FamilyLife Today®

Ike Todd: God made a woman to be a helper. Her job is to help this man be the priest he is supposed to be. He cannot be what he is supposed to be without her. Therefore, he must love her and cherish her.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I’m Dave Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

It is just me today. There is no Ann Wilson sitting beside me, so it’s not going to be as pretty in the studio, but it’s going to be a great day. We’re going to talk about what it looks like to love our wives as Christ loved the church.

We’ve got Ike Todd back and Rechab Gray. These are the husbands of the wives you heard my wife Ann talking to about submission and marriage. Let me start here. I don’t want to start with the word submission because that’s an inflammatory word, probably more for women than men. As we think about our roles as husbands, and I know we’re both dads here, but today is about the role we’ve been called to as a husband. What are the words that come to your mind first when you think, "I want to be a godly husband"? What thoughts or words or concepts drive you to be the man God wants you to be as a husband in your home?

Ike Todd: For me, the word that came to mind was leader. I just want to be a good leader. I want to rule with righteousness and justice. But it was a sermon that you preached that changed my desire. I want to love rather than lead.

I think it was probably the Genesis series. You probably said those exact words. We talk often about leading when we should be talking about loving. It’s love your wives, not lead your wives. Something about that just resonated with me because when I think of leadership, love is kind of secondary. It’s like being a loving leader. But no, love will do the leading. That was important for me. That was huge for me. That’s what I think about. I just want to be a loving husband.

Rechab Gray: I have a story, too. This was when we were in Philly and I was doing those seminary intensives, so I would have to drive down for a week to DC and was going to the RTS campus in Virginia. It was just a hectic time. I had just gotten in ministry some time before that. We were just missing each other. It wasn’t like a bad time or anything; we were just missing each other.

We called our mentors, Larry Schmidt and his wife Harriet. Shout out to them in Philly. They sat us down at the table and, as he lovingly did, he was grilling me on why we were missing each other. But Harriet looked at my wife and asked her a question I will never forget for the rest of my life. She turned to Ephesians 5. She said, "I know Rechab loves you, but there is a part of that passage that says they cherish and nourish their wives." She asked my wife in front of me, "But do you feel cherished and nourished?"

She just began to weep. It was like she didn’t want to say no, but through tears, she said no. Even now, it gets me every time. When I think of being a husband, I think of cherishing my wife and nourishing her. Literally the imagery that comes to my mind is like a flower. It is my job to see that flower blossom and bloom to the glory it was meant to be. That requires leadership. That is my job to water her with the word and to really cherish her and nourish her to a point where the fullness of who God made her to be blossoms like a flower. Cherish is always my barometer.

Dave Wilson: Do you think she’d answer that question differently today?

Rechab Gray: I think so. I hope so. We’d have to ask her. That would be interesting, for sure.

Dave Wilson: That is a powerful image. Whenever I’ve taught on this "love your wives as Christ loved the church" in Ephesians 5, I think as men, and maybe even our culture, love has lost its meaning because we use the word for everything. I love Jesus, I love the San Francisco 49ers, I love ice cream, I love tacos. It just doesn’t carry a lot of weight.

But cherish—I remember when I was thinking about how to teach this and understand it, I went and looked up the definition. Cherish is beloved. It’s related to costly, which means things that you cherish, you spend money on. You spend a lot of money on. When I read that and you talk about it and you study it and you celebrate it, I thought guys, at least me, cherish stuff.

I parked my car when I had a nice car and didn't want anybody to ding it with their doors. I have guitars in my house. I could show you a picture of this room where they hang on the wall. It’s our studio. I’ve got these really nice guitars hanging there. Guess what else is in that room? A humidifier because the wood needs to be humidified. In Michigan in the winter, it gets really dry. I can tell you right now on my phone what the humidity is in that room because I cherish my guitars. If you were to pick one up, I’d be like, "Hold on, are you wearing a belt? You're going to scratch my guitar."

I thought—and Ann might have shared this with your wives, I don’t know—but she said it from the stage before. She goes, "There was a night where I crawled into bed with Dave, and it was in the winter in Michigan, and it’s so dry in our house that I’m getting nosebleeds." She turned to me and said, "Man, I wish I was one of your guitars." In other words, there was a humidifier in our bedroom that was empty because the guitars in the other room, I could tell you on my phone what it is.

That is what Paul was saying. When you cherish and nourish, they come to life and they bloom. Do you think your wives feel that?

Rechab Gray: It’s funny, I’ll even answer this for Ike because they’ve been married less time than us. We are at 16 years at the time of this recording.

Ike Todd: We are going on 10.

Rechab Gray: I actually did their premarital before they got married, which is really crazy. But I can genuinely say within three years of their marriage, I was looking to him as a model for me for how to love my wife better. Part of that I think is the beauty even of the church. You look at new believers and they are so on fire for Jesus. It reminds you not of what you used to be, but of what you should be more of going forward. First love, absolutely. Them in a younger season in their marriage, it definitely was a constant challenge of do I still not just love, but like Britney like this? Cherish her like this? Make sure she knows she’s liked and I’m still going after you with everything?

Ike Todd: Do you feel like it’s still that way? When we talk about cherish, it’s tough for me because, again, my mind goes to leadership. I naturally focus on that and then some of the love takes a backseat. But I do think my wife would talk about her flourishing with me, and she’ll have specific reasons. I’ve heard her talk about these things before. But for me, I know how much I’m failing and how much I want to do more and how much she deserves. So even when I hear her talk about it, it’s like, yeah, that’s cool, but I really should be cherishing her much more.

Ann Wilson: In the fast pace of life, sometimes the best gift you can give your marriage is time. Time to slow down, reflect, and reconnect.

Dave Wilson: FamilyLife’s Weekend to Remember gives you just that: dedicated time away to invest in your relationship with your spouse and with God. I know you guys are thinking what I’m thinking. Yeah, but it costs a whole bunch of money. It does cost some money, but guess what, guys and gals? It’s half-price right now through January 26. You can get two registrations for the price of one. That’s 50% off all of our getaways, making it easier than ever to give your marriage the gift of time.

Ann Wilson: So just head to FamilyLifeToday.com and register today.

Dave Wilson: Let’s talk about this leadership thing because you started there. FamilyLife’s Weekend to Remember, we have a different manual today than when Ann and I first started teaching. But in the first manual, it was still the same concept. When we would split up on Sunday morning with just the men, and then Ann would talk to the women about this cherishing and loving your wives, we would always say this: we are called to lead like a servant and love like a savior. That was the phrase that was in our manual. What do you think it looks like to lead like a servant? Or maybe it doesn’t look that way. How do you guys look at this? Because the submission side of them following us has a lot to do with how we lead. How do you lead well?

Ike Todd: That’s what I’m trying to figure out. Do you just do whatever she tells you to do? That’s not called leadership. That’s one of my personal struggles because I think I’m naturally a more strong leader than most people. But she softens me and sometimes it gets difficult for me to discern when I’m supposed to "put my foot down" or is this a time where I’m supposed to be a lot softer. Sometimes I feel like I’m a little too soft. I look back on decisions I should have made that would have pushed her and challenged her, but would have been right and good for her development and her love for Christ. Those are the things that I’m struggling with when it comes to leadership because I’m naturally a little heavy-handed.

Rechab Gray: He’s telling the truth. He’s way more of a "put your foot down" leader. Charge ahead. We were talking before this about leadership qualities and he definitely has more of that "move us forward" type of thing. I can absolutely say when it comes to Arie, so much of that is softer. I think that’s a really good balance for his personality.

I actually feel the opposite. I feel like I could be more passive at times in my natural leadership. But because of my love for Britney, I have more of a "no, we’ve got to go here." A lot of that, I will genuinely say, is one of the things that I learned so much from the men who led me. Talk to God about them before you talk to them about themselves.

What that does is it helps me to wring out how much of my so-called leading her is for the sake of my own kingdom and how much of my leading her is for the sake of her flourishing. One of the things I’m always asking myself is, at the end of this decision, am I going to see her holy or am I going to see her happy? If I shoot for her holiness, I know happiness will follow. But if I’m only shooting for her happiness, then holiness might not be there and the happiness will quickly wear off. Then I’ll have to seek another thrill to get her happy again. Keeping holiness in front of us has been a huge part of the blessing of our relationship. It’s not always fun in those moments, but it also helps her to see this isn’t for Rechab’s sake, this is really for the benefit of us, but also her flourishing and blossoming.

Dave Wilson: Have there been times you did that poorly?

Rechab Gray: For at least the first four or five years. There was so much of my kingdom. You know you can mask it with—especially if you know the Bible pretty well—you can mask anything. A lot of it was like, "Hey, I think it’s really important that you support me in going out with the fellows so that I can grow in my walk with the Lord." Really that was just me trying to selfishly get some time out. It had nothing really to do with the kingdom of God. It had nothing to do with me growing in the faith. I just wanted to get my own time.

I didn’t want to check that part of my heart, so I can mask it in community and a lot of different things. I did a lot of that, putting pressure on her to support me in something like that in biblical language. I’ve had to repent so much of that. Be careful. Really ask the Lord the harder questions of your heart in anything you're calling your wife to because we can say all day long this is for the sake of the kingdom, but a lot of times it’s just for our own benefit.

Ike Todd: Along those lines with me, it’s a little different because I’m a vision guy and I’m a conviction-based guy. If I believe we’re supposed to go this way, I believe it. I’ve done all the work. I’ve prayed about it, I’ve thought through it, I’ve read all the scripture about it. I believe this. But when it’s time for me to actually lead us this way, she softens me and I’m like, "How do I actually lead us this way when I know this won’t make her happy?"

That’s my issue. It kills me. I get it wrong a lot because I want to see her happy. When I get it wrong, it looks probably like temporary happiness and then something comes back to bite us. It can be a financial struggle or we notice just a little less of the spirit moving. We’re not as focused and intentional about seeking the Lord. When I start to see those things, I can a lot of times say it’s because of that decision. We weren’t supposed to go there or do this, or we should have done the opposite. And yeah, it kills me.

Dave Wilson: When you're leading in that way, are your wives' voices loud? Are they like, "Hey, I disagree, I don’t think you're right"? Or do they keep it quiet?

Rechab Gray: It’s loud but quiet, though. My wife, all she has to say to me is like, "And this is what the Lord is saying?" That question alone will check me. Wait, did I pray about this? Did I seek the Lord on this? And then there are some times keeping stuff copacetic, like just making sure that stuff is moving smoothly, yeah, I’ll make the soft decision too. But I did seek the Lord and I know this isn’t that decision. She can even feel like I feel like you're just trying to appease me rather than actually please the Lord. It can come out that quick and that is a check to my gut because I think that I’m going to make her happier in this and she’s so after holiness that she’s like, "Don’t do that for me. I don’t want that in my life." For Britney, it literally is usually one statement: "So you prayed? I’m excited." But then if I didn’t pray, "Whoa, whoa, don’t be too excited." It’s a literal check to my gut. It’s usually mad quiet, but super loud. Louder because it’s so quiet.

Ike Todd: She used this in the beginning of our marriage. She’s like an "out-go kicking and screaming" a lot of times. If it’s a good time, she’s all for it. She loves that. And then if something comes back and bites us or I get the courage to tell her we should have done this, she’s like, "Why didn't you just say that? I’m going to follow you. That’s non-negotiable. I’m going to follow you. I let you know that from the beginning. That’s not a problem." I’m like, "Why did I think it was a problem?" It’s not a problem with her. She wants to follow me. But sometimes I just chicken out. I wanted you to have a good time. You said you wanted to go to Disney or you wanted to have a good time, whatever, so we just did that. But she’ll let me know. "No, you can actually lead me and I will follow." She has to remind me of that so many times.

Rechab Gray: Can I get mad practical real quick? This is real practical. We can be chilling at night, both of us are kind of bored with the TV. Happiness looks like, let’s try a different movie. Holiness looks like, maybe the Lord is making us disappointed with what we’re watching right now to lead us in a different direction. Maybe let’s spend some time in prayer, or let’s just talk about the scriptures for a little bit, or talk about the last book you just read. It will be a mad encouraging conversation.

The easier thing and the happier thing would just be let’s keep trying Netflix. The holier thing is to have this deeper conversation or prayer or scripture. Every time we’ve decided the holier thing, we both end up happier and it usually leads to some good intimacy, a happy time.

Dave Wilson: One of the reasons we’re talking about this is when you guys were in here months ago, there was a look on your wives' faces of joy and contentment when they talked about this word submission, which you don't often see with women, even Christian women in the church. It’s like the S-word. Your wives seemed to be thriving when they heard that word. As you think about what that means for us as men, but especially for women, when I speak at churches to men, it’s funny. When you say, "Do you know what the Bible commands women to do in scripture?" they know one verse in the Bible: Ephesians 5:22. They do not know that 23, 24, 25, and all to the men and the husbands, there's a lot more written to us as men. There’s one to her and that’s the only one they know, and they think they also know what it means. She’s supposed to—so I want to ask you guys. What do you think "wives submit to your husband" looks like? What does it mean? And why are your wives thriving when they hear that word rather than what often is the response?

Ike Todd: It’s so fundamental to me. It’s fundamental to just being a human being. We are created in the image of God. We are prophet, priest, king. God made a woman to be a helper. It’s really that simple. It’s so foundational. Her job is to help this man be the priest he is supposed to be. He cannot be what he is supposed to be without her. Therefore, he must love her and cherish her. But she must submit to him.

Let’s take the temple. Everyone submits to the high priest. It’s his job to go into the Holy of Holies. We hear from him. We follow him. Everyone is submitting to him. Well, in the home, I’m the priest, so her job is to submit to the priest. We all submit to our pastors. We all submit to our leaders, our bosses. We submit to the government. We submit to leadership. That’s just the natural order.

I think my wife intuitively gets that, but she also had a wonderful example in her home with her father and her mother. Her father is a pastor of a church. She seen her mother submit to him and the difficulties in that because she’s dealing with a human being. But my wife and I, when we talk about it, we really do try to simplify it. It’s not as big a deal or as scary a thing that people make it to be.

When she talks about it, she points out the 1 Peter 3 passage, but "without fear" is the part that a lot of people miss. She homes in on that. I’m sure she probably talked about that earlier. She tries to submit without fear. I don’t think it has to be this really scary thing. Given we are in a broken world and I’m a broken man and I’m going to make mistakes, then there's going to be a level of fear that she has to work through in submitting to me. But she is willing to work through that. She would relate it to the joy set before—like Christ enduring the cross. He entrusted himself, he submitted himself to the Father for the joy before him. My wife is entrusting herself to me by submitting to Christ and submitting to me. It really doesn’t have to be a bad word. We all submit in one way or another.

Dave Wilson: That was rich stuff, and we’ve got more of what we just talked about. We didn’t even get into the really good stuff that’s coming tomorrow, so stay tuned for tomorrow.

Ann Wilson: Before we’re done today, I just want to remind our listeners we know life is full of challenges and families today need biblical truth more than ever. Isn't that true?

Dave Wilson: That is true.

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Dave Wilson: So let’s make a lasting difference together. Become a partner today. Just go to FamilyLifeToday.com and click the donate button.

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