FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

In Christ means we get the vertical blessings of being adopted, being sharing in the sonship of Jesus, calling God Father. We can't have that without also having the horizontal entailment of. Now we get one another, too.

Speaker 2

Welcome to Family Life Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Speaker 3

And I'm Dave Wilson. And you can find us at Family Life Today. This is Family Life Today.

Okay. My question today for my two scholars at the table, Ann Wilson and Sam Alberry, is did you ever, whether it's been recent or maybe growing up, feel like when you walked into a room with a lot of people, maybe strangers or a party type deal, that you sort of had to prove yourself?

Did you feel like there was something in you that wanted to make sure they were impressed by you?

Speaker 1

I'm shy, so I feel uneasy walking into a big room of strangers still. I've just got to psych myself up.

And I don't know if it's so much a need to kind of impress them as it is a fear that there's no way I can. So it's that kind of anxiety.

And where do you start? You know, all that kind of social anxiety and awkwardness—I had a lot of that as a younger man and still do from time to time.

Speaker 3

Do you?

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3

What about you, Ian?

Speaker 2

That's a good. I've never thought of that before. That's a good. You must be a radio host.

Speaker 3

Well, I'm trying to impress you right now, is what I'm trying to do.

Speaker 2

Well, before I was in Christ, I think I walked in with a sadness because I felt very different, which is kind of crazy. I wasn't a partier. My family, even though they weren't believers in Jesus, they were very moral. And so I felt very out of place because everybody was partying and I wasn't. That made me sad.

And then after I was in Christ, I came in like, I'm converting everybody. I want everybody to know because I thought, this is the problem. We're all trying to find ourselves in all these different ways. And I have the answer. And I really thought everyone would want to hear it. And I was very disappointed when they didn't really.

Okay, what about you?

Speaker 3

Well, I mean, we're talking yesterday we started a conversation with Sam about the subtitle of your book, the Life Changing Reality of Being in Christ.

And we got into identity, like, who am I? What do I believe about myself?

I thought for many years of my life that any situation I walked into, I was trying to impress whoever was there that I wanted to impress. Whether it's a room of athletes or musicians or just a party, I wouldn't admit it because I was so insecure. But there was part of me that wanted to impress.

Speaker 2

That's the part of you that I didn't like when we first met.

Speaker 3

Yeah, definitely. Because I didn't know who I was and I thought I was what people thought.

Speaker 1

I.

Speaker 3

So if I could impress them and they say, hey, Dave Wilson's pretty amazing, then I'm important.

And what we, you know, the discussion we had yesterday was, you know, what we believe about ourselves. If we understand what it means to be in Christ, that changes everything. You end up walking into a room and you don't have to impress. You're secure.

I mean, Sam, you articulated that so well yesterday. It's like, I know who I am. It's not based on what you think of me or whether it's high or low. It doesn't matter. Again, not that I don't care, but I don't care because I sort of know who I am.

And so I thought that dominates most people's everyday experiences. I'm trying to prove to people, I'm trying to show to people. Even in our marriages we do that with our spouse and our kids. But I think it's a reality for most people.

Speaker 1

It makes it harder for us to serve people because the key is being self-forgetting, and it's a form of being self-absorbed. When we're going in with that mentality of, "What are they thinking of me? Am I making it with them? Am I doing well? Am I winning them over? Am I impressing them?" the more that is the dominant running commentary, the less we are actually thinking of them; we are thinking of ourselves. We see them either as a threat to be neutralized or as an asset to be gained.

My friend Ray Orland's dad used to say there are two ways to walk into a room. You can walk into a room with the mentality of, "Here I am. Am I going to be noticed? Are people going to approach me? Are they going to meet my needs? Is anyone going to come over to me? Are people going to be there for me?"

Or, you can walk into a room with the mentality of, "There you are. How can I serve you? Who are you? How can I find out who you are?" This is the essence of being self-forgetting. The gospel takes a long time to help nudge us towards this mindset because we become more interested in other people than we are insecure about ourselves.

Speaker 3

I mean, you tell me if this is true, if you understand what we talked about yesterday. I'm in Christ, I'm secure in Christ. One of the implications, isn't it? I become other centered.

It's no longer about me. I'm good, I understand who I am, I understand my position. So therefore it's no longer I have to, it's now.

There you are. What a great phrase. There you are.

Speaker 2

There you are. I'm going to remember that. There you are.

Speaker 1

It takes time for the shift to happen because it takes time to recode our hearts and all of that kind of stuff. But it is over the long term trajectory of our lives. That is, I hope, the path we find ourselves on.

Speaker 2

Yeah, walk us through your journey.

Speaker 1

I still occasionally will walk into a, you know, the time after the end of the church service where people are milling around. I love that time. And I also find it difficult depending on how I'm doing that day. There are days that I'm like, oh, I don't know who to speak to. Does anyone really want to speak to me? Anyway, what have I got to offer them?

And again, me, me, me, me, me. I'm assuming things about myself that actually are not necessarily true rather than thinking, here's a buffet of interesting people the Lord has put me into family with and I get to hang out with them and find out more about them.

But the question is, am I taking an interest in them or am I thinking about myself? And so I have to, sometimes I have to look at myself and come on, Sam, here's what you need to think as you walk into that room.

Speaker 2

I'm thinking of teenagers. You know, think about when you walk in a room. It's all about. You feel awkward, you don't know what to do with yourself. But if you have your eyes on someone else, there you are. Then it totally changes the whole scope.

Speaker 3

I mean, can you do that as a teenager? I mean, I'm not saying you can't, but I mean the typical teenager, your body's changing everybody.

I mean, it's just such a middle school, high school. And I'm thinking, even as parents listening, how do we help our teenagers at that age?

Speaker 1

It's a uniquely self conscious time of life because of those reasons. Which is why we want to give up our teenagers some slack on this. And yet whilst also expecting the spirit to bear his fruit in their lives.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I'm thinking it was Ray Ortland's father who said that to Ray. Look at him now. I mean, he lives that out everywhere he goes.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And I'm also thinking as a parent of a teenager, how do I help my teen understand in Christ?

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's a good question.

Speaker 3

What would you say?

Speaker 1

Well, Mr.

Speaker 3

Expert over there.

Speaker 1

No, it's really helping one another see what the Bible says about us. Because again, we have a way of seeing ourselves that doesn't line up with scripture—either a haughty way or a despairing way, whatever it might be. Sometimes both.

So to think, okay, you are this in Christ now. I love saying to people, Jesus being the creator means Jesus came up with the idea of you. He thought you up, and he was having a good day when he did.

And the you he thought up that tickled him when he thought you up is the you he is making you to be, now by his spirit.

Speaker 2

What do you mean by he's making you to be?

Speaker 1

Because in our fallenness, we don't do a very good job of being who we are. We're not very good at being people.

Which is why we get this paradoxical logic in the Gospel of you've got to deny self to be yourself. Because the self we're denying is the warped us.

And as we deny self, take up our cross and follow Jesus and press into him, we become our real selves.

Speaker 2

That's good.

Speaker 1

The person we were always meant to be, the person that Jesus came up with the idea of, we get there in him.

And again, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; in scripture, that's not based on daily performance.

That's a reality that is as sure as Jesus' grave is empty. Because the new life he enjoys now, he has given to us in him.

Speaker 2

This happens every time I'm with you. You're crying, Sam. It happens when I'm with Dane Ortland. It's the beauty of the gospel. It's the hope of the gospel. It's incredible.

Yeah. So I just sit here and cry while Sam talks. And he awkwardly has to look at me as tears stream down my face.

But isn't it crazy that he does that for us?

Speaker 1

It is. He's so gracious.

Speaker 2

So gracious.

Speaker 1

Jesus is always better than we think he is. We will never have a thought of Jesus that is completely worthy of him. Even our highest thoughts of him don't get there. He's always better than we think he is.

Speaker 3

How do you help a person? And again, I'm thinking even in marriages or parents trying to do this with their kids. Maybe even with your spouse, but also with your kids who hears what you're saying and isn't tearing up because they're stuck in shame or they're stuck in.

I hear it. I've read the Bible. I've heard preachers like Sam say it. I don't know if I believe it for myself. How do you help get from old to new? I'm new in Christ, but I don't really. And again, Paul writes about that.

I don't always feel that way. I don't always live that way, but it's the truth. But it has hit my soul enough that I'm actually emotional about it because I'm not sure if I actually believe it in my heart of hearts. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1

Totally. Totally. We need to believe things about Jesus to be able to believe things about ourselves. So if I'm looking at myself and going, do I believe that I'm a new creation in Christ? Do I believe I have the spirit in me bearing fruit? No. The more I look at myself, the less I believe that.

When I look at Jesus, do I believe he is who he says he is? Do I believe he's reigning on high? Do I believe he's got power over evil and sickness and death and shame and guilt and all of those things? Yes. Do I believe he can save me when I look at Him? Yes. I forget who it was who said, for every one look at yourself, take 10 looks at Christ. I think that's been attributed to various people over the years, but it's such a healthy statement.

I was this morning thinking of a dear friend of mine who has a very, very tender conscience and he thinks he's the lousiest Christian on the planet because all he sees is his own failure. Yeah, he's not sure he actually has a heart for Jesus. I know the guy. I know him. I know him super well. I know his heart. He's a Christian. He's a wonderful Christian. But I think it's because he's looking at himself too much.

There’s a place for self-examination, but it has to be done in the context of fixing our eyes on Jesus. It’s as we fix our eyes on him that we will find ourselves moving toward him in our character, our heart, and all the rest of it.

Speaker 2

I remember my friend and I were walking, and we were talking about how women can become easily obsessed with our outer person, our physical appearance. She was saying, Michelle was saying, it's almost as if what we end up doing is gazing at ourselves in the mirror. But then we glance at God, and we need to switch that up. We should gaze at the Father and then just glance at ourselves in the mirror. And that's not easy to do.

What I was thinking is that the thing that has made my heart so much softer over the years is because I'm reading the Bible through every single year. There's something about being in the Word that reminds you over and over again who God is, how much He loves us, and who we are in Him. As we were talking about that, I realized that I can so easily drift away if I'm not in the Word or if I'm not in fellowship. What I put into my heart, my mind, my eyes, and my ears makes a difference in the tenderness of my heart.

When I listen to worship, I feel so desperate; I need to be in the Word. I need to be listening to worship music because it points my heart, my mind, and everything back to Christ. Instead, I find myself getting sucked into the world. We all do, if we aren't intentional about our focus.

Speaker 1

A few years ago, I was jet skiing. Oh, and you know, I'd done it once 20 years earlier or something, so I was very unfamiliar with it. I think it was when I was jet skiing that they said you've got to look at where you want to go rather than looking at where you are.

Oh, and it's the same as riding a bike, isn't it? If you're looking down, you'll be wobbling around and falling off. If you're looking at where you're going, you'll be pedaling towards it.

Speaker 3

The first thing they teach you in motorcycle riding, training. It's the first thing they teach you.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

If you look this way, your bike goes that way. You think, oh no, it doesn't.

Speaker 1

It does.

Speaker 3

If you turn away, your bike's gonna lean whatever way you look. So where you look.

Speaker 1

Yeah, yeah, it's the same.

So the more we look at ourselves and where we are, we'll be wobbling and thinking when we won't, you know. But we've got to keep looking at Jesus, with appropriate place for self-examination in the light of Him.

But our eyes are on Him. Up, looking up.

Speaker 2

I like that.

Speaker 1

Not looking down, occasionally glancing down just to check, check the readings. Our focus is up, not down.

Speaker 3

Well, you both mentioned in what you're talking about walking with Jesus and looking at Jesus, other people, people beside you, you have a whole chapter together in Christ. So what does that mean? How important is that?

Speaker 1

Vitally important for two reasons. One is we don't see ourselves realistically, you know, physically. God has designed us that we can't see the whole of our bodies anyway. So there's a whole side of us. We need someone else to tell us if we got, you know, if you got a kick me sign on your back, someone else has to tell you that you're not going to know that yourself.

So just our very physiology tells us we need other pairs of eyes for us to see our whole self. The same is true spiritually. That friend I mentioned earlier, those of us who know him well, we see the presence of Jesus in his life so clearly.

And sometimes we need to have the eyes of other people on us to help us see in ourselves the things that we don't see by ourselves. We can't be ourselves by ourselves.

Speaker 2

Oh, that's good.

Speaker 1

Because who we are in Christ is who we are in Christ together. And if I'm now finding myself united to Jesus, pulled all the way into his heart by his grace, and I meet you two, and you're both also in Christ, that means we now have a thing going, whether we chose it or not. We now have a connection point, an obligation to one another. We're bound to each other by being united to Jesus.

And so the more I'm aware of my union with him, the more I see the significance of my unity with other people who are in him as well. First and foremost, obviously our own church families, but any Christian we run across, we now feel a sense of bound up with-ness because of our shared union with Jesus.

I don't get to grab Jesus and then run off with him on my own. I have Jesus together with the rest of the saints.

Speaker 2

What about the people? I'm just thinking, since COVID so many people have not returned to the church, it really is a thing. What would you say to them besides what you've already shared? Which is super helpful.

Speaker 1

Yeah. It would be harder for you to grow in Christ on your own because we're not designed to. We are designed to need.

You know, Hebrews 10:25 says, don't give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another daily.

So the opposite of not meeting together isn't meeting together. The opposite of not meeting together is encouraging one another.

Speaker 2

That's interesting, isn't it?

Speaker 1

He's assuming that the overall net effect of our gathering is mutual encouragement, which means God has designed your Christian life to need the encouragement of other brothers and sisters. So you're not getting nourished if you take yourself out of that.

But more than that, God has designed your Christian life to be an encouragement to other people because it's one another. Other people are missing out because they don't get to hang out with you. And again, that's another thing that helps us walk into that crowded room: to think, I need to believe God is giving me a way of being an encouragement to other brothers and sisters, because that's what the Bible says. None of us is useless at church.

I look around on a Sunday morning and might see an older saint who I know is suffering physically. I think of a guy I knew at my previous church who had just a sort of the most severe, never-ending headache, just like a constant, very painful migraine. It didn't stop him from coming to church.

Now, he probably felt like he wasn't contributing much because he was hardly the bounciest person in the room and all the rest of it. But I would see him, and just the fact he had showed up encouraged me because I'm like, wow, we matter enough to him that he's come even though he's in pain. I used to say he has a spiritual gift of showing up.

Speaker 2

That's a big deal.

Speaker 1

Sometimes you don't even need to be doing anything to be encouraging other people. Just our physical presence can be a blessing to other people.

Speaker 2

Almost every year when Dave was the chaplain for the Detroit Lions and I was leading a Bible study with their wives, they would come into Detroit. A lot of these women, most of whom were in their 20s, with a few in their 30s, often expressed feelings of depression about living in Detroit. Of all the places in the country, Detroit is not necessarily at the top of the list.

I remember saying to them, almost every year, "I wonder what God has in store for you this year." I would encourage them to look around and recognize that there are women in this room who, if they allow it, will impact them. I would remind them that they may not believe it right now, but their lives are going to encourage all of us. We need them there because they have something that God has put in them, and I can't wait to see what it is.

I think that this sentiment is true for all of us going to church. We need each other there. As you said, he has the gift of showing up, and he did just that.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 2

That's a good reminder.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And Ann won't say this, but the last Bible study of the season with those wives, I wasn't there, but she would tell me otherwise, would tell me they were all bawling.

They're crying their eyes out because they became a community and they fell in love with one another and they found encouragement and support.

And now the season's ending because we're not going to the playoffs and we're done.

Speaker 2

Back then we weren't.

Speaker 3

Yeah, now they are. But, you know, it was just God did what you said. He made them together and they became a church. They became a body of Christ in Christ, rubbing off on one another.

And by the way, you know, we're a marriage and family show. That's what family does.

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1

You know, I don't get to be my parents' child without being my sibling's brother, but that's a package deal. When I showed up, these strange people are my mom and dad, apparently. And this goofy guy hanging around is apparently my older brother. But I didn't get them without getting him.

And we don't get to be in Christ means we get the vertical blessings of being adopted, sharing in the sonship of Jesus, calling God Father. We can't have that without also having the horizontal entailment of now we get one another too. If we think we can somehow just take Jesus off by ourselves, we've not understood him. He's gathering a people to himself now.

There are some complicated reasons for some people why fellowshipping is difficult. I know that people who've suffered spiritual abuse and the like, it's going to take, you know, their route back into fellowship may be a longer one, but it needs to be an aspiration for all of us that we are finding some way of embodying our togetherness in Jesus.

Speaker 3

How does "in Christ" impact that person?

And it could be a family member too, because it could be a broken relationship with your mom or dad or brother, and you don't even want to be part of your family or a church member, whatever.

How does my understanding of "in Christ" help me?

Speaker 1

I hope it will give us a sense that I do need to have again. I think of a very precious church member from a church I used to be at who had suffered unimaginable abuse in her past. For her, it started with having two friends she could trust at church. She would meet and pray with them.

Eventually, she did come back on Sundays, but it took a long time. It all began with those two people. She needed some physical way of reminding herself that she wasn't on her own in this world. We're not on our own in Jesus. The Lord sometimes puts us only in families, and that might be a family of a couple of close Christian friends. That's a great starting point.

Then she joined a small group that those two women were in and began to learn to trust a small group, letting them in on part of her journey. For a season, she would come to church, and we arranged it so that she could slip in after the service began. There would be a seat at the back where she didn't have to interact if she didn't want to, and she could leave just before the end. That was many months. Eventually, she started to come and sit with a friend.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 1

And, you know, it's incremental.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

We change slowly. That's okay. Jesus. Jesus isn't looking at his watch.

Speaker 2

What a good reminder that it doesn't have to be overnight.

Speaker 1

No. As we often say at our church in Nashville, we need the gospel plus safety, plus time. Yeah.

Speaker 2

You know what? I'm going to take away many things. One, I like that idea of the fellowship, the importance of that.

And it doesn't have to be overnight. It can take time because we've all been through some things.

But I also like the idea of walking into any room and saying, there you are.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

For some of you, and maybe many of you, family life today is your community. It's like somebody you meet with every day.

We've heard people. We spoke this weekend in New York in a marriage conference. They're like, yeah, I sit with you every day. We're like, that's weird. What do you mean?

Speaker 2

You're discipling us?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And they're like, you're discipling me in my Christian walk into my marriage. Because I listen to family life daily. It was really a beautiful conversation. I know for some people, that's their together. Not that there aren't others, but it's, you know, we end up being an important part of their life.

So I was just going to say, if we're part of that community, we'd love you to be a part of our community by jumping in financially. We can't do this without your financial gifts.

So if you want to give a gift to family life today, we will send you Sam's book, "One with My Lord." For any amount of donation, just go to familylifetoday.com, or you can give us a call at 1-800-358-63. That's 800-F as in family, L as in life, and then the word today.

Speaker 2

And I'm going to add to we touched on some pretty heavy things today. I feel like they really were personal and maybe you've experienced some pain or difficulty even in being in a church setting again.

And if you are having anything going on in your life, we want to pray for you. Dave and I will pray for you. We have a team that will pray for you.

And you can go to familylife.com/prayforme.

Speaker 3

Family life today is a donor supported production of Family Life, a crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.