FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

Three years into our marriage, I get a phone call from a mysterious woman who tells me your husband is having an affair with a woman at work. And she hangs up.

When you look at the Navarro house, we were a fixer upper. God really came in and restored the ruins of our marriage.

Speaker 2

If you've lost hope, he's the God of resurrection. He resurrected this marriage. He can resurrect yours. All right, we got Tony lamari Navarro finally in the studio.

Speaker 3

Finally. We're here.

Speaker 1

We're excited.

Speaker 4

I feel like we know you guys so well because we've done a weekend to remember with you.

Speaker 2

I don't remember where. Where was it?

Speaker 3

I don't know either. It was at some banquet.

Speaker 1

Everything's a blur. But I think it was Texas.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 3

Yeah, maybe it was Texas.

Speaker 2

San Antonio.

Speaker 4

San Antonio.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that was it.

Speaker 1

It's all coming back now.

Speaker 2

And God showed up. But you guys do so many to remember. So, like, how many a year we do about, man?

Speaker 3

Seven. Seven to eight a year. Oh, wow. Seven to eight a year. So I'd say, yeah, we travel more than I thought we would travel at this time in our life.

Speaker 4

It was cool for us to get to know you, but also to get to know your story, because you have a pretty remarkable story of what God has done. And, Tony, you were saying as you walked into the studio, like, this feels crazy that we're here. Why is that?

Speaker 3

Well, because in 2002, we attended a weekend to remember. It was called "I Still Do." I think it was a conference.

Oh, you were attending the conference? Yeah, we went there as an attendee.

And I remember it was Dennis Rainey Crawford, the Ritz.

Speaker 2

Dennis who? Founder and president of Family Life, in case you don't know. Yes, Crawford, the Ritz.

Speaker 3

Crawford of the Ritz.

Speaker 2

Unbelievable. Mentor of ours. Yeah.

Speaker 3

Who else was there? Maria Thik, who was Bob.

Speaker 1

Bob Lepine.

Speaker 3

Yeah, Bob Lapine was there.

Speaker 1

Bob who?

Speaker 3

And it was just. I remember, though, going there. We were at the place of divorce, though. I mean, we were coming out of something that really devastated our marriage. It's about 18 months of us, like, constantly fighting and trying to get over this, trying to move on to the next step. So we were at a place where we really needed help.

One of the elders at the church actually told us, "You should go to this event." They were advertising it through the radio—Moody Bible, you know, 90.1. And so we go, not expecting what’s going to happen here. I'd never seen so many couples. I'd never been to an event like this, never been to any kind of counseling or anything like that for marriages.

So we're there, and we're seeing all these marriages, and then they're starting to share about God's plan for marriage, about communication, about sex—I mean, about a lot of different topics. We left there very hopefully, and we actually were holding hands, like, leaving.

Speaker 4

Lamari Were you surprised of how you felt afterwards leaving? Did you feel hope? What were you feeling?

Speaker 1

I felt hope. I felt like we had tools to do marriage.

Speaker 4

Right.

Speaker 1

We didn't have examples growing up. And so we left that weekend with, yeah, just a renewed sense of fight for our marriage.

One of the things that really, I put my stake in the ground was I was going to stop using the word divorce. I felt like that was really what the Holy Spirit prompted in me because I was using that word a lot. I say I like to use it. I like to use it like a credit card.

It was accruing a lot of credit, and it was deteriorating our marriage at the time when we were trying to restore. And so I left there, yeah, saying, this is it.

Speaker 2

Well, we have to rewind. We have to go back.

Speaker 4

But let me say. But Toni, for you, that when you sat down, you thought, it's crazy that we're here.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's crazy that we're here. From sitting at the place that helped our marriage so much. Like, indirectly, like, it wasn't like, all right, we went to a weekend to remember. We're gonna now, you know, join family life. But we. We. You use half of our rent that day. We bought homebuilders. I think it was called home builders at the time.

And so we tried slopping it up, you know, in our basement and inviting other couples to come by and to learn what we were learning. But to be here to hear the voices that were on the radio. I used to listen on my truck. I was a truck driver. For a moment, I would just listen, park at my truck, listen on the radio, and listen to Dennis and Bob talk about all these different things, different hosts, people that they had on the show.

So there was. I was sharing with somebody. It was almost like they were indirectly discipling me.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 3

You know, and we still going. Yeah. And so. And it still does that today. Like, all the resources that we have here and the people that you get to interview, it just. It gives you another layer of, like, wow, I didn't know that. And now I do. And so there's a sort of accountability as well.

But yeah, it's just kind of like a full circle moment for us and we're just like blown away. We've never been to crew and get a chance to see that as well. So we were just like, wow, babe, we're part of something so big. It's like.

Speaker 4

And that's what God does.

Speaker 2

And you know, we didn't know your story until we did that first weekend, remember, as your co-speakers in San Antonio. We sat in the back of the room, talking, you know, about Tony Lamari, and then we were like, whoa, oh my goodness.

Then we got your book. I mean, it's not out yet, but it's coming out right now when this show airs. It's coming out. So we have the manuscript. When Ann and I read it, we were like, you guys are really good writers. I don't know if anybody's told you that, but you are. I mean, we knew the story, but it's captivating.

And so here's the title: *Ruin to Renewal: Restoring Your Marriage After Trust is Broken*. Well, we just found out something happened in the title. And by the way, you can go to familylifetoday.com; in the show notes there, we'll have a link that you can buy their book.

So let's start at the beginning. We sort of got a little bit later, but start with how you met, how it started. Give us the *Ruin to Renewal* story.

Speaker 1

Yeah, so we, we grew up in the same neighborhood. I would see him on and off on public transportation. Kind of had a crush on him from afar.

Speaker 4

Oh, Tony.

Speaker 1

I thought he was really good looking and charming. And he had like this mole right over, up, right above his lip. He still has it. He just hides it with his mustache now. I just thought he was really cute.

We had similar friends, but we would not really get to know each other for years until we started dating. During our dating season, we broke up. In between that time of breaking up, I ended up being a single mom. I got pregnant at 17 years old.

Speaker 2

You were living Chicago.

Speaker 1

We were in the heart of Chicago. So we like to call ourselves Hood Hearts. Yeah, we're from the neighborhood, right?

Speaker 3

Inner city. Blocks away from each other.

Speaker 1

Inner city of Chicago.

Speaker 2

Please tell me you're not Bears fans.

Speaker 3

Die hard Bears fan. I believe that. Navy blue and orange.

Speaker 4

But you guys, where was. Was there any faith going on in your lives or your family? Nothing.

Speaker 3

No, I mean, like she said Keisters. Where Priesters where we would go to our. Our church forever.

Speaker 2

We know you well. I pastored forever.

Speaker 1

We know your type.

Speaker 3

It was more of the. Of a Catholic background, though. And so I didn't have any idea what Christians, in a sense, were.

So we weren't living a life to honor the Lord or any of that. We were kind of just in that city life or inner city life where we were playing house.

I mean, she was pregnant when we got back together again.

Speaker 4

Hit that for a second. Just like, what was that like, being 17 years old and being pregnant.

Speaker 1

Scary part of our. My story was that I was actually laying on an abortion table about to take the life of my son, when his little hand popped up from my belly and it stopped the procedure. And they found out I was a little farther than I was. And so God literally saved my son from that.

I was just a scared teenage girl, afraid to tell her mom. I told my mom she was a single mom. She was brokenhearted. But my mom helped me raise my son for the first year of his life.

And then Tony and I reconnected. So I was very terrified. I didn't even like kids. You know, when I got pregnant, I was young, naive.

Speaker 4

Lamari think about that. I mean, you're on the table and you get off because your son moved and poked you.

Speaker 1

Yeah, your son.

Speaker 2

Does he know.

Speaker 1

He knows his story. And he's a miracle. Even his story is a miracle. And so I say he was fighting for his life. He's like, no, not today, Mom.

Speaker 4

What a gift from God that was. And you guys didn't even really. You weren't following him. But God's like, I'm with you.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah. God's hand. We can see the evidence of God's hand throughout our whole life. So even when we look back, it's like God has been merciful. He's been kind to us. Even that.

And then, you know, 17. We get together when I'm 18, and then we get into a serious relationship, and he helps raise that little boy because his dad was not in his life.

Speaker 4

And you didn't have any hesitation, Tony?

Speaker 3

I did because, I mean, I didn't know what I was doing, you know? And it seems like when we broke up that first time, we both went in different directions, but I think in the same direction. I started to really get involved with drugs, started to hang around. I like what Lecrae says, I was like a hangbanger. I was just hanging around with all the bad influences at the time, really getting to a place where I wasn't even believing I was going to live past my 20s, because in a neighborhood, you just don't live very long or you get locked up.

And so I was living a life that wasn't a place where a kid should be or a woman should be. And so when we were living together, we had to make some changes. But I still was struggling with the addiction. I was still struggling with a different mindset. Lamari was invited to a church.

Speaker 2

I remember at the weekend. Remember how you said her name?

Speaker 3

Yeah. Limati.

Speaker 2

You say it in such a different way.

Speaker 1

She's the only one that pronounces it that way. And I don't have the heart to. To correct him. And it's now it's kind of a sweet. Now it's sweet. Now it's grown on me.

Speaker 2

I'm like, over here. Like, did I show you?

Speaker 3

No, no.

Speaker 4

You said, she's pretty.

Speaker 2

I like it.

Speaker 3

Or I call her limo. But so we were living with each other, basement apartment, two kids at the time. She gets invited to church.

Speaker 4

Wait, so you guys had a baby?

Speaker 1

Yeah, so now I'm pregnant with his son.

Speaker 4

Whoa.

Speaker 1

We're living together.

Speaker 2

How old's your first son?

Speaker 1

So our son at the time, he's what, a one who? One and a. One and a half. One and a half.

Speaker 4

When you got very young.

Speaker 1

When I got pregnant. All right, so by the age of 21, I'm with my second child.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 1

You know?

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So, yes, it was scary. 21, having two kids, trying to figure this all out. But she goes. She's invited to a church service. She goes to see her family celebrate Mother's Day. And then also, I think it was your cousin that was going to be baptized or something.

So anyway, she goes and she keeps going. She keeps going to this church. And I'm thinking, well, she's out of the house, she's out of my hair. She's taking the kids. So life's good, right? I'm going to let that keep happening.

Speaker 4

So even at that point, you guys weren't doing that great.

Speaker 3

No, no, no, no. We were very toxic, dysfunctional to each other.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And again, we needed answers, but we weren't necessarily looking for them. But lamardi started to get answers when she started visiting the church, and God really started to do a change in her dramatically.

Speaker 4

Why did you go to church, Lamar?

Speaker 1

So I was bribed. I did not want to go to church. I was not a churchgoer. A cousin of mine said they were going to be honoring the mothers on Mother's Day. My mom and my sister had been attending this church, and I was living my life. I was still partying, doing all these things, but I was young and living it up. She invited me to church and said I had to go because they were going to honor my mom. So I went there reluctantly.

It was for the first time I heard the gospel, and my heart was pricked. I came back a second time because my cousin, who was also from the inner city and had been involved in drug dealing and gang banging, had transformed. He said, "I want you to come and hear me share my story." When he shared his story, he mentioned that it was like God took all his pain and squished it like a grape. I sat in that pew thinking, "Well, I want all my pain squished like a grape."

I heard the gospel for the first time and learned how Christ loved me and died for me. I sat in the pew thinking, "Do you know where I've been and the things that I've done? There's no way you can forgive me." But I thought to myself, "Well, if you're willing to forgive, then I'm willing to come to you." I remember walking up to the altar crying, with my high heels making noise. I think I was the only one that went up, and I was crying to the Lord. For the first time in my life, I felt peace. I felt love. I felt forgiven. I was transformed. I was in love with God.

When I went home, it was in stark contrast to what I was reading and learning from the pulpit.

Speaker 4

What did you say to Tony when you went home?

Speaker 1

I said, I mean, I came home, and I was like, I gave my life to Jesus. And he's like, that's great. As long as it don't interrupt his life, right? Yeah, you can go to church. And he would still be doing his thing, getting high, hanging out with buddies, doing his stuff.

And I. I'm here. I am praying for him, crying out for him. I have people, I have the church praying for him and fasting for him, and he wouldn't come to church.

And then I said, you know, we've been living in sin, and we need to stop having sex or I need to leave you or you marry me. And all of a sudden, this God interrupted his sex life. And so that changed everything.

Speaker 4

Okay, Joni, we have to hear, like, what's going on in your head?

Speaker 3

Well, yeah, I'm thinking everything was okay until she said that.

Speaker 4

And I'm like, you didn't care if she's a church?

Speaker 3

She's like, "We're not having sex tomorrow." I'm like, "What?" And she's trying to explain why. And I'm like, "That's crazy. It doesn't say that." I mean, because I'm thinking, this is not normal. You know, people do that, right?

So I told her, "Well, I'm going to go to church then," because I wanted to see what this pastor was talking about. I wanted to talk to this guy and figure out what is this guy talking to my girlfriend, brainwashing her with nonsense stuff, right?

So we go that next Sunday, and we end up going together. I still remember how it literally was. For the first time, I was standoffish. I didn't want anybody touching me. Don't give me no handshakes. Don't hug me. Just leave me alone. Where do I have to sit?

So she sits down, and I'm like, "I want to sit in the back." She's like, "Come sit in the front." I'm like, "I don't want to sit in the front." And so we sit, like, in the middle. It was like we were having an argument about where to sit.

Speaker 2

Like, I don't want to go all.

Speaker 3

The way to the front. And so you sit in. And it's a small church, but, yeah, for the first time, I heard the gospel. Like, I didn't know this is what the Bible said. I didn't know that Jesus, like, died for me. Right? I didn't know that there's this thing called grace and mercy and a second chance and life, and that the Word gives us how to live for the Lord.

And so I'm crying out of anger, grabbing the pew as he's, like, asking for those that, I mean, they're doing, like, altar calls then, you know, like.

Speaker 2

Yeah, come to the front.

Speaker 3

Come to the front. And I'm. I'm squeezing it, angry and crying because I'm, like, feeling like something's wrong right now.

Like, really, really wrong. Like, either this is a liar or this is right. And I started feeling emotional, and I wasn't a crier.

The Marty. Can you remember when I would cry? And so I was just.

Speaker 1

Now he cries all the time.

Speaker 3

Really feeling. Yeah, really feeling this turmoil within me. And so I don't go up and I see the pastor afterward, give him a bit. He gives me a big hug, and I'm just kind of like, stiff like a log, like, whatever. Like, receiving this love from this man. I left, though, with an impression that I maybe need to relook at this again. I need to come back.

A few months went by, long conversations, talking to different people. I came to a place of like, I surrender, man. Everything I'm doing right now hasn't been working. And I know that you are the true Christ. I was so scared because I don't remember three years not being high. Every single day, I was thinking, this is a lie of, like, you're not gonna make it. You know, how are you gonna get through the day without it? Why are you gonna go up there and say those things or go to the front? You're gonna still get high.

And I tell you this because it doesn't happen for everybody. But the taste for it left, really. I didn't have the draw. I didn't have sicknesses in that sense. I mean, I had habits still—the way that I processed, the way I was deceptive in my daily routines of what I did around Limati in the home. But for the first time, like, peace. I didn't feel angry anymore. It was just, like, I really felt like the Lord was drawing me towards him in his presence.

Right. And so that started off, and that's where we were months later. It was like three months later. We're like, we're getting married. Right. And they didn't say, like, just because you're living with each other, you get married. No, they walked with us and said, this is what the Bible says. This is what you guys are doing.

Speaker 4

So you guys are getting discipled.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And it's like, this is the next steps that you need.

Speaker 2

And I guess the sex thing was cut off.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it was. We stopped, and then I. It was my conviction as well. And we said, well, until we get married, we won't have sex then. Right.

Speaker 2

What do you. What do you tell couples today? I mean, we got to go back to your story, but pause and say, okay, there's a couple of days. Like, I still think that's stupid.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

What do you say to them? Like, no, this is why God says you should wait till you're married.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I think one of the things is they're missing out on the blessing of marriage. And we talk about this idea of obedience to the word of God. We have to align not to what we think or what culture's teaching, but what does God say? Because he's the final authority.

So we try to walk people through that. We had a couple that we were walking with just even recently and doing premarital with them, and they were living together. I sat down with her and said, "Hey, if he's not willing, it's time for you to leave." Even because God was doing a work in her, she needed to take a strong stance.

That's where I was at. I knew God was doing something dramatic inside of my life. This one area was a level where the Holy Spirit was telling me, "Lee, Maria, I need you to stop. I need you to obey me and watch what I could do." He used that to actually bring Tony to Jesus.

Speaker 4

Yeah, Tony, like you, I was crying. And you're emotional too, as you recall that even that you could. Your fear of not being able to get through a day without some sort of a high. Why does that make you emotional?

Speaker 3

I feel emotional because of the fact that there are other people like me that are stuck in that everyday cycle. And the fear of the unknown or the fear of failure, again, like they're going to let themselves down. Because you've tried this, you know, I mean, a lot of times when it comes to addiction, somebody's tried already multiple times to break it. Whether that's substance or porn or whatever it is you're going to try on your own efforts to do it.

And so I didn't want to let Lamonti down. I didn't want to let these people down. I didn't want this to be some sort of. And I really wanted out. I wanted to be there and present with my family. But I was very angry. I was very angry as well. And so I was kind of medicating myself with a lot of different things. Like, that was just kind of how I was coping with what was the.

Speaker 2

What was the anger grew up in.

Speaker 3

In. In the neighborhood that we grew up in. It was kind of like wearing anger was kind of your T shirt.

Speaker 4

It was a badge of honor.

Speaker 3

Come across like, like, like, like angry, tough. And then, I mean, there were obviously things in my own home as well that I can look back now and see certain points in my life growing up in my household where the seed of anger really had soil to have its fruit come out in my life.

So being quick and using that as fuel for reputation and all that kind of stuff in the neighborhood, but I didn't know how to turn it off. And so when we would get together, we have arguments, it just exploded. I mean, I’m physically damaging things. Not hitting the Mahdi, but just like, just the way that I cope with life.

It was always that to do anything was like to muster up the anger and to get it done.

Speaker 4

So it had been like an armor probably most of your life.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Like. And who would you be without the anger and then the drugs to help that subside?

Speaker 1

Yeah. It's interesting because I think about this idea of an armor. And when the armor was gone, Tony became so tender.

He's still very tender. There's a part of him that's so tender with our kids growing up, tender with me. It was like he was hiding behind this thing that was really destroying him.

And it was learned. You know, it's generational as well. Yeah, things we've had to fight. So, yeah, I've just. He's come a long way from that.

Speaker 2

I mean, was that something you saw dissipate right. After coming to Christ because the drugs did? I mean, that was moments of it. Yeah.

Speaker 3

Moments where there would be, like, times where I really felt waking up, you know, like, wow. You know, you ever wake up and it's just like you actually hear birds? Even though you're living in, like, the city, there's like, oh, I do hear birds. I don't just hear something else. Gunshots. But I mean, it's just like a piece.

Right. And so. But then there are obviously moments where you're just feeling more of an attack and just the season of like, spurts of anger or something.

Speaker 4

So wait, guys, so what were all your friends? Because your friends are probably like a tough group and they partying. What are they thinking? What has happened to these guys?

Speaker 1

You know what's interesting? There were so many of our friends coming to know Jesus as a result of the transformation that was happening in our lives.

We even had a young man call us, like at 11 o'clock, and I called him. He was on a really bad high and he went to some other guys and said, "We don't know how to help you. But Tony, Tony Navarro, like, he can help you."

So he shows up at our house, we're praying for this guy. We're telling him, "Get rid of your drugs." He gives his life to Jesus, he gets married.

And those are the kind of stories that were happening around us because of the transformation that was happening in us that people were witnessing.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's what's supposed to be.

Speaker 1

That's pretty cool.

Speaker 3

That's it.

Speaker 2

You're called the ministry. The day you're called.

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 2

So you get married.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And how'd that go?

Speaker 1

So it, it went well for the first couple years.

Speaker 3

Very budget friendly.

Speaker 1

Yeah. We get married, we're doing well, as much as, as good as we possibly can. Again with the things that were handed to us. One idea that we have is that, you know, we bring all these things into our marriage from our, you know, what we've learned, experiences, some of the ways that we deal with things, you know, all our baggage, all our baggage.

I think it's Pete Cesario who says, "Jesus may be in my heart, but grandpa's in my bones." Right? So you get those parts of you that you bring into marriage that trickle into the narrative of your marriage.

And so, as much as we were now new Christians, there was still a lot of areas of surrender that God was still getting at. And so, three years into our marriage, now we're serving, we're doing Sunday school, we're serving in children's ministry.

Speaker 2

Sitting in the front row.

Speaker 1

Sitting in the front row.

Speaker 3

We were sitting in front. We've been sitting in a front row now for a lot of years.

Speaker 2

I like the front row people.

Speaker 1

I love the front row. There's nothing like the front row. That's where the fire is at. And so we know and so we're, we're growing in our faith.

And then three years into our marriage, we had become like ships in the night. Yeah, I was working at night. Now we have three kids. He's working, so we're kind of tag teaming. He's coming in, I'm leaving. He's leaving, I'm coming in. And so we had drifted.

Speaker 3

Yeah, before that too. So I needed to get a career because what I was doing was not going to be a career. And so getting now after that, I said, listen, buddy, I should go back to school or do something. So I went into the trade. And so that took me out of the loop for a while. Did that for 18 months. Really did well with that too. And took on two jobs. So I was working another job, two small jobs like restaurants and working at a, at a shop as well. Working on tires and brakes and stuff like that. So it took me out of the community. I wasn't consistent anymore. And still new believer. It's still trying to figure this all out. But I felt really good about the fact that I was making traction. And then I landed this good job that I was like, wow, babe, I think that this can be the one that you can stay home. I can bring home enough and you can just raise the kids. But ended up. There were a lot of temptations that I was not able to process. And me drifting away, really getting cold to the things of God, not practicing. You know, I would call my disciplines. Right. In a sense, reading the Word, having time with God, obeying. It was just kind of get up and go and then try to make it to the next event.

Speaker 4

Isn't that interesting, though, how we don't understand the impact of just those daily disciplines or. But you're saying, like, and we all get busy. That can happen to every single one of us, and it does happen to all of us. But you felt. Did your heart got a little colder and distant?

Speaker 3

Because we went from, like, being so active.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

To now becoming not so active. And she was still, you know, very active in the church.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And so for me, I always felt like I was coming from behind now, having to try to catch up. And she was growing in the word, she was growing in her prayers. And I felt like, wow, I don't even know how to pray like you do, you know, you just do. But I felt good about the fact that, like, I was bringing home and providing. Right. And then overtime opportunities came, so I'm taking on those opportunities as well. And so we saw the drift. The drift was there. We were definitely drifting from each other. I was drifting, though, from the Lord. She at least was still connected in that way, but. But we were, like she said, like going in, tag teaming. You take this shift, I take the next. And not really growing this marriage together.

Speaker 1

And. And we had three kids at the time, and our youngest was. He was 18 months. And so, yeah, our marriage was. I thought it was okay, but it was shaky. And so three years into our marriage, I get a phone call from a mysterious woman who calls me, who tells me, your husband, Tone Marcos, because that's what they call him at work. That's his actual name. His nickname is Tony. Everyone calls him Tony. People at work call him Marcos. So my friends, the family life, she or she tells me, your husband Marcos is having an affair with a woman at work. And she hangs up.

Speaker 2

She just called, said that and hung up.

Speaker 1

And just hung up. And you know who it was? Have you ever heard, to this day, I don't know who it is. It was a mysterious phone call. I'd never hear from her again.

Speaker 4

So how old were your kids at that point?

Speaker 1

So four, six. And our youngest was 18. 18 months.

Speaker 4

What'd you feel in that second?

Speaker 1

I call it the wrecking ball. That wrecking ball came swinging into our marriage, and I was left with pieces. And so I called Tony immediately at work, and I said, you have about 15 minutes to get home. I just got this phone call, and you have to explain yourself, or I will show up to your job with all three of your kids. So, like, my hood Latina came out. I was like, you got some splaining to do. Rick, though. So he showed up to the house, and in our kitchen, he told me, I'm not having an affair, but I've fallen out of love with you. And that is some of the hardest things to hear from the man that you love. So I grab our kids, and I leave, and I go to the place where I feel safest, and I go to my pastor's office, and I call Tony from there, and I tell him, if you want to salvage what's left of our marriage, show up to our pastor's office. And this. This was the beginning of our. I. You know, we call it the demo day, where everything came crashing down in our marriage.

Speaker 4

Tony, when. When you were called at work, what did you think?

Speaker 3

I kind of describe it like, life stopped, Couldn't feel. She's on the other side of the phone telling me, get home. Somebody told me that you're having an affair with somebody at work.

Speaker 1

Work.

Speaker 3

Right away, your first initial response for me was like, I want to deny it. Right? And so. But I don't know what to do. I'm just kind of like, everything. My heart dropped. Everything is about to change right now. And so I get home, I leave, I get home, and I'm still denying it. Like, I'm trying to, like, damage control, trying to figure if I can get out of this without damaging too much. And that's all I. I'm falling in love with you. And that's Was part of the process, but it was kind of like hiccups of truth coming out. But when I get to the pastor's office, he's encouraging me to. Tony, get it all out, man.

Speaker 4

Tell her everything.

Speaker 3

Yeah, just. Just get out.

Speaker 1

He knew. Our pastor knew.

Speaker 3

Yeah. This is a pastor's first rodeo, right? He's. He's been in a lot of. With a lot of marriages in his office.

Speaker 4

Were you afraid of lamari?

Speaker 3

Yeah, I was afraid of Lamont.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

We're still new believers. We're still new believers. It wasn't like, everything is, but. And I just. I knew that, like, it can get really ugly quick, but I felt safe with my pastor. Pastor was kind of like my second dad, you know, he was yeah, he came in a pivotal time in my life when I didn't have a role model like that. And just the way that he was very patient with me at times. But, but he said, he said, tony, just, just get it out there. Are you having an affair or not? And I said, yeah, I had an affair. Right. But I, it was still just. I wanted to make it seem like it was maybe one time. Like I'm just, like, it just had an affair. But the minute I said that, the Maria already falls to the floor and she's, she's just crying, you know, and he's just sitting behind his chair just like observing us both. I'm like about to cry too, but I'm just worried about what's going to happen next, you know, like, is she going to get up and beat me or what is she going to do? I mean, she is tough. She said some things after that, though, that really changed the direction of where we were going to go.

Speaker 2

I mean, when you heard him say yes.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Because before he said no.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And you probably thought, well, maybe he's true. But there. And he now says it.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

What happened?

Speaker 1

I collapsed to the ground. I was crying. I felt like there was a lot of questions in my head, like, when who? Like, what were you thinking? And so I'm here crying on the floor, and I immediately get up, wipe my tears, and I look at our pastor and I says, doesn't the Bible say this is means for a divorce?

Speaker 4

Oh, those are your first words.

Speaker 1

Those were my first words. And I had told Tony before, if you ever cheat on me, we're done. I saw my mom get hurt by men. I wasn't going to be that person. And so our pastor looked at me with so much wisdom, and it's almost like he could see for miles and generations what could happen with this decision. And at that moment, he says, you're right, Limari. You do have the right to divorce him. But there's another option. The other option is grace. And he said those words. And I could feel myself go back to the moment that 21 year old girl who came to the altar, who was broken. And I thought about the word grace and how it literally found me, you know, dying in a pew. And I looked at Tony and I said, I choose grace. And those three words just came out. And I know it was the Holy Spirit saying the words and living them. That was two different things. But right there I was able to say, I choose grace. And our pastor said, both are going to be hard. One is Going to require you sticking it out, working through the junk. And the other can devastate your family, your children. Both are going to be hard, but you have a choice today. And so that moment, I said, I choose Grace.

Speaker 2

Tony, what'd you think?

Speaker 3

Well, I had already reasoned that I was gonna probably move my things out of the house and go out of the apartment and start living with a family member, my mom or somebody, and be the weekend dad when she had. When she left. After we had that conversation at the house, I got a chance to walk around the apartment and just look at. I messed this all up. Messed it all up, and I never wanted my kids to go through that.

Speaker 2

So you're thinking I'm going to lose all this.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Every room, every bed, every.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Everything we went through for the last three years. And so. Which was a lot for. For what we were going through. And then when I get a chance to hear that, I'm like, what? She's gonna give me grace? And we share in the book. I said it wasn't just a word I heard or something theological. It was like a blanket or coat that I needed, I was wrapped around. But I was just like, wow, what's. What's happening right now? Like, what's going to happen here? Like, that's not Lamadi. That's not the lamari that I married. She would never do that. And so for her to say that, it was. It blew me away, but it also, like, stopped my thoughts of, like, wait, maybe we're going to get through this, right? Maybe. Yeah, there's hope. And so although it was just like, again, we. She just said it. We haven't got a chance to even live it out. But. But if I'm going home tonight, I'm like, that's something I never knew that was going to happen. You know, that I'm going to be able to go home and stay in my. My home with my wife and kids.

Speaker 4

So what happened?

Speaker 1

So after that, I mean, I made that decision, and then the. The work behind that came.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And he told me it happened once, but. But all the revelation of the. Of the affair started to come out. In fact, it came out through a dream. I. I was. I had a dream that I saw the other woman, how she looked. She tells me in the dream how long it had been happening, that she was in love with my husband.

Speaker 4

Come on.

Speaker 1

And I wake up and I turn to him and I tell him the dream, and he's like, what?

Speaker 3

I thought she was a witch.

Speaker 1

And he's like, I was like, that's.

Speaker 3

Just never heard of me before.

Speaker 1

But when I say, was it accurate?

Speaker 3

It was accurate.

Speaker 1

Accurate to the T. Spot on.

Speaker 3

Even.

Speaker 2

What she looked like.

Speaker 1

Everything. Yeah, everything that.

Speaker 4

Did that scare you, Tony?

Speaker 3

What's going on here? Like, seen this in movies, but I've never, like, heard about this, though.

Speaker 2

So did you own it then? Like, okay.

Speaker 3

No, I was like, yeah. I was like, that's a crazy dream. Yeah. There, you know, shouldn't I had tacos last night? But she was, like, spot on. And I was just like, wow. Like, God is telling on me here. I know.

Speaker 4

Seriously.

Speaker 3

Seriously. And again, it was like she had, like, certain things. Like, this is the way I heard her. Like, her hair color, the car color kind of car. It was like, how long has it been happening? Wow.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 4

So did that make it worse for you, Amari?

Speaker 1

He told me I was wrong. I lay down, but the Holy Spirit is like, there's more. And so I just began to pray. I said, God, whatever is done in darkness, bring it to the light. Bring it to the light. And so when everything finally came out, he was on. He was. We were at a. At a business meeting. He walks out to the parking lot and is on his phone. He doesn't know I'm behind him. I grabbed the phone, and when I listen, I see. I hear her voice. And she had left the voicemail. And she begins to tell everything. And he's trying to.

Speaker 4

What does that mean? What she's telling.

Speaker 1

She's telling him, I love you. Let's, like, don't throw all this away. We've been doing this for this long. You said you cared for me. I mean, she's crying on the phone, and my heart is. When I say, wrenched. I couldn't get her voice out of my head. And I looked at him, and I looked at. I pointed at the sun, and I said, tony, everything you do comes to the light. Live in the light. And I walked away. We had gotten into a really bad argument. There was a lot going on. Everything is finally out. Memorial Day, 2000. This was the day, a couple days after. We're fighting like cats and dogs. I mean, revelations are coming out. Things are coming out. I mean, just so much triggered. I am, like, highly triggered. But I've had a moment where the Lord is telling me, surrender, surrender. And I'm fighting God. We end up.

Speaker 4

Because he deserves your anger.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 4

That's probably what you're feeling.

Speaker 1

Everything in me.

Speaker 4

I would want to beat him up, you know, not really, but, yeah, kind of.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I did.

Speaker 2

She didn't say that. That's not. The views of family life today. I really wouldn't have beat up your spouse.

Speaker 4

I would not have beaten him up, but I would have wanted to.

Speaker 2

We do not advocate.

Speaker 4

We do not condone that.

Speaker 1

No. No condoning violence.

Speaker 2

But I do say grab his phone though, and find out what's going on.

Speaker 3

Yeah, grab her phone.

Speaker 2

That's a good move.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And he. He was. He was raging behind me when I grabbed the phone because everything was coming out exposed. It's exposed. And so I.

Speaker 3

Faster than I wanted it to.

Speaker 4

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

Like. Like enemy. I knew they was gonna all come out, but it was like, let me control how much comes out, guys.

Speaker 4

Like, let me take control now.

Speaker 3

Cuz the little bit that was that we were sharing the arguments that were bringing out more. We get to the point of arguing so. So bad that it was, okay, well, this happened too. Or. Yeah. Or that that was the end. So it would just add more and then it would fuel even more of the hurt. And so these. It was like there was no end to the arguments.

Speaker 1

And so I peppered him with questions.

Speaker 4

Oh, I can imagine. I can't imagine.

Speaker 1

We don't recommend now.

Speaker 4

We don't.

Speaker 1

The details.

Speaker 4

You didn't need to know the details.

Speaker 1

I didn't need the details. The details only were destroying me and causing me to get to a place of insecurity. But we. We ended up like, the Lord is trying to deal with me. I'm fighting God. We get to. It's Memorial Day weekend and we get to a church picnic. My. My cousin comes to me and she's like, limari, I have a word for you from the Lord. And I said, okay. And she's like, how are you? I'm like, I'm good. Like, I'm like fighting her. I'm skinny. I look, my hair's a mess, you know, and she's like, let's go for a walk. She walks with me and she says, this is not your battle. You cannot fight this the way you've been fighting this inhuman effort. She's like, surrender your husband to the Lord. She reads me a scripture from the. I think it's the book of Romans, where it says, vengeance is mine, says the Lord, I will repay you. Do good. And it's like heaping burning coals over your. Your. Your enemy's head. And though Tony wasn't my enemy, he sure felt like it. And so I. I was there and I surrendered him to God. I'm praying there she left me there in the forest preserve. And I began to pray. And I said, God, I surrender Tony to you. I can't do this anymore. I'm going crazy. I'm losing my mind. I said, but, God, if I were you, here's what I would do. This was my last opportunity.

Speaker 4

I've added a few prayers like that. If I were you, God, here's a good idea for me.

Speaker 1

I have a great idea, God. And I said, but, God, this is your sheep. And he's wandered from the flock. Break his leg so that he never wanders again. And put him over your shoulder until he knows your sweet voice and never wanders from you again. In Jesus name, amen. And I go to Tony, I'm like, I surrender you to the Lord. I'm gonna stop fighting with you. And he's like, good, because you're driving me crazy. And then right there, we're on a basketball court, we're playing basketball. And off to the side of the field are people playing softball. And a friend of ours or cousin of ours says, hey, I'm gonna go get some food. Tony, cover for me. And I said, go ahead, you could cover for him. I start going with my cousin to the food area. Before we even arrive, someone runs to me and they said, your husband? And I said, he broke his leg. And they said, how did you know? And I said, praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. So Tony doesn't like this part of the story. I come over to Tony. He is on the softball field.

Speaker 2

So you ran into a guy, right?

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

In the game and broke your leg?

Speaker 1

Like.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it was. And it was. It was crazy because I'm thinking it was a slow, kind of like setting for a movie where it's a fly ball, it's coming over third. Third base. And I'm in the outfield, and I see it just, like, staying up there. Like if I gotta pause it for me to run up to it, right? And as I'm running up to it, I'm thinking again, this is my community, which I just. Now I'm Tony the cheater. You know, like, they're going through it. Tony got. Got caught cheating. So I'm thinking, I'm going to save the day. You know, the mighty just forgave me. The church thinks I'm a cheater now. I'm going to be a hero. I'm going to catch this ball, and the minute I go to touch it, I run into somebody else. And when I wake back up, well, I didn't wake up. But when I looked up, I saw my leg poning in the other direction, and I felt the pain, and I'm just like, screaming. And I heard her voice a little shortly afterward and really felt like. I don't know, I felt like this was an opportunity God had for Reese to get out of this situation because I was having moments of truth. But in the field of lies, I mean, the last months of what I was doing and stuff, and so I felt like this was the first time I could even stop and have a pause on everything and be able to reestablish in this season my relationship with the Lord. I mean, again, not only was I drifted from the mighty, I was drifting from God.

Speaker 1

So it's like, stop the hiding.

Speaker 4

You can't run anymore.

Speaker 3

Exactly. And then dealing with the arguing, doing it, like, in a natural sense, just trying to, like, manage. I'm like, still hiding in all this.

Speaker 4

Protecting yourself.

Speaker 3

Yeah, protecting. And so now it was like a surrender. I'm just like, now Tony's at a place the mighty just surrendered. And shortly after, now I'm at a place of a season of surrender because I couldn't walk. It was months. I had to have another surgery after that as well. And she had to help me with everything. She had to help me go to the bathroom. She had to help bathe, to have to help me anywhere. Wherever they put me, that's where I stayed.

Speaker 4

Girl, I want you praying for me.

Speaker 2

You got this great connection with God.

Speaker 1

Breaking prayer, breaking legs.

Speaker 4

So you were broken, and you were totally.

Speaker 3

So I was broken. I was broken and broken. Yeah, yeah, broken and broken.

Speaker 2

I mean, did you finally say, okay, here's. Here's everything. Not going to hide anything anymore.

Speaker 3

Here it is. Well, when I got. When I got a little healthier than that, we started to share more as we started to talk through how things happened and what was going on and re establishing some boundaries right away, like the phone call stuff, bank accounts, all that kind of things, making it all into one in a natural sense. I mean, you would want to do that. If something like tragic happens in your family, you're going to try to do anything you can to protect the marriage much. But even through that process, we still had really bad fights. We would have moments where it felt like it's going to be good, and then moments where it was like, this is not going to work, you know, and like 18 months later is when we went to our first weekend to remember. It was in 2002.

Speaker 2

Oh, really? That was before or after? I still do.

Speaker 3

That was that Was the I Still do event. Oh, yeah, that was. I'm just calling it that for reference.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

But that was the. The I Still do event. Yeah.

Speaker 2

People don't even know. Family used to do stadium events.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

Called I Still Do. If you're like, I want to go to one of those. You can't. We don't do many. But you can go to a weekend, remember, which you guys speak at. We speak at. But the conference went to one was.

Speaker 4

Very similar to the weekend.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Probably the same content. Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So, well, we. In between that, we had just what we call, like, the messy middle, like triggers and reestablishing trust and him getting accountability. And we talk about this in the.

Speaker 4

Book, but I'm really glad because so, so many people have faced betrayal of some kind, and they don't always sit in the messy middle.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 4

We then hear the end story. We're like, oh. And so then if we get in the messy middle, we think, wait, this isn't how it goes.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 4

This isn't how it should be going. But you're saying, no, this is part of it.

Speaker 2

I mean, is this. You know, you guys are. You do home renovations.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, we do.

Speaker 2

You're famous on TV from the show. What was the show called?

Speaker 1

Battle on the Mountain.

Speaker 2

Battle on the Mountain. You should have won it.

Speaker 4

I should have won it.

Speaker 2

But you renov. And then each week we watch it, you know, you get to see who did it best. But the messy middle is this. Like you're getting the studs up, the drywall's not done. The electrical's going.

Speaker 4

I mean, see what it's going to be yet.

Speaker 1

Exactly.

Speaker 2

But it's starting to take shape.

Speaker 3

Great job with that, Dave.

Speaker 2

I love doing homestyle. I'm not good like you, but I loved it because I'm cheap. I don't want to do a. Pay some money.

Speaker 1

That's exactly how we got into it.

Speaker 3

I couldn't afford all the things the mighty really wanted, but it was. Was so in. In the messy middle. And my baby, you can share too, on it. I just wanted to say, like, when we do a project, there's times where you may have taken on something that you didn't feel like you're that qualified to finish, you know? And when everything is out, like you said, you're right in the middle. You don't know when it's going to end. It feels like you're adding on another thing and another thing and another layer, another material and all that. And in the messy middle that's kind of how it felt like. I felt like there are moments where I can see this is going to go this direction, but then there were a lot of days where it was like, this is hopeless. Let's just sell this and go start something new. Right. Because it was really. It was really hard to see through it. And even leading up to that, I still do conference. We were already now at the place, like, okay, this doesn't seem like we're getting traction in the right direction. And even with all the things that we saw happen with the late surrendering to the Lord and all that. Well, because we see Christians get divorces, too.

Speaker 1

Yeah, right.

Speaker 3

We see people that are getting divorces, too. So it's like, well, maybe then this is this.

Speaker 2

So you were actually thinking we may just end this thing.

Speaker 1

Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of like just so hard.

Speaker 2

Even after all that, it's still not working. So you know what?

Speaker 1

Because we were fighting and we were. We. We were like, in the process, in the middle of the sand. You know, the. The dust of sandpaper. When you're renovating, you're just kind of crawling over things. We were. We were trying to. God was restoring things and renovating us from the inside out. And it was hard. And there were times where I was like, I don't want to keep doing this. Like, is it. Is it always going to be this fighting and feeling like whenever we got into a fight, we were going 10 steps back. But I like to say that we don't see the progress that's happening in the process. But there's pro. There's progress in the messy middle. When you see the sandpaper and you only see the, you know, the. The drywall coming up, you know, you forget that it's a. It's going to take some time to get it to the place of making it beautiful again. And God was really getting to some heart issues in us. For me, I had to love the man who betrayed me. There were times where there was one moment where I'm driving him. He. He's, you know, he's in the back of the car. He's, you know, with his little.

Speaker 4

Scooter crunches.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I just. I'm triggered. I don't know what triggered me. I stopped the car. Pull it over. And I said, get out the car. And he's like, what? I said, get out the car. You know, just. I'm just triggered. And he's limping and he's getting out the car, and I drive off. The kids are Crying. I'm driving. I look at him through the rearview mirror, and I hear the Holy Spirit say, go back and get your husband.

Speaker 3

And I'm like, thank God for the Holy Spirit.

Speaker 1

I don't want to. I don't want to forgive him, God. And God is like, go back. And I would go back, I would just hear the Holy Spirit just showing me again, like, don't give up. Keep fighting. Keep pressing in. And. And he was doing all he could do after the. The leg and everything to rebuild trust. He had accountability. He had men in his life. He was doing everything necessary. But there was still, you know, forgiving doesn't cause you to forget. And it would take years, years for me to go, you know, look back and say, okay, the way that God did this, I can look back and say, I'd be willing to do this again, God, because you brought us through, and you are a great restorer. And so we like to say that even when you look at the Navaro house, you see the painted, you know, you know, walls and the beautiful decor, but you can never really know that behind those walls, we were a fixer upper. We really were. And God really came in and restored the ruins of our marriage. And he painted us with grace. He sanded us down with, you know, just chiseling away at character flaws inside of us. And so God brought us through a process. There is a. I don't know if there's any other questions, but that's kind of like.

Speaker 2

I mean, I was just thinking, I. I can't remember the name of the show, but you know, it on hgtv, where it's either flip the house or buy a new one.

Speaker 3

Yeah, it's love it or listed.

Speaker 4

Or listed.

Speaker 2

I love that show. I love that show.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

And it's sort of what you're describing, because I. I think there's couples listening, and they're like, do I want to love it?

Speaker 4

I know I want to leave it and go get the new thing that's listed. Yeah.

Speaker 2

You know, it's like, I'm done with him. I'm gon a better man. I'm going to find a better woman. And you were there thinking, this man has really hurt me and she hurt you, too. I think couples are right there, but Dave, and they don't know what to do. And you're saying, don't list it.

Speaker 1

Don't list it.

Speaker 2

Love it.

Speaker 4

As I'm listening to you, too, you guys. And I think this is why it's good to tell your story or write Your story or share your story, because you have these intersections where God just shows up. Big time.

Speaker 1

Time. Yeah, like really big.

Speaker 4

Kind of miraculous.

Speaker 2

Yours are pretty bigger than most people, but, Lord, break his leg. Wow. I have a dream. She looks like this. She drives this car.

Speaker 4

What in the world, Tony, I'd be so afraid if I were you, honestly. But then. But then you're raising kids and you're working and you're trying to make money. So that is life. God's intersecting us all the time, but we're still in the midst of the mess. And so for you guys to not give up, because it'd just be so easy. Even though God kept showing up, it would have been easy just to be like, eh, eh. It's just too hard.

Speaker 1

I think about this idea of we had history, we had children. I said sometimes we could be so blinded with our pain that we were emotions, and the emotions that we're like. Like, I want. I want to trade this in for a new car. But not realizing that we need a telescopic vision that sees more than what's in front of us. And there's something about. There's a scripture, Psalm 73, where the Psalmist is looking at everything around him. And he said nothing made sense until he got into the sanctuary of God and he was able to have a perspective. And I think God continued to give us sanctuary of God moments where we can see, this is bigger than you guys. This is. There's. There's something here that the enemy is after. And so we were able to fight. There's one point in our story where Tony had gone through a deep depression. He's, you know, recovering, and he tried taking his life.

Speaker 4

Tony, was that after you broke your leg?

Speaker 3

That was me being at home. Mine was running rampant with all types of stuff. I started taking a lot more of what I should with the pain medicine and all that, and just feeling useless, feeling hopeless, feeling at the place again where, like, the value of Tony is gone, like, it's depleted. Better off that I'm not here, but a Lottie, really. Even in that moment when I tried taking my life, she. She said something. I told her, I feel like a Judas, like I just betrayed everyone, betray the Lord. She's like, no, you're Peter, and God's not done with you. He's gonna build on you.

Speaker 4

Omari, take us back to when Tony's in depression, he becomes suicidal. What was going on in your head with that? Because it's when our spouse is really struggling with depression or any kind of suicidal ideation. That's. I think we don't know what to do and we feel helpless.

Speaker 1

I think for me, because I was still healing from my heartbreak. I didn't see he had slipped into a depression.

Speaker 4

You couldn't see it.

Speaker 1

I couldn't see it until I found him on that bathroom floor. And when I saw him there.

Speaker 4

So you walked in the bathroom?

Speaker 1

I walked in, he had a noose like he had blacked out and had just come to. And I saw him there and I said, what are you doing? And he's crying and he said, says I'm Judas. And. And God had given me a picture early on in our marriage, him speaking to a stadium sized room of the goodness of God. So it's almost like God gave me words and I said, you're not Judas, you're Peter. And Peter built God's church. And he came back and I, I looked at Tony, I could have knocked him down with my words. I could have destroyed the man that I loved. But for the first time I thought, thought I love this man. And as much as I can't stand him, I love him. And the enemy is a bully and he's trying to kill him. He's trying to destroy him. And I started to take my complaints to the Lord and stop taking them to Tony.

Speaker 4

That's so good.

Speaker 1

And a lot of prayer, a lot of journaling, a lot of writing out what I wanted God to do in my marriage. And I saw God's hand and, and I, and the things that. Tony was already riddled with guilt. I was just reminding him of the shame he felt.

Speaker 4

And so you're heaping it on.

Speaker 1

I was just heaping it on. And that moment, seeing him there, almost losing him, God shifted me and he said, no, we're not doing this anymore. You're going to love him. You're going to, you're going to, you know, be who I've called you to be. And I need you to pray because there's more power in prayer than in your nagging and reminders.

Speaker 3

God was still showing us no to keep going. And, and we had to, like we wanted to make it work. I don't think we had the right plan for it to work. And the big picture, like Lamadi shares a lot about, like having this telescopic and microscopic vision, but we didn't have the telescopic one. Like we didn't know, how are we going to get there? How do we get into that lens? So when we got to, when we were at the first I keep calling it the wtr, but it's. Yeah, I still do C. That. That's when we saw the bigger picture.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Like, wow, there's legacy involved. The kids are involved. The reason why, dad, you make these sacrifices is for this, the wife. How we. How we have different roles but still have the same value. I mean, how we surrender to the Lord. Right. We submit to him, wife. And I mean, all this was, like, just. It was blowing my mind. Never heard this stuff.

Speaker 4

What, like, this is the purpose.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And we were growing individually, like she was grow. Growing in her relationship with God. I started growing in my relationship with the Lord, but we still couldn't figure out how to. How to grow together, like, how to make this grow together. And so, you know, leaving there is where I really just jumped on board. And with that, and I'm like, lord, I. I'm all in, man. Like, I'm all in for this. But it really, though, that changed. That shifted something. That gave me purpose, that gave me clarity. And from there, I think it's when we really started to see strides of consistency. Right? That started to. We started having more wins than losses. And. And here. That's who we are today, guys.

Speaker 4

Talk about, like, a spiritual battle, Tony, like, God saved your life.

Speaker 3

Yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2

And even talk about the power of the tongue.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 2

Life and death in the power of tongue. Proverbs 18:21. He's here because you said you're Peter. Wives, are you hearing this? And it goes both ways, husbands. Either way, it's like, man, you have the. The ability to speak life into your.

Speaker 4

Marriage and to see the greatness. Like, in that moment, God gave you a future look, and he had already done that, giving you that vision of him speaking to so many people. And, man, when we're spending time with God, we get those. We get those pictures of our spouse. Otherwise, we have our own picture of how our spouse has failed. And that's why I think it's so critical that we're with God. We're saying, God, show me the greatness and my spouse show me the future for my spouse. You know, how about your.

Speaker 2

Your kids know the story?

Speaker 1

Yeah, they know the story.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

What's cool is we'll share our story. And our kids are like, our biggest advocates. They're like, you know what? You guys got to talk to my mom and dad. You got to hear their story. And they'll, like, send other couples to us for our kids. We've allowed our kids and, of course, age appropriately.

Speaker 4

We.

Speaker 1

How old are your kids? Now, so now we have, some of them are in the 30s.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 1

We have a 20 year old and our youngest is 22.

Speaker 4

So how many kids?

Speaker 1

We have five adult kids, two grandbabies, married 28 years.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And, and they're, they're like, they, they love to hear our story. And what it is, is you allow them to peek into the hand of God. You know, the Bible in Deuteronomy says, says, tell it to your children. Tell them, you know, pass it down, put it on your door post, you put it on your gates. And I think we've been able to share with our kids that God has brought us from some stuff, you know, and so now to see our kids walking with the Lord. They love the Lord. They, they serve in different capacities, but it's not because we hid things from them. We didn't hide our junk. We told them we were a mess, we needed Jesus. And so they, they know that, that, that we really are a. A miracle. A miracle.

Speaker 4

You've changed your entire legacy. Thinking about these two young kids in.

Speaker 2

Chicago and the legacy that was handed to you ended.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

The darkness stopped.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Cuz you said, I've been crying this whole interview. You know, another question would be, how'd you end up. Now you're speaking family life, how'd that end happen?

Speaker 3

Well, so at the church that we were serving at in Chicago, our pastors were part of the team, the speaking team. And they called us, they said, hey, we put your names in for referral and you probably were expecting a call soon or email. And so we did, we got a, we got a call and we said, yes, absolutely. But we were crying because we were like, I don't know if every speaker does that, but for us, we were crying because full circle, we were still believing, like God, you would have us now to share. And I'm not saying that anybody in the speaker team even feels that way because there's great people and they're just humble about their flaws and what God has done in their life. But for us, it was just the meaning of it. And so you said yes. And then we took about the two year part was two years for the whole. I guess I don't know what the trial period is.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

But the first year there was no training. When we joined the team, I heard.

Speaker 1

You guys got cassettes or something.

Speaker 3

We did.

Speaker 2

Literally cassettes. There was no video.

Speaker 3

Listen, that is.

Speaker 2

Put it in. Yeah.

Speaker 3

Push the button.

Speaker 2

Rewind.

Speaker 4

It was 1989.

Speaker 3

Wow.

Speaker 2

Yeah. We don't even want to know how old you Were okay.

Speaker 3

There was a lot of material and tapes back then, though. But yeah, we said yeah, yes. And. And praise God, they kept us on the team. But. But the first year we got a chance to see like, Bob Lapine and Dennis Rainey and Barbara, all the people that. Crawford Litz, all these people that kind of impacted us and don't realize, like, I mean, I know they're. They. They get responses from people, but like, like, I'm hanging on to the words you're saying. You know what I mean? Like, I'm listening and I'm doing the things that you're saying to do. And so it's just like this is. It was great. I got a chance to share some of that with Bob before he left the team. But it's just. Again, it's been like just a full circle moment from the Lord and. And again. But from the time that we started our. We went to our first love. I mean, I still do. We. Again, we were kind of just slapping it up. We wanted to just help out every couple. We saw the value of marriages and the lack of resources for marriages, and so we were just doing that. And so even at our. At our church, that we were part of just helping out the pastor there, which is great. Friends of ours as well, and they're on the speaker team. Just like, we'll work with anybody you need us to work with. You know, we'll help them out. And we're still doing that today. I mean, we're still at the local church. We believe that that's where. Yeah, it really works out. And we love the local church. We're always pushing people towards that. You said something earlier, Ann. We were talking about how. How when I drifted, I was drifting away. Was even in the daily disciplines. Right. And there's people that. That do that and still go into sin. But for me, it's not just like preventative. It's the fact that I. If I'm gonna give life, I need life.

Speaker 4

Me too.

Speaker 3

So reading from the word of life. Right? Right. That's living. It's like I need it, like, because I know, Tony.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I know where my mind goes. I know where my heart goes. I know all that. And I need this. This. If I don't have this, I can't live. Like, I can't survive. And so when it becomes like. Like your everyday need for food, like, like you have to do it. And so it's been a great journey because we both get a chance to talk to each other daily about what God is showing You. You know, what's fresh? How's the word going? And that's been a big part of our marriage as well, to process those types of talks. But. But being able to share our story and being able to walk with couples, being able to see couples, like, rip up the papers of divorce on these weekends or to just feel like they're closer than they were when they came in on Friday, I think it's just a testimony of the vision and the power of God in that, you know?

Speaker 1

And it's interesting because when we got the phone call to be part of the family life speaker team, we were sitting in our office where we meet with couples because we became, we like to say, like we've been healed. And so healed people can be healers. And so we've been able to walk with couples, see couples go from. From. From, you know, one place to the next, to see them thriving. And when we got that call, we turn around, and on our bookshelf is a small covenant where we signed it 2002. We can remember at the. I still do. And we thought, wow, God, look at this full circle moment. And then we had another moment when we got to the hotel when we were about to speak and share on. On the sexual intimacy talk during our training. And we just got to the bedside and we got on our knees and we said, God, you're redeeming the very area where the enemy almost destroyed us. And now we're going out to the ballroom to tell people that there's hope. And we just. We just stood at that bedside and we said, what a holy moment of seeing God redeem. And so we were able to go out there and share. And so many couples are impacted. It just the idea that you guys were there and you're here now that we're a picture. If God can do it for us, he can do it for them.

Speaker 4

Absolutely.

Speaker 1

And we can see how. How God is getting the full glory out of this. People can see what he has done. And so that's really what we are. We're. We're a. A display of his splendor, of his grace, of what he can do. When you just say, God, I need you, that's so good.

Speaker 2

Yeah. And, you know. You know, we say this at every weekend. Remember, that's God's dream for every marriage.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

From isolation to oneness. But that's not where it ends to impact. You know, God wants to do something in us, but then through us. Through us. And I mean, I think so often, you know, I'VE been a pastor for 40 some years. So often people, even at church, when you share your sins and struggles in front of them, they still think you're.

Speaker 4

Probably perfect because you're the pastor, whoever's on stage.

Speaker 2

And so they're almost afraid when they come to you to really say what the darkness is in their life that they're struggling with. I don't think that's true of you guys. When they hear your story, it opens the door for people to go, I can be honest with them because they've been in the dark and they are now living a different life. I won't, you know, so thank you. My goodness. And you guys, what a beautiful story.

Speaker 4

It's so evident of the enemy's pursuit of you and his destruction for your marriage. I don't think most of us are aware that there is an enemy and it's not your spouse. And he wants to kill, steal and destroy your marriage, your legacy, your children, your very life, your very life. And I look at you and think, no matter, no one, the battle was so fierce over your lives. Can you, like, do you see that? Like, how it was like the enemy is hounding you your entire lives. Couples that feel like, oh, man, we're in that right now. We're so in the middle of it and we don't know what to do. How do we break free from that?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I'll let you.

Speaker 3

I think of a word that we. The Marty shares this a lot, we talk about this with couples is let's start with a fresher rent. Because what happens is we start to take on things. I think we're gatherers by nature. I think we just gather all kinds of stuff, information, stuff we see, stuff we buy. We're just gatherers by nature. And I feel like there's a fresh surrender of acknowledging where you're at in your despair, acknowledging who God is and what he can do. Right. And then submitting unto God's plan and his power. Right. Because there's sometimes a place where for me, me still, it's like I can get into these stretches of my own strength.

Speaker 4

We all can.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And we all can do that. Right. It's so. And it's like repenting of that and saying, lord, I've been doing this on my own and I'm. You are king of kings. Right? I'm following your leading. Right. Holy Spirit, I need your power to help me live this out. Right. And so I think that's a great way to start with a fresh surrender, fresh dedication. Back to The Lord and letting him. What's the next step? Right? Because I think with couples that are right in it too, they're looking too far in both directions, and he's a lamp into your feet. And so it's. What's the next step today that I can. That I can do, that I can do, not my spouse can do, but that I can do to walk in obedience with you and to walk in the direction that's going to help our oneness versus keep pulling us in isolation because we can't control our spouse, right? We can't.

Speaker 4

We've all tried. It doesn't work.

Speaker 3

But it's really just, again, a fresh surrender for you and fresh surrender of your spouse and just doing what God tells you to do or has for you to do that day. Because it does take steps of obedience that you can see. You know, I just walked three miles, right? But, man, getting on that treadmill, I feel like. Like it's. I've been walking down here for hours, right? And I'm only getting like one mile. But it's like really the next step, next step of obedience to keep moving in that direction. That's helped me. And still to this day, where I'm looking at too many things, I'm like, what's my next step? What do I need to do today to help me?

Speaker 4

I do that every morning when I wake up. God, I resurrender today. Give me your eyes, your ears, your mouth, your tongue. And like, that has to become a habit or else we just live according to our own desires in our flesh. What would you say about that?

Speaker 1

That I think it's. It's true. I think the. The God of the universe, he's in control of all things, and he can do anything he wants, but he's a God of relationship. And so he walks us. He walks with us in the valley. He walks us through the valley. But he wants you to know him coming out of it. And so I feel like pain. And. And the trials that we have gone through has been God's invitation to know him more. And I think if you're in the middle of your pain, look up to God and say, God, I need you to take over. I can't do this alone, and I can't do it on my own strength. Sometimes he, you know, he watches us trying and striving and fighting, and then he's like, okay, just ask me. Just invite me in. Just tag team. Come on, tag me in. You know, and we're fighting him, and the minute we're like, okay, God, I can't do this anymore. I need you. He steps in and he does what we cannot do in human effort. And God can do so much through our surrender more than he can with our striving. And so what I've seen is surrender and trust the Lord. He's the God that can be trusted. And one thing we can say is that you're going to look back one day and you're going to see God's fingers, fingerprints all over your life. And it's usually he moves the best when our fingerprints are not in it.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 1

And. And I've just seen God do exceedingly more than we could expect from him. But he is a God that wants to be invited in to it and then don't do it alone. We need a community. We needed people who were in our corner fighting for. For us, who were praying for us. Friends that were telling me, limari, go back in the fight and keep on fighting for your marriage. He needed men that told him, you know, go back in there and love her and don't give up. You know, and so we need community. If you just think about who are the circle of people surrounding your marriage like a force field, right? Because they can surround you through prayer, through just examples. If you don't have that, get that. Because you need that.

Speaker 2

So, yeah, yeah, I always say you need the power of God. You need the people of God.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

You need both. I mean, in some ways, oh, I need the power of God. Yeah, that is true. But he's created us in such a way. You need a community.

Speaker 3

Absolutely.

Speaker 2

They need to be surrounded. And man, I just want to say this. If you've lost hope, he's the God of resurrection. He resurrected this marriage. He can resurrect yours. And I know you're thinking, if my husband would jester my wife, it's not about them. It's about you. And I would say, get their book ruined to renewal. It's on our website, familylifetoday.com in the show notes, click it there. Here's what I'd say. Get it for you, but get 10 more. Oh, yeah, because you know somebody that has lost hope. This book will help them find hope in Jesus.

Speaker 4

I've never done this before, but let's start this way. Toni, I want you to turn just to lamari and tell her what you love about her.

Speaker 1

You're trying to make us cry.

Speaker 3

There's so many things, though. There's so many things. I don't want to say it in the spiritual Answer Right. But the one thing that I could say I really love, respect and encouraged by is your fear of God, is how much of a relationship that you have with him that you're so obedient to what he, he has for you. On a daily basis, you say things to me out of just respect and love, but I know that you fear him more than anything, more than me, you know, and you don't fear me at all, but it's just the fact that you just have. Have that relationship component that I think is missing in a lot. But I love that about you. Can I say more things?

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I love how you do have an eye for beautiful things. I love your laugh. I love the fact that you change the room when you laugh. I love how intentional you are that when we are together, the parts that I miss, that you always get to point those out, not at me, but like, address those things when we're talking to somebody or just in the moment. I love how you still have a tag on the heart of our kids. And that when I'm not realizing what's going on, you're like, no, there's something else happening. And that I love the fact that our kids like you. Like they love you, like their kids love to talk to you. And I'm grateful that you've established our relationship with them as well. And I thank you that you are patient with me. You allow me to figure things out and fail at the same time. And I thank you for that. That I have a safe place to be myself, to be transparent with you, and to be encouraged by you. I love you.

Speaker 1

Okay. Lamari he just filled up my love tank.

Speaker 3

Oh, is that much?

Speaker 1

No, there's a lot. I love that you're 10. Surrender to the Lord, that you hear from him, that you pray with me, that you call me now and you pray in the morning, that you ask me, what is God showing you. I love that you're a wonderful, wonderful dad and that you're a great grandpa. And I just think about our babies, you know, our little, little ones running through the house and how that could have been destroyed. I love that you're a chain breaker, that you fought to chain, to break chains. I love that you're a builder. I love what you said before is that you were a destroyer, but now you're a builder, that you build legacy, that you build homes, that you build tables, that you build anything that you put your heart to. And I love that you're a hard worker. I love that you believe in me and that you're always telling me to chase my dreams, so. And I love that you serve us like Christ served the church and loved the church. And so I love you.

Speaker 4

I don't know the last time you as a listener have done that to your spouse, but it's a big deal because we take for granted sometimes one another, and we see the greatness and we don't always see say it. So just to see you guys do that and see where God's taken you from the very beginning of your story is miraculous. What a gift you've been to us.

Speaker 3

Thank you. Thank you, guys.

Speaker 1

Thank you, guys.

Speaker 3

Good pleasure.

Speaker 1

A lot of tears.

Speaker 4

I don't think I've cried so much in a long time.

Speaker 2

There were a lot of tears.

Speaker 1

It was so good.

Speaker 4

Hey, thanks for watching. And if you like this episode better like it, just hit that, like, button.

Speaker 2

And we'd like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don't think I can say this.

Speaker 4

Word like and subscribe.

Speaker 2

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.