just recently, and one of the guys on stage just told this porn story. I don't know the guy just, boom. He's actually in the band and blah, blah, blah. And his marriage and how it affected him, and he was sort of addicted. And the conclusion was, one day in the car, I realized, I'm gonna lose everything. And I repented and told, God, I'm gonna give you. I'm gonna surrender my sexuality. And we're good now. And if I'd known the guy, I would have gone up and go, are you really good? Did you ever deal with the root of it? There's a root, there's something there. And maybe he did, maybe he just didn't add that to the story. But I remember I had this skeptical thought, like, if you didn't get to the root, you are controlling your behavior a little better. But eventually that head's gonna raise up and you're gonna find yourself falling again. Unless. Am I right? You gotta get to underneath what's going on.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Speaker 3

Finally, I'm right.

Speaker 2

Good job, honor.

Speaker 3

That's right.

Speaker 1

And I think that's the danger, honestly, of most of the testimonies that we hear about sexuality are 20 minutes. And it makes it sound like I confessed my affair. We went to counseling. We're good. When you hear the longer versions of these stories, they are so messy and God's in the mess, but it is not linear. It's not like, oh, I confessed. And it was all great. Since then, it was, wow, we had to trudge through some really hard things.

Speaker 2

That's reassuring, I think, for listeners, for us to hear. I know with my sexual abuse, I felt like after six years I'd get triggered by something else. And that meant to me like, oh, there's something else that God wants to heal.

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 2

And like, really, Lord, we're not done yet. But he's like, no, I love you so much. I'm not going to do it all at once. I need to take bits at a time. That's what it felt like. But it was so gracious of him. I would have liked to have been. Don't we all want it to be overnight, a healing and a fix? And I'm not saying God can't do that, but generally speaking, it takes a while.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I remember asking somebody who had full on sexual addiction and this long recovery process who now is in ministry, like, why do you think God takes so long? And he talked about the intimacy that's formed on that journey. God could just zap you and the memories are gone, the addiction's gone. But the process of recovery means inviting him into all those memories and all that temptation and all the wounds. And that's where intimacy is formed. So I can't tell you how many people you ask for stories. I can't tell you how many people have said to me, I would never want to go back and repeat what happened. But I'm also so thankful it did because I wouldn't know God the way I know him.

Speaker 2

Yes. Out of our desperation and need.

Speaker 3

And yet we want to know God like that without the, without the pain, people come up to us sometimes. We want your marriage like, okay, you don't want the trauma that got us here. I want to ask one last thing about performance. I still got that in my mind. Why is it at least my awareness of watching us as Christians that we highlight our sexual purity that we're winning in this area to such a level that we're performing? Like you said earlier, we're here and we judge others that aren't. Why do we do that with this area? Because we could be winning sexually, surrendered sexually, and yet be lying, be mean to people, all these other things and think we're good. We didn't even talk about the other stuff, even when we sat down for pre rental counseling. You having sex? No. Okay, good. We didn't say, hey, are you cheating on your taxes? Are you a man of your word? We didn't even ask that. You know, it's like, is your promise, is it good but you're not having sex? Okay, we're good. You know what I'm saying? We highlight it to such the important. And again, it is important. But have we done that? Have we made it the ultimate?

Speaker 1

I think we have.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I really do. Yeah. And it's a good question. It's a good observation.

Speaker 3

See, I got another good question.

Speaker 1

Huh?

Speaker 3

Yeah. There you go. Ding, ding. I'm winning today.

Speaker 1

You are winning, buddy. But I think we see it as a pass fail test.

Speaker 2

Oh, that's it.

Speaker 1

So we don't see it as a progression of surrender or discipleship. We only look at behavior. Because nobody asks you about your attitude towards your spouse with sex or about how you think about your sexuality. It's all, did you do this? Did you not do this? And so it's become kind of a behavior litmus test of even with parents. Did I pass as a parent or fail based on how my kids are behaving? Yes.

Speaker 2

Julie, I am so impressed with how smart you are. Like, you know this area, honestly, isn't it crazy?

Speaker 3

She takes all my dumb questions and she turns them to something good.

Speaker 1

No, your questions are great. They are good questions. And I've been studying this for 13 years. So if you study anything for 13 years, you learn. But honestly, really, if God calls you to something, he gives you what you need. So I just am dependent on him to.

Speaker 2

It's really good.

Speaker 1

Give me wisdom. Not just, not for me, but for Christians who are so, oh, what a gift.

Speaker 3

You are a gift.

Speaker 2

So we've only hit our three out.

Speaker 3

Of the four we have relationship left.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

What's that mean?

Speaker 1

Relationship is the identity lie that I am only somebody if somebody loves me. And a lot of this, I think, even can play off of our attachment wounds growing up where, let's say you didn't have a good relationship with your dad and as a woman, then you believe I need to have a man who affirms me or who loves me or, you know, they're all different iterations of this. But it is the lie that I become valuable because somebody notices me, somebody loves me, somebody wants to spend their life with me. And romance, marriage, like, that's all a gift. But it was never intended to be who we are and to complete us.

Speaker 2

I wonder what percentage of marriages fall into that.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Into what?

Speaker 2

This whole relationship trap of thinking I'm gonna find this through them. Yeah, kind of. It will heal the wound of this past.

Speaker 1

And singles.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

You know, like, even going through this book with the pilot study, like, one woman who is married talked about the pressure that she felt to get plastic surgery because I need my husband to want me and to see me as beautiful. Like, I don't know who I am if I don't have that. But with singles, like, the prospect of being single for another year and having people ask you, are you dating somebody? Have you found someone? Like, every time you say no, it's like, no one's chosen me. So this goes deep for a lot of people and can really be a place where, if God is good, he'd bring me someone because then I can be somebody. Instead of seeing marriage as the gift that it is on top of the completion of who we are in Christ.

Speaker 2

Boy, that's huge.

Speaker 1

Wow, Julie.

Speaker 3

What?

Speaker 2

Haven't we hit that?

Speaker 3

You're like, that was gonna be my next question. I wanna ask it. So you say, hey, that was a good question. Like, is there something.

Speaker 2

Welcome to my life.

Speaker 3

Is there something we haven't covered?

Speaker 1

There's a lot I don't know.

Speaker 3

Seriously.

Speaker 1

I mean, that is only two chapters of the book.

Speaker 3

That is amazing. We have talked I don't know how long, but a long time, and we've only covered two out of what, nine chapters? 10 chapters, 11.

Speaker 1

Remember? How many are there? Eight. I think it's eight chapters.

Speaker 2

It's eight.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

Give us one we should hit.

Speaker 2

That's gonna make people buy this book. It should be in every person's library. So Julie's book is called Surrendered Sexuality. And I've just said this before, but I'm gonna say it again. Every person should have this in their library because it's a Great resource that every single person needs, I think.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah. Wherever you get your books, go get a bunch. Don't just get one. Because this is the kind of book that you don't just read for yourself. I think parents need it. Man, what a great thing for a church.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I hope it doesn't stay in people's libraries.

Speaker 2

Yeah, they need it in their library, but you should be going through it. I'm thinking this would be a great book to go through with women for me, like, to go through. I'm thinking of some women in my mind right now to go through. Talk about deep conversations.

Speaker 1

That's really why I wrote it, because I wanted people to have a tool to go through in community or in mentoring. Discipling of. What does it step by step, look like to surrender this piece of my life to Jesus?

Speaker 3

That's my next question. I have a question that we're going to save for the monthly donors, monthly partners. Yeah, this is going to be. If you're like, I want to know what this question is. You just brought it up. I'm going to teach you. It has something to do with sexual discipleship. Become a monthly partner. Just go to familylifetoday.com, hit the Donate button, start giving, and you can hear the rest of this conversation.

Speaker 2

Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button, and we'd.

Speaker 3

Like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this word like.

Speaker 2

And subscribe. Subscribe.

Speaker 3

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There he goes.