FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I was walking around acting as if I had unlimited capacity—unlimited physical capacity, unlimited emotional, mental, and spiritual capacity—just like I was just acting, like, unlimited.

And when we do that, we are trying to put ourselves in a position to be the ultimate provider for other people.

And that should only be God's job.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us@familylife today.com. this is Family Life Today. So we're talking boundaries today.

Speaker 2

Are you good at boundaries?

Speaker 3

Well, you're married to me 43 years. I don't know. Am I?

Speaker 2

Yeah. I think you're way better than I am.

Speaker 1

What?

Speaker 2

Because I want to please people, and so I say yes, and I do things that I probably regret later. But I feel like you're good at boundaries.

Speaker 3

Well, I don't. That wasn't where I was going. I was thinking one of the first times I had to set a boundary was the first year I became a follower of Christ in college. I was on the football team and hung out with my football buddies. I was trying to stop some vices that were part of my pre-Christian life, including drinking. I told them, "I'm done drinking. I'm done with women. I'm going to live a different life."

I could keep that up for about an hour, but then being around them, I was just like, "Oh, they're like, just have one beer." All I'm saying is that I realized I'd never even considered this term boundary. I didn't know what it was. But I realized these are great guys; I love them. However, when I hang out with them, I do things I don't want to do.

I now know I needed to set a boundary. I actually did set a boundary, and they totally hated me. They looked at me like, "Look at you becoming this weirdo Christian guy." But for me to become the man that God wanted me to become, I had to set boundaries. That was one of my first experiences with it.

Speaker 2

Why are we talking about this today?

Speaker 3

Because we've got Lisa Terkhurst with us, and she has written a book called Good Boundaries and Goodbyes. Lisa, welcome back to family life.

Speaker 1

Thank you so much. It's an honor to be with you.

Speaker 2

We're really glad that you're here. I love the subtitle of your book, too, because it says, loving others without losing the best of who you are. And that's the tricky part. I'm Excited about where we're going with this today.

Speaker 1

Me too. It's a really fun topic. I think it was important for that to be the subtitle. Because the best motivation for boundaries is from a position of love. And real love is seeking each other's highest good.

It is not seeking another person's highest good to enable them to continue bad behavior or to do things that make you very much feel unsafe or unstable or not able to remain self-controlled. And so the motivation being love. The motivation for a healthy boundary should not be control, should not be manipulation, should not be punishment. It should be love.

And sometimes the most loving thing we can do is establish a healthy boundary.

Speaker 3

Well, I gotta tell you, when I saw your title, Good Boundaries and Goodbyes, it made me think of some music.

Speaker 1

Oh, this is exciting.

Speaker 2

Welcome to my life.

Speaker 1

This has never happened to me in an interview. Oh, really? Yes. This is wonderful. Here we go.

Speaker 3

We'll see what happens. But, you know, literally, when I saw the title, I thought, oh, I know a singer.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 3

And you know her too, and she sings a lot about good boundaries and goodbyes.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 3

And you know the song I'm Not Gonna do it all, but I remember when we broke up the first time. Oh, you're starting to sing it.

Speaker 1

Oh, I love this song.

Speaker 3

Saying, this is it. I've had enough, Victor. We uncover the.

Speaker 1

We are never, ever ever getting back together. We are never, ever ever getting back together. Your friends, talk to my friends. Talk to your friends, talk to me.

Speaker 2

Getting back together.

Speaker 3

All right, that's enough.

Speaker 1

That's enough.

Speaker 2

I love that you knew every word, Lisa.

Speaker 1

Look, now, I don't usually admit that because, you know, some people will just really, if you like Taylor Swift, they just have all kinds of. They get in their feels about it.

Speaker 3

Now, I know she gets the rip because she writes about all her boyfriends and, you know, breaks up with them.

But when you think of good boundaries and goodbyes, you often don't think good. You think boundaries are bad, goodbyes are bad.

So walk us through that. Like, why even write about good boundaries and goodbyes?

Speaker 1

Well, there are a couple reasons. One is, after I was no longer married and I spent years and years working harder on someone else than they were willing to work on themselves.

And it was crushing, and it was devastating.

But then after the divorce, I needed to work on myself.

Speaker 2

And let's just say, too, it affected every part of your life.

Speaker 1

Every part of my life.

Speaker 2

Even your health.

Speaker 1

Exactly. And so I remember one time, my counselor, he's a brilliant man, loves The Lord. He has a degree from Dallas Theological Seminary, but then he's also very well respected in the counseling and therapeutic world.

Speaker 3

Oh, he writes in your book and.

Speaker 2

He love that you have great stuff from him.

Speaker 1

Yes, yes. We actually do a podcast together. It's so fun.

Speaker 2

What's the podcast called?

Speaker 1

It's called Therapy and Theology. And so we love it. I always say Jim brings the therapy. Our theologian, Joel Mutamale, he brings the theology, and I bring the issues. So it's a really good dynamic.

But I remember clearly Jim telling me that if I wanted to attract healthy relationships, and at that point, I wasn't willing to date or anything, so it wasn't even in a dating scenario, but I needed to work because healthy attracts healthy, you know? And so I was like, okay, well, what do I need to work on?

I very quickly discerned that I was a really good enabler. Just really good. I very much desire peace in my relationships. And because peace is such a high motivation for me, I didn't know what I didn't know. So I didn't realize that what I was doing was enabling. I thought I was helping.

And so it took me a really long time to understand that there's certain dynamics where you cross the line from having compassion to enabling bad behavior to continue.

Speaker 2

And that became your norm.

Speaker 1

Yeah. With my house, I had done a big renovation, and my sister came to visit. She went upstairs after a long drive to take a shower. A few minutes into her shower, she yells down, "Lisa, there's no hot water." To which I replied back to her, "Oh, give me a minute. That just means I need to turn the back floodlights back on."

When she got out of the shower, she came down and said, "Repeat to me what you said about why the hot water went out." I said, "I know. It's just so crazy. If the back floodlights are off, then the hot water goes out. So all you need to do is just turn the back floodlights on, and the hot water comes back." She responded, "You do realize that needs to be fixed, right?" I said, "I know. I have been meaning to laminate a little sign and put it by the light switch for the floodlights to tell people, 'Don't turn these off if you want hot water,' you know?"

She leaned in and said, "You do realize that's not normal, right?" The point of that story is that we get used to our own dysfunction to the point where it feels very normal, and we don't even realize that we're in this dysfunctional dance. That’s definitely what I struggled with, and it was a big part of learning to have healthier skills rather than enabling or being codependent.

I remember when my counselor said, "Let's talk a little bit about codependency." I was like, "Oh, I'm not codependent. I'm a very independent woman." He replied, "Okay, let me give you the definition of codependency. Do you ever find yourself saying, 'I need this other person to be okay so I can be okay'? Are they okay? Because if they're not okay, I'm not okay. I really need them to be okay." I was like, "Oh, yeah, I absolutely relate to that."

So, being a recovering codependent and enabler, plus a classic people pleaser, I realized that sometimes when your high motivation is peace, it can feel easier to just go along with the demands of everyone to prevent any kind of conflict than it is to take the risk of the peace being disrupted. I had a lot to work on. For years, I kind of thought, "Oh, yeah, I'm a people pleaser."

But I spent some time with the Lord as I was researching and asking the question, "Is God okay with boundaries? Where do we find biblical examples of this?" I didn't have the emotional fortitude to draw healthy boundaries, nor did I have the spiritual confidence. So, I worked on the spiritual confidence first.

I remember the Lord really addressing some things with my heart during my quiet time. I felt this question bubbling up: "Lisa, do you think that you're pleasing people so that you can make them happy, or are you pleasing them and trying to keep them happy so they won't take from you what they give you, and you fear you will not be okay if they took it away?" I very quickly learned that was the real source of my people pleasing. We will always desperately want from other people what we fear God will not provide for us.

Speaker 2

Give some examples of that.

Speaker 1

Well, if we're in a relationship and we fear that that person may be disappointed in us, that they may take their acceptance away. That's a tough one, right?

But chances are, if you're worried about that person being so disappointed in you and not accepting you because you draw a healthy boundary, chances are that's the kind of person who's gonna reject you eventually anyways. Whether or not you draw healthy boundaries.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3

So how did you start that journey in your marriage? Because you're seeing that in your marriage and you're tolerating it for, what, decades?

Speaker 1

Yeah, decades.

Speaker 2

Which I'm gonna add, too, Dave. It feels, as a Christian woman walking with Jesus, it feels like that's what we're supposed to do. Aren't we supposed to. Unconditionally. And so that's that fine line.

Speaker 1

Yes. What I didn't realize is that we can love unconditionally, but access that we grant people needs to be very dependent on whether or not they are being responsible with that access.

Jesus did absolutely lay down his life, and he modeled for us to lay down our life. But Jesus laid down his life for a high and holy purpose. He did not lay down his life to enable bad behavior to continue.

Speaker 3

So you got to a point where you realized you were doing that.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I think it wasn't just with my previous marriage. It was in a lot of relationships, because I just wanted to try to keep the peace. But what I realized is that in doing so, I was losing the best of who I was.

Speaker 2

I had heard you share a previous time that you were a room mom, and this teacher asked you to come back after your child was out of her class, asked you to come back and do a party.

Speaker 1

Yes. Yes. And help with the party for the grade that my kids were no longer in. And I remember at first, see, this is where my tendency is. A request is made, and suddenly I feel like it's my obligation.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 1

And so in years past, in many relationships, I would think every request is now my responsibility. I realized one day, no, it's not my responsibility because we have limited capacity. I was walking around acting as if I had unlimited capacity—unlimited physical capacity, unlimited emotional, mental, and spiritual capacity. I was just acting like I'm limited.

When we do that, we are trying to put ourselves in a position to be the ultimate provider for other people. That should only be God's job. Honestly, I was flattered that she wanted me to do the party, but I had to ask myself, do I really have the white space?

What will happen is I'll sign up for it now, and then as it gets closer and closer, I will be so stressed out that my family gets the worst of who I am.

Speaker 2

And I would say to myself, why did I ever say yes to this?

Speaker 1

Exactly.

Speaker 2

And you're crazy. You become crazy. And, yeah, your family pays for it.

Speaker 1

That's right. And so I now ask myself to be honest about reality. Mental health is a commitment to reality at all costs. And so if we are committed to reality, then we have to be honest with ourselves. We have to be self-aware enough to know what our limitations are. And it's not because we're selfish.

Now, certainly if our motivation is a selfish motivation, we need to check our heart. But most of the time, our motivation, or at least mine, was I just want peace, you know? And so I would rather pay the price than disrupt the peace. But you can only pay the price so long before you can become bankrupted.

You know, just like we have limited funds in our bank account, and everybody's pretty good about drawing boundaries around their bank account. Most of us have, you know, a passcode. I'm not saying you remember the passcode, but I'm just saying most of us have a passcode. Right?

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And we're not gonna on the air today suddenly give all people all access to our limited funds. We know not to do that.

And it's responsible, it's not mean or unchristian to limit people's access to our bank account. We know it with that area of our life, but sometimes we miss it with so many other areas of limited capacity.

Speaker 2

I thought the way that you responded to her and said no was genius. I've even already used it with someone.

Speaker 3

Me?

Speaker 2

No, I used it with one of my sons. Like, this is how you could do it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So my response was, while my heart says yes, yes, yes, the reality of my time makes this a no. Thank you for understanding without over explaining.

I know. I almost added that part because this is where the voice of Jim Kress, my counselor, comes in, you know, and he reminds me, adults inform children explain. And I'm like, okay, but can there be a hybrid in the middle? Like, can I just do a little tiny explanation?

You know, and so, yeah, I'm working on that. Thanks for bringing up that issue. I got so many issues. That's why, you know, I write these books.

Speaker 2

No, I was relating to it because I thought the same thing. And then what I tend to do is I over explain why I can't do it.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

And it's not necessary.

Speaker 3

Why do we over explain? Why do we explain at all?

Speaker 1

I think we're almost trying to get the other person to sign on to our boundary so that we don't have the awkward tension of them not being on the same page with us. And so we're trying to manage their feelings, which is also something that I'm continuing to work on. You know, it's not my job to manage someone else's feelings. My job is to inform them what is and is not okay, what is and is not acceptable, what I do and do not have to give.

And I think that's really the purest definition of a boundary. A boundary is an effective communication tool for us to establish what is and is not okay, what we will and will not accept, and what we do and do not have to give. Always checking our heart to make sure we're not being selfish, but at the same time being honest so that we can keep the best of who we are front and center and actually look like we spent some time with Jesus.

You know, it's like when I get pushed past my capacity and I'm feeling bankrupted in the emotional area of my life, then I'm not gonna stay self-controlled. I'm gonna eventually lose it in some capacity. And it is not my responsibility to control other people. But biblically speaking, it's evidence of God's spirit in me when I demonstrate self-control.

Speaker 2

If you think about the fruit of the spirit—love, joy, peace, patience—even those, when I look at my life, let alone Sel, I think that really does give us an indication if we're walking in the spirit or if we're just trying to please others.

Go ahead.

Speaker 3

Yeah. My thought was, if I'm listening and I don't know if I need to set a boundary, how do I identify? Like other people can see it, I can't see it. How do I know I need to be better at boundaries?

Speaker 1

Where there's chaos, there is a lack of a boundary. So I always tell people, look for the chaos in your life. And wherever there's chaos, it could be relational chaos, it could be time chaos, it could be financial chaos. Look for the chaos in your life, and there you'll find the need for a healthy boundary.

And you know, my big question when I started this whole process is, is God okay with boundaries? So I sat down with my theologian in residence, Joel Mutamale, who's amazing. He's actually Dr. Joel now; he's since gotten his doctorate. But we sat down and we started in Genesis. Right from the very beginning, when God is establishing the foundation of the world, he has boundaries. He separates light from darkness. They work together to form a 24-hour period, but there is a separation where one stops and another begins. That's called a boundary. He told the water, "You can come this far, but no further." That's a boundary.

Then I got over to Genesis chapter two, and I was even more astounded. The very first recorded conversation between God and man—think of all the topics God could have chosen for this first recorded conversation. And God chooses the topic of a boundary. The way God establishes the boundary with Adam is very interesting. He says, "You are free." So he establishes the boundary lines so that we know where real freedom exists. He says, "You're free to eat from any tree in the garden," so there’s plenty of provision inside the boundary. It's not like he's being overly restrictive, and it's for the sake of freedom.

Then he says, "But you must not eat from this one tree, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." And then there's a consequence. My counselor, Jim Kress, also taught me that a boundary without a consequence is nothing but a mere suggestion. So we see right from the first recorded conversation between God and man that there was a boundary established. In Genesis 2, there's one.

Then, of course, Genesis 3 happens. Sin enters in. And what does sin bring? Chaos. And where there's chaos, there's a need for more boundaries. As sin increased, chaos increased. By the time we get in the Bible to the law and the prophets, there are over 600 boundaries. Why? Because, like I was saying to you before, you want to know where a boundary is needed in your life? Look for the chaos. Where there's chaos, where there's sin, there's chaos. And where there's chaos, there's a need for a boundary.

Speaker 3

So someone's listening, going, the chaos in my life is my husband or my wife. I know there's some thinking, well, are you saying that I should eliminate them?

Speaker 1

Well, here's a really important lesson. When I was studying how God formed the tabernacle, and eventually the temple, He allowed certain people certain access. But not all people had all access. The closer access you were granted to the Holy of Holies, the more responsibility you had to demonstrate, all the way to the high priest. When the high priest would go into the Holy of Holies once a year to make atonement for the sins of the people, his responsibility for that high level of access required a high level of responsibility. He had to be absolutely purified and cleansed. If he wasn't keeping up that high level of responsibility, he would suffer the greatest consequence and lose his life.

This gave me a little clue. The level of access I give someone in my life corresponds to the level of responsibility I need to require from them. If I'm granting someone level 10 access and they're only bringing in, on a consistent basis, about a level 3 responsibility, the distance between those level 3 and level 10 is where chaos will be found, where dysfunction will be found, and where a boundary is needed. The mistake I used to make was thinking that I needed to put a boundary on this other person.

You can have a conversation with another person and ask them to be more responsible with the access that you've granted them. However, if they are unwilling or incapable of anything above a level 3 responsibility, then putting a boundary on them using external pressure is never going to work. If you were having a cardiac event today, I would rush to you, and other people who knew CPR would rush to you as well. We would use external pressure to do chest compressions, and we could sustain your life for a little while. But at some point, if your heart doesn't beat on its own, external pressure will not sustain your life long term.

Never have you seen two friends walking around a mall, one doing chest compressions on the other, and thought, "Wow, that's a sustainable relationship," right? When we try to put external pressure of a boundary on someone who is unwilling or incapable of change, it will only increase frustration and simmering resentments in that relationship.

The wrong tactic is to try to put a boundary on them to control or manipulate them into doing what you want, which is to change and be more responsible. The right tactic is to put the boundary on myself. If they are unwilling or incapable of anything more than a level 3 responsibility, then the responsible thing for me to do is to diminish the access from level 10 down to level 3 so equilibrium can be reached.

Speaker 2

Wow, that's tricky. You've done this too, Lysa, where you have all these young women and they're in a Bible study, and some women are just so frustrated in their young marriages.

Dave and I were we almost divorced at year 10.

And so does she start pulling back her heart? When you say responsible for her, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 1

Let's take a scenario that may be kind of common in relationships: you have two people. Now, granted, any time you put two sinners together and say, "Hey, do life, manage finances, raise kids," there’s going to be dysfunction. Even the most biblical families in the Bible, I used to think, had to be free of dysfunction to be considered a biblical family. Yet, I’m so grateful that the humanity wasn’t stripped from the divinity of God's word. We see that many biblical families had dysfunction. Of course they did, because you’re throwing sinners together to do life together, right?

So instead of picking the hardest issue in the relationship, why don’t we pick one that can cause serious simmering resentments? We know that simmering resentments can lead to major dysfunction in a relationship. It’s very common for us to attract opposites. Let’s say you have a dynamic where the wife loves to be on time, and the husband has a different definition of being on time.

Speaker 3

The husband's always really slow getting out of the house.

Speaker 1

Yes, yes.

Speaker 3

This is one of our things.

Speaker 1

He loves to be more creative with his time. Right now, the wife, her definition of being on time is that she wants to get there 15 to 20 minutes early. And there's a whole reason she wants to get there early. She wants to scope out where the bathroom is. She wants to get something like some water to drink. She wants to go check out the merch tables or wherever they're at. Right? She wants to get the lay of the land, get it all situated, get the seat that she wants. Okay? So being on time to her is 15 to 20 minutes early.

Being on time to him is, hey, as long as we scoot into that conference before the last praise song finishes, then we're on time. Okay? So when they're riding together to this event, somebody's gonna lose because either they're gonna do his definition of being on time, which is her definition of being late, and she's gonna sit there and feel again, more simmering resentments happening. Because he always makes me late. He always makes me late. And I know we're not supposed to talk in extremes, but that is what can happen in your brain. It's like, he made me late. Here, here, here. He's always late. He's always going to make me late. And that simmering frustration and resentment can really do a lot of damage.

But what can happen is to have a conversation where the wife says, hey, I want to let you know that it is really important to me when we go to a conference, we go to church on Sunday morning, whatever. It's really important to me to be there 20 minutes early. That's my issue. And I'm not going to try to control you and what time you arrive. But I'm saying to better manage my issues, I am going to pull out of the driveway at 8 a.m. and if we're both in the car, fantastic. We can ride together. If we're not both in the car, no big deal. We'll drive separately. I'll get there. I'll save you a seat. I'll get you some water. And we will sit there and we will do the event together.

But it just means because we have different definitions of being on time doesn't make you wrong and me right or me wrong and you right. It just means we're different. And that's okay. That's how that can go. And so boundary conversations don't have to be like this big dramatic, awful thing like do I want to stay married or not stay married? You know, because oftentimes it's these undercurrent issues that really do so much wear and tear that when the bigger issues come up, everything feels big. I'm convinced more relationships die not because we try to have boundary conversations and they don't go well, but because there are conversations that desperately needed to be had that are never had.

Speaker 2

We're Ann and Dave Wilson. You're listening to Family Life Today. And oh, that last part that Lisa just said about having conversations that need to be had.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I don't want to have those conversations, but we need to have those conversations. It's never easy, but she is so right.

Speaker 2

My problem is I want to have a mic every second.

Speaker 3

I know, and that's why I'm going to play some basketball right now.

Hey, by the way, you can get her book. It's a great book: *Good Bad Boundaries and Goodbyes*. Just go to familylifetoday.com; we have a link there in the show notes.

I'd say buy yourself a copy and maybe a few for your friends because this is a topic that rarely is talked about. It's critical.

Speaker 2

Family Life Today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.