FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

The beginning of Ephesians 2 talks about how you can follow the ways of the world. A lot of the tables that you are fighting for, you want to seat there because you believe it's going to bring you life.

Well, guess what? That table is probably following the way of the world.

What I'm learning is if I'm fighting for a seat at the table, even if it's a good thing, it might be an idol for me.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

So we have Heather Holloman back in the studio. It's been a while.

Speaker 1

It has.

Speaker 3

From the Penn State Nittany Lions.

Speaker 1

That's right.

Speaker 3

You know, we're big 10 people over in Michigan.

Speaker 1

You know, I'm a Michigan grad. My PhD's from Michigan.

Speaker 3

Yeah, but you can't be a Wolverine.

Speaker 1

Did you hear that? No.

Speaker 2

She just dropped the PhD.

Speaker 1

I did.

Speaker 2

I love it.

Speaker 1

I didn't say that. No, I'm a huge Penn State fan. I mean, a huge. I have season basketball tickets. I follow all the players. I love Penn State, so. I'm sorry. So you've become a traitor. It's not going well, Liz. It. I'm a traitor? Yeah.

Speaker 2

That's okay, because you know what? We're secretly Ohio State fans. That's even worse because we grew up in Ohio State.

Speaker 3

You can't say it. In Michigan, you literally can't say it.

Speaker 1

I'm actually glad that you're Ohio State fans. That's fun. Cause it's a fun. I love Ohio State, the community. It reminds me a lot of Penn State. Just the love the students have for their school.

And God's doing a lot on that campus. I love following what's happening at Ohio State. The revivals.

Yeah. So we can both be enemies. I mean, Michigan can be our enemy here.

Speaker 3

Yeah, we can. Big Ten is good.

Speaker 2

What's your doctorate in?

Speaker 1

English Literature. And I focused on shame, actually, in 19th century literature.

So you'll see that those themes come out a lot in my writing, which is how to help people recover from shame. A lot of my characters deal with shame.

Yeah. Now you know where to go.

Speaker 3

Are we going there already? I want to talk about my PhD.

Speaker 1

I know.

Speaker 3

Let's go. I didn't get one.

Speaker 2

But if you're talking about shame, you've dealt with shame.

Speaker 1

Yes. Yes.

Speaker 2

So take us back to that.

Speaker 1

Well, what fascinates me about shame is it's one of the most tormenting emotions a human can experience. And it's kind of where Satan wants us to live. Shame is like, "I'm a bad person. Everyone thinks I'm a bad person."

I remembered being in grad school and really struggling with the idea that even though I was forgiven of sin, I couldn't experience it myself. I just kind of walked around in shame. I had to quit. You know, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, but I just always felt like I wasn't living up to things.

It's a tormenting sense of inferiority. That's what shame is. So I decided to really study it. How do people recover from shame?

Speaker 3

Hey, wait, wait. I gotta stop you.

Speaker 1

Are you feeling tormenting inferiority?

Speaker 3

No, I mean that definition.

Speaker 1

Yeah. It's tormenting inferiority. Yeah.

Speaker 3

I've never heard it. Cause it's tormenting. It doesn't stop. Plagues you. It hammers you, right?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

I feel like it bleeds into every area of your life.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And you want to hide. That's how you know it appears in the garden. Adam and Eve want to hide.

Speaker 2

I don't think you've ever seen.

Speaker 3

Why are you poking me?

Speaker 2

Because I don't.

Speaker 3

You just poked me.

Speaker 2

I don't think that you've really dealt with shame.

Speaker 3

I wonder if I've covered it up so. So well, maybe with success on. On a football field and that kind of thing. That it's really a cover up that. I don't know.

Speaker 2

Do we all deal with it?

Speaker 1

Well, shame and narcissism are two sides.

Speaker 3

Oh, now you're saying I'm a narcissist.

Speaker 1

No, no, no. It's an.

Speaker 3

It's funn really going well. How about I leave it YouTube time?

Speaker 1

Can we start over? Can we go all the way back and start over? No.

I was also interested in that too. Like either. Like an excessive focus on yourself.

So they're both the same thing. You're excessively focused on yourself and how other people are perceiving.

You're right. And it's both.

Speaker 2

Do that.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And you become enslaved to yourself and the opinions of others. So what I love about when you have Jesus in your life, he can heal you from both conditions.

And when you're in a community that loves you and knows everything you've done and still accepts you, you can really experience freedom from shame.

Yeah. I love how Tim Keller said it in one of his sermons that when you feel ashamed and Satan's accusing you, you say, "You're right. I owe that charge to Jesus's account."

And then you can even say to Satan, "I'm even worse than you can imagine. I'm actually worse than you can imagine; Jesus paid for it." He says, "Charge it to Jesus's account. He will pay what I owe."

I heard that in a sermon when I was at the gym, and I just started crying about the freedom of the gospel all over again.

Speaker 2

So as you studied it, were you helped to be set free?

Speaker 1

Well, yes, because I was fascinated by. Paul writes about the difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow. And I didn't know what that meant. He's talking about shame. Godly sorrow is, I'm guilty. Will you cover my sin? And Jesus says, yes, absolutely. Your sin is covered.

Worldly sorrow is, I'm terrible, there's no remedy. I'm going to walk around and be sorrowful my whole life. Because you live in shame, which is not, I've done a bad thing, but it's, I'm a bad person.

Yeah, it's deep. You guys are going deep. There's a whole psycho. You can study the psychology of shame and guilt and there's all kinds of different words people talk about with it.

Speaker 2

So I think I was 7 years old after I had been abused by several different people sexually. And I remember being seven and saying to myself, I can actually see where I was when I thought there must be something wrong with me.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you internalize shame. Yes, that's right.

Speaker 2

And so it's, I'm broken. The people aren't wrong. It must be me.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

So do most of us have something like that that's happened in our lives, that we've internalized it?

Speaker 1

Most people do. Children especially, right around the age that I care most about, the 8 to 12 year old, are writing for middle grade, writing for children.

Yeah, they do get a sense like something's wrong with me, something's not right, I'm bad, I feel ashamed. A lot of the characters I write about deal with that.

And that's why I love when it says that God sees us and loves us and he understands our heart better than we do. I just love inviting children to know Jesus like that and begin to heal those parts of them that just are carrying shame.

Speaker 2

I mean, this is gonna be kind of a deeper question, but you deal with that age group.

Speaker 3

We've already gone super deep. We're five minutes in and boom.

Speaker 2

Has happened in a child's life around that age that they're feeling that the significance of shame in their lives. I mean, that's scary. As a parent listening or a grandparent, it's like, wait, can I help my child or grandchild escape that?

Speaker 1

Well, what's difficult about this conversation is that it's not necessarily about traumatic events. It could be anything; it could be not having a seat at the lunch table. I care a lot about those little moments, or if a friend rejects you, or if you're rejected by someone at school, or even if you get a really bad grade. These are things that little kids internalize, and they don't have the language to talk about it. They don't even know the words to use. Often, they want to hide. They don't want to talk about it; they hide alone in their bedroom.

I have a character who does that. She doesn't know what to do, and finally, she opens up to an older friend for help. She begins to read her Bible for the first time. So yes, little children can experience these feelings. There are obviously a lot of things that can affect them, such as marriages that aren't stable, divorce, or children experiencing those kinds of situations.

Don't forget things like the loss of a pet—situations where they're carrying grief and they wonder, "Am I a bad person? Did I do something wrong that God would let this happen to me?" All those thoughts can swirl in a 12-year-old's mind.

Speaker 2

That's so sad because as a parent, if you're listening and you're a parent, you might have a child that expresses all of that.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 2

But you also might have a child that's very inward in their processing and you're trying to pull it out and you can't even get it to come out.

Speaker 3

Yeah. How do you as a parent see it? How do you. I mean, we gotta be experts and we gotta be watching as parents. We've got to move.

Speaker 2

You get her books, that's what you do.

Speaker 1

Well, it's hard; it's hard to see a couple of things, and of course, I'm not an expert in the therapeutic world.

But one thing I would say, based on my own life experiences, is that you're looking for things like changes in personality, changes in appetite, and changes in school performance.

Speaker 2

Withdrawing.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Sleeping too much, being withdrawn. But that's why I love the power of storytelling. Because you can have a child read a book where shame is happening to another character and then suddenly you can talk about it.

And I love what story does, like just how Jesus taught in parables. There's something really powerful about having a little girl read a book where that character can't find a seat at the lunchroom, and she goes home and cries and doesn't know what to do.

Suddenly, you have a great conversation with your child about that. So that's one of the reasons I was motivated to write stories for little kids.

Speaker 3

How many have you written? This is. We're looking at the disappearing seat.

Speaker 1

Yes. And there's gonna be four in the series. The first book is called *This Seat Saved*, and it's about that moment in middle school when you realize you're not popular.

Although, Dave, were you popular in middle school? Were you? I feel like you were.

Speaker 2

Was the man. Yes, very.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And I think it was a cover up.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

You know, I was the musician. I was a lead singer in a band, flipping my hair around, thinking I'm really cool.

Speaker 1

In middle school, even.

Speaker 3

That's when we started the day the Daydreamers. And my mom made me have a. What do you call it? Nehru Nu jacket. And everybody else had T shirts. And everybody's like, why does he get the.

Speaker 1

Because you were the lead.

Speaker 3

I was the whatever. But, yeah, and then, yeah, I was on the basketball court, football field, baseball field. So I always felt that. Yeah, I felt like I was always this. I'm a narcissist. That's what I am.

Speaker 1

Well, popularity. No, popularity is a resource to be used, and it puts a lot of pressure.

I do have a popular character in the series, and she deals with that, what it means to be popular and how hard it is for her.

So there's a lot to talk about there too.

Speaker 2

But I think as I've looked, as I've read these books, each character is somebody that you know or you've met in school, you know, so you have all the different types of kids in the school.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 2

And even to read it as a middle schooler, you're gonna identify with one of those.

Speaker 1

Right. And a lot of readers do that. They'll. They'll send little notes and they'll say, oh, I wasn't like your main character, Alita. I was more like the popular girl, Margot. Or I'm more like the boy Steven or something like that.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Well, how. Tell us, like, why is this so important? Because when we interviewed you before, I feel like you have a theme. Heather.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

From Ephesians 2.

Speaker 1

Ephesians 2 is the. If you're gonna memorize one chapter in the entire Bible, if it's not Romans 8, it's gotta be Ephesians 2, 1, 10. Everything you need to know to survive your life and to know Jesus is Ephesians 2, 1, 10. And God.

Speaker 3

Do you have the whole thing? Memories?

Speaker 1

Well, I think I do. Do you want to say it with me? I don't have notes here, people.

It starts as for you. You were dead in your transgressions and sins in which you used to live, in which you followed the ways of the world, the kingdom of the air, who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

All of us lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature. And then is the next one that we were objects deserving of wrath and.

Speaker 3

Following his desires and thoughts like the rest, we were deserving of wrath. And then it says, uesv. What are you reading here?

Speaker 1

I think that's niv.

Speaker 2

What do you have?

Speaker 3

I have Niv, and it's close. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Okay. But the best part is Ephesians 2:6. And, well, the verse before it says, but because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive in Christ. And then that's the part that talks about, you know, it's by grace you've been saved.

But it says, and God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms, in Christ Jesus. And I realized when I read that verse that Jesus was inviting me here. I had a seat at the greatest table with the greatest king, but I was living a life where I was fighting for a seat at the table that I thought would make my life important.

And now that I'm almost 50 years old, I realize I can apply that verse every day.

Speaker 2

Every day.

Speaker 1

Every day I enter a room, maybe I'm at a table I shouldn't be sitting at in my life. Maybe I'm at a table where I'm getting older. I need to let other people sit at that table. I need to leave and go to a different table. You know, what table am I believing that's where life is gonna be?

So I wrote *Seated with Christ for Adults*. And then my publisher was the one that said, you know, so many moms read this book and they want this message for their little girls. That's why I wrote *Young Adult*. Well, it's actually middle grade for 8 to 12 year olds. I wanted to prepare them for that moment in middle school where the wound begins, where you realize you don't have a seat at the table with the.

Speaker 2

Popular girls, or it's a disappearing seat.

Speaker 1

Or it's a disappearing seat.

So the second book is called "The Disappearing Seat" because my character Alida learns she is seated at the best table with Jesus. She has a real encounter with the Lord.

But then what happens when you think everyone else has a better life than you do, and they get all the blessings from God?

Speaker 2

And your blessings have disappeared, and everybody experiences that.

Speaker 1

Even me, you know, 50 years old, I'm like, wait, so it's really about jealousy. So this book follows the part of the Seated With Christ adult book that's really about the idea that you have access to all the riches of God's kingdom. You don't really need to worry about being wealthy or that pursuit of wealth the way a lot of people do.

I wanted my character to realize kind of the secret to overcoming jealousy. We talk in the book about savoring your life, which is deeply rooted in the social science research of gratitude and being positive about your life. So I put all that in there for little girls to start being grateful for the things God's given them.

Speaker 2

I know it's for little girls, but can I just admit that on the plane last night, I read one of them, the whole thing, and I cried because it relates to all of us, every single person.

Speaker 3

She does not cry much. Wow, that means you touch.

Speaker 1

I do.

Speaker 2

With good books and a good movie, though.

Speaker 3

Yeah, so do I.

Speaker 1

Well, I see.

Speaker 3

I even read it.

Speaker 1

Oh.

Speaker 3

And I gotta tell you, I'm like, I'm reading a middle school girl book.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

And it was awesome. Theologically, you're such a great writer and all the themes were coming through. I'm like, this is the kind of book parents should be discussing and reading with their kids.

Speaker 1

I hope so. My dream for little girls and their moms and boys read it, too. Just so you know, a lot of boy readers, they even love the journaling part, which some people think, oh, is this just for little girls?

Speaker 2

It's not a girly girl.

Speaker 1

I mean, she loves nature. There's a lot of science in there.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

But she. She develops a journaling practice, which I think is so supported by all the mental health research.

If you can get young kids to even write down five things they're thankful for, five things they need from God each day because they carry so much anxiety.

So if you say to a child, which we've been doing with my girls, really, almost their whole life, how old.

Speaker 2

Are your girls now?

Speaker 1

Well, now I know, Ann, one is 24 and one just turned 20, so.

Speaker 2

But you've done. That's what I mean.

Speaker 1

We've done it for decades.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

So five things you're thankful for, five things you need, you need from God.

Speaker 1

And it comes out of Psalm 53 where David says, in the morning, O Lord, you hear my voice; in the morning, I lay my requests before you and wait in expectation. Is that not the best thing? So good.

So you can say to a child, I know you've got a lot on your mind. And it's not a diary. Nobody's writing paragraphs. It's write down the five things you want to trust God for today. And then they start.

I call it unburdening—all those things they're worried about. Because doesn't the word say, like, cast your cares upon him; he daily bears our burdens?

Speaker 2

I mean, part of that confession, when you confess something, you're telling the truth.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I love that.

Speaker 2

So in this you're telling God, it's not the repentance part, it's telling God the truth.

Speaker 3

Well, I was thinking, let's do it right now. What do you mean five things you're thankful for?

Speaker 1

Okay, five things I'm thankful for.

First of all, the little lizards you guys have here in Florida, number one.

Number two, what is it gonna be like 94 degrees today? I thank the Lord for, because as you know, in Detroit and where I am in State College, we do not get this vitamin D sun situation.

I'm thankful for the delicious coffee, little simple things.

And the reason the Harvard gratitude study says it works, it changes your brain to be great.

Speaker 2

It changes your brain.

Speaker 1

I'm thankful for you guys because I just knew I would be delighted. And the fifth thing I'm thankful for is that my husband Ashley is with me today. He has always been the biggest supporter of my writing, and he's a joy.

So after you write your five things every morning, you write five things you need from God. Anything you need. And then the best part of the journal that I designed for kids, which I use every day, is that you write down five people you're praying for. Why? Because you have a purpose to seek and save the lost, to be a blessing to people.

It helps middle schoolers, who are profoundly self-involved, to take their eyes off themselves and think about other people. How old are your grandkids? How old's the oldest one?

Speaker 2

10.

Speaker 3

Olive is 10.

Speaker 1

Olive, I love this. So 10 year olds reading the book, they begin to think, oh, wait, there are people around me that I could pray for. I could bless them.

And then there's a little section to write down things you're learning from God's word. Now a lot of parents are like, well, can that happen? Yes. I started journaling when I was 12 years old.

And I really believe God began to teach me from the Psalms, even as a 12 year old. I had verses I would memorize and trust God for, even when I was a little girl writing down.

And I still have those journals so I can go back and see the faithfulness of God and the things I was worried about and how he was faithful.

Speaker 2

And our granddaughter Olive has a journal.

Speaker 1

Oh, I love it.

Speaker 2

Really important to her.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

And so even as I was reading your books, I thought, this is so sweet because you're having an example of another girl doing it.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

And then the stickers. And then even when she's praying for people, I'm like, this is so genius. Because these girls, if I read this book, you're giving them practical practices that they could do the rest of their lives.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's simple. Spiritual disciplines. I mean, a lot of people don't journal because I don't know what you were thinking, Dave. Like, when I say, do you keep a journal? You're thinking. You're writing a lot every day. Nobody wants to write all day long. These are little lists that you make and it helps you organize your thoughts.

And the other thing that's important is when God doesn't answer your prayer, when things seem like they've disappeared, what do you do? And so that my character, it's like waiting on God. One of our family mottos is, every rejection is God's protection. So she begins to see, like, well, maybe because God loves me and he's so good to me, I know that he's working for my good, even if my blessings seem to have disappeared.

How do you keep a journal, Dave? Do you? Well, you.

Speaker 3

No, I need to.

Speaker 1

But you probably have to write down a lot of thoughts.

Speaker 3

Probably preaching.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 3

You preach, you're working through the manuscript from the text, but then you're always like, where's my life fit in here? And so you sort of. You unveil your journal to your people as you and you speak all over the country. Same thing you're doing.

Speaker 1

That's a good way to say it. You're unveiling your journal as you preach.

Speaker 3

I've never said that before. You sort of are sometimes very raw.

Speaker 1

Well, I know because you guys, what you. You just preached on Anne. Well, you included Ann's situation with her heart.

Speaker 3

Yeah. It was sort of weird driving in here today, honestly. Did you feel that?

Speaker 2

No.

Speaker 1

Because of so much that has gone on with you all.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it was just like the last time we were here. We went home and Found out she was 99% blocked in her widowmaker artery. I mean, it's a.

Speaker 2

Well, no, it wasn't.

Speaker 3

Well, it was off the widowmaker, but I like to say widowmaker makes it, you know, more. More dramatic.

Speaker 1

Hey, you're a storyteller.

Speaker 3

Get the drama in there, but no driving in. I felt like, wow, that was. It's been a couple weeks, but that moment, I mean, sitting in that hospital.

It's a long story, but, you know, a lot of people that we've talked to since said they went in, they did a catheterization, found the blockage, put the stent in, you went home.

They did the catheterization on Tuesday night, the heart cath. And we didn't get the stent until Friday.

Speaker 2

They had to transfer because we had to.

Speaker 3

Wait, wait, wait, wait. So it's.

Speaker 1

You're in the hospital that whole time?

Speaker 3

Yeah, we had to wait till Friday. It was a long day.

Speaker 1

Did you feel like God sustained you and was with you the whole time? Like, where did. Did you feel close to him? Or was it just panicky the whole time?

Speaker 3

Look at that. She's interviewing us now. I love it.

Speaker 1

Well, I already secretly asked Ann about this, and she was telling me how God used her to kind of talk to people and bless people and encourage them. Did you find that?

I don't know. I'm interested in, like, when bad things happen. I was telling Anne, what if that's not the story? What if you're in this terrible situation because God has a purpose for you?

That. I told Heather it doesn't have to do with what you think it is.

Speaker 2

And I told Heather that was my first thought in the ER as soon as we got there. I'm like, well, I'm here because God has a purpose for me being here. And it's not about me necessarily.

Speaker 3

Man, you are so mature. You're so mature.

Speaker 1

That's what my dream would be for my life. To be able to think. Think that when bad things happen.

Speaker 3

Like, well, God, I was like, why are we here? Yeah, why are we here? This can't be.

Speaker 1

You needed your sit and savor journal. Had you had your journal, you would have made it.

Speaker 3

I would have. While she was back there, I could have written.

Speaker 2

You know, maybe it's a way of avoiding. Maybe that's what I'm doing, avoiding the scariness of it. I didn't. I didn't feel like I was scared, though, until later when we went to.

Speaker 1

So it didn't feel traumatic for you, but you in the waiting room for five days. You're like, I don't know what happening to my life.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And probably more scary for me.

Speaker 1

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 3

Because I'm on the outside looking in like, this could be really bad. We don't know, you know?

And fortunately, the miracle of doctors is wonderful. I mean, the fact they can put a little stent in, and your artery opens up, that's completely blocked.

I preached on it yesterday, and I can't tell you the number of people who came up to me in the lobby. "I've had that. I've had that. I had three stents."

The miracle of modern medicine is beautiful.

Speaker 2

Well, it's funny, the night before this all happened, I was walking and praying and I felt great. I felt perfect, actually. I had a ton of energy.

But I had noticed going up the stairs, I felt a little breathless and a little tightness in my chest, which I've never had. So I was on my walk, probably at 10 o'clock the night before, and praying, "Lord, if something's going on in my heart, will you just heal that?"

Speaker 1

What?

Speaker 3

And so I didn't even know that till just now. That was Monday night.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that was Monday night. And it's so sweet that he hears those prayers and he heals it through our modern medicine.

Speaker 1

He does.

Speaker 3

Because it wasn't until the next evening we interviewed Gary Chapman on Tuesday Five Love Languages. He was phenomenal.

And then that Tuesday night, when you said, "We're going to the ER," Heather, she doesn't even tell me. She goes upstairs, packs a bag, and I'm sitting on the couch watching the NBA playoffs.

Speaker 1

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 3

I go, where are you going? Where am I going?

Speaker 2

I had told you I had that with my heart one day.

Speaker 3

Yeah. But again, she's had a lot of things like that, you know, really is. But I mean, in one sense, as she got to the hospital and we got there, she had that perspective. I'm here.

Speaker 1

That's so amazing.

Speaker 3

Not just for me. Maybe God wants to use me in some ministry. And by the way, that. That when I think of you, that's what I think. I think two words. And maybe this is your life, maybe it isn't. I think seated.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

Which is identity and who we are and everything we talked about with shame. And I think scent.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

You know, and those are also your.

Speaker 1

Books and the name of the ministry that Ash and I are leading. I don't know if you knew that. Our ministry is called Seated and Sent.

Speaker 3

That's it.

Speaker 1

Yep. That's the name of our ministry.

Speaker 2

And we got marketing major right there.

Speaker 1

Well, we're. We're. We. Ash really had a vision. He thought the Lord was like, look, let's use. This is what people need. This is never going to get old. Go and help. Churches and ministry. Go back to the basics of Ephesians 2. That you're seated. And now when you know you're seated, you're then sent in every situation. And then it makes life an adventure for sure.

But do you guys also think it's odd that I don't know if you use this in your message on Sunday, but that something was wrong with Ann's heart and she didn't know it? That's kind of like Ephesians 2. Like, you're dead in your sins and your transgressions. You're walking around, you don't even know how bad it is, right? Until Jesus heals you and makes you alive in Christ.

Speaker 2

That's really good.

Speaker 1

You're walking around almost dead.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I did.

Speaker 2

Is that what you did?

Speaker 1

Tell me what you did.

Speaker 3

No, not yesterday.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 3

Years ago at my former church, we did Easter. And after Easter, you're always trying to create a series or a message that people are gonna come back for.

Cause all these people come on Sunday at Easter, and you're like, "Gotta get them back." So we came up with this idea based on a TV series called The Walking Dead.

Speaker 1

Love it.

Speaker 3

So we call this series the Walking Dead, right? And I'm doing my Easter thing, and I say, hey, by the way, next week we have this graphic. We're gonna do a series called the Walking Dead. You don't wanna miss it.

This lady comes up. Long time. She's in our church a long time. And she's got to be 70 years old maybe. And she goes, you are so pathetic. You gotta grab this cute little, you know, TV series and use that. I'm leaving this church. You've gone too far. The Walking Dead, you know.

Speaker 2

Cause it's a zombie show.

Speaker 3

Because it was a zombie show. I'd never seen a show, but I knew the thing. And I go, if you want to leave, you leave. But please come back next week and then decide to leave. You gotta see what we do. It's not what you think, okay? She goes, okay, I'll give you one more week. And she was all mad. She comes back. And what I did with the Walking Dead was just what you said. I said, we are walking dead. We are dead in our sins. We walk around like we're alive, but we're dead. And here's what the gospel is. And I go to Ephesians 2, the whole thing, and it's all about identity and you can be alive in Christ, blah, blah, blah. She comes up afterwards, she goes, okay, that was awesome. I'm not leaving your church. She goes, I didn't realize. I am the walking dead.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's really good.

Speaker 3

But that's. I mean, that's it. And I tell you what, I have stolen your scent thing a million times. I mean, my. Probably the biggest thing I preach at my church. If people have heard me, they say, this is Wilson's slogan. Make a dent where you're sent. We've said it here many times.

Speaker 1

I love that because it rhymes. I love rhyming things.

Speaker 3

Yeah, they can be where you're sent.

Speaker 2

Tell me where you got it, where.

Speaker 1

You thought of it. It.

Speaker 2

It's the Bible, but it's also.

Speaker 3

No, you won't believe it. I first came. This is so long ago. This will date me when I saw Tommy Boy, the movie.

Speaker 1

Really?

Speaker 3

Do you remember Tommy Boy?

Speaker 1

I do, but it's been a long time.

Speaker 3

Remember, he walks into a glass window and goes, that'll leave a mark.

Speaker 1

Yes. Make a dent where?

Speaker 3

That's what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to leave a mark.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Everywhere we go, we should make an impact. Leave a mark. So make a dent what you're saying, but answer this. Because so many people, when I first started preaching, that they would come up after I think the very first time, because I didn't articulate this part of it. They would say, we know where you're sent. You're a pastor, you're a missionary. You're sent once. We're just lay people. Where am I sent? We don't have a call. I came up with this profound answer. Tell me you are sent where you are, where you are. And that's not profound. It's simple. But I think people don't understand that wherever you are, you're sent as a college professor, it's discovered, just like a plumber or a doctor or a stay at home mom. That is your mission field. Wherever you are is your calling.

Speaker 2

But you can't know the calling until you know your place at the table.

Speaker 1

That's right.

Speaker 2

Understanding your place at the table and who you are.

Speaker 1

No. That's right.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

But the two things people don't understand about living a sent life. Number one, Acts 17, that God has searched out the exact places. It is no accident he has searched out the exact place where you live. Who are your Neighbors. Where do you work? Out at the gym? Who's at the grocery store? Where do you work? If you believe that it is no accident where you live, that's number one. But number two, they think of living a scent life as something you're adding to your schedule. No, it's your identity. When Jesus calls the first disciples, he says, follow me and I will send you out to fish for people and act. Think about John 20:21, as the father has sent me, so I send you. It's this whole identity that people are missing. Acts 1:8. You're going to receive power. When the Holy Spirit comes on you. Once you get people and it says, you'll be my witnesses. Once people realize that it's not something they're doing, that evangelism is who they are, then they, then they begin to look at the world differently and life becomes very exciting and they feel closer to Jesus.

Speaker 2

Why?

Speaker 1

What is Jesus doing? He's seeking and saving the lost. He's building a kingdom for himself. Don't you want to be doing what he's doing? So of course you're going to feel closer to him. If you wake up every day and you're like Jesus, let's go. Who are you sending me to? Help me be an agent of blessing or proclamation. I'm ready. Life is going to open. You're going to feel like life is a supernatural adventure.

Speaker 2

And I think for parents as us to communicate that to our kids is really big because the world's saying be all you can be, you know, so conjure up who you think you could be or want to be. True identity is discover who you are in Christ at the table.

Speaker 1

At the table.

Speaker 2

And so I remember saying to our 6 year old grandson this week, I said, isn't it incredible that there has never been a Bryce Wilson in the world? There's never been somebody like you ever. And there never will be. So God has something so special for you. Aren't you so excited? Like you're living that right now and you're gonna be and do things that no one else has ever done because you're so unique. Why would you ever want to be somebody else? Because there's no. And I used to say to our other grandkids, like, you know, you're a genius just because there's no one like you and never will be ever again in the face of the earth. And so that's where that comparison piece and the jealousy piece is huge. Especially in girls. I think guys do it too, don't they?

Speaker 1

I'M sure.

Speaker 3

I'm sure I'm the only guy at the table.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Tell us about jealousy. No, this girl's jealous of three different things. She's jealous of when other girls get attention because my. Her best friend suddenly gets all the attention from boys there. You know, she's having boys over. The boys seem to like her more. She's jealous of her friend Margot, who is very wealthy, has a beautiful house. And then she's also jealous because other people are doing better in school than she is. So it's really that achievement. Right. You know, am I achieving enough affluence? I call it the three A's. Achievement, affluence, and appearance. Oh, that's good. And you'll see that in the next book is all about her understanding that she's beautiful, even if other people insult the way she looks. It's a book about really, what does it mean to be beautiful?

Speaker 2

I'm so happy you're doing more because as I even finish the second one, I'm thinking, well, we need to know what else.

Speaker 1

What happens? They're cliffhangers. Yes. So you got to get all of them for this.

Speaker 3

I mean, how does a person. Can a person. Here's my question. Can a person live into their sentence? You know, again, from Crew 23, I.

Speaker 1

Think was my sentence when you gave that message.

Speaker 3

And I'm sure you've done it other places, but that's the first time I heard it. And by the way, I'm sitting on my back deck in Michigan. I'm not in the room watching it on a live stream.

Speaker 2

I remember you came in the house and said, you have to listen to this.

Speaker 3

I'm like, you are not doing anything else in the next 40 minutes. We're watching this together again. It was so powerful. But we're talking about shame and sentness or identity. Can you really live into your sentence if you haven't dealt with your shameness? Hey, there it is. Setting this shameness.

Speaker 1

That's good.

Speaker 3

You know what I mean?

Speaker 1

Well, I mean, are you really asking? Can you. Can God use you? Can you do this even if there are parts of you that aren't healed yet? Is that what you're really asking?

Speaker 3

No. I mean, I think we can.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

But there's. Part of me is like, man, if I'm still obsessed with me.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3

And I don't know who I am, and I'm afraid. And again, we all do this. How do I lift my eyes and see others and realize Acts 17 that I'm in A situation that God put me in, and I'm his vessel. I can be sent right now, open my mouth, help somebody, rather than, I'm here, and I can't get over my shame.

Speaker 1

Right? Well, one thing that's encouraged me is the very things that I struggled with most in my life, the things that. Where I carried the most shame is how God uses me the most with people. So if someone's listening and they're like, well, I've done terrible things. I'm such a disappointment. I'm such a failure. Well, the story you're gonna tell, what if that story is because God's gonna send you to heal some people because of the story you're gonna tell about your life or the way you connect with someone based on the things that, you know, the story God's written in your life. But if you think, oh, I could never be used by God because I'm so, you know, I'm nobody, or I'm just a disappointment. I mean, Paul himself, you know, gloried in his weakness because he said, well, the power of Christ rests on me. Like, you're not bringing yourself to people, you're bringing Jesus to people. So you're kind of not even the point of it all. You're just introducing them to Jesus. And the whole time you're like, by the way, I'm a mess. I'm worse than you can imagine. Charge it to Jesus's account. I mean, that's the whole gospel. So. But I do think shame will really get you down. It will really send you into hiding. So just if you think that you've done something terrible, as soon as you bring it into the light with Jesus and with other people, you're gonna find healing. That's what the community of Christ is for. That's what we're all here for.

Speaker 2

Heather, take us back to your journey. Because you did that a little bit when we had you on before. But this idea of shame and things that we've done, you felt like, can God use me and can he see me right? What has your journey been?

Speaker 1

Well, part of it is. Part of it's hard to tell because I have to. You know, I protect. I don't talk a lot about family or different things, but I just had a lot of hard things happen to me right around 12 years old. Just difficult things happening in my family. A lot of loss. I'm also a military daughter, so I had to move a lot. And that's a really hard way to grow up. Where you're moving every two Years saying goodbye to your friends.

Speaker 2

You're finding a table. Every few years, it's a new table at lunch with girls.

Speaker 1

And the important part of my story is that I prayed to receive Christ at that time, but I really had no good discipleship. I didn't understand. The Spirit filled life. So I just operated out of my flesh all the time. So I was doing everything I could to get a seat at the table in those three ways. If only I could achieve more. I gave my life to getting the best grades. I had to go to University of Virginia. I was a national debater. I had to go get the PhD. All of that. I also just really thought the goal in life is to be wealthy, you know, and then appearance, it isn't, you know, trying to be really thin and beautiful. You know, I grew up in a culture where that really matters. Even now in some southern cultures that it's very. The worst thing that can happen to you is to get old, you know, wrinkles or gray hair, whatever. And then just needing a lot of attention, you know, I dated all the time. I thought that life was gonna be romance. That's the answer. And of course, I did things that all college students do at University of Virginia. You know, I was drinking at fraternity parties, dating all kinds of guys. And I was in my dorm room and I was listening to an Amy Grant song, my Father's eyes. And I had my childhood Bible. And I remember getting on my knees and I was reading John 10:10, where Jesus says, I've come that you may have life and have it abundantly. And what I was doing was not life. It was like killing me. And I was so ashamed because I wanted Jesus. But there was part of me that was like, I don't know how to have abundant life. I'm just gonna do all the things. I'm gonna exercise myself to exhaustion to be really thin. I'm gonna date all the boys. I'm gonna be wealthy, you know, terrible. Just. You just start to die inside. So my life turned around really when I got involved with crew as a grad student at University of Michigan. And the difference was honestly understanding the Spirit filled life and how I didn't have to live the Christian life on my own strength. Did you guys find that. That there were some core teachings that you maybe have missed growing up? And then all of a sudden you read a book or someone phrases it the right way. I just didn't understand how to connect with God and have the Holy Spirit empower me to live an impossible life.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Is that what happened to you?

Speaker 2

I remember being in seminary, knowing the Scriptures, understanding who I am in Christ, and it was so theoretical in my head. I kept asking, how do I get it into my heart to believe it?

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 2

Because I understand it right. I understand theologically where I stand in Christ. But why do I still feel so much shame? I can't. That's the part. I just couldn't get them both to work. And that's why I feel like your books, especially to these girls in this age group, it's a discipleship book.

Speaker 1

That's exactly right. Thank you for saying it like that. That's my dream, is to give them little girls what I didn't get.

Speaker 2

It's exactly when you said that, I'm like, well, you're giving it to them now. And isn't it sweet that God's using the loss or the what you didn't have and he just always uses it and redeems it, doesn't he? Now you're being sent to these girls at that same age that didn't get it because the discipleship piece in this, even having somebody like Alida has a.

Speaker 1

Neighbor and a mentor, an older mentor, well, that really mattered to me because I know a lot of children whose parents are maybe mentally ill. The mother isn't able to function the way she should and maybe the dad is an alcoholic or the dad, you know, whatever it is, there are children walking around right now in your neighborhood that do not have what the basic things they need for a stable and secure home. But this is even in the social science research, just the presence of one. Think about teachers, one stable, predictable, positive adult who sees them and speaks life into them is life changing for a child.

Speaker 3

Is that how you feel your job.

Speaker 1

Now as a 50 year old woman?

Speaker 3

Yeah, as a university.

Speaker 1

Well, oh yes, as a university instructor, I really, when those, when you get your classroom of students, you know, you don't know the trauma that's coming into that room. You don't know what their background is. But for at least the 16 weeks that I have them, I'm going to be a certain predictable, joyful presence. And they know I pray blessing over them. They know that I'm a Christian writer and Christian public figure. They will talk to me about their faith. If you know, or if they're searching for God, they'll often talk to me about that. But yeah, I do see myself like that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, what a powerful cry because it's such a powerful position that God has put you in.

Speaker 3

We used to have a little banner in our green room at our church that said never underestimate the pain in the room. Oh, it's just a great reminder because you're walking out there. Jesus. Good. He's awesome. It's like he is. But there's. People had a really hard day or week.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Just understand they are in a lot of pain right now. Maybe they're sitting there and you're talking about marriage and they're, you know, filing for divorce. It's like it's real. Everyone around us is in pain and we get to be sent ones who can remind them of who God is.

Speaker 2

And where he is. And our kids, friends that come over to our house and talk in our lives. I remember we were going on a field trip. I think our son was in the second grade. And so all the kids were saying, I want to be in this car, I want to be in this car. And then they were divvying up where the kids were going. And this one little boy, Timothy was going to be in a certain car. And all the kids in that car said, no, we don't want him. It was like my heart was like shattered for him and you could just see his entire demeanor.

Speaker 1

No, that's so painful.

Speaker 2

So I said, please, can we please have Timmy in our car?

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

So he gets in the car as an 8 year old and I remember reaching back and grabbing him and say, I am thrilled that you're in our car.

Speaker 3

Is this the same Timmy?

Speaker 2

No, it's a different one. But I just said because you're like, I've been around you, I see you and you've got a lot to give. You've got a lot of things you have going for you. And he took my hand and he said, Mrs. Wilson, you can say that, but it is not easy to live it because life is really hard.

Speaker 3

It is.

Speaker 1

How old is he? He was 8. I know it starts. Kids get, they're mean, they're middle schoolers. Like I talked to the 1112 year old girls, they're like, why are girls so mean? Why are boys so mean? So yeah, you don't know what's been said to your child when they walk in the door and you've got snack ready and you say, hey, how was your day? And they don't want to talk about it, you know, you don't know. So to continue to speak life over them and to you know, what you say and what I mean by that is encouraging words, things you see about them, you know, and be specific. Yeah.

Speaker 3

I shouldn't tell the story. But I'm gonna real quick. I did a blessing of the bikes on Saturday.

Speaker 1

A blessing of the bikes?

Speaker 2

Motorcycles.

Speaker 1

No. But I love this.

Speaker 3

Yeah, our church will do this.

Speaker 1

It's like a blessing of the boats.

Speaker 3

Yeah, they do the same thing. And it's a big deal for motorcycle riders. They don't have to be church guys at all. Or women. They want somebody to pray over their bike because it's, you know, anytime you get on a bike, you never know. And so we had one at our church where we pray over every bike and every rider and then we go on a ride. And it was a church I'd never been to. And they say, hey, will you speak for seven minutes? Just anything you want. So I talked about rejecting passivity in your life, that there's something in all of us that's passive and we need to reject that and step into people's life. I said, let me tell you a story. And it's this story. And that's why I said, it's the same. Timmy, my oldest son's 39. He was at this Christian school and they really encouraged parents to come and show up. Recess sometimes and whatever. And moms all win. And Anne's like, you should go sometime. Like, okay, I'm gonna go. I go. And it's like recess time or lunchtime, I can't remember. But all I know is there's a football laying on the thing. I'm an old college quarterback. I'm like, hey, who wants to play football? So I split up the teams and it was all boys, and I'm the all time quarterback going back and forth. And I had one goal. Get every kid on each team the ball.

Speaker 1

To catch a ball.

Speaker 3

Yeah, just throw them a pass. Right? Who cares who wins? You know? And. And so there's this kid named Timmy, and he was actually. Our son's one of his best friends, and he was not an athletic kid. But I'm gonna get Timmy the ball. And so early in the game, I throw it to him. He's very close. He drops it.

Speaker 1

Oh, no.

Speaker 3

Timmy just can't catch it. And I won't even use his name. Well, yeah, there's a kid on best athlete in the school, ended up playing college soccer. Yells, he's on the other team. And he goes, Mr. Wilson, never throw the ball to Timmy.

Speaker 1

Timmy.

Speaker 3

He stinks, basically. But he used a different word. And I yell at Ben, I go, ben, we don't talk like that out here. Well, I'm just telling you, the kid is worthless. He can't do it. And so we go on and go on. And later in the game, it's about recess, about then I gotta get Timmy the ball. Everybody else has gotten the ball, so I'm like a foot away here. Timmy drops. It just wasn't his gift.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And Ben goes off again. And I tell you, Heather, today I'd probably be thrown to jail. I literally walk over and grab bend from the back of his shirt, not forcefully, but strong enough to walk him over to the teacher standing by the door to go into the school. And I said, hey, this young man needs to go in. He's done. You'll love this. The teacher looks at me and goes, and you are who? I'm C.J. wilson's dad. You know, I'm here, You know. She goes, yeah, well, he didn't do anything that I saw. So you're good to go, Ben. And then Ben goes, I told you, Mr. Wilson, I told you. And she goes, okay, now I saw it. You're done. And she takes him in. And that's the end of the story until Thursday. Three days later, I'm at parent teacher conference, and some lady taps me on the back of my shoulder when I'm talking to the teacher. And I turn around. I've never seen this lady before. I go, can I help you? And she goes, are you C.J. wilson's dad? I go, yeah. She starts crying.

Speaker 1

Oh, no.

Speaker 3

She goes, I'm Timmy's mom. I go, oh, good to me. And she goes, timmy came home Monday and told me that you stood up for him.

Speaker 1

Oh, my gosh.

Speaker 3

On the playground. And he said, nobody has ever stood up for him. Can I just say thank you? I mean, I'm just sitting there crying like nobody did. I know in that moment that's what was going on. I didn't even think about it. This young boy needs somebody to say, and today Tim's in a successful engineering mind. You know, guy, that's his cj and that was his seat. And it was like, that's what God calls us to do.

Speaker 1

Stand up.

Speaker 3

That's a scent moment.

Speaker 1

Yeah. Stand up for people.

Speaker 3

Would you just do what I did? That's what Jesus actually.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

So, man, how powerful is that?

Speaker 2

Well, to live that? I think as adults, it's very easy to get so wrapped up in ourselves, our world, our thoughts and feelings. That I think is part of Satan's strategy that we don't see those around.

Speaker 1

Us, especially the children around you.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Jesus loves children.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

I love how in the Bible, you know, the disciples are like, don't bother him. Jesus says, let the little children come to me. He loves children. And you can be that fun neighborhood mom or dad that blesses the children.

Speaker 3

I mean, the sad thing, you know this better than anybody. What you're writing about in this story with Alida doesn't change when we're 30.

Speaker 1

No, that's still the same struggle. It's still the same struggle of jealousy. And I was asking Ann about it. Like, you. Once, you know, you're seated at the table, it kind of changes as you get older. Like, maybe you're jealous of other people's children are getting married and having kids, or you're a grandparent, but the other grandparents get to see the children more, and you're, you know, whatever it is. So how do you apply scripture and the truth of who you are in Christ to help heal you from jealousy? Because when you're jealous, you're not really able to care for people well, because you're just hurting inside and you're thinking about yourself and what's missing from your life. So you really have to believe, I think, in God's sovereignty and go back to gratitude and really believe that the table where you are is exactly where you're supposed to be. And in the book, the Secret Three Words that Mrs. Bergley says to Alida to help her with jealousy, which a lot of women have told me has made all the difference in their life, is when you're jealous, you say, that's her seat, or, that's his seat. That's not my seat. They win all the prizes. That's her seat. She gets the beautiful mansion, married, children, whatever. That's her seat. God has a seat for you with special blessings designed just for you that will delight you. Think about the number of times you see scripture where God is doing something delightful. The key passage in this is from First Timothy, where it says, God richly provides all things for your enjoyment. And you know how in Psalm 103, he satisfies your desires with good things so that your youth is renewed like the eagle. So don't you think God knows how to bless your life? That will be a blessing for you. It's different. And who knows? Maybe you wouldn't want that life that you're jealous of. Maybe it would be terrible for you.

Speaker 2

So after you've written this first book, this seat saved, did you get any feedback from moms or daughters?

Speaker 1

Yes, and I still do to this day. You do? Yes. Part of it was when it won Christianity Today's Book of The year it got a lot of attention so moms could trust it that it was a good book. So I get little letters. Sometimes I get notes in the mail. They're adorable. And usually they say this exact same thing happened to me. But now I know I'm seated with Jesus and the things that they worry about. Like, I got a letter from a reader a couple weeks ago and this was an email that her and her mom sent me. And she said, I'm really jealous because my friend has two golden retrievers and I'm not ever gonna get a dog because my dad's allergic or something. And I had to say to myself, that's her seat. But I'm really struggling, Mrs. Solom, I'm never gonna get a dog. How is Jesus gonna make this right? And I just thought the things that little kids care about.

Speaker 2

That's so cute, though. And then the second book, the Disappearing Seat, just keeps going with the adventure.

Speaker 1

Yes. Just different struggles she has. And the key is how she trusts God and begins to pray to him and understand how God sees her, mostly through the psalms and different passages that her mentor sends her. The third book that's coming out is called the Elite Seat. And it's what happens when you do become popular. So, Dave, this book is for you. And then the last seat that I just signed the contract for, the Last seat follows summer. So you get all the seasons. And it's set in Pennsylvania, so it's the seasons that are all in the Pennsylvania woods. The last book is called this Seat's Yours. And it's what happens when the leader realizes God has her on a mission to be sent. You'll love it. So it's going to be a four book series that a little, little middle schooler can read and fortify themselves against the things that will happen throughout their life.

Speaker 3

I mean, what you're talking about in terms of identity, this is what I'm just thinking right now. It's like when we understand whether we're middle school girl, boy, 50, 60 year old man, or woman, married, divorced, blinded, it doesn't matter. When we understand who we are seated in Christ, it probably. Am I exaggerating. One of the most attractive things to the non Christian world, they're drawn to that. A person that's secure, that isn't striving for all these seats, they know where they're seated. Don't you think? That is our sin? Identity. They're drawn to that. When you come across somebody, there's a peace in their life, there's a Joy in their life. It's not connected to striving for something. Am I right? It's like there's something about that.

Speaker 1

Well, I think it pretty much be understanding Ephesians 2. I'm beginning to think it solves almost every problem that you will have in life because you apply it. Because remember, the beginning of Ephesians 2 talks about you can follow the ways of the world. And it says it's the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit, who is now at work in those who are disobedient. A lot of the tables that you are fighting for, you want to seat there because you believe it's going to bring you life. Well, guess what? That table's probably following the way of the world. There are many warnings about the pursuit of wealth in the Bible, many warnings about the love of money. And yet that's the table we all want to sit at. If only I had more money. Or think about. If you're listening and you're like, well, I need the table of good health, or this isn't unbiblical. I want to be at the table of a happy marriage or children. Well, what I'm learning is if I'm fighting for a seat at the table, even if it's a good thing, it might be an idol for me. Like, it's a false resting place. You didn't know it's a false resting place. You having a strong heart, even that was a false resting place. It's not where your security comes from. And we know that. Cause you literally were in a hospital for four days or five days, so. So God's teaching me when I think to myself, I need this thing in order to be okay. Jesus says, no, you don't. You're already at the greatest table with the greatest king. That is the foundation that right there.

Speaker 2

For women when it comes to our marriages. Does God want you to have a good marriage? Of course. But we have to surrender that. Because I made Dave and marriage my idol for a decade.

Speaker 3

Thinking idol, meaning?

Speaker 2

Meaning if you would get your act.

Speaker 1

Together, be more romantic, redecorate my house.

Speaker 2

For me, I could be happy.

Speaker 3

See me.

Speaker 2

And our happiness does not depend on a great husband or great kids or a perfect life. It depends on Jesus and the Gospel and our surrender to him. That's when we find contentment of our soul.

Speaker 1

Right? And when you're content, you're not nagging your husband all the time. And I mean, the most of the things I fight about in my marriage have to do with superficial Things that have to do with me wanting more of something.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

So when I surrendered, like, I don't need this perfect house, suddenly I'm at peace. And I'm not. So if you made a list of the top things you argue about, usually it's related to an idol, I think, don't you?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Either something you want that's being denied you or something you're afraid of, or.

Speaker 2

I think it can represent pain in our past that we're trying to get our husband to meet the need that we had in the. Like, you don't see me. Oh, you don't? Well, because I wasn't seen growing up. And so now I want Dave to see me. Do you know what I mean? So it's a pain and an injury. In the past, something happened that now I want him to fill that need.

Speaker 3

And why don't I see her? Cause I'm out conquering the world, trying to get seen.

Speaker 1

Well, Ash and I, we do a lot with the book we wrote on having better conversations, which Gary Chapman actually wrote the foreword to that book. So I love him. You guys just interviewed him. One of the things we're seeing is just loneliness in marriage because they've lost the art of communication. So one of the things that Ash and I love to do is before you live a scent life, you actually need to know how to engage people in loving, meaningful ways. And it's so simple, it's not complex. Learning how to ask really good questions of your spouse. You can even have a list of five questions that always work, like. Like, tell me the highlight of your day today or what surprised you about your day. So you're just asking questions that people like to answer. Did anything new happen to you today? So Ash and I teaching people just the art of conversation has been life changing for loneliness in marriage because you need what researchers just call a warm connection. And when you have that warm connection, you're gonna feel like marriage is working again for you. So that's another component to it. There are simple solutions to some of these things, which I know you guys see in your couples retreats, all that you do.

Speaker 2

And as a listener, you might be thinking, I know he never asked me those questions. You be the one to ask the question first. And it'll be amazing how that will open up a whole new area for you in your marriage with communication to be friends.

Speaker 1

Right. Well, the best tip we have, Ash and I, is if you are out with your spouse and you can't think of what to talk about, just say to Your spouse. Here is the question I'm hoping you'll ask me. Just tell them what you want to talk about.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

Yes. And then sometimes the beauty of marriage is carrying one another's burdens. But again, this relates to journaling, to be self aware enough that you know what's on your mind. So even saying to your spouse, what. What did you think about most today? What were you. If you're. And you want to be a reflective person so you know what God's doing and, and what you're thinking about. And Ash and I really believe that living a scent life as a couple is the most exciting thing you can do. Making a list of five couples in your neighborhood who don't know Jesus and inviting them to dinner and being on mission together to see what God will do.

Speaker 2

It's the best.

Speaker 1

Yeah, it's the best.

Speaker 3

Here's my last question. If you. Well, you can right now talk to a mom of a middle school girl. What would you tell this mom she needs to do or know or say or not say? I'm giving you all kinds of, you know, options, but you know, think of that mom. You've been that mom.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

And it could be a dad, but I'm thinking of a mom specifically. What. What do they need to know? What are they missing?

Speaker 1

I think the number one thing parents can do is help children connect with Jesus in prayer to go to him with what they need. I know it sounds so simple, but keeping a prayer journal with your child is probably one of the number one things. You together, right? We do it even to this day. I told you, my girls are in their twenties. We call it the pj. The prayer journal. I'll text them and say, what do you girls have for the PJ today? What are five things you're praying for? We've been doing that for probably 20 years. And it used to be things like, well, pray that I have a good lunch today or pray that I do okay on my spelling test. Now it's huge. Things. My daughter is moving out to Colorado, CSU actually, for her PhD in immunology. The prayer requests are huge. Pray I have funding for my program. Pray I find a house in Colorado, you know, pray that God leads me to a good church, you know, whatever it is. So you get to really pray together as a family. I can't remember if it was James Dobson or who said it back in the day. The number one way to grow the faith of a child is to start a prayer journal. Did you remember ever hearing that? No.

Speaker 2

But it's really good.

Speaker 1

And then the reason why. Here's the big reason why, Dave. Getting your child excited to see what I call divine activity. It'll change their life to be like God is real. He hears me. He's at work answering my prayers now, even if he doesn't answer. That's why the Disappearing Seed is such a good book. Where is God when I don't see him answering? But you begin to trust him for things. You begin to see the way he's at work.

Speaker 2

That's so good.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I don't think people believe that God's really at work. I mean, think of. What is it Psalm 34, he formed the hearts of all and considers everything they do.

Speaker 2

Everything.

Speaker 1

But why don't people think God is here for me? Right. And. Or they think, you know, I talk to friends who say, well, I. God doesn't have time for me. Why would he listen to my prayers? Well, because he's infinitely loving and infinitely wise and infinitely generous and a good father and he's listening. And Jesus ever lives to intercede. He what? So I think prayer. What do you guys think? What would you say?

Speaker 3

I mean, that's power. I think less than 1% of parents probably have a PJ.

Speaker 1

They need the PJ, you know, the sit and sit.

Speaker 2

You can do it as a family too. Even at dinner, if your kids are in your home of. Just so that they can see, as you said it, God's activity.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And you could use different words like some of the social science research about warm connections and families is you can say things like, what's the big stress today? Or like, what's the thought going through your mind you can't get rid of today? Because rumination, if you talk to even a seven year old, hey, do you have a thought in your mind you can't get rid of? What you're asking them is, what is the stress? They might not have words for it, but they may say something like, oh, I'm really nervous. I keep thinking I'm going to have a nosebleed. Right. How would you know what's on your child's neck?

Speaker 2

That's a really good question.

Speaker 1

Right. And my daughter, this happened to her and she had so much anxiety and I couldn't figure it out. And so when they say that, you can say, okay, let's put it in the prayer journal and then let's think of some strategies. What happens if you do get a nosebleed? What are we gonna do? And then you're giving. You're empowering. Them to solve their problems. But so you could use the prayer journal just for major stressors, which I love that because Jesus says, you know, cast your cares upon me.

Speaker 2

And even learning to take their thoughts captive.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

You know.

Speaker 1

Yes. The fears, they have so much fear. And what do I do? Yeah.

Speaker 2

What do I do with that? I mean, we're all wondering that what do I do with all these fears and the stressors in my life? And is it okay? Should I ruminate? Because you use the word in these books, the kids books. Savor.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

But for savoring, it's like you're thinking on the things that are good.

Speaker 1

Yeah. It's. The research term is positive rumination.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And here's a little pro tip to the parents. When they put it in the prayer journal, it's out of their brain. The prayer journal holds it so good, they don't have to hold it.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

So don't worry about it. It's in the prayer journal. And then I read this great quote. You're gonna love this. Specificity makes visibility. So when it's specific, like, you don't pray. God help me. Have a good day. Ask God for what you really need in a specific way and just see what he does.

Speaker 2

That's so good.

Speaker 1

He's gonna hear it. He might not say yes, but he's gonna hear that prayer and answer it in some way.

Speaker 2

If I were a mom with kids under my roof, I would listen to this podcast over and over again. I just want you to know I would because there's so much richness and practicality in what you're doing. But I would definitely get these books. I already have gotten one. One of these for my granddaughter. And we're gonna be together with them not too long. And I want to talk about even the questions in the backs of the books.

Speaker 1

Oh, there's a lot of good questions. There's some really good questions. And mother. One cool thing is I heard a mom say they're doing a mother daughter book club where the moms are reading Seated with Christ the adult books. The kids are reading. This seat saved the disappearing seat. And then they separate to do their. But then they come back together because the questions are the same in each book. Like, where, hey, tell us the story, mom. What was. In fact, you can ask. Ask someone in their 50s. Hey, do you remember the middle school lunchroom? And they will remember. They will tell you the name of the popular girl that rejected them from the middle school lunchroom. I travel all over the world speaking on seated With Christ. When I tell them the story of the middle school lunchroom rejection, they will cry. They will remember that feeling of the first time they knew they didn't have a seat at the table. So you can read it along with your daughter and answer the questions in the back. And you can even ask like, hey, what was the trending food that you guys ate in the lunchroom? What was the lunchroom like for you? It's different now. They're all on their phones.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think as a mom, I would read it and then I would talk about it with my daughter or son.

Speaker 1

Well, you're like Mrs. Bergley, because you're the grandma.

Speaker 2

I thought like I would want to be Mrs. Bergley. You are like the neighbor who is basically discipling her.

Speaker 1

She is. And she continues to. She's going to travel out to. To see her even.

Speaker 2

That's so sweet.

Speaker 3

Hey, we got, you know, Bruce. Bruce in there is the father of young daughters. I want to ask Bruce a question. Do you think, you think you'll be doing something like this with your girls when they get a little older? Well, we've got one who's nine, so I mean, I've already got it up on Amazon here. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

I mean, it sounds like something you would do, doesn't it? Like now.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Well, nine do read it. It does prepare you for middle school. I even had a group of homeschool girls who'd ever experienced this because they don't have lunch. They said, no, it is just as bad when we go to the co ops or youth group, we walk into the room, we don't know where our seat is.

Speaker 2

They said, they're my friends.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I said, look, when you walk into a room and you know you're at the best table with Jesus, you can look up and then look for who doesn't have a seat and invite them. So you're gonna love it.

Speaker 2

That's really good, good stuff. Thanks, Heather. We love you.

Speaker 1

Thank you for having me out.

Speaker 2

I love being here with have you back.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

So you don't need to go to Amazon to get your books. You can, but we've got them in our show notes. Tell our. We have people watching too. Watching and listening. What are the books that we're gonna put in the show notes for them?

Speaker 1

Well, you wanna order this seat saved? It's book one. Book two is called the Disappearing Seat, but you order the companion journal, the Sit and Savor journal, right along with it. And they will love it. It's A perfect summer reading. It's perfect to start the school year here.

Speaker 3

Yes. And the links in the show notes@familylife today.com. that's where you're going to find these. Here's another question.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 3

And this one's going to be for our monthly partners. These are financial partners with us that are giving. And we have a special little question just for them. If you're not a partner with us, I'm telling you right now, become a partner.

Speaker 1

Become a partner of family life. Yes.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I don't know how. I don't even know how I'm going to ask this question, but it's going to be. We're going to revisit something you said last time you're here about the Hayden Planetarium.

Speaker 1

Yes. Yes.

Speaker 3

Has something to do with every seat.

Speaker 1

Yes. I love that quote. Yeah, that's in there. That's in this. That's in this seat. Saved as well, I'll say.

Speaker 3

So you can get that in the show notes. But if you want to become a monthly partner, you can hear her answer. And you can do that by going to familylife today.com. click the Donate button at the top.

Speaker 2

Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button.

Speaker 3

And we'd like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go to and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this.

Speaker 2

Word like and subscribe.

Speaker 1

Look at that.

Speaker 3

You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.