FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

How do you make this shift? The perspective shift from this is hard, but it's not bad.

Speaker 2

There are people who don't have Jesus. They have some self-discipline. They have systems in place. They get outside help, they get organized, and then you can function.

But the joy. The joy comes from the Holy Spirit. It is a fruit of the Spirit. You can't do it without God's word and his Holy Spirit.

Speaker 3

So I don't know whether to stand up and cheer or to bow down for our guests today, because let me just give you a little bit.

Can you imagine having 10 children homeschooling and two sets of twins right there? Just that, like, Abby, I've already put you on a pedestal.

Like, what in the world? But you're writing books, too, and you're a fitness. There's just so many things.

Speaker 1

Go ahead. Fitness instructor. You didn't even finish that.

Speaker 3

Yes, a fitness instructor.

Speaker 1

And we just found out a pickleball. Like, 4.0, 4.5 maybe. I don't know.

Speaker 2

Not 4.5 yet. That's the goal.

Speaker 1

That's the goal.

Speaker 2

Yeah. 4.1. That's. You know, we're getting there.

Speaker 3

We have Abby Helberstadt with us today, and she's written this great book, Hard is Not the Same Thing as Bad. The title is intriguing. And so Abby, Dave, and I are just gonna sit here. We're gonna put you on this pedestal.

Speaker 2

Like, I always sweat when I'm on, like, podcasts. And what a great way to start. Abby, let's tell people about your perspiration. My body just is like, release the hounds. No matter how not nervous I am.

Cause I'm not nervous right now. But it's just, like a physiological response. I'm the same. The thought of you putting me on a pestle like this is so uncomfortable.

Speaker 3

I'm sure it was. I couldn't help myself. Anybody that has a set of twins. But you have two sets of twins?

Speaker 2

I do. And let me just tell you, I did not think I wanted them. So our history with fertility is that my mom, who is, I mean, put it on a pedestal. She's the one. She's amazing. She has two whole children. People always assume I come from a big family. I don't. I have one older brother who's four years older than I am.

But my mom would have happily welcomed any children that the Lord had for her. And his answer was two children and a lot of miscarriages. And so I think that that is a conversation that needs to be had. Because people, when they talk about openness to the Lord's sovereignty, especially in the area of fertility, assume that they're probably going to have 20k.

What if the answer is the exact opposite?

Speaker 3

2.

Speaker 2

You are happy to have as many as the Lord gives you, and the Lord says the number is two.

And so it's interesting when people make these assumptions, because if you have 10 kids, it must be because you were like gunning for some sort of record, right?

Well, I didn't have any point of reference for this.

Speaker 3

And you didn't start your married life thinking, I'm going to have 10 kids?

Speaker 2

No, I don't. I don't think most people do. If anybody does, you know that. That's a pretty foreign concept.

I will say that on my second day with my husband, I had been engaged before, and one of the sore points was birth control, infertility, and things like that. It's not why we broke up, but it was like. It was a thing struggle.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And I remember on my second date with my husband, I literally told him, like, I will not be using chemical birth control. It's not good for my body. I don't want to do it.

And I think that when Proverbs 3:5-6 talks about submitting all your ways to the Lord, "Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. In all your ways, acknowledge him and he will make your path straight," I think that's even more important. He will make your path straight. That includes fertility.

A lot of people kind of section that out because it's so life-altering. You know, you have so much commitment and responsibility when you have this little life come into your life; your whole life changes and changes everything. Exactly.

And so I dropped the bomb of, like, I'm not the least bit interested in altering my hormones. And that could mean like six whole kids.

Speaker 3

You know, that's what we were thinking.

Speaker 2

When we talk about, like, not expecting to have 10 kids. That was like the max my brain could even fathom because I think that was double digits. About the largest family that I knew. You know, I'm still back to.

Speaker 1

You did this on the second date.

Speaker 2

Yes. Well, that's smart.

Speaker 1

Wow. This could go somewhere.

Speaker 2

I better start 100%, really. So my husband was not a Christian when I first met him. And if you had told me that I was gonna even consider dating and, or much less marrying a man who had not been a believer for a significant amount of time, was steeped in God's Word.

Because I distinctly remember the moment at 5 years old when I was listening to Bullfrogs and Butterflies with my best friend Rhonda. And there was a song that came on about, you know, heaven and accepting Jesus into your heart, you know, kind of those colloquialisms we use as children and declaring the Lord, you know, Jesus, lord of your life and recognizing that you're a sinner.

And I remember all these things. I remember mine, yes, very distinctly. Like, it is probably the most distinct memory of my childhood, really. And that is the moment that I gave my life to the Lord.

So to meet a man who wasn't even a Christian yet and to even consider dating him was not something I would have ever expected or thought was even possible.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And so we knew each other. We played sports together because we're both really athletic. I beat him in ping pong a couple times.

Speaker 3

Oh, yeah, you did.

Speaker 2

So we had this rivalry going, but very friendly and flirty, of course. I was the coordinator for our 20-somethings group at church, and I would send out these emails. Because I love words, they were never just like, "We're meeting at the Mexican restaurant on Friday night." It was filled with puns, riddles, and goofy language. I was such a nerd. But he loved it because he's a software developer by trade.

He’s also built two houses with his own hands for us. Additionally, he won literary criticism at UIL in high school and was valedictorian at his school, which had a total of 14 students. Still, he was the best of the 14 academically, making him a true Renaissance man. I was really drawn to that.

By the second date, neither one of us were flirty types, and we both knew this could go somewhere. I needed him to be either scared or aware of what he was getting into.

Speaker 1

So how did he come to Christ? Did you lead him to Christ?

Speaker 2

No. Although I would love to think that just by having strong convictions and his being attracted to that, that he was, you know, at least kind of geared more that direction. No, he. We all have some level of common grace. Obviously not all are saved, of course.

And that is the tragic reality of the separation from Christ. That is sin without repentance. And so I feel like some of us in some ways have more common grace than others.

My husband was full of integrity. He was kind, he was hardworking.

Speaker 3

Sounds like a good man.

Speaker 2

Yes. But of course, there was no one righteous. Not even one. So he wasn't righteous. But he was what the world would call, quote, unquote, good.

To the point that he had had girlfriends in college who had wanted to stay over. One did literally stay the night because she had car trouble. He rolled up a comforter in the bed between them, which is so unusual, right? Because he had this conviction that he would be cheating on his future spouse if he had sex with someone before marriage.

Speaker 3

For an unbeliever, that's kind of crazy.

Speaker 2

It is kind of crazy. And so I feel like even though we are all depraved in the heart of man and desperately wicked, we know that very clearly from Scripture, that the Lord was kind to give Sean insight. His mom had taken him to church. He had some knowledge of Christianity. He had a little bit of biblical exposure.

Ultimately, how he described it was that he had all of the knowledge without the enlightening of the Holy Spirit. And so it wasn't this huge leap. It was like, here's the reason. He was a deist. He believed that there was a God who had designed everything, but then he had just stepped back and wasn't interacting with mankind.

When he came to the realization, because the Lord drew his heart to him, that, no, I am a deeply personal God who loves you and who chose you before the foundations of the world were laid, it was just like all of it clicked into place and made sense. The leaps that he made in terms of conviction, maturity, and growth were just incredible and happened very, very quickly.

Speaker 3

That's really cool. And I love that you stated, "This is what I'm. This is what's important to me in a marriage."

I think that when we're dating, we try to please the other person so much that we bend and contour to whatever they want because we're so desperate for the relationship.

It shows your desperateness for Jesus and to have a marriage that's reflective of that.

Speaker 2

Well, I feel like the Lord had already prepared my heart because I can be a people pleaser. I do not bend on things of conviction. The Lord has given me that; I just won't. But that's no credit to me. I mean, I think He's gifted me the personality for that. However, when it comes to those things where you just want people to like you, and it's not necessarily a moral issue, I will definitely change my personality or whatever, or I can tend to do that. I think we all can.

Because I had that previous relationship, which the Lord works all things together for good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose, I felt that even though it was really hard at the time and one of the hardest years of my life up to that point, it had given me this rock-solid conviction. This matters so much to me, and I want this to be. I think that every Christian should go to the Lord with every aspect of their lives, including their fertility, instead of defaulting to some sort of cultural standard.

For example, our marriage counselors, whom we were required to see through our church, were very sweet people and gave us lots of good advice. However, one thing we found really interesting—and we just smiled and tried not to look at each other—was that one of their biggest pieces of advice was not to have children too soon. I don't know who gets to decide that, especially when we're talking about the Lord being the opener and closer of the womb and the one who gives and takes life.

So, we got in the car and just kind of looked at each other like, "We are going to disappoint them so hardcore if the Lord wills," you know, kind of thing. Back to the twin thing you mentioned.

Speaker 3

Oh, wait, how soon did you have your first baby?

Speaker 2

One week before our first anniversary.

Speaker 3

Okay.

Speaker 2

Which I will say that we thought God's timing was incredible because we're doing nothing to prevent and we don't get pregnant for three months, which turns out I'm fertile Myrtle. So that was kind of a miracle.

And I was teaching high school Spanish. I graduated at 19 and started teaching high school Spanish at 19 and was teaching kids that were like, my age. I was teaching seniors.

Speaker 1

What do you mean you graduated? 19.

Speaker 2

I was homeschooled. And my mom, when I was 14 or 15 years old, said, basically because my older brother had also done this, that my dad got an associate's degree at a community college. My older brother was 14, and she was like, "You can go get a lot of your basics out of the way. Just go with your dad, you know, because as long as you have scores to get into the college." I think the cutoff age was something like 13 or 14. My brother had done it, and my mom has her master's degree in English. She's very academic and has taught at the collegiate level. She knows all the things and homeschooled my brother and me.

So, she told me, at around 14 or 15, that I could either do my last two years of high school and then basically repeat them in college because there weren't nearly as many dual credit or CLEP options back then—I'm not going to say how many years ago, but let's just say it was like 25 years ago. She said I could redo it, or I could just jump into college. I thought, "I'll do that. I'm not doing anything twice that I won't have to do." So, I started at 15, finished at 19, and began teaching high school Spanish.

By the time I was 22, I was in my third or fourth year of teaching—I'm pretty sure it was my fourth year. I ended up announcing my pregnancy quite late into it. I'm sure people noticed I was looking a little thick, but I didn't say anything until about 20 weeks because you can kind of get away with that with your first baby. I remember the guidance counselor, who is a kind, godly woman that goes to our church now, probably has no memory of saying this, but when we announced the pregnancy, she said, "Oops, accidents happen."

She assumed, because our culture tells us this is the right way to do it, that we couldn't possibly have meant to or been open to having children so early in our marriage. I remember my mouth falling open, and the people-pleasing part of me didn’t say anything back to her. I just laughed awkwardly because I didn’t know what to say, and I was 22 years old—well, I think I was 23 by that point.

Here I am thinking the Lord's timing is amazing because I wasn't due until the last week after finals. I thought, "Look at that! I'll have the whole summer if I want to come back." I did a couple more years full-time or part-time until I quit to stay home with my kiddos. It was just a different perspective; I thought, "You worked that out great." I didn't have to leave in the middle of the year, and I didn't inconvenience anybody. Sure enough, I had him one week after my last final and one week before our first anniversary.

Speaker 1

Ruin your marriage?

Speaker 2

No, it did not, in fact, ruin our marriage.

Speaker 3

Well, and I think the reason I could tease you when I first met you is because she does that to every guest.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

She just bows to everybody.

Speaker 3

I don't think I've ever done that.

Speaker 1

I don't think she's ever done that.

Speaker 3

The reason I could do it is because you're incredibly real and honest in your book. You can tell that by the title. Hard is not the same thing as bad. So you're saying it's raising kids can be hard.

Speaker 2

Oh, 100%.

Speaker 3

And you have 10 of them. And you don't shy away from saying, like, yes, it's hard. Yeah, it is. And so that's the thing that I've appreciated, that you haven't put yourself on the pedestal.

Speaker 2

I mean, if I ever put myself on a pedestal, I pray God knocks me off right away. Exactly. The audacity to say follow me rather than follow Christ. Like, please never, Lord.

One of my best friends and mentors, Jennifer Flanders, has 12 children. And that's not why we're best friends. We have completely different personalities. And there isn't some large family Moms Unite club that we got a competition.

Speaker 1

Going on here, is there?

Speaker 2

No.

Speaker 1

You going for three more?

Speaker 2

No. She is 17 years my senior, and her three youngest are the same age as my three oldest. But she is just such a wonderful source of wisdom.

She's the de facto editor of all my books. Like, she gets first shot at all of them and just is such a good sounding board.

But she says, I pray this prayer every day, Lord, take me home before you ever let me betray you. Or, like, blaspheme your name, even unintentionally in any way. And it's a scary prayer. Cause she's literally like, take me out.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Don't let me disgrace your name.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Or make it about me.

Speaker 3

Yes. And we're living in a culture that it's really easy to make it about us. And you're not. You're putting all the glory and all the tension onto Jesus.

Speaker 1

Well, there's definitely.

Speaker 3

And you could at least, like, I'm thinking, you know, 10 kids. Is she gonna be, like, frumpy and. Oh, come on.

Speaker 2

Can we get rid of this stereotyp?

Speaker 3

Well, every woman that's had five are like, well, it does change things. And you're gorgeous, but you're incredibly humble, too. So it's really fun.

Speaker 1

I mean, in some ways, you do in some ways think that could be happening. Cause you don't have time for yourself.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that can happen for sure. I think that we make time for what's important to us.

And if you were to walk into my home at 8am on a homeschool morning, you would think I was incredibly frumpy, and I'm okay with that.

So obviously I'm going to put on some makeup and a cute outfit to come to something like this. But on any given day, I'm wearing workout clothes all day with zero makeup and frizzy hair, of course.

Speaker 3

But I love. I think that we as women, when we're in this together and we can hear somebody that's homeschooling, that's raising kids, that's writing books, you're like, man, she's learned a few things. I want to hear what you have to say.

Speaker 2

Well, and I think that that is true. I think that we need to keep all the glory and honor to Jesus, but not gatekeep some things that we have picked up along the way as a way of false humility.

Like, oh, one of my least favorite things for seasoned moms to say is, "I know less than when I started." I know. I understand the concept.

Speaker 3

You know what they mean.

Speaker 2

I do know what they mean, but I don't know that everybody else does because I hear from lots of young moms that are like, would somebody please step up and have the confidence and the courage to say, the Lord has grown me.

And here are some really helpful things that are principles. You don't have to do them like I do them. You don't have to apply them the way that I apply them. Go with the interest and the personality and the strengths as well as addressing the weaknesses that the Lord has given you.

And don't try to copy anybody else's particular application of the principles. But my goodness, don't shy away from saying, the Lord has grown me in patience and self-discipline, because how depressing would it be to say, I've given 20 years of my life to parenting and I'm worse off than when?

Speaker 3

I started, and we should be different. We should be better. Not better in that we have it totally figured out, but better in that, man, we've grown, we've learned. It's called sanctification.

Speaker 2

It's a process.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

You guys are a lot alike.

Speaker 3

Do you think so?

Speaker 1

I feel like I could go in the production booth to just let you two talk, because what am I doing here? But no, even on our first date, and her dad was my high school coach. I was a quarterback. Her brother's my center. So I knew the family really well. She was the younger sister, like you said earlier, not on air, but under the bleachers catching foul balls. And she was a better athlete. And all her brothers and brothers, if you're listening, you know that's true. You know that's true. And they were all college athletes.

But our first day, we were sitting by the Finley Reservoir in Findlay, Ohio, and we're three years apart; I'm older by three years. I said to her, "I'm going to my senior year in college." She's still a senior in high school. I just asked, "So what do you want to do with your life?" She looked at me and said, "I'm following Jesus. Whoever he calls me to do, I'm in. He's called me to something, and if a guy's going to be a part of it, whatever. But I don't think it has anything to do with a guy. That's where I'm going."

I'm like, I'm marrying this girl. I mean, it's like nobody had ever said, like you did on your second date, "This is a conviction of mine. It's important to me. Whether you like it or not, this is who I am." That's appealing to men and to your kids: that you are a woman who knows who you are, knows who God is, knows what God called you to do, and you're going to live that out.

Speaker 3

And you're not perfect in it, but you have strong convictions because of the word of God and our relationship with God.

Speaker 2

Yeah, he's the one that gives us that.

Speaker 3

Let me ask you, because with this book, you're getting into all kinds of areas that you've grown in. But let's start, because we've already hit that young moms.

Because it can be shocking for a lot of us as young moms. I remember saying to my dad, because I was in sports my whole life, too. I remember. I think I had a colicky baby, the first one. And I remember saying to him, because he says, so how is this? How are you doing?

Like Dad, I could go out and run a marathon today with no training, and it would be easier than what I'm doing right now at home. I'm so over my head. I do not know what I'm doing. And I'm not getting sleep and I'm not liking Dave, and I'm blaming Dave.

So what about that mom that's in that right now where everything feels overwhelming because you've been there 100%.

Speaker 1

I mean, she thinks what your title is. This is hard and it's bad, right?

Speaker 2

Yes. Okay. So part of that is human nature. I think we naturally equate something difficult that we're going through, especially when it's unpleasant, which I know is bad.

I mean, there are difficult things that I enjoy, like lifting weights. Lifting weights is difficult, especially when you get to that point where you're in progressive overload and your muscles are just screaming at you.

But I like it too, being screamed at by a colicky baby. Nobody likes that. Like, there's not. You're not thinking about.

Speaker 3

There's no control.

Speaker 2

There's no control. You cannot make it stop.

Which one thing that I always say, and those who have ears to hear, do hear it, is if you say you want to be like Christ and you are a mother, be grateful that you have been given a built-in opportunity to become more like him, instead of looking at it as a, how do I get through to the easier part of this?

Speaker 3

And that's what we do. Can't wait till this stage is over.

Speaker 2

Yes, exactly. And there's so much you miss. And people are like, well, I mean, I guess most people aren't like, well, easy for you to say because I have done it so many times, so I must know at least a little bit wherever I speak.

But what I say to those women is that there is no scriptural support for saying that the current struggle that you're in now gets to define anything for you in terms of your relationship to the Lord. That we are called to suffer well, that we are told by Jesus that we will experience hardship, not that we will sort of be inconvenient sometimes, or certainly not that we will be able to manifest all good things for ourselves and end up with only rainbows and butterflies.

But instead, he literally tells us, in this world you will have trouble, but that would just be depressing to end there. And instead, he follows it up with immediately, not wallow in it, consider yourself a victim or grouse to your girlfriends constantly, but be of good cheer.

Which feels like such a slap in the face when you're suffering, but it comes directly from our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. So we have to then keep going. Which is for I have overcome the world. And so you have to find the practical ways that that actually means something to you.

Speaker 3

Somebody's saying right now, like, how do I be of good cheer when I haven't slept? I have a.

Speaker 1

Well, your opening chapter, I mean, you describe it so well. I don't know what her name was. Crying in the car seat, crawling out of the car seat.

Speaker 3

I mean, that right there, take us back to that day. Because I'm like, that is being a mom, right?

Speaker 2

So to touch on the thing you said about twins way back when, you're like, you know, one set of twins. Oh, my goodness, that's enough.

And here I am thinking I'm open handed, but not having a clue what the Lord is going to do.

The one little caveat I was pulling aside was do not give me multiples.

Speaker 3

Lord, you said that?

Speaker 2

Oh, yes. Like, I was like Lord Jesus. And of, you know, I'm 22 years old and I'm like, twins sound miserable. Like that just sounds like, how would you ever do anything but feed them and change diapers and never sleep?

Which did not. I mean, was somewhat my reality, but somewhat not. Evie and Nolan, my first set of twins. Cause I have two sets of twins.

Speaker 3

And this isn't because you had any hormones, any kind of artificial.

Speaker 2

No, in fact, the Lord has such a great sense of humor. So both of my sets of twins, as far as we know, are identical. So. And that's more unusual than fraternal twins. And they are a gift. So they do not come from hereditary. They do not come from, I mean, I guess something could happen with hormones, but we weren't taking any. And it's where you have one baby splits into two. And so I think it's one in a thousand births or something like that. But science has never found any connection between a particular woman and having identical sets of twins. So to have one is pretty random. And you're unusual to have two sets that are both identical. And the way that we, we've never had them genetically tested, but there's only one placenta both times. So your body only prepared for one baby, so that's a pretty good scientific indication, is very unusual. And then we actually had another twin pregnancy right after our first twin pregnancy. And we lost my son Theo's identical twin brother because there was only one placenta to something called vanishing twin syndrome, which we would have never even known there was another baby. But after having a set of twins that we didn't find out until 19 weeks, we were like, we're having an early sonogram and seeing like, what's going on in there. So we can just be mentally prepared. Right. And we found the sonographer was able to see a shadow where the baby had been, even measure the shadow and know that the baby had died three weeks before. And so I've actually been pregnant with identical twins three separate times. Wow. And two live births and of both of them surviving. And my husband did some sort of crazy math and it was like 1 in 27 million chance, according to science. But I just really feel like it was the Lord's way of saying, if you say I'm in control, you better mean it. So my first set of twins were dream babies. They slept through the night by 11 weeks.

Speaker 3

How many kids had you already had, by the way?

Speaker 2

They were my numbers, 4 and 5. And I distinctly remember lying on my husband's chest that night in the dark the day that we found out that it was twins. And saying five kids is a lot of kids. Like the reality of that. And my oldest was five.

Speaker 3

Come on. So, yeah, the oldest kids were five. What?

Speaker 2

Five, three and one. Yeah. Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 1

And didn't know that you were gonna times that by two.

Speaker 2

By two, who knew? And so then. And my girls, it was a lot of work because there were a lot of kids and two babies at the same time. But we were making it work. And then they hit toddlerhood. And my one particular girl who's the younger of them by, you know, eight whole minutes, Magnolia Claire. We call her Nola, who is just a force to be reckoned with. She is such a precious girl. It's such a great name, really. Which one?

Speaker 3

It's Nola.

Speaker 2

Oh, I love it. It's so unusual. Like, it's very rare. I love that. And she just was. And seeing like how deeply she feels things and like how she charges through life now in such a productive and cool way, you're like, okay, this is where this was going. But at three or two and three quarters, like when they went off the deep end, my husband was on like a wilderness trip with his dad out of cell phone range. And that just was the moment where they started screaming in the car. They had sensory issues, you know, everything just bothered them, Everything. And I think the older one, Evie, just kind of went along with her sister, but they just tag teamed it to such an exhausting degree.

Speaker 3

So you're in the car and they're.

Speaker 2

Screaming every single time. And I was a fitness instructor and I taught four to five days a week, which was my outlet. Right.

Speaker 3

Of course, I did that too.

Speaker 2

You drive in, you get everywhere.

Speaker 3

I mean, it's for your sanity.

Speaker 2

It's for your sanity. But also just getting like five and at this point six kids because I've had another baby, because they're toddlers now. Out the door, everybody has to have shoes. Everybody needs to be closed and sort of in their right mind enough to like walk to the car and buckle the car seats. Right. And we would drive down, we had kind of long driveway. And I recruited I talk about this in the book. I recruited the kids. Like, we would help distract them. And I would be almost the end of the driveway and I wouldn't hear any, like, spitting noises behind me yet. And I'd be like, lord, maybe today. Maybe today's the day that I don't get screamed at for the next 30 minutes. And everybody else like loses a little bit of their hearing. And then you'd hear this and it would get louder and louder and louder and just they would both take off. Oh, my word.

Speaker 3

What kind of vehicle did you have at that time?

Speaker 2

I was in a Honda Odyssey, which, with every single seat filled, it was so crammed. And then somewhere in the midst of that, we switched to a 12 passenger van. But we were still. We were pretty on top of each other.

Speaker 3

So who was trying to get out? Didn't you say that they could get out of their car seats?

Speaker 2

Yeah, the one. The situation that I describe in the beginning of this book is Nola on the way home. And I had taken just her so that everybody could get a break. She was wonderful, but also just a lot. And so I'm like, you're just coming with me to the gym. My husband was home, the rest of the kids were home. And. And on the way home, she started getting upset about the buckles. It was a sensory thing to a very great extent. But like, you can't do anything about it because they have to be in a car seat, you know? And so she is contortioning herself out of this seat. I don't even know how. And I pulled over like five times, rebuckled it.

Speaker 3

No, you didn't.

Speaker 2

Cinched it down to where she ended up having like marks on her neck. Cause she was writhing around so hard. And I had to like, get it tighter than normally to be safe. Cause I was afraid she was gonna be out and like climbing over the front seat. And she will not calm down. And it's just. I remember I would just knock my head against the window. Just bonk my head against the window. It's like almost like a sensory thing for me to be like, I can't throw things and scream.

Speaker 3

So this is what you're talking about when it's hard. And some people would say, that sounds bad.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

But you're saying, no, I've learned a lot.

Speaker 2

Oh my word. If I had not gone through that with the twin girls, some of the things my future children did would have turned me inside out just like they did. And instead I'm like, what you got there's not two of you until there were again. Because my last two, my four year olds are also twin. Twin boys? Yeah.

Speaker 3

What are the ages? The age span. Like your youngest is how old they are.

Speaker 2

Four year old twin boys and then it's all the way up to 19. Okay, so I had 10 kids in 14 years.

Speaker 1

Wow. So how does a mom and a dad, a person, shift? How do, how do you make this shift? The perspective shift from this is hard, but it's not bad. Or that I'm losing my mind and I'm screaming and yelling and I just. I can't find any joy in Jesus.

Speaker 3

I still have the head banging against the window.

Speaker 2

It helped. I don't know why it helped. It helped. You can't do it without God's word and his Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1

I agree.

Speaker 2

I do think that there are people who don't have Jesus that can have that common grace thing. They have some self discipline. They have systems in place, they get outside help, they get organized and then you can function. But the joy, the joy comes from the Holy Spirit. It is a fruit of the spirit.

Speaker 3

But Abby, like, how are you doing that? People are like, wait, you've got all these kids under 5. How do you have God and the Holy Spirit? Like, when do you have time for Jesus?

Speaker 1

What do you think he left the room?

Speaker 3

No, I know he didn't, but we feel like he's left the room.

Speaker 2

Sometimes we are told to pray without ceasing. And I have prayed so many. Just talking. My kids walk in on me just talking to myself and I'm really talking to the Lord while I am doing laundry, while I am wiping bottoms, while I am bathing children. And of course, there's the ongoing conversation. But I also like to teach some of my younger children that have struggled with anger or like sensory issues. Something I call bullet prayers, where it is just a simple, like, shot to heaven. Like Jesus, I don't have any patience. Can you please give me some patience right now? He usually just gives you more opportunities to practice when you ask things like that.

Speaker 3

And you'll pray that out loud.

Speaker 2

Yeah. It's really good for your kids to see you talking to the Lord. To see you desperate for the Lord rather than just desperate. But I always tell moms that there is this misconception about reading our Bibles, that we need to get up at 5am, we need to have color coordinated pens, we need to have hot coffee, we need to have worship music playing in the background.

Speaker 3

Special chair.

Speaker 2

A special chair and a special blankie. And listen if we have to have all those things and we gotta remember where they all are because you know the kids scattered around the house at some point in your special spot that they don't, they're like special. So I wanna play with it. If you have to have all those things, you'll never do it. Or the baby's not sleeping. And 5am is a ridiculous idea. You know, like don't do that to yourself. Read God's word aloud to your children. Put it on songs that have pure scripture in them in the kitchen while you make breakfast.

Speaker 3

What are some of those seeds?

Speaker 2

Family worship is a great option. I mean, Steve Green, Hide God's word in your heart, I think is. Or hide it in your heart is old school, but it's scripture.

Speaker 3

Allie Holcomb has some too that are great.

Speaker 2

Shane and Shane does a whole lot of scripture. Find those good theologically sound scripture based resources that don't require more effort from you say Alexa, play. Shane and Shane instead of Alexa play Baby shark for the 456th time. And so it takes a little bit of intentionality or like memorizing God's word with your kids. I know people that do like devotions and songs and that's amazing. And I love it. I don't, I say, okay, do everything without complaining or arguing. Now you guys say do everything without complaining or arguing. You know, give thanks in all circumstances. Give thanks in all circumstances. For this is the will of God for you in Christ Jesus. For this is the will. And we just keep repeating it until we've got it. We've memorized whole chapters together that way.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 2

And my mom did the same for us and I think we overthink things. And we also think that certain things don't count and they have to look.

Speaker 3

A certain way and they have to.

Speaker 2

Look a certain way. But our family Bible reading, which my husband leads now looks a little bit like a circus sometimes. Like our. We have a very open planned house on purpose because we want to be able to be all in a big room together. And there's a lot of us. So the kitchen bleeds into the living room and I'm in the kitchen making eggs and making a bunch of noise and hey, can you say that again? I didn't hear you. And the little boys are asking me questions and I'm shushing them and the older kids are like half awake and because you know, they don't wanna get up at 7:30 and do Bible reading. They like Bible reading. And they actually, I think my older children all read their Bibles on their own in the evenings. And people always ask me how, I quote, got them to do that, and I didn't. I actually. We don't require that of them. And I am so grateful that they have chosen that.

Speaker 3

And they're not on screens or you don't have TV on in the evenings.

Speaker 2

Oh, sometimes if we watch movies together as a family or something. But this is, like, when they go to bed.

Speaker 3

Okay, so they go to bed, they read the Bible.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And, like, an older one will read it to her younger sisters and that kind of thing. So they're all in the same. Cause we actually have a boy wing and a girl wing in our house. I mentioned that my husband built houses, and his dad owned a construction company and he worked with him. And so they. They have. And they work together to build two of our houses completely from scratch. Like, everything, electrical, plumbing, siding, framing, flooring, everything. And so we built a boy's wing which has four bunks in it, and then a room in front that can be converted to a bedroom if we need to, and a girl's wing that has four bunks in it. So they'll sit in there and. And read the Bibles at night. And somet they're up way too late, and I'll be like, what are y' all doing up there? Like, we haven't read our Bibles yet. I'm sure they skip some nights. But it's not about legalism. It's about the heart of thinking that God's word is living and active and it never returns void. And it has everything we need for life and godliness. So of course we prioritize it, and of course, we use it as our foundation for everything.

Speaker 3

Let me ask you. Because one of the things it stopped me as I was reading it is that you said you don't even focus that much on all the stuff the little kids are like. You know the hard part of it, because it doesn't seem as hard anymore. Is that kind of what you said? Something like, when I think about, like, the younger kids, that's not even the thing. Now I'm more focused on hearing, like, it's nothing. Does it get easier now that you've had these kids and the little ones are like, this is just. You've learned so much about it.

Speaker 2

Yes and no. I would say that, interestingly enough, my last two have probably been my clingiest. Probably just because they haven't had a baby to kick them out of the baby status, you know? And so they have not been. I think that there is a hope that when you have another child, if you choose to have another child or the Lord gives you another child, that this will be the easy one and that they'll just progressively get easier. But I haven't found that to be the case.

Speaker 3

You haven't?

Speaker 2

No. I've had three that have been just really easy toddlers. Just easygoing, cheerful. We're going here. Great. I'm good. We're going here. We're doing this. I'm happy. And I've had seven that have been challenging for various reasons in various ways. And my last two were challenging because they were obsessed with me. I nursed them until they were two years and three. At two years and nine months old, longest I've ever nursed babies.

Speaker 3

Probably like Hannah with Samuel. Yeah, she probably went longer, actually.

Speaker 2

Who knows? Yeah, probably did, honestly. And they just. We took a huge family trip two years ago to Europe for 45 days. All of us went and what? Yes. And one. And it was wonderful. And things could not have gone better. Our weather was perfect. We were all safe. It was such an enjoyable experience. But it's. You can say it was such an enjoyable experience. And also that was really hard. Like, there was a lot of moving. There were a lot of moving pieces. And two of the moving pieces constantly were keeping two 2 year olds who were very out of their element, okay with life.

Speaker 3

I can't even imagine.

Speaker 2

It was a constant, like, family, working together thing. But here's what I don't want. I don't want my older kids to get to parenting and go, what? In the actual world, she never told us about any of this. They are never the parents. There's a whole conversation about parentification. And if you ask your kids to be participants in your home or ever like play with their siblings or watch them or help them with something, you're making them the parent. That is absolute nonsense. We know the difference between helping someone do something for 30 minutes and being in charge of their entire lives.

Speaker 3

That's good.

Speaker 2

And I do think that we rob our kids of an incredible opportunity to just like it talks about in Philippians 2, 4, consider others as more important than yourselves. Look not only to your own needs, but to the needs of others. If we are called to love God and love our neighbors, we better start with the neighbors that live in our own home. And loving means giving of ourselves, not just prioritizing what we want to do and never being inconvenienced by our siblings or our parents or the neighbors outside Our doors. So when you said, is it just kind of like you just roll with it now? Yes, in some ways. But also the Lord gave us two very clingy, needy little boys at the end. And they are still some of our rascally in some ways, you know, just to come up with a word. But it doesn't faze me like it used to.

Speaker 3

Maybe that's different.

Speaker 2

It still requires a great deal of effort and focus. In fact, I would say they were my biggest focus in the last four years, while also not ignoring my older children, of course. But they took the most mental, emotional, and physical energy.

Speaker 3

Your time and energy.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah. They were with me all the time. And if I was going somewhere, they were with me. Whereas the older kids, they can stay home. Like, I get them started on math and they can do math while I take the little babies that are going to distract the tar out of them to the gym with me, teach a class, pick up some groceries, come back, and then we just roll with our day. The babies go down for naps. We literally still call them the babies because they are the babies of our family, even though they're four and a half. So it is. It is still like we are going to be giving of ourselves and pouring ourselves. Like Romans 12:1 says, you know, offer yourselves as off your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, for this is your, you know, this is your spiritual act of worship.

Speaker 3

Yep.

Speaker 2

And again, whereas the culture tells us you should kind of try to skate through motherhood as much as possible without letting it face you too much, because if you don't. I literally just came across account the other day that was doing some fitness stuff. And the fitness stuff had a spinoff account and it was called something about selfish motherhood. And it was the idea that you put yourself first or you won't be able to prioritize anyone else, which is the opposite of what Philippians 2:4 says.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 2

And this wasn't a Christian.

Speaker 3

It's kind of that. The twisted self care thing, right?

Speaker 2

Exactly. Yeah. And my first book, Ms. For Mama, I have a whole chapter called Self care versus Soul care, where it's like, I mean, my nails are done right now, I'm wearing jewelry, my makeup is done. I'm not at home with my children currently. Clearly it's not just this absolute slog that you never ever come up for breath from and help is always wanted and accepted. But when you make it about you first, rather than saying, lord, what do you have for me? A lot of times you Just create this void that. But no amount of treats and drinks out with girlfriends or whatever all the world tells us that we need to survive, or Starbucks or Target runs or you know, just kind of the things that are the social media memes, they don't fill it.

Speaker 3

And I think too is because we're in that area, it's so easy to be on social media and we get into the comparison mode, man. And it's really easy to fall down that valley when you're a parent and when you're a mom and you're looking at other lives or you're looking at other moms who seem like they've got it all together, or they are having their me time and you're like, I haven't gone to the bathroom by myself in five years.

Speaker 1

Honestly, I'm listening to this conversation, I'm thinking you're the one they're comparing themselves to.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

I mean, you are remarkable in terms of what you do.

Speaker 3

The capacity that God's giving thinking.

Speaker 1

The average mom is like, she writes books, she homeschools, she teaches fitness, she's got 10 kids, blah, blah, blah, builds homes. I mean, it's awesome. But the average mom is probably like, it's unattainable. And you're saying, no, it isn't unattainable.

Speaker 2

Right. Because your version, no matter what it is, is not less than, it's only different. And so if you're saying, I bake bread in my home and have people over, glory be to God, like that is what he has called you to do. Be faithful in that. Also, you've probably heard somewhere that this idea of never compare your beginning or middle to someone else's kind of farther down the line. I did some of these things, like the fitness instructing, which again, it's only hard and bad in our brains when it's something hard that we don't enjoy. Right. Like I was giving them, I like exercising. It's fun, but it's right. If someone doesn't like exercising, they can't relate. I don't like gardening. I want to like gardening, but I don't like gardening. I'm terrible about like outdoor plant stuff. And so someone that's just out there. My sister in law. My sister in law planted this gorgeous garden. You know what my first impulse when I walked into this gorgeous garden was? One, to praise her. Two, to be like, oh no, I'm failing. I gotta get on this. And then I step back because I'm 42 now and I have more sense than I did when I was 20 and was trying to, like, do all the things at the same time. And I go, exactly in what time would you do this, Abby? It's taken. And the Lord has put that in your path. So keep going down that path that you have and let her be amazing in this and cheer for her, because the Lord has gifted her in this and then grow in it. When you get an opportunity in a little space of time.

Speaker 3

It's a lot like the Proverbs 31:Woman. I used to read that and be overwhelmed with all the things that she did. Like. No, that's her lifespan.

Speaker 2

She's a prototype, too.

Speaker 3

Yes, exactly. They're not describing this one particular woman.

Speaker 2

Yeah. They're describing things that you can do to be, rise up and call blessed for doing, taking care of your family well, looking well to the ways of your household economically, and being frugal and wise and making good choices and honoring your husband. And you see her doing all those things. But. But I'm never playing pickleball, being a fitness instructor, writing a book and teaching math at the same time.

Speaker 3

Same time, exactly.

Speaker 2

You know, and I didn't publish a book until I was 39. I always say I'm just a highly pragmatic person. I don't do, quote, unquote dreams. I don't set goals. I'm not someone that's like, in five years, I will have sold this many books. The Bible tells us, you don't know where you're going to be tomorrow. And the Lord is the one that counts the hairs on your head and gives you the next breath in your body. And so it talks about in James that you say, if the Lord wills, we will do this or that and go. And so how presumptuous of me to say, in five years, I know I'm gonna be killing it in this one. I don't care. I, like, actually don't care. Sure, numbers are nice, but if I'm killing it, and I have made that happen outside of the Lord's will for my life, shame on me.

Speaker 3

And your kids are miserable because you spent so much time away that you're not around now.

Speaker 1

Do you do the same thing with your kids? Like, not set goals? Like, they're going to be doing this in two years.

Speaker 2

Oh, gosh.

Speaker 1

A lot of moms live under this guilt. Even the sports thing. What do you guys do with that?

Speaker 2

So we did not do a lot of sports with our younger children because we didn't want to spend every evening away from our homes, running around we are both very sports minded and grew up doing a ton of sports, but we also come from much smaller families and, and so we would do like soccer in the spring and whoever wanted to play soccer, we would all do soccer and we would run around in the yard. We have a big front yard, you know, just things like that. But as our kids have gotten older, so particularly my second son Simon, who's 17 now, loves sports and we homeschool and there is a homeschool league in our area. We have a very active homeschooling community in East Texas. And there's a homeschool league that's quite competitive. So he played, I'm trying to remember what, how much, how many players does a normal football, you know this. How many players does a normal football team have that they play well?

Speaker 1

You play 11 at a time.

Speaker 2

Okay, so this was six man football, I think.

Speaker 1

Okay, so probably seven man. They have seven man.

Speaker 2

Okay, okay, that sounds good. I didn't ever count. I just, I just needed to know who mine was out there. And two of my boys played that for a couple of years. And then Simon has gotten really into basketball and he just practices and practices and absolutely loves it. You were talking about, do I plan for my kids? I graduated early and so I assumed all my kids would because who wants to, you know, and would go to college. But my son was on track to graduate a year early and my oldest son did graduate a year early and really was kind of unmoored for a year. Was like, now what? Because he's choosing to do computer programming. I think the world is changing with college and I have no idea if any of my kids are going to go. I mean my age, back at college age, it was like, of course you're going. And now it's like trades and learning skills and jumping right into earning money, which I think is really wise.

Speaker 1

And no student debt.

Speaker 2

No student debt, exactly. So my oldest is learning computer programming like his dad, but for that year after high school where everybody else was still in school at his homeschool co op, he was like, what do I do with myself? So my second born is obsessed with sports. He wants to be an athletic trainer and wants to work with athletes. And he's gonna be really good at it too. He's personable, he loves the burn. He loves. He's very motivated and disciplined and gets after that. And so here I am thinking he's gonna wanna graduate a year early. And he said, mama, please tell them I'm not a senior this year because I Wanna play basketball for another year? Of course I did that. So even the plans that I did have, I mean, they change.

Speaker 3

That's what happens with 10 kids. And I remember, like, I'm trying to see who God made our kids to be. You probably do that. You're just, it's so fun.

Speaker 2

That's one of my favorite things about being a mom.

Speaker 3

Yes. And that's what you've done. You haven't made your kids become something. You're watching who God created them to be.

Speaker 2

100%.

Speaker 3

How did you learn that?

Speaker 2

I think my parents did a good job of exemplifying that for me because I went to college so early. Of course she had some input on my class choices and stuff because I had no idea what I was doing. And so she was thinking very pragmatically and she was thinking I might be a physical therapist or physical therapist assistant. Because you have flexibility of schedule. If you become a mom, you have, you know, a good degree that you can keep and a certification like whatever all the right terms are for. And I mean, I was like, okay, mom. And I mean, not so very reluctantly, but just like, okay, I'll try that. I would have been a terrible physical therapist assistant. I mean, I just, that's. I'm very physical, but I'm not science minded. I just, I don't, I'm not medically minded. I don't care about that stuff. I love words and I love languages. And so I ended up getting a double BA in Spanish and English. And interestingly enough, the Lord has used both of those things. I have an English degree that I 100% use to write books now. And I taught high school Spanish between public, private and homeschool co op for a combined total of 10 years. And so that wasn't her plan for me, but she rolled with it when she saw the interest developing and saw me working hard and, you know, making the grades and getting the academic scholarships because we didn't have any money for college. I went to college for free because we needed all, all the scholarships. So I was grateful not to come out with student debt. But yeah, she set the example of being somewhat interest led while having those guidelines there. So you don't just completely go off the rails.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1

Now, how were they the chain breakers? You say that at the first page.

Speaker 2

Yes, yes. So the dedication to heart is not the same thing. As bad is to my parents who both grew up with genuinely abusive parents in some way, shape or form. My mom grew up with physically abusive dad And a mom who as a result of being married to that kind of man, was kind and loving in some ways, but also just emotionally unavailable and sometimes didn't get out of bed. And so my mom literally got her hardship license at 13 years old and was driving at 14, driving everybody everywhere, working, doing all the things. She has been someone who has coped since she was very, very young. Someone who has had many, many negative words spoken over her throughout her life. My dad came from an extremely godless and my mom lived in the south, lived in East Texas. You know, they're going to church. And I think my grandmother was a Christian and my grandfather, whom my mom chose to love instead of. I think she struggled with bitterness at a certain point, but this was the one that was verbally and physically abusive to her. But she just felt convicted that if the Bible says that, you know, we are to forgive because Christ has first forgiven us, that she had to do that, she had to find a way to do that. And so she started, you know, bringing him treats and writing him letters and, and he actually came to Christ on his deathbed, I am sure as a result of her faithfulness to show him what the love and care of Christ looks like. But that was when he was in his 70s, you know, and so my dad's parents were just completely outside of God and just did really damaging things all around. Drugs, alcohol, pornography, all kinds of things. Divorced when he was in his teens. My dad really struggled with various things, particularly drugs in high school and college set by this example of his parents and no guidance and no guardrails. And so he is a believer, but he struggles with bipolarism. And so my mom has shown me what it looks like to truly, for better or for worse, walk beside someone who genuinely struggles and, and to see their commitment to truly following Christ when it would make so much more sense in the world's perspective to tap out has been so inspiring to me, despite the obvious limitations of having a dad who has been hurtful at times. But you know, I've hurt my kids sometimes, you know, maybe not in the same way.

Speaker 3

Your mom could have written the same book title, probably 100%.

Speaker 2

And she is the one that taught me that growing up, if there were, if something didn't go my way, my mother was never going to coddle me. She is one of my best friends in the entire world and she's so full of wisdom and grace and she is the most servant hearted person that I know. So she comes to our house, we hire her to come to our House two days a week. And people will be like, my mom would never accept money or, you know, like, things like that. And I'm like, no, we don't want her working for anyone else. And she does not have the luxury of not working at 73 years old. So we will make sure that she is taken care of and we will make sure that our children have the luxury that we didn't have or I didn't have. My husband had grandparents that he was close to, and that was wonderful. But I didn't have either set of grandparents that I was close to, either because they died when I was young or because they weren't the least bit interested in me. And. And they have. We call her softa. That's the Hebrew word for grandma. They have a softa who does anything for them. She will, you know, she's there. And that incredible luxury is just so precious. I say, I think, I say in the book that one of the most impactful things that my dad did was be willing because my mom's the one with a degree. And so the kind of work that my dad could get was mostly blue collar physical labor that didn't pay a ton. And so there's this, you know, narrative that you can't possibly stay home on a really small income. But my parents wanted to homeschool. They wanted to do something different than they had experienced. And they felt that they were called to be the primary educators of their children that like just talks about in Deuteronomy 6, 6, 8, that we are to teach the ways of God to our children as we walk, sit lion's standard, that they couldn't make the math work to do that the way that they wanted to do without their children at home with them. But when I say them, I mean my mom. And so my dad would drive an hour one way to a job that he worked for 12 hours and then drive an hour home. We didn't see him most weekdays for very long at all. And that in and of itself is maybe a little bit of a mercy because his personality wasn't as naturally loving and nurturing as my mom's. But he showed up at, you know, he would come home from a shift and show up at my soccer game and cheer, and that's what he could do. And I think that there is great mercy from the Lord when we show up with what he's given us and give it to him the best way we know how, even if it's very, very imperfect here on this earth. And so my upbringing, while not smooth sailing was so different than theirs. They absolutely chose to break generational curses of neglect and abuse. And we get to benefit from that and continue passing that down to our children.

Speaker 3

So you've had to forgive your dad. What did that look like in the midst of. And how old were you?

Speaker 2

I can't tell you the exact moment when I realized that I didn't hate him any longer because.

Speaker 3

So you did hate him, though.

Speaker 2

I really feel like that's probably regrettably the best word for how I felt toward him sometimes. Strong bitterness and resentment. Yes.

Speaker 3

Because he, because you just described, like, he's a good man. He was faithful in terms of working. But. There was a but in there.

Speaker 2

Yeah. He was not enjoyable to be around, and he was not kind to my mom. And here I am raised by this woman that I idolize, and a person who is having a manic episode is not in complete control of themselves. And being able to see that happen is. Has given me great compassion for other people who struggle, but it's not something I would wish on anybody. And so he just has a tendency toward, you know, just, we're doing it this way and it has to be this way. And I, I am very careful not to just pass out details willy nilly because I have no business doing so that's not honoring to my father. You don't need to know the details to know that it was a struggle. So someone that's just like, oh, so your dad had hard lines and you just had to stick to a ma. Poor you. No, it was more than. And I don't feel called to share.

Speaker 3

Specifics, but because he's living and because you're trying to honor your mom and dad.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we are called to do that is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you may live long on the earth. I don't want to violate what they deserve biblically as my parents in terms of honor, nor do I want to endanger myself biblically. Right. But just know that there were times of deep hurt, words said, actions done, that I found myself very, very angry that he was, quote, getting away with it. Because it's very hard to hold someone who to some extent doesn't even remember some of the things that they did in the same way that you do, or in the same way that's actually factual, accountable. And again, they're hurting someone that I love, you know, they're being a source of stress to someone that I adore. And you take up that cause, you know which we are actually called scripturally not to do. We are told to fight injustice and to stand up for those who are helpless. But my mom's not helpless. She has Christ as her guide, and she knows what she's committed to. And so I had to really wrestle with a reckoning of which things were my burdens to bear, my offenses to forgive, and which things I was taking on that were not mine, just because I felt like I had a right to be angry because this was wrong, you know? And I would say early 30s, somewhere in that range.

Speaker 3

Well, even your chapter title about this, the Hard Work of Forgiveness, it has the power to change the way we mother. So you're saying because I forgave my dad, and if I hadn't forgiven my dad, it would affect the way you parent 100%.

Speaker 2

I don't think there's any way to live in constant bitterness, especially if you're justifying. I will say this not really in defense, but I was struggling with it. I knew that my anger towards my dad, my resentment toward him was not right. And there are journals, full. And so many tears and prayers, prayed of, lord, take this away, please. Like, I don't want to feel this way. And he ultimately did. But I think it was, I say, the hard work of forgiveness, it's ongoing. It's a process. He's still capable of doing things that get my back up. But I'm able to stand outside it and say, this really doesn't have anything to do with you.

Speaker 3

Like, that's so good.

Speaker 2

It's not about me.

Speaker 3

Me.

Speaker 2

He doesn't hate me. He's not trying to hurt me specifically. And even if he is, that's between him and the Lord. And I have just seen. I talk about this in the chapter, just. And my mom tells me how he prays for us every single day.

Speaker 3

Really?

Speaker 2

Yeah. He's a genuine believer. He knows God's word better than almost anyone I know. And yet he still struggles. We see that with Paul. The things I want to do are not the things that I do, the things that I don't want to do. I keep doing those who can save me. What a wretched man am I. Praise God, that the answer is Jesus.

Speaker 3

So good.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I mean, my. Our listeners have heard my story, but it's very similar. And I didn't realize I was mid-30s. I had anger, I had bitterness that was coming out toward my boys and. And that was really directed toward my dad. When I went through that forgiveness journey, which didn't take a day it took years.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

I think it set me free.

Speaker 3

It did set you free.

Speaker 1

And husband they deserve totally. And I was like locked up. And Louis Smedes says in a book generations ago, forgive and forget. When you forgive someone, you set a prisoner free only to realize you're the prisoner. Yeah, absolutely was me. Sounds like you had a similar thing. So now as a mom with that sort of freedom, how has it made you different as a mother?

Speaker 2

Well, there are times that I wonder if my children's childhood is too ideal because their daddy is naturally patient and kind. I am certainly fallible and have had to learn patience and less harshness, which I inherit from my dad. I don't inherit that from my mom. I inherit common sense and no nonsense pragmatism. All that from probably both of them, but particularly from my mom. And I've had to learn to soften things and to recognize when it's a strength and when it's a weakness that I don't want to perpetuate and hand down. But also so someone's be like, wow, you think you're a really good parent, that your kids lives are ideal. I think a little struggle is good, like for our kids to grow up with some sort of adversity in their lives.

Speaker 3

It's your title of your book. Hard is not the same thing as bad. And sometimes when our kids struggle, character.

Speaker 1

Is developed in adversity.

Speaker 2

And I know that was true for me, even when obviously I was still struggling with a lot of character growth. So we talk about things in our household, not delve into all the details, but even now they'll see my dad in an episode and tell me something he said or whatever. And I'm able to say, okay, I understand Zava's struggling, but what was your response?

Speaker 3

How can we be grateful for, yeah, that's good. Instead of just judging. Because I think what in the world what we can do? We stick up for our kids, we become protective, which we need to protect, but we can so judge the other person without thinking, what could my response be?

Speaker 2

Right? And so I started to say that earlier that my mom refused to coddle me. And I think she was probably thinking like, it's not even your life goes similar to mine and it will not have served you well to be coddled, you know, but she would always say, you know, silly example, but homeschool play. The mom picked her daughter. Nepotism. It happens. And of course I wanted the part. She didn't go, you should have gotten that part. You deserved it. You were better that Was not fair. She said, I'm sorry that happened, but dig deep into Jesus. That was always the response. Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 3

I would have been like, that teacher's so wrong.

Speaker 2

She refused.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 2

So I never grew up with this concept that I was owed something. My mom held that way out of the way.

Speaker 3

The entitlement piece.

Speaker 2

Yeah, never. And so giving our kids the opportunity to look at the heart of what's happening, especially their own hearts and being honest about our own hearts. I talk about things that I learned in Ms. For Mama. I have this chapter called the Gentleness Challenge. And after baby number eight, I think my hormones were pretty out of whack, and I was dealing with something called postpartum rage without even knowing there was a name for it.

Speaker 3

I haven't heard that before.

Speaker 2

Well, you know, I think they just name everything now. But, you know, it's basically.

Speaker 3

But we all know what it means, Right?

Speaker 2

And I had gone through periods of irritability, but this was intense, and it wasn't abating. It was like, just annoyed all the time. Harsh words, blame, noticing, faulting, because I felt so justified in it. That's the thing is, in that moment, it feels like the truth.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

Which is why we can never rely on our emotions to speak truth.

Speaker 3

That's true in marriage, too. Parenting, like. Like, they are wrong. That is the truth.

Speaker 2

That's in your head. Yeah. And so it kind of came to a head one day where we were having people over for small group from church. That night, I was lying down for a nap. I had a baby and seven other children, and I had given them their list of things to do. We do this stuff all the time. It's like. And I came down, and the first thing I saw on the stairs was the thing that I had asked them to move and that, you know, that was it. And I am just. I asked you to do this. You didn't do it. Well, this is disrespectful. I'm ranting at them, you know, and my husband, who has been through the postpartum with me at a time or two at this point, is recognizing, like, she's struggling. And so, so, so kindly, he sat me down. He said, I know that that was hard. And, like, you have people coming over and you're stressed and you're not getting a lot of stuff. Sleep, and you have a lot in your life. But they didn't do that on purpose. They're just kids. We can practice again later. And it was all stuff that I was like, he's right. He's right, he's right, he's right. But I. I already knew that. Like, that's what the Holy Spirit is telling me while my flesh is saying, you are justified to lose it on your kids. And of course, the shame that immediately follows when you know you've overreacted just crushes you. But you get in a cycle that you feel like you cannot get out. And so he said, I'm praying for you. We need to pray together, but we need to work on this. Which was so kind of him to say, because he wasn't the one struggling with this, but he was willing to be in it with me and not condemn me, which is so kind and so needed in marriage. And so I think it was that day or the next day, I just had this idea just uploaded into my brain. It wasn't from me. It was literally from the Lord. And it was like, you're going to do a challenge with your family for 30 days and you're going to tell them you're doing it where you will speak only kind words or you will keep your mouth shut. You will memorize scripture on the topic together as a family, and you will ask for the Lord's help and their help to keep you accountable. And when you mess up, you will apologize immediately and repent. And so for 30 days, with my kids help and my oldest son, who is critical by nature because his parents are critical by nature, and he's the firstborn, you know, and he's the rule follower and the responsible one, he was noticing everything. And I could tell I was. He was keeping his mouth shut, but he was starting to resent me because I was not. I was consistently not reacting to adversity with kindness or.

Speaker 3

You just hard on everybody.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And sometimes it was as simple as, like, get a snack, Abby. Come on. You just. Your glycemic index is not good at the moment. You know, get some calories in. You combat the physiological aspects. So for 30 days, I worked on this.

Speaker 3

Okay, wait, so you bring the whole family in?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

You say, hey, I can. Guys, here's what's happening.

Speaker 2

And acknowledge that I was doing wrong. Yes.

Speaker 3

So you're admitting you're kind of confessing? Yes, Like, I had to really.

Speaker 2

I kind of. Definitely.

Speaker 3

I have struggled with this. You've probably noticed. Absolutely. Noticed. So here's what I'm doing. And what was their response when you said that?

Speaker 2

They were so kind. I mean, a lot of them were. My oldest son was 12, and he was like. You could tell. He was like, okay, I'm holding you to it. Not in a mean way, but like, you told me to. I'm gonna do it. And he did. And there were times I literally was, like, like, huge breath to be. Like, what in the world, guys, you know, not to do this. Like, what are you doing? Which. Okay, I don't think that that is actually uncalled for.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 2

But, like, in a. In a not kind way.

Speaker 3

And it can just be the tone.

Speaker 2

Yes. Cutting tone.

Speaker 3

If you say, what are you guys doing? Instead of, what are you doing?

Speaker 2

Why are you doing that? Yeah, come on.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

You know better. You know, that kind of thing. I would take a deep breath, and my son would look at me from across the room, and I would close my mouth and walk outside. Cause that's all I had. I didn't have anything kind to say. I just had to, like, walk up and down our porch and go, lord, help. Lord, help. Lord, help. Like, I am not any good at this. The fascinating thing that happened was that in the process of training myself to delay speech so that I had time to choose better words, my hormones got better.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 2

I kid you not. I mean, I didn't have them tested, but you can tell. Yes. The buzzing in my brain, the pressure in my chest, the brain fog, and, like, unable to find words except for the mean words, the immediate, like, you know, quicksilver, anger, all those things started to reside. And I'm saying thing quickly, so it's.

Speaker 3

Almost like it's a neuro. Yeah. The neuropathways change. But also, even that changed all your chemistry in your body.

Speaker 2

Right. And we are getting basically a negative dopamine hit. Like, we're getting a dopamine hit of negativity. When anger becomes very addictive, like, you shoot up, and then you regret it afterwards, but in the moment, it feels almost good.

Speaker 3

It's a cycle.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And so as. As my kids and the Lord's word, we memorized Ephesians 4. That was one of the chapters we memorized together. Be completely humble and gentle, bearing with one another, and let no unwholesome talk come out of your mouth. Don't go to bed angry. Don't give the devil a foothold. Like, it's so full.

Speaker 3

Well, you did a lot of that chapter.

Speaker 1

Speak the truth in love.

Speaker 2

Speak the truth in love. Yes. And only speak what's edifying to those that hear it. And it was so convicting. And it was convicting my kids, too, because what am I doing? I'm setting an example for them to treat others through.

Speaker 3

I Mean, they won't forget that. Especially your 12 year old. He'll remember that as a father.

Speaker 2

Yeah. I remember years later he said something and he's very respectful in the way that he says it, but he was upset at me about something. I can't remember what it was, but I think I had said something just really quickly, like sharply. And I was like, I'm sorry about that, Bud. But I could tell he was kind of still frustrated with me. And at a certain point I just kind of looked at him and I said, bud, I have confessed and repented. It is your job to forgive. Like, at this point, I'm not going to do it perfectly in every instance, but you're going to have to have some grace because you're going to want some grace. You know, like. Like be careful about holding. And I was speaking from personal experience and I've told him that, that I was. So when I talk about forgiving my dad, like my kids read this book someday. They've already heard it from me.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

They know that it was a struggle.

Speaker 3

Well, and I think too, I think, as moms, because I think with the book that we just had come out about how to speak. It's. What's it called again?

Speaker 1

Are you kidding me?

Speaker 3

I was gonna say how to speak the truth and laugh.

Speaker 1

How to speak life to truth, when all you want to do is yell at him.

Speaker 3

You guys edit that out.

Speaker 2

I know. They're not going to.

Speaker 1

We're gonna keep that one in for sure. She doesn't know the title of her own book.

Speaker 2

You do, though. It's an important title.

Speaker 3

But. But I think when God stopped me, because as moms, we're so quick, we respond, we react. That's just part of being a mom, to protect them. But we're also training them continually, our kids. And that can bleed into our husbands and how we talk to our husbands and to anybody.

Speaker 2

There is a cultural trend to treat husbands as another child. And it is so wrong, so disrespectful. Biblical.

Speaker 3

Yes, yes. And so even.

Speaker 1

And we feel it.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I know you do. And I think that's why I wrote about it. But when I felt like. And I'm such a verbal processor, I think it, I say it. And so for God to say to me, just take it. Just here is what I had to ask. Should I say it?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Instead of saying it immediately, should I say it? And I wanted to say it. I wanted and thought it would be so helpful. And it's not a lot of times.

Speaker 2

Or a zinger and that's what you did.

Speaker 3

You walked out the door. You've just prayed, lord, help me, Lord, help me. Because you wanna say it.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And if there's anybody listening, that's. You're like, can I do that, too? I actually did it as a Instagram challenge, and immediately thousands of women showed up, which. What does that tell you?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

This is not an isolated thing at all. Moms have a lot of pressure on them every single day, and one of the areas that it leaks out is anger. And then people wanted a resource, and I was just overwhelmed at the time. I was like, I don't have time to do this. But we decided to include it as a resource that you could access in my first book. And then people were like, that's not enough. I don't want just a chapter. So there's actually an ebook on my site, msrama.net, that you can walk through 30 days. So there's a focus each day. There's a scripture, there's a reminder. It's very short. You could do it in five minutes. You could get your kids and husband to do it with you. But if you don't know where to start and feel like that's not my personality, naturally, I wouldn't. My head would. There's a resource now.

Speaker 1

Where do they find that?

Speaker 2

Ms.4mama.net under my shop tab at the top.

Speaker 1

All right, we'll put that in the show notes and a link to this book in the show notes as well. Familylifetoday.com Let me ask you this. You didn't use the word guilt, but do all moms carry mom guilt?

Speaker 2

I think so, actually. So my first book, Evans for Mama, I wrote basically as a response to the FAQs that I get on a weekly Q and A called what do you Want to know Wednesday? That I do on my social media. And I realized as I was. I started to say this a while back, but, like, not a dreamer. I'm a pragmatist. The one thing that I always wanted to do was write, write books. But at a certain point on social media, I kind of resigned myself to the fact that I have too many kids and too much going on to actually ever get a book out. And then Harvest House, my publisher, approached me and offered me this book deal. And at that point, I realized something amazing. One of my biggest intimidating things was, how do you do research for a book when you, like, all your time is taken? And I realized I was doing this. What do youo Want to Know Wednesday Market Research every single week.

Speaker 3

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2

I knew exactly what moms needed to hear. I knew exactly what the culture was telling them and what they were struggling with. And I knew exactly where I needed to go to find the truth in God's word. And so one of the big things is questions about mom. Mom guilt. The self care thing was another one, which is why I wrote a chapter that Birds and the bees. Another one. It's just the ones that I get asked every single week. I mean, I get 500 questions a week. And sometimes it's. There's just a theme, you know, like 10 people ask the same thing. And so one of them was mom guilt. And so I wrote a chapter called mom guilt and then overcoming it when you're recognizing the difference between it and holy spirit conviction.

Speaker 3

Yeah, talk about that. What's that mean?

Speaker 2

Yeah. So our culture basically tells us any guilt that we experience is a result of some sort of external force. The patriarchy, your mother's expectations, you know, like the society that requires too much of you and you shouldn't even be trying to perform to their standards, which is true. God is our standard. But sometimes God calls us to something higher than society that's even harder. So, you know, I'm not saying that's an easy pass by any stretch. And so there are times when we find ourselves, especially with the comparison trap, which was another one that I get asked about constantly looking over here and feeling guilty that I haven't had this garden done. Right. The Lord hasn't actually specifically called me to work on a garden. Right. Like that's not. In fact, my sister in law would say, I'm building the garden so you don't have to because you can have what I have.

Speaker 3

That's sweet.

Speaker 2

Isn't that amazing?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And so, and then I'm right now called to do things that take my time, like coming to see you guys while my husband is home and my kids all work together to hold the fort. My sister in law's like, I'm not gonna go fly to Florida. I'm not doing that. You know, so don't take on guilt from something that you, quote, are supposed to be doing that you just decided by looking at someone else or someone else told you you were supp. Be doing. But it wasn't from the Lord. So that's. There's that, but then there's that still small voice that is poking your ribs about being bitter or losing your temper or the fact that, I'll give this example, Someone, someone I follow on social media It's a young mom with four children, talked about the fact that she got convicted, that she was putting her kids on a show to cook dinner every night because it gave her freedom to get things done in peace and to get them done efficiently and more quickly. And then she realized, shoot, I just projected this 10 years down the road. And the message I'm sending my kids is, mom does things while you're entertained. But that's not actually the family culture that I want. So the conviction was, bring your kids in even when it's hard. And I am fully behind this. This is what we do. And I have my twin girls. My first set. This is like the coolest full circle moment.

Speaker 3

How old are they now?

Speaker 2

They're only 12. So it's one of many I'm sure I will experience. So the hardest toddlers, the most pull your hair out, like nonsensical emotional histrionics ever. They are actually releasing a baking book in 2026. Because in four years ago, when they're twin brothers, which, by the way, they're all born on the same calendar day. Did you know that?

Speaker 3

No. What?

Speaker 1

Really?

Speaker 2

Both of my sets of twins are born on September, 28 years apart.

Speaker 3

Come on, this is such a God thing.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it really is. And so when the babies were little bitty, they wanted to start baking on Saturday mornings. And I was like, you've got to be kidding me. Like. Cause you're eight and you're no good. Like, you can't bake.

Speaker 3

It's so hard to bake without us ages.

Speaker 2

Yeah, so. And they wanted to do it every Saturday morning, which was one of the few days when I could go back to bed for a couple of hours after being up sometimes like 10 times a night. And I was like, lord, I don't wanna say no. But there was this conviction that I was supposed to. Little did I know they would get offered an actual legit publishing deal because they've been baking for four years. And my publisher was like, there's a hole in the tween baking market and do you girls wanna do it? And I was like, yes, we do. So this you just don't know. I mean, you can't guarantee that outcome, of course, but you just don't know what your faithfulness to do those things that the Holy Spirit is actually convicting you to do and to change the and to be a chain breaker can reap in benefits later. It's Galatians 6. 9. Don't Grow Weary of doing good, for in the proper time you will reap a harvest. And the clincher of it all is if you do not give up.

Speaker 3

That's good. So that guilt piece, let's say did you ever go to bed at night, put your head on the pillow and just recant because she did some of the negative things you said? Yeah, 100%. What? Like as you're talking to all these women, women having that mom guilt, what were your tips?

Speaker 2

So one, God's mercies are new every morning. And if we don't live like that, we are literally shoveling away God's goodness with both hands while he's pouring it into our laps. Why would we ever do that? So rather than making that trite wake up and say, what do I need to actually repent to my kids of verbally today?

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

Maybe not an 18 month old. They may not understand, like, mom is so sorry that you. And they're like, just feed me please. You know, but you can repent to the Lord and as much as you need to, to like the face to face people and then make it your goal to work on that specific thing as opposed to just simply wallowing in guilt. The Lord has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power, and a sound mind. That means that we are given bright and logical minds as parents to say, okay, here's the problem. I'm gonna solve this. In the Lord's strength. We are more than overcomers. We are not victims.

Speaker 3

I think that's really good. And also take your thoughts captive. Cause if you already confessed it, repented, it's done.

Speaker 2

Yes, Satan at that point, Satan's the one. I tell my kids all the time. Condemnation is from Satan, conviction is from the Holy Spirit. And you will recognize the difference when one keeps you stuck in self loathing and the other gives you the motivation to ask the Lord how to change.

Speaker 3

And as moms, it can feel justified. Like, I deserve to wallow. No, you don't. Jesus died for that. And we don't have to wallow if we've already done the business. We've apologized to our kids, we've confessed, we have like, okay, here's what I'm gonna do different. That's it, it's done. And I think Satan steals our joy when we wallow in it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 1

Okay, I gotta ask you one other section. Section in our book about parenting. We said we love the teenage years. Yes, we loved them.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

And so many parents, like, how many.

Speaker 3

Teens do you have right now?

Speaker 2

I have three and we'll have five as a You know what I think? I think maybe this. When this, when this comes out, I will have five. Yes. Wow. Yep. Which is the most. I've done the math. It's the most I'll ever have. Like, I'm in space. So that I will have five multiple times, but I will never have six. Teenagers.

Speaker 3

Okay, so what do you think of it?

Speaker 1

Why?

Speaker 2

I love it. I think that they are the coolest human beings.

Speaker 3

They're fascinating.

Speaker 2

Genuinely. They are so much fun. Are they knuckleheads? Sometimes, yes. But so am I. I mean, to classify an entire stage as untenable or to, like, pass over it because we're just gonna get through the fog, or to make these dire predictions, people will ask, well, what are you gonna do when your child does? And I say to them, I am not going to assume. I'm not saying it won't happen. I'm not gonna say it can't happen.

Speaker 3

But you're not gonna think the worst.

Speaker 2

No, I'm not going to. I will prepare my mind in such a way that I can take things captive to the lordship of Jesus Christ, that I can be prepared to speak words of life rather than screaming and yelling and losing it. That I can know God's ways so that I can put those guardrails up and know when that's needed and when that needs to loosen up some. So absolutely don't be willy nilly as you. As you go through parenting, but to, like, put one hand over your eyes and look through your fingers in dread of what's surely coming. And it may not ever come in the way they tell you it will. Like, you'll have wasted so much time. And the Bible is really clear that we are called not to be anxious about tomorrow. And that would include the stages in tomorrow that we haven't gotten to yet.

Speaker 3

What about the parents that are just like, oh, it's so hard. They're so rebellious. They speak. So they speak without any kind of honor or respect. I don't know what to do. And I think sometimes it feels like teens are pushing away and parents just let them instead of pursuing them.

Speaker 2

Yes. And I think you, you answered your own question. You're the father and the prodigal son. You do not ever stop loving them while also holding them accountable for right and wrong. And the ability to physically do that wanes as they get bigger than you and as they get to be legal adult. Our legal adult son still lives at home and is very honoring of our house rules, but I mean, literally still comes home at a curfew even though he could stay out till two in the morning and we wouldn't legally be able to do anything about it. But he has no interest in doing so. Still enjoys being around his siblings. Part of it's his personality, part of it's the family cultural, part of it is the grace of God, you know. But for those who are already like, let's say I get messages from people that are Talking about their 17 year old son screaming curse words at them, you don't have the same recourses that you do when they were three, you just don't. And part of that may be because you didn't take advantage of those or weren't able to. Maybe you're a single parent or you had to share custody or you just know what you know now. You know you hadn't grown in the Lord, things like that. But it is never too late to turn a corner, to turn over a new leaf. I'm used all the cliches and to say I will be faithful now to teach you God's word as you lie, sit, walk and stand as I lie, sit, walk and stand with you. And I can't make you accept it. I can't change your behavior. I can't. Because we can change some behavior and make there be some acceptance. When they're doing 2, 5, 7, they are under our authority and we can say you will not go to this, we're not going to participate in that, we're going to turn that off. We have that ability and I think that's part of our jobs as parents to exercise that wisely. And with a teen, especially an older teen, you're losing some of that ability. But if you can maintain that connection that they never doubt that you love them, that you want the best for them, that you love God first and then you love them. There's no outcome guarantee but I guarantee you that you will be changed as a result of being faithful in that.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's really good. And I love this book Abby. Like it's beautifully written. The COVID is beautiful, even the setup of it. At the end of each chapter you have the narrative the world's response to hard.

Speaker 1

I like the dad thought, that's really good.

Speaker 3

I do too because we did that in ours too and I think it's good to get the man's perspective.

Speaker 2

Yeah. After I wrote Ms. Rama everybody asked me where D is for daddy was and I was talking to you off air before we started about how I don't think there's too many men that would appreciate a book called D is for Daddy. My husband's like, oh, that's. He's like, I don't feel ew about Emma's for Mom. I feel ew about D is for daddy.

Speaker 1

He is right.

Speaker 2

Yeah. You get handed that. Oh, yeah, 100%. You can handle that. And the dude's like, this is no. Just no kind of thing. But I had been asked so many times. I was like, sean, you really need to contribute to the end of this. And he. He's got so much wisdom. He's good with words, and he's just someone that I want everybody to meet and love as much as I do. And so I was so glad he got to do that.

Speaker 3

That's cool. But I love that you have a Christian response to hard, and then you have action steps, questions, and a prayer.

Speaker 2

I feel like, as moms, one of the things that's really hard to do with as many distractions that we have, even with short chapters like these, is to be like, what did I just read?

Speaker 3

Yeah, now what I do.

Speaker 2

Yeah, now what do I do? Exactly. We need that. That clear direction and the kind of condensing it down to its essentials.

Speaker 3

I love it.

Speaker 1

Well, we're gonna have you back to talk about. A book's coming out right around now. You bet your stretch marks. I just wanted to say it again.

Speaker 2

Did you feel uncomfortable saying that every.

Speaker 3

Woman is like, oh, yeah, I know what that is.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I know what that is. And all the dudes look at me.

Speaker 1

Like, I was just gonna ask, what's that about? I guess you guys already know.

Speaker 2

So. So, I mean, physically speaking, interestingly enough, I've had 10 children, and I don't have any physical stretch marks from having children. I think it's just like, a genetic.

Speaker 3

Thing, even with those two sets of twins, right?

Speaker 2

Yes. So strange. I'm as surprised as anybody. But I will tell you where I do have stretch marks on my soul, on my character, on my personality, on my ability to be patient through hard things. So you Bet your Stretch Marks is essentially the culmination of the trilogy that it started with. Emma's first Mama, Continue with Heart is not the same thing as bad, and ends with this encouragement that is like a resounding exclamation point answer to okay, I did all this. Is it worth it? You bet your stretch marks. And it comes back around to, why not because of what it produces in them. Although I do think that there will be effects with faithful parenting. I do think the Lord will bring a harvest and produce fruit in them.

Speaker 1

And he is able to do that.

Speaker 2

It's. It's what it makes in you. Because it is worth it if we are faithfully following God, no matter what the results are in. Anybody else?

Speaker 3

Yes. Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button, and we'd.

Speaker 1

Like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the words subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this word.

Speaker 3

I can say subscribe.

Speaker 2

Look at that.

Speaker 1

You say it so easy. Subscribe. There he goes.