FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

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Speaker 2

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Speaker 1

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Speaker 1

That's 1-800-F as in family. L as in life and the word today.

Speaker 3

You do not have to repeat the mistakes of your parents. You are free to not be like them at all. That's one redemptive thing in your life is like, you don't have to be like your mom. You don't have to be like your dad.

Speaker 1

Welcome to family Life today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Dave Wilson.

Speaker 2

And I'm Ann Wilson. And you can find us at Family Life today. This is Family Life Today.

Speaker 1

Okay. So often when I talk to men, just men, and I want to talk about being a dad, I will ask the guys. And so I'm going to ask you two. We got Ann and we got Bran Hansen back with us.

I want to ask you this question I asked these guys, and it's really interesting in a room of four or five hundred men. I'll actually ask them to yell out what comes to their mind.

So I say, when you think of your dad, what's the first word that comes to your mind? Do you have a word that comes to you?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I'm going to start positive. How's that? Integrity. And then the second word would be absent. We, even as us as parents, I'm sure our kids have a positive word. And we all have not so positive word as well.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

If we're honest, our kids have told.

Speaker 2

Us the negative words.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So it's a tough thing for me because my dad has allowed me. He's given me the green light, I should say, from his perspective, to let me talk about things, but he's alive, and I still honor him, and so I keep it pretty generic when I talk about it.

He was a pastor, and it was a very traumatic household. My brother and I were terrified. We grew up terrified because of violence and what we were afraid would happen to us or our mom. Our folks got divorced eventually. I wrote about this, so it's out there, and he's okay with it, but there was infidelity in addition to just the kind of terror.

They eventually remarried each other, and then I was the ring bearer in their second wedding, which I didn't want to happen.

Speaker 2

You didn't want them to remarry?

Speaker 3

No, no, no, no. I wanted peace.

Speaker 1

How old were you then?

Speaker 3

12, 13.

Speaker 2

Oh, so not that old. Were you afraid for your mom?

Speaker 3

Yeah. And she was just doing the best she could. I want to make sure I say that she was. She wanted the family to work desperately. And she's a preacher's wife, you know, she wanted it to be real.

And so, but they got divorced again, I think a year after that. And so being a pastor, we had to watch him give sermons three times a week. It was Wednesday night, Sunday morning, Sunday night.

And from everybody else's perspective, he's a talented, wonderful man of God. And then from ours, it's like, I don't. We don't even want to go home.

Speaker 2

Ah.

Speaker 3

It made me. It made us nervous. So I want to continue to honor him at the same time, tell the truth. That is our story. But not getting too granular about it. And he's very sorry. And so we love him. My brother and I, we're rooting for him. But, yeah, that's a big deal.

And I used to. Honestly, I talked to a counselor about it fairly recently. I was like, why should this be such a big deal? Because your childhood is a relatively short time, a relatively long time ago, at least in my case.

Speaker 2

Isn't that crazy? And yet.

Speaker 3

Yet, right. So even middle age, where I am, like, it's still a thing. Why? And he's like, "Brant, don't be so simplistic. Like, that's formative."

And so I want to dismiss it, because it's like, come on, let's get over that. Let's not do this. Like, if it's going to be a Freudian thing, it's all about your childhood. It all comes back.

But there is validity to that. And that actually helped me to hear that. Like that. No, that's a legit thing. You can try to just brush it off. But it is formative.

It's not, fortunately for somebody who's a believer, the rest of your life is also formative. But it mattered. And it matters.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So it's really tough for me to. In one word, it hurts. I guess I have to use that word. Yeah. I don't know what to say. What do they say when you're talking to a bunch of guys and you ask that question?

Speaker 1

Well, it's interesting. Most of the time it goes this way. It first starts positive because I think usually it's a Christian setting. And I think they want to honor their daily. They want to honor.

Speaker 2

We all do.

Speaker 1

And they are positive things they're saying that are real. And then there'll be one guy that'll say something that. Like, that I was hurtful or absent or abusive or demeaning. And then you can just feel the rooms like, oh, we're allowed to be honest.

Speaker 3

Yeah. Now, here we go.

Speaker 1

There's a little both. You know, usually when I do it, I'm saying, you know, that word that you're thinking of is important, but there's another word that's more important. What have our sons or daughters gonna say about us? And so we have a chance to, you know, shape that word. That's sort of where the direction I'm going.

But what you just said is so key is like, it is formative. It does stay with you. I'm in my 60s and it's still with me. And my dad's been gone 20 years.

Speaker 2

What would your word be?

Speaker 1

It was mostly absent, but our listeners have heard us say this: just a couple of years ago, we called my sister on a random call. Ann, like, because she loves to dive into anything that’s intimate. You know, like, let’s get real. Our family never talked. Dad left when I was 7, and he left with his girlfriends. It was a broken home in the 60s, but we never talked about it. Never.

The first time my dad came to visit Ann and me as a married couple, I mean, we had just been married for a month. Ann, after dinner, looks across the family room and says, “Hey, Dave,” that’s his name, same as mine. “Hey, Dave, we’ve never heard your side of the divorce. Tell us your side.” I kicked her under the couch like, “No, you can’t ask that! We never talk about this. This is not allowed.” I thought he was going to be so angry that he wouldn’t respond. But he looked at her and said, “Nobody’s ever asked.” He wanted to talk about it. So we heard that other side.

But we talked to my sister just last year, and Ian said to her, “Hey, Pam, Dave doesn’t remember a lot. He was a little boy when the divorce happened. You were a teenage girl. Talk about those days. Would you like to talk about that again?” I was thinking she wouldn’t want to talk about it, but she said, “I’d love to talk about it.” All I know is I didn’t know half the story. There was abuse. I was beaten. My brother was beaten. There were things I probably blocked out. My older brother pulled my dad off me a lot, mostly when he was drunk, because he wasn’t a happy drunk. He was a mean drunk.

So all that to say, that’s with you in some ways your whole life.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And so that sounds like, where's the redemptive arc here, guys? We have to package this in a better way. Like, figure it out. There is redemptive stuff to it, but it is there. I mean, it is there. And it does shape you.

I think the redemptive thing, and I love telling especially it's women, too. It's guys. And women, like, you do not have to repeat the mistakes of your parents. You are free to not be like them at all. Because I think it haunts you a little bit.

Like, well, let's see. I'm a Christian guy. I'm on stage a lot. And my brother, too. My brother's a pastor and he's an older brother who has reminded me of things that have happened. I was like, I don't remember that.

Speaker 1

Really?

Speaker 3

Yeah. Very similar to you.

Speaker 2

So you guys are both serving Jesus.

Speaker 3

Yeah, Professionally, right. So here I am, a Christian radio person or author, whatever. So you're like, will I be like him? And the answer is in. Because our kids are out of the house now. The answer was, no, I am not. I was not when my kids came in.

I mean, I remember this coming home from school, walking home. The little towns that we were in. We moved about every nine months or year because we were trying to find another church where there was true appreciation, you know, where everybody. You like. You like adulation. Sometimes that's a thing, right?

Speaker 1

Hell, yeah.

Speaker 3

But I remember coming home and being like, I kind of hope that car is not out in front of the house so that we have peace in the house. And then when I saw it, it felt like a kick to the stomach. I go, no.

But when I came home, the kids would go to the door. "Dad, like, hooray, Dad's home." So, you know, they didn't do that when they were teenagers; they were over that.

But I tell you what they still had was a sense of peace because I was there.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

They still felt. And I was like, so that's one redemptive thing in your life is like, you don't have to be like your mom. You don't have to be like your dad. You can be similar in some ways. It's tough not to because you look.

Speaker 1

And sound and how did you break that cycle?

Speaker 3

You know, I guess I just thank God for it. I was just so determined. Like, I remember a crystalline moment when we were terrorized. And I don't want to get too in depth, but my brother and I were screaming to get out of the house. It was a parsonage, and we needed to get out. We thought, or else we're in big trouble.

And I remember reaching for the doorknob, but we were. I was screaming and crying. I think I was 11 or so. And I had this moment, like, wait, when I'm a dad, this is not going to happen. I remember actually thinking that I could see my hand, like, reaching for the doorknob of the living room. Like, to leave, to go outside and just like, this is gonna end.

Speaker 2

With you. Like, this will not carry on in the next generation.

Speaker 3

I'll tell you what my kids are not gonna do is run screaming for the door. And to be sure.

So they're out of the house now; we're grandparents, which is wonderful. But it's like, that is different.

So also, the disconnect between the Christian stage stuff and what's actually reality.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Did that affect.

Speaker 3

Yes.

Speaker 2

Your walk with God or your view of God?

Speaker 3

Yes. Okay. So one thing. It's done. I'm extremely skeptical of human nature, which has actually chased me back around to Christianity.

Speaker 2

Wow.

Speaker 3

Because Jesus is the only one who makes any sense, honestly. Like, how do you deny human brokenness? Like, I've lived it. I know there are hypocrites in the world because Jesus confronted them all. Nothing Jesus says is like. Doesn't ring with reality with me.

Like, none of you are good. And he doesn't. He didn't allow the play acting. So when people are like, even with me, if they're like, oh, you're such a great man of God because they hear me on their air or something, or they read the book and like, that's wonderful, and I appreciate that.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

But you don't know, right? We don't know. So that's why we're not supposed to put people on pedestals. It's not good for them. It's easy to be charming on stage and super Christian or impressive, but those are stage skills.

Speaker 2

What was your faith like as a boy when you were under the roof with your dad? Like, did you believe in God? What were your thoughts about him?

Speaker 3

I was terrified by Jesus coming back, and I would go to hell if I didn't become a Christian. They showed us those movies that freak everybody out. I don't know if you remember.

Speaker 2

That would be nice. Oh, yeah. What was that one called?

Speaker 3

Thief in the Night.

Speaker 2

Thief in the Night, Yes.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I mean, it's. That's another formative thing, sticks into your head.

Speaker 2

Our kids say the same thing. It was terrorizing.

Speaker 3

That. Yeah, terrorizing. So that was a thing.

And what had to happen, though, later on was for me to reset. Like, what do I actually believe?

And then finding the alternatives to Jesus don't work, and I don't believe they work. Nobody else acknowledges sin and actually does something about it.

Again, he's the only one that makes any sense when he talks about human nature, the biblical idea about human nature that jives with me.

Yeah, that seems about right.

Speaker 2

You've seen it. You've experienced it.

Speaker 3

What's the alternative here? What's better than him? He's so appealing, and he calls out all that hypocrisy.

The other redemptive thing about this is when I do talk on the air about Jesus, and I do a lot, it creeps me out if I ever say something that I don't actually think.

Speaker 2

You can't fake it yourself.

Speaker 3

I don't want to fake it. And I think if my wife was listening, I would hate for her to go, yeah, that's. That's.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Yeah. But the real Brandt would never say, like, I don't want that disconnect. And so it was very gratifying to me as the kids were growing up.

And even now, that, say, my daughter, some will listen to my podcast and then tell me the next day, oh, that was so funny when you said that one thing.

There's no, like, oh, yeah, there's spotlight, dad. It's like, it's still. It should be the same guy. Right?

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So that's another redemptive thing. And the upshot of that has been I think people can tell that totally.

So when I'm talking on the air, and I'm not like, I haven't got this all figured out, but I'm talking about Jesus. Like, I think they can tell. Oh, my gosh. This guy's not just jabbering. That has actually helped our radio thing.

So we're on a couple hundred stations, but I think the show sounds very different because you can tell. Oh, my gosh, this guy actually, this is real. Yeah. And he's intense about it. He believes what he's saying. I think that cuts through.

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I'm sure you're familiar with Exodus 20:10 commandments, the sins of the Father.

We'll visit down the third and fourth generation. How did that work out in your own life?

Did you sense that as you were growing up? Like, man, my dad's sins are in me and if I don't do something, I'm going to become like him?

Speaker 3

I think so. I think you become aware of that. It's interesting, though. I didn't know till late in life what his dad was like.

Speaker 2

That's what I was going to ask. Where did this come from for him?

Speaker 3

Yeah, there's. You can. You can see where dysfunction would be in him. And maybe it's. Maybe I'm the fourth. I don't even. You are aware of it. But I don't think that scripture means that we are doomed to be like them.

Speaker 2

No.

Speaker 3

That's the wonderful thing. I love telling guys that your whole life script with your wife and your kids can be the opposite. Where you didn't learn good lessons, you learned bad ones. But you did learn. You did learn, and you can do that.

And what a wonderful opportunity that is because, like. Yeah. So that was a living nightmare. That first go round first, but now this one actually goes on longer.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 3

This nuclear family that you're. Now you get to set the tone for it.

Speaker 2

I mean, as a preacher, Dave has always said, your trials can make you bitter or better. And we really have seen that over the years. And Dave, you did see a part of your dad in you.

Speaker 1

What part?

Speaker 2

Like when you were in college, you had that realization, I am becoming my dad.

Speaker 1

Yeah. I mean, it was like maybe you had the same thing. Brian, I grew up even as a middle school kid, like, I'll never. I'll never be like that man. You know, I despised it. It was like I saw him with women. I saw him couldn't handle his alcohol. It was like, I'm not gonna become that guy.

And so I went through high school and then now college. Like, I'm on a mission to be a different man. And I didn't. I couldn't see it. I was becoming that guy. I mean, I was drinking, I was womanizing. I was the big man on campus.

Speaker 2

You weren't angry and you were. If anything, you were more of a people pleaser, but you're vice versa.

Speaker 1

Yeah, but I was following the sin pattern and would have told you, never is going to happen until I looked in the mirror one day. I'm like. And you know somebody, one of my teammates is like, dude, you're like, you're a little out of control. You know, I'm like, no, I'm not. And I was like.

And I didn't know Brad. I didn't go to church. My mom took me as a single mom. But once I got to college, I'm like, I'm never going to church again. It's not true. It's not a bunch of fake people. I didn't even know the Bible said the sins of your father. So I had no idea that God had said, if you don't stop this, it will. It's natural. You'll copy it.

And, man, when I saw the Bible said that, I was like, okay, sort of what you said is, here's a book that describes the reality of the world and my own personal experience. And not just mine, everybody I see in a way that no other religion explains. So I sort of went on this journey.

But anyway, I knew after I came to follow Christ that I had a choice to make.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And it was like, visceral. Like, when we got married, it was like, I'm going to change the legacy. If I can do this, I'm going to do it.

Speaker 3

It is.

Speaker 1

You had the same thing.

Speaker 3

It's very similar. It's this determination.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

What a great story. I mean, your story is not over, but you can already say, we raised these kids.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

And that was not what my dad did.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 3

You can say that.

Speaker 1

Right?

Speaker 3

What's wild about that is sometimes people think, well, you need to honor your parents. You need to be like them. That's what honoring me like. No, no. Sometimes dishonoring them would be you being like them.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

In an honor culture, typical traditional culture, honoring is different than just saying, whatever they do, I'll do it too.

It's like you can bring dishonor upon your family name or honor to your family. You can redeem it. You can bring honor to it, but you can honor your parents by being a totally different person than what they may have demonstrated.

Speaker 2

What does your dad think of you? And Your brother now, he says he's proud of us. Yeah.

Speaker 3

And so, yeah, we're rooting for him. You know, everybody's got their continuing struggles. A big part of this though, and this is a big discussion is I think, forgiving that parent for real.

Speaker 2

We'll have to talk about that too.

Speaker 3

Yeah. We have forgiven him. We could talk about that process. And the other thing I think that a lot of people need to do and I'm not. Again, I'm not a counselor, but just having hard won lessons is grieving.

Speaker 2

Because it's like grieving what you didn't have.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that's kind of it. And you don't want to especially guys, we're like, you don't want to feel sorry for yourself. I'm not going to go, oh, boo hoo. I didn't get. But that is sad.

Speaker 1

It's sad how that, what'd that look like for you? How'd you grieve it?

Speaker 3

I think my wife's helped me with that over time. A lot of talking about it and understanding, like. Cause you look at other people's dads or situations, families from the outside. I literally watched the Brady Bunch when I was a kid for that reason.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Like, look at that.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

I mean, it's just total goofball stuff. But you're eight years old.

Speaker 2

Even the Huxtables. Remember that.

Speaker 1

Absolutely.

Speaker 3

You would.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2

Like, what a great dad.

Speaker 3

Yes. Yeah. Just like, can I be adopted by you, Mr. Cosby? That's how you felt back in the 80s.

But grieving that to go, okay, so that didn't happen. And then here's the life that I have and here's how we're gonna be different.

I think that's important too, so that you're not constantly living with that grinding grief or resentment.

Speaker 2

I just talked to a young woman who said those very same things. She's a mom now. She has three little kids and she has become a believer. She has seen some healthy Bible living, Bible believing families.

She said, "I have been so angry that I didn't get that. I'm so sad that I will never have that. My mom may never be what I had hoped or even apologize for what we didn't have."

I said that very same thing. Is that something that you're going to have to lament? Like, I am so sorry. It's like having a funeral for the childhood you didn't get.

Speaker 3

Right. Especially if you're still hoping.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

Like this person is going to be somebody that they have Proven over and over and over. They're not going to be that.

Speaker 2

And now she's a grandma or he's a grandfather and they still. You're hoping that they could live up to this dream or expectation, which isn't always good. And they don't. So you're still disappointed.

Speaker 3

Yeah. And that's a bad way to live. And so I think that's coming to terms with reality. That takes grieving sometimes instead of being in denial.

Part of that, though, for a lot of guys in particular, for me as a man, is actually voicing that it's tough because again, you want to just kind of skip over all that.

But I appreciate my wife's willingness over the years to help me. Everybody's got stuff.

Speaker 2

Everybody.

Speaker 3

Everybody does. And so it's not like, again, oh, boo hoo me, we can talk about her stuff. We talk about everybody else's stuff.

Speaker 1

Let's talk about everybody else's stuff.

Speaker 3

It's a lot easier.

Speaker 2

How do you even do that? Like, I'm thinking of wives or husbands whose spouse won't go there and talk about it. But you can see the fallout. Like, oh, they've never dealt with it and it's seeping in areas and destroying the person you love.

Speaker 3

That would be a great question for my wife to field. But I do think, like, we're so isolated in general in this culture.

But like, if you do have any kind of faith community at all, people you can talk to. Yeah, counselors, good biblical counselors, obviously, huge help.

But other people, including what I hope is somebody listening to this program. And what you hope too is like, they're like, oh, I'm hearing people talk about this.

Speaker 2

Yes.

Speaker 3

So this is not that strange. I probably do need to process some of this stuff. I probably do need to grieve. I probably do need to forgive. I probably do need to stop trying to control people who aren't gonna be what they've never been. I mean, unless God intervenes in his way with them. Like, I can't do that.

So you hope that just by talking about this stuff it creates a space, especially for men, to be able to talk about it. But anybody.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I know that everybody. You've already said it. Has stuff.

Yeah, everybody. Even our kids. And they had perfect parents. Who's better than us?

But all three of our sons have sat with counselors. And I guarantee a large part of that conversation was about, at least about me.

Speaker 2

Oh, me too.

Speaker 1

I mean, both of us. But you know, we tried to do it so much better than our parents did.

We did everything we could, and we made mistakes. We hurt them, and they're carrying stuff, and that's normal.

But you've got to talk and process through.

Speaker 3

Yeah, I just ask God for mercy on that stuff. Yeah. Like, we didn't do everything perfectly, but it was a lot better than it was the first go round. I mean, it was. There was a lot of laughter.

Speaker 1

They don't even know how.

Speaker 3

There's a lot of peace. Yeah, they have. They have articulated that.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Like, our daughter, very sweet, a very intelligent woman, but she's like, I don't even. I can't even relate.

Speaker 2

Isn't that a sweet compliment?

Speaker 3

Thank you. Yes, that's a great compliment. Like, thanks for saying. And she, of course she could have a list of, well, you know, I wish she wouldn't have done, but.

Speaker 1

But the sins of the father stopped.

Speaker 3

It stopped.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

Like, that was a peaceful, laugh filled home.

Speaker 1

Yeah.

Speaker 3

So, yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1

Well, I want to hear tomorrow about your journey to forgiveness. You're the unoffendable guy.

Speaker 3

Yeah. You wrote the book.

Speaker 1

Literally, you wrote the book on unoffendable. And I was offended by my dad and I had to go on a journey.

I'm sure you had the same thing.

And there's some listeners going, okay, I'm not there yet. How do I get there? That'd be an interesting conversation.

Speaker 2

Well, and I think too, I've watched our three sons hear Dave talking about his dad, hearing his life, of what it was like.

And I've seen tears fall down their cheeks of just saying thank you. Thank you for not passing that on to us.

We will be better dads and men as a result of your decision that it will end here.

Speaker 3

Good for them. Good for you. Hey, my name is Brant Hansen and I'm an author and a radio guy and a big fan of this ministry. I'm a fan of what Dave and Ann do on Family Life. The way they honestly talk about things and the way they point to the kingdom of God. There's not much in our culture like this. It's such a refreshing thing.

And I wanted to let you know if you want to donate to support it, it would be wonderful. All this month, your donation gets doubled. And that's a huge thing to support this ministry if you can't totally understand. But if you are in a place where you could do that, thanks for locking arms with Family Life this month and making this incredibly important ministry happen. You will be making a difference.

Speaker 1

I tell you what, we love Brian Hansen.

Speaker 2

We love Brant Hansen.

Speaker 1

We really do. And the fact that he loves us means the world to us.

And if you want to make a donation, as Brandt just said, here's how you can do that. It's pretty simple. Just go to familylifetoday.com; you can make your donation there.

If you'd rather, give us a call. It's 1-800-358-6329. That's 800-F as in family, L as in life, and the word today.

Let me tell you, we would really appreciate you jumping on and being a partner with us as year-end comes. It's a blessing to us, and we want to keep being a blessing to you.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Coming up tomorrow, we've got Brandt Hansen back. You do not want to miss that.

So we will see you back next time for another edition of Family Life Today.

Family Life Today is a donor-supported production of Family Life, a Crew ministry helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.