FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Church at its best is where we go to let our guard down, not where we have to raise our guard up in order to walk in the building.

It's where we are meant to be able to exhale and actually kind of collapse collectively into the arms of Jesus with one another.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. Hi, I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us@familylifetoday.com. this is Family Life Today.

Speaker 2

If there's a group of people that are weary, and I know a lot of people are weary, but there's probably.

Speaker 3

A long list, actually.

Speaker 2

Yeah. But I was thinking pastors of a group of people that a lot of people may not understand the weariness, but it's a heavy, weary job.

Speaker 3

Can we say moms, too?

Speaker 2

Okay, we can say moms. Actually, you know, you just trumped it. They gotta be worse.

Speaker 3

I think everyone has a bit of weariness. But why are we talking about weariness?

Speaker 2

Well, we got Sam Alberry Sitting over there, Mr. Cameraman, who did the little click on the thing. So you should watch this.

Speaker 1

That's why you're talking about weariness is. Cause I'm here.

Speaker 2

Sam just made the whole day more Weary.

Speaker 3

Presence makes the day better.

Speaker 2

No, it's better. And you should watch the YouTube version because we get to see him do the little. What do you call that thing? How do you know? You call it.

Speaker 1

We call it the clapper in the film industry.

Speaker 3

Clapper.

Speaker 2

I'm guessing we gotta start this show all over again. No, Bruce likes it.

Speaker 1

All right, 10 seconds of useful content.

Speaker 2

So far, weary is in Sam's new book. Is this new?

Speaker 1

Yes. Ish. Came out last year.

Speaker 2

Yes. Okay, you're not crazy. I almost started there. Like, okay, I've been called crazy often, but Gospel sanity for weary churches. So all I gotta do is start this interview, say, explain that.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I wrote this book with my friend Ray Ortland. We've been talking through these issues of church, health, and life in such a weary context. And we've done some podcasts on it, and we've written a book together.

Speaker 3

What's a podcast called Sam?

Speaker 1

It's called "You're Not Crazy" as well. So see what we did there? Now, the reason we've given it that title is because when Ray is talking to a pastor who is feeling so weary and thinking, surely church isn't meant to be this divisive. Surely we are meant to embody something different as the people of God and not be the same as the culture around us.

Ray's message to that person is, "You're not crazy." We are supposed to be different. And so any pastor or church member who is wanting the relational life of the church to feel different from the relational life of the world around us, our message is, "You're not crazy."

So let's recover the gospel sanity in a very crazy, wearying age. Right now, we live in such an angry, anxious, divisive, accusing, outragey kind of culture. I don't need to prove that. I don't need to back that up.

Speaker 3

Yeah, we all understand that.

Speaker 1

We believe it to be self-evident. It's never been more important for churches to be the social environment the Bible calls us to be. Jesus says, "You know, by this will all people know you are my disciples, by your love for one another, not because you accuse one another, not because you look down on one another, not because you all hate the right things, but by your love for one another."

So for anyone who's thinking, "Surely church should feel like a different kind of social environment," you're not crazy. We hope this is a book that will help our churches into a greater discovery of the kind of relational environment the church is meant to be.

Speaker 2

Yeah, and I want to get to that. You know, what's the gospel? Sanity.

But before I get there, I want to ask, why do you think the culture has spun so far? Because it hasn't. I mean, there's always been division, obviously, but the angst and the anger and the vitriol, I mean, it's everywhere.

And again, we have social media and different things. But what do you think has happened?

Speaker 1

I think a few things have happened at the same time. Social media is a massive thing. Yeah. Because it means we're doing a lot more of our relating virtually and not physically. Someone even said that the moment we started going crazy culturally was when social media started introducing the like button. Because now we're doing things for likes and we're now saying things and then waiting to see what the response is. So that hasn't helped us.

We've seen a continued breakdown of real life, community, and friendship. The studies that have been done show us that the number of friends a typical American says they have has gone down dramatically in the last 20 years. We have fewer friends, we have less faith in local community. We think politics is going to be the answer to so many of our life's needs. So we're freighting politics with more significance than we have done in the past. Which means we're angrier when we encounter political difference.

You bundle all of those things together. Social media and cable news are designed to make us anxious and angry. So we've got that without having the emotional shock absorbers of healthy community around us. And so all of those things combined make us far more fractious and divided.

I saw a study recently that said the length of time people sit around the table at Thanksgiving has reduced since 2015.

Speaker 2

Really?

Speaker 1

We just can't be around each other as long as we used to be able to. And again, it's because there's so many social divisions.

Speaker 3

There's so many topics to avoid.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And these divisions have become more defining than they were. So we've always had our political differences. We've always had spirited discussions. There's always been divisiveness around political campaigns and elections and all that kind of thing.

But I think more than ever in the past, we now see culturally political difference, especially as being an indication that if someone differs from you politically, it means they are morally inferior and you get to treat them as that.

Speaker 3

Biblically inferior, even in our thoughts, which would be the same. Yeah. Like they must not know the Bible or even believe it if they're doing that or voting that way.

Speaker 1

Exactly. So all of those things combined means we're all lonelier, more anxious, a bit more on a hair trigger of outrage and upset and offense. We have fewer friends.

Speaker 2

Sounds like a great place to live, doesn't it?

Speaker 3

Sounds like we feel weary. I feel weary. After all of that.

Speaker 2

I mean, that does describe weary.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And it's been a uniquely difficult season for pastors. I don't put myself in with that. God has been kind enough to put me in a church that mercifully is a healthy church. I'm in a situation where there's healthy community.

But I know a lot of pastors who've maybe served in a church for 30 years. And in the last five years, people who they've married, their kids, they've buried their parents, they've done so much of life with over decades, have suddenly turned on their heels and left over some fairly minor political difference.

We're more divided in our churches than we've been for a very long time. And that's hard for pastors because there's now so many areas where you wonder if whatever you say on a Sunday, what are the emails you're gonna get on a Monday?

Speaker 3

We have even one of our sons. We're in ministry. I have a son and a couple of sons in ministry.

But one of the things our younger son said was that everybody feels like they need to express their wrongs and grievances about everything.

And so even in staff meetings, he said, it's exhausting. It's exactly what you're saying. It's wearisome.

Speaker 1

Offense has become a virtue. So if I'm offended, that gives me a sense of superiority and entitlement. I have a grievance now that I need to take to the world or to the pastor or whoever. And someone owes me something now.

And that's hard for pastors because the gospel itself causes offense. And so when someone says to me, "I'm offended by your teaching," I'm alive to two possibilities. One is I've said something in a clumsy way and I've been needlessly offensive. The second possibility is they've heard the word of God and it's a double-edged sword.

The trouble is the word of God wounds us to heal us, but we just assume any form of hurt is a moral wrong on the person who's hurt us. So it's harder for the Word to wound people in a healthy way without the pastor being blamed and accused of all kinds of things, alongside the reality we're all aware of: real spiritual abuse as well.

So it's a strange time where pastors are frightened of being accused of anything because the moment you're accused, you're guilty. Additionally, pastors are nervous of thinking. We've seen so many false shepherds in recent days, so many people who've been bullies in the pulpit.

I know people who are nervous of becoming pastors because they don't want to be that guy, and they're afraid they might be that guy just by becoming a pastor. It's a fragile time.

Speaker 2

So with all that as sort of a backdrop, which is this is all really depressing.

Speaker 3

Don't go into ministry.

Speaker 2

But I mean the question does beg itself. It's like, okay, you use the term emotional shock absorber.

Should be. Could be. Hopefully as the church and I would even say the family.

So what does gospel sanity look like? How do we become emotionally solid?

Speaker 1

Not solid.

Speaker 2

Chakras have some flexibility, but a place that people feel safe and they want to land and they want to be a part of my family or my church.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So this is the good news.

Speaker 2

Good.

Speaker 1

The very gospel itself is designed to create a new kind of relational environment. It's not just meant to be abstract truths that we intellectually ascribe to. The gospel itself changes the tone of our relationships.

So we should have a high expectation of our relational life in church being different from the culture around us now. We're still sinners. We're still going to mess up.

Speaker 3

How does the gospel do that?

Speaker 1

Because Paul says in Romans 15:7, "Welcome one another as Christ has welcomed you to the glory of God." So Paul's four-word summary of the gospel is, "Christ has welcomed you." That's what the gospel is in four words: Christ has welcomed you.

He's not just fixed the problem of your sin and then sent you away. He's actually pulled you into his very heart. And Paul says, the more you see that, the more you can welcome one another. The welcome of Jesus doesn't just mean a casual greeting. He doesn't just say, "Welcome one another," because we might then think that welcome is simply nodding as you walk past someone or saying a quick, "Hey, how are you? Fine, fine."

That is not the welcome of Jesus. The welcome with which Christ has welcomed us is that he has pulled us into his whole heart. He's made us part of his family. So we're to do that with one another. We're to be physical embodiments of the welcome of Jesus to one another. Therefore, we are to make horizontal the vertical welcome we've received from Christ.

Speaker 3

That is not easy.

Speaker 1

It's not easy, but it's the biblical expectation that we do that.

And the way to do it is to stare at the welcome of Jesus because the more we feel his welcome of us, the harder it's going to be for me to then push other people away and say, I'm sorry, you don't get to be welcomed by me.

Speaker 3

What does that mean to the welcome of Jesus? We need to stare into the welcome of Jesus. What does that mean? How does that look and how do we do it?

Speaker 1

Well, it means we stare at the heart with which Christ has made us his. So when I look at the cross of Christ, I'm not just seeing someone who is making a payment in some cold, abstract way. I see the one who, for the joy set before him, was willing to endure the cross. So I have to conclude Jesus wants to be my Savior. Jesus loves being my Savior. He is the one in Hebrews 2 who is not ashamed to call us his brothers. If that's how he feels about us, I'm feeling something of his welcome.

When I look at the cross, I'm feeling something of the welcome of Jesus. In Ephesians 2, we were aliens and strangers from God. We were foreigners to his covenant. We were just oblivious to his ways. Now we've been brought near so that the cross is divine hospitality. God is taking us who are far away and looking in the other direction. And again, he's pulled us in and sat us at his very table.

And the more I see that the gospel will then change our own hearts and to be hearts that long to welcome other people in the same way that we've been pulled in.

Speaker 3

You know what? I had this thought as Sam was talking. You have the best voice.

And I was like, you know, they have those apps now that will speak to you before you go to sleep.

I'm like, I did not know that you should do that. It could be this. Like, you're.

Speaker 2

I think it'd be weird. If we're laying in bed and I hear Sam's voice, it's basically helping you go to sleep.

Speaker 3

It's catechism of the gospel of who we are and our identity in Christ.

If I played that with Sam's voice, it's that British accent, you know, just going over and over, this is who I am. This is what he's done.

This is. Wouldn't that be a. That's a money maker, Sam.

Speaker 1

That'd be good for you.

Speaker 3

But it's so true. Like, as you say, all of that. I mean, like, yes, yes, yes. That is looking right at the heart of Jesus, of what he's done for us.

Speaker 1

Come to me, all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. I am gentle and lowly of heart. So again, the more we see that, the more we want to become it. You know, in the Bible, you always become the thing you worship.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

What you most revere, what you most esteem, you begin to resemble. And so the good news is, the more we stare at Jesus, the more we set apart Christ as Lord, the more we become like Him.

Speaker 2

Now, is that why a person that has been welcomed into a community of Christ followers who are trying to live out the gospel culture? So you're in a body, a church, a small group, or whatever of a community that's, you know, we aspire to that. We're looking at Jesus, we're trying to live that, and then we don't.

You know, the term is church hurt. You know, I've been hurt by church people, and it's like a hundred times worse than my neighbor who doesn't know God. I sort of don't expect something from him, but from these people, I do. And they didn't live up to that.

How do you walk through that sort of valley?

Speaker 1

Yeah, betrayal is a real thing. And there is a greater sense of betrayal when it comes from within the people of God. Because we are meant to be different. We are meant to be able to expect more from each other than we would from other people. We're always having in our mind, they're a sinner still, and I'm a sinner still. I'm going to let them down. I'm going to disappoint them. They're going to disappoint me. But even allowing for that, there is still a category of real betrayal and real hurt.

And we need to bring that to the Lord as well and look to him for grace and healing. In time, we want to forgive where we have been wronged. And again, this all takes time to learn to trust the people of God again. There may be a lot of small steps that make up that journey. But I hope if we're following Jesus, it should be our goal, our aspiration, to be part of the people of God.

Even if we've been hurt by the people of God—and most of us have, and some people have in very intense ways—part of the privilege we have within a church community is caring for the wounded among us. That's part of what we're to do. In Nashville, we have a lot of people coming who have church hurt in their past. Quite a few of our staff do. Quite a few of us are serving in church, having thought we would never, ever serve in a church ever again.

But the antidote to church hurt is church health rather than no church. Now, it's going to take someone a while to trust again if they've been profoundly hurt by a church. But again, the thing that will most help them long term is finding Christian community they can trust.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's interesting. Even when you think of church hurt, what just hit me is family hurt. It's almost the same thing.

You expect family members, whether they're believers or not, to at least treat you different because you're a family member. And when that offense comes, that's a deep, deep hurt.

Speaker 1

All abuse is heinous and wicked.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Domestic abuse has an additional level of cruelty to it because it's happening in the environment where you're meant to be safe, whether that's the home or the church. Those are places where we should feel secure.

I mean, church at its best is where we go to let our guard down, not where we have to raise our guard up in order to walk in the building. It's where we are meant to be able to exhale and actually kind of collapse collectively into the arms of Jesus with one another.

Speaker 3

But I think you're right. Whether it be a family or a church, when you're hurt, the reflex reaction is to put a wall up, to guard your heart. It's to not let people in. And yet that's what Jesus is longing for—all of us.

Sometimes, church hurt can overlap with feelings of hurt from Jesus or God. We feel like maybe the church has hurt us or has abandoned us, and it can feel, for many, like that was Jesus.

As we walk in and enter into our families, how do we find the safety to let the wall down and to feel that sense of, "Ah, I can be here"? How do we allow ourselves to lower those guards when we automatically put them up because of the hurt?

Speaker 1

Yeah. And part of it is learning to let our guard down with Jesus first.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I think so, too.

Speaker 1

And for church to be defined by, hey, this is. We come together before a God who's made it safe for him to know all the worst things about us, so we don't have to pretend before him, and therefore we shouldn't have to pretend before one another. So let's not make this the place where we put on our Christian pretense and posturing and posing. Let's make church the place where actually I don't have to spin who I am in front of these people. I can actually be honest.

And so for us at our church, in how we try and think through the culture of what a church is meant to be like, for us, the most foundational thing is honesty, because the gospel makes us honest. We have to confess and come clean to God, and we need to confess and come clean to one another, too. So that's the first step, I think, is trying to cultivate a culture of honesty where we want our church to be a place where it's safe to confess any kind of sin because Jesus has come to forgive all the sins and blasphemies of men. That helps because people don't feel like they've got to pretend to be better than they are.

Now, I want to qualify. That is different to what our culture means by authenticity. Our culture has its own counterfeit of honesty, which is, I'm just being authentic. This is just the way I am. You've got to accept it. I'm a Myers Briggs. This enneagram that it's just the way I am put up with me. That's not confession. That's not the honesty the Bible invites us into. The honesty the Bible invites us into is confessing sin, not excusing it, but in a context where we try to make it as easy as possible for people to confess sin, I think it does build a place of real safety and trust.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I think that's something I want to dive into a little bit more tomorrow. Like, what's that honesty look like?

Because I know on one side of the family hurt or the church hurt, when mom or dad are honest to the children, here's my mistakes. I'm asking your forgiveness because I scolded you wrong or spoke words that were demeaning.

When I... that goes a long way to healing church hurt. It doesn't immediately heal it, but it starts a journey. Like, oh, you mean the leader of this place, the leader of this family is owning up to their own mistakes? I feel welcomed.

Speaker 3

Well, we just heard a story a few days ago about this incredibly honest moment where a mom told me she was so upset with her husband that she gave him a hand gesture. The kids saw it, and they were appalled. You know, they're younger kids.

At the dinner table, the mom said, "Kids, I know you saw what I did to your dad. I just want to tell you, like, that was wrong. I was so angry, but that's no excuse. That was sin. I had to talk to Jesus about it, and I want you to know about it."

The fact that she would bring this to the table, and both the mom and the dad talked about it, discussing their wrongs and how they had to talk to Jesus first, struck me. I was thinking, what a great example of how our table here is safe to be seen, to fail, and to ask forgiveness of one another. I thought it was beautiful that they could do that.

Speaker 1

Kids were like, ah, it makes the gospel real.

Speaker 3

That's it.

Speaker 1

And real Christianity isn't us not sinning. It's us owning up when we do.

Speaker 3

That's it.

Speaker 1

To your point, the pastor, among other things, is the repenter in chief.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

So it has to start with the pastor setting a tone of honesty and repentance with some important caveats.

Speaker 3

Hey, I just want to pause for a moment and remind you as a listener, you might need to hear this. You are not alone.

Speaker 2

Nope.

Speaker 3

You're not alone. And whatever you're going through today, you're not alone. I don't know if you know this, but Dave and I have a team at Family Life today ready to pray for you. It's this incredible honor and privilege just to lift your name up to God.

So if you need prayer, please, please reach out to us. You can head on over to familylife.com/prayforme. Again, that's familylife.com/prayforme and tell us, how can we pray for you?

And we're not kidding. Dave and I have a prayer team specifically dedicated to praying for our listeners. Praying for you. I walk almost every day, and that's when I'm going to be praying for you. And Dave, you always fast on Fridays, and that's when you pray. Well, more than just Fridays.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

It isn't just Fridays, but all day Friday, while I'm getting hunger pangs, I'm praying. It's like breathing. I'm praying all day. And often I pray for family life listeners like you. And like Ann said, you're not alone.

Speaker 3

You matter to us.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And God is with you. And we would love to lift you up by name. So Again, go to familylife.comprayforme and we will pray for you and our team will pray for you.

Speaker 3

I think this conversation has been incredibly helpful. Sam, this book is amazing. It's called you'd're not Gospel Sanity for Weary Churches. And this is our gift to you just by giving any amount to family life. And we would love to send it to you.

Speaker 2

Yeah, just go to family life today.com and we'll send you the book. Or you can call this number that my my beautiful wife's going to give you.

Speaker 3

It's 1-800-358-6329. That's 800F as in family. L as in life. And then the word.

Speaker 2

Family life today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.