FamilyLife Today®

Speaker 1

I think when most parents attempt to do family discipleship, they think of that as a weekly family devotion. But that's not discipleship in its fullness. Family discipleship is helping our kids live out who God made them to be in Christ.

So what we want to do is we want to help our kids understand the character of Christ, because the character of Christ drove what he did. The character we've been given in Christ should drive what we do.

Our kids will know what we do long after what we say.

Speaker 2

How do you say your last name?

Speaker 3

No, no, no. That's how I want to start it.

Speaker 1

Okay. I'm not going to tell you. I'm not answering that question.

Speaker 3

I want to start this interview. Don't look at your notes in. You can't look at your notes. I want you to look at me and spell Brian's last name. I want you to spell it.

Speaker 2

All right. D, E, M. Are you looking?

Speaker 1

No, she's looking.

Speaker 2

No, I'm. B, O, W, S, C, H, K.

Speaker 1

Y. Oh, you were doing so well.

Speaker 3

That was cool.

Speaker 1

No, it went off the rails at the end.

Speaker 2

Oh, I did.

Speaker 1

I'm sorry.

Speaker 3

I'm not even gonna look. I'm gonna guess.

Speaker 2

Oh, no, you've looked at it a million times.

Speaker 3

I have. D, E, M, B, O, W, C, Y, S, K, C. Close.

Speaker 1

You're much closer. C, Y, Z, K, Czyk.

Speaker 3

ZZ how you say it?

Speaker 1

Dimbozik.

Speaker 3

Oh, everybody told me bow.

Speaker 1

No.

Speaker 3

And you're a bow hunter, so it makes sense.

Speaker 1

It's supposed to be Dimbuff Check. I think.

Speaker 3

Seriously.

Speaker 1

Seriously. I think that's. I think that's Dimbuff Check is the more proper. But it got Americanized. As much as you can Americanize. That last name.

Speaker 3

What's the history?

Speaker 1

It's Polish. Really?

Speaker 3

Wow. Well, tell our listeners and even our watchers, you know. And they're getting a view today. Two bald guys.

Speaker 1

Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3

And a beautiful woman. What are you? That should be the name of the podcast: Two Bald Guys and a Beautiful Woman.

Tell our watchers what you do and what you have done, because you've done a lot of different things. You were even AIA staff.

I was when we were AIA staff. Athletes in Action.

Speaker 1

In the 90s. Yeah, in the late 90s.

So right now I'm in Bible publishing, but before that I was in church ministry for about 17 years. Pretty much every role but worship, because I can't sing worth a lick.

And then before that, I was on staff with Athletes in Action.

Speaker 3

And today we're Talking about family discipleship.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

How did that become a passion?

Speaker 1

Oh, my goodness. Youth ministry.

Speaker 3

Did that spark it?

Speaker 1

That furthered it? I think it actually goes further back than that because I grew up, so I was in the church in the 70s and 80s and made a decision to follow Jesus when I was about in second grade. But it was so common then that it was kind of like moralism wasn't. It was taught. It wasn't taught intentionally. But that's kind of the modern mindset was whatever's true is true, and you just do what you're told to do. Right.

And so that's kind of the church upbringing I had was, all right, the Bible's true. You read it, you believe it, and then you live it out. But the way you lived it out was just simply by coming to church. I mean, that's when it was like three or four times a week and not doing the naughty things. And that's making God happy. So I grew up under that imagination, which it's not surprising. That didn't draw me in. It didn't draw my heart in. It drew my obedience because I was afraid of making God angry. So my childhood was like that and then into my teenage years.

But then when I got to college, I really stopped going to church until I got connected with crew back when it was called Camping Crusade for Christ. And that's really. I may have come, become a follower of Christ then. I don't know. I don't know if it was second grade or then, but that for the first time, getting to the heart of our faith, of connecting the dots, of understanding that God wanted a relationship with me. That's where the heart started to connect. It took a while, but it started to connect.

So part of this is I think my story is not uncommon. And I don't want it to be. I want it to be uncommon. And I want to come alongside parents and help them disciple children through a lens of the love and the majesty of Christ and to be drawn in and captivated rather than kind of what I started with, of I need to obey God to not be in trouble with him.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And then student ministry furthered that. And God was kind, just kind of taking me and leading me in this path.

Speaker 2

So. So if you look at what's happening today and more and more kids are walking away from the faith that their parents had, why is that? Like, what has happened? What are we doing wrong?

Speaker 1

Yeah. I think part of it is because kids are smart enough to see the disconnect when they see, hey, faith is something that my parents do. They take it out of the cupboard, and on Sunday mornings, they take it out and they clean it off and dust it off and they wear it.

And then they go to church and then they come home and they put it back away and they live a life that's really not much different. Sometimes the positive says they're just decent people. The negative is they live no different than the world.

Speaker 2

So why would I go to church if it's made no difference?

Speaker 1

Exactly. And so I think a lot of kids who are growing up, they become teenagers and so forth.

And also, just the way kids are wired today, they want to be part of something important. They don't want to be part of an institution called the church. They want to be part of making a difference. And so when they don't see that, they push away from it and they find it elsewhere.

And so, again, that's my thinking: if we as parents can help connect these dots, if we can live it out as best we can through the kindness of the Holy Spirit's ministry in us and through us, and then transfer that to our kids, that's going to captivate them, I think, and I hope and I pray.

Speaker 3

I mean, you've seen the studies. I remember, you know, as a pastor for 30 some years, looking at studies about youth ministry which said, basically, youth ministry is important. It's awesome. But a lot of those kids get to college or beyond and they walk away.

The ones that stick are the ones that go home after the youth event and see it lived out in our homes. Those seem to. Again, there's no magic formula, but those seem. That's what you're saying. It's the modeling. It's the living out in the home.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And so my parents were not perfect disciplers. Like, I am not a perfect. My wife and I. I tell people I wrote a book on it, but doesn't mean I'm a perfect discipler at all.

Speaker 2

No.

Speaker 1

But my parents, I could tell their faith meant something to them. And I think that's really what mattered. My wife is the same way. I mean, she saw her father having his daily Bible readings every morning, faithfully. And that connotes something important. This matters.

And so having that, I think, is something that's so important. That's why one of the hearts in writing this book that I had, or part of the heart I had in writing this book, was I want parents to feel positive and hopeful about their discipleship. We beat them up a lot.

But I think what you're talking about, Dave, is so true that, hey, start with those small wins. Simply trying to express your love for Christ, trying to show that this matters. That's a huge win. And you can build from those wins.

Speaker 2

I mean, your book is called Family Discipleship. That works. Guiding your child to know love and act like Jesus, which is amazing. That's what we're all looking for in terms of our kids watching us.

Why aren't we as parents living a life that they would want to model? Like, what's going on with us? Are we just dead spiritually?

Speaker 1

No. In part, yes. We're speaking very broadly, of course.

Speaker 2

Of course.

Speaker 1

And so we have to understand, very broadly speaking, I would think most often it's not that the parent is spiritually dead. The parent doesn't understand what the goal of living for Christ is. Like I didn't. I didn't understand that I was created by God to be in relationship with him and to enjoy his good gifts and worship him accordingly. When I enjoy a good gift that he has given my family—a good meal, a good football game, whatever camping trip—however you connect with the Creator and say thank you for your kindness in giving us this good thing, you are worshiping in that way and delighting in him and serving him by doing what we've been told to do. That is what it's about. It's an adventure. It's amazing. It's wonderful.

What happens is, I think when we have the mentality—and we do this as parents quite a bit—that no, God made me, he sets all these rules, and I kind of have this vision of God in heaven waiting to yell at me, and I have to stay in line. If I get out of line, that's when he gets bent out of shape, and I just have to keep him appeased. I don't have to please him; I just have to keep him appeased, not being angry. That's how I grew up. That sucks the life out of it.

And so I think more often than not, it's that parents simply don't understand what they've been called to do. And by nature, also, what we're called to teach our children—to disciple. That's what we're discipling them toward.

Speaker 2

And I don't think we, most of the time as parents, we hear discipleship. We need to disciple our kids. We need to disciple our kids.

We beat ourselves up, I think, because we don't know how to do that and what it looks like. That's why we need a book like this.

Speaker 1

And that's, you know, you mentioned the title, *Family Discipleship that Works*. We talked about that title quite a bit. We were kind of. And I was really uncomfortable with that at first because it seems like it says something very bold that I don't mean for it to say.

And for a marketing perspective, you want a title that's engaging and creates thought. Of course. But this is not to say that that book contains the only model of discipleship that's effective and others don't. It's really. It's a play on it.

1. The first thing is understanding that Family Discipleship, by and large, has not worked in America since. Since its founding, there's been no generation of parents who have done this well.

Speaker 2

Really?

Speaker 3

And that's a revelation because you sort of think they used to do it well.

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, that's what you hear. How often do you hear somebody who's preaching or you read in a book somewhere?

Parents today are not discipling the home as they should, which is true. The data bears that out. But then they add this like they used to.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

And you'll hear people say, we're two or three generations removed from parents discipling while in the home. So I actually started. This book was built off of my PhD research, and that was the research trail I started with. I said, well, let me find that generation because we can learn from them. What did they do right, that we've gotten away from, that we can return to?

And I started researching and I never found that generation. I went back a couple generations, and guess what? I found a quote that would be from today. Parents today are not discipling the home like they should. We're a couple generations removed.

So I went back a couple more generations, and guess what I found? Statistics. Only about 10 to 15% of parents are discipling in the home, the same statistic that's today. And so I went all the way back to the Puritans, and I could not find a generation of parents that were known to excel in this. And so that was part of.

Speaker 2

It's kind of mind blowing. Are you surprised by that?

Speaker 3

Oh, I remember reading it, and I was blown away because I probably said from the pulpit the same thing. You know, it's a different day. We're not where they used to be.

Speaker 2

Have they done it anywhere in Europe? Did they do it?

Speaker 1

Well, I don't know. I didn't. So my PhD research was limited. But in America, and again, we're speaking broadly, there's always been a faithful remnant, and that could be part of the problem. Some of the pastors probably did grow up in a home where they were discipled, and they're then transferring that and thinking, well, that was normal.

And also, you had the appearances mattered, you know. So did parents usually pray before meals with their kids? A lot more before, probably. But that's not discipleship. It's part of it, but that's not discipleship in its fullness.

Speaker 2

I don't know about you, but I need parenting help. And not just sometimes, most of the time. And so maybe you feel like that too.

We have resources to help you as a parent. You can go to familylife.com/parentinghelp, and you'll find resources that will help you not just once in a while, but as much as you need.

Familylife.com/parentinghelp.

Speaker 3

Why are we not any better today? And why aren't we? Why were we never very good at it?

Speaker 1

Dave, that is the question that my research went to next. I said, well, why hasn't this worked yet? I am convinced that one of the biggest parts is because parents didn't know the goal, the purpose of discipleship, which is really the play on words in the title.

I believe what we're after, the secret sauce, if you will, is not just having kids who know Jesus. I think that's understood—who love Jesus and trust in Jesus—but to live like Jesus, to act like him. I think that's been what's missing: that we are raising up kids who are living and imitating Jesus in their context. That's what they've been called to do. That's what we've been called to do.

Going back to your question, Ann, we as parents miss that. I'm an image bearer. I bear God's image. I am to live as God—not as divinity, of course—but what we share with him in our humanity. I am to live that way in my culture, in my relationships at work and so forth.

Speaker 2

You're the ambassador.

Speaker 1

Yeah, we're the ambassador. We're the little statue.

I love the picture of image bearing that in ancient kingdoms, a king who could not be all throughout his kingdom would carve a statue or have statues carved of himself and place it throughout his domain to mark his territory.

Speaker 3

That's what dads need to do. Put it in the family room and in the bedroom.

Speaker 1

I like it.

Speaker 3

Sit here watching.

Speaker 1

I like it. Put it in the car. That's my car that you're buying. It's not your car.

So I love that picture that we are those image bearers. We are those statues, if you will, as followers of Christ, that God has spread out through his kingdom, the world, to reflect his nature and to reveal his kingdom, his territory.

And so I think that is one of the big things that we as parents need to understand. That's our calling, and that's what we need to help our kids to do.

Speaker 3

And yet it sounds like that's sort of what you did growing up.

Speaker 2

That's what I was going to say.

Speaker 3

You were trying to live like Jesus, but you didn't really have the heart and didn't know him.

Speaker 1

No, I think that's being too fair. I think I knew of Jesus. I didn't know I was supposed to live like him. I knew I wasn't supposed to cuss, I wasn't supposed to drink, I had to go to church on Sunday.

Speaker 2

So you just had the rules.

Speaker 1

I had the rules. And so I use the picture of this. When we think about the Bible, the rules in the Bible, there are a lot of thou shalt and thou shalt nots. I grew up with the King James. So thou shalt and thou shalt not. And you go to those. And that's clear. Whenever the Bible says we are to do something, you do it. You're commanded. When the Bible says you're not supposed to do something, you don't do it.

But everyday life has a lot of room in between that, doesn't it? I mean, the Bible does not tell me point blank thou shalt or shalt not buy a gaming system for my son for Christmas. Right? It doesn't. I can't go to a chapter and verse and say, okay, I should buy a PlayStation for my son. Or it doesn't help my kids know to get a part-time job or to play baseball or to play soccer. Now I would say baseball, we should win that all the time. But that's a different story. It doesn't answer those questions.

And so what we need to do is, as followers of Christ ourselves, but also as parents, help our kids to understand how the Bible informs these decisions. My belief is it informs our decisions when we go back to imitating Jesus, thinking about the character of Jesus, and considering that we have been created to imitate his character in certain ways—his compassion, his love, his friendship. Think about who Jesus was. He's the perfect image of God, so he's our example as an image bearer.

We are to help our kids to make those decisions. So you filter it through that matrix, if you will. It's okay to get a part-time job. Are there ways that can help you imitate Jesus one way or another? And there could be, because that's relationships. It could be earning money that you can be generous with. It could take you away; it could take too much time. There could be negatives and so forth.

But to help our kids navigate that thinking, I'm convinced that's the secret sauce. And that's what I didn't understand, Dave. I compartmentalized. I was all about Jesus on Sunday mornings and Sunday nights and Wednesday nights. But the rest of the week, he wasn't relevant. I was just kind of doing things and, again, not making him mad.

Speaker 3

Yeah. So part of what you're saying, the secret sauce, is you got to know the bullseye. You got to know what the goal is.

Our parenting book, *No Perfect Parents*, had the subtitle: "The Secret to..." I can't remember, but, you know, successful Christian parent or whatever.

Speaker 2

And it was ditch expectations, embrace reality, and discover the one secret that will change your parenting.

Speaker 3

Yeah. You know, trying to get people to go, oh, I gotta know what that one secret was. But it was really like, most parents don't even. They don't know, like, what am I trying to raise when that son or daughter's an adult man or woman? What's the goal?

It looks like from what you said, your subtitle is the same thing. This is the secret: guiding your child to know, love, and act like Jesus.

Okay, explain that. What does that mean as a goal? Know, love, and act.

Speaker 1

So it's that last part that's most significant. Let me start by answering your question this way, Dave. I think when most parents attempt to do family discipleship, they think of that as a weekly family devotion, Bible reading, or whatever. I believe that's a critical part; however, I don't think it's all of it. It's a key part. So they open the Bible and wonder, "What am I doing with this Bible? What's the goal here?"

I think there are a couple of wrong lenses, and I call them wrong because they're incomplete. They're important, but they're incomplete. They can't be the final goal. The first one is, "We're just going to read the Bible so you know it." You know, we're going to read the Bible, and it's information—true information to know—that's important, but that can't be it. It's not a matter of God saying, "All right, I've got this exam now, this final exam, to see if you know this information. If you know it, you're in; and if you don't know it, you're not in." That's not what it's about. That information is meant to be acted upon.

But I think a lot of parents start there, thinking, "I'm just teaching these facts." Then they wonder, "What do I do with this stuff?" That's kind of how I was. What do I do with all these facts? What do I do with these truths? Then I think you have some parents who look at it and say, "Okay, well, no, this isn't just facts. This is history. This is a true story, and you have to believe it." Again, that's an important step. But is that the fullness of it—that we just know this true story and this history of when things happened?

I think others, more recently, say, "I need to teach the Bible because it's a story to believe and trust in—one cohesive story from cover to cover, the story of Jesus." Again, what do you do with that, though? My thinking is that parents are called to do those things. It is true information, true history, and a true story. But the final thing is that we teach the Bible to imitate Jesus. It is a drama to be performed.

I use that drama motif because a story is something you read, and when you're done with a story, what do you do? You set it aside and go on with your life. A drama, however, is not finished until it's performed. Dramas aren't meant just to be read; they're meant to be performed. Our faith is not meant just to be read; it's meant to be performed. It's meant to be lived out, acted out.

So that's the secret sauce to getting to it. It's like whatever we're doing, there are different ways to get there. I propose one plan to disciple in the home, but there are other great plans out there. All those plans should be reaching the same destination: my child knowing who Jesus is, trusting him for salvation, loving him, and then living like him.

Speaker 2

So what's that look like? Give us an example.

Okay. I'm having my daily devotion, I mean, my weekly devotion with my family. We read a Bible story.

Now, how do we get into the? How do we live this out? Do you say that? How are we going to live this out?

Speaker 1

Yeah. So I propose a method in there that kind of walks through that I kind of walk the parents through and say, let's assume you've never done this before.

And what's a good way to do that? It starts with understanding what you're reading.

Again, everything in the Bible is a true story, and there's history there and so forth.

Speaker 2

And you're sharing that with your kids. This is true.

Speaker 1

Exactly. So you're doing, you know, talk about Rahab in Joshua. All right. And so you'd be looking at that and saying, this is a true story. This actually happened.

And so you set it up the best you can as a parent and say, all right, here's where we are in this big metanarrative. God's people started in this area and then they went to Egypt, they became slaves. God released them through Moses and now Joshua's leading them back into the land.

And one of the first things to do is they encounter this city and they meet this woman named Rahab and so forth. So you're setting it up, then you read it together.

And then I always encourage parents, do two things after you read it. Give permission to ask any question. Any question is a good question.

Speaker 2

So you have two sons and a daughter.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 2

So let's say you say, hey, guys, has this just been a rhythm in your family that you're going to have a devotional a certain night or day?

Speaker 1

Yeah, we started with. And we don't do it every single week, especially now that my kids are older and schedules get, you know, when they were a little bit younger, we tried to guard one night a week and do that.

And again, we don't have to be legalist about this. Life gets hectic, it's okay. But you want to build a regular rhythm of doing that.

And so we would do this, we use some catechism questions and that kind of thing as well. And reading the Bible together and they.

Speaker 2

Could hang with you, like let's say, reading this story of Rahab.

Speaker 1

Yeah, you read it and again you give them questions. And that's part of the thing there, Ann. All right, maybe there was a word that you didn't know what that word meant, or maybe something that happened.

Wait a minute, why did they do this? And as parents, the goal is not necessarily to be able to answer all those questions. It's okay if we can't answer a question because we can ask questions too.

The goal there is to say it's okay to have questions.

Speaker 2

And the dialogue.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and the dialogue. It's okay to have questions. And then I encourage what's called wonder statements. And these aren't questions; it's a statement. It's where you just start, you live, you step into it more, and you imagine it more and say, "I wonder what it's like."

I wonder, you know, think about creation. I wonder, you know, what Adam saw. I wonder, you know, when all the animals were praying. I wonder if they were in a line, you know, and you just have fun just saying whatever kind of sparks your interest.

And again, what you're doing is you're inviting this time to step into God's word and say, "This is real," and delight in it. And again, it's a fun time. I do this. I teach an adult Bible study group at my church, and we use this method.

Speaker 2

It's a good idea.

Speaker 1

It's a lot of fun. So then you do that, and then you get to connecting it to Jesus.

Ann, to get back to your question. So once you kind of navigate the story itself and mine it for its riches the best you can, then it's a matter of saying, all right, where do we see the character of Jesus demonstrated by somebody here, either positively or negatively?

Speaker 2

And this is throughout the Bible.

Speaker 1

Throughout the Bible.

Speaker 2

Old Testament, too.

Speaker 1

Old Testament, too. So think of Samson. Samson. I have trouble finding very many things redeeming about him, but you look for negative examples. Samson was arrogant. Does that look like Jesus? What do we know about Jesus? No, Jesus was humble. And so we turn that around and say we can find the humility of Jesus through looking at the arrogance of Samson. Rahab had amazing faith. Here was this woman from outside of God's people, and she's professing this amazing faith. That sounds a lot like Jesus. Jesus trusted the Father completely. You think later, where Joshua made good on the promise they made to Rahab, there's some character. So you're looking for the character marks.

Speaker 2

Why are you doing that part?

Speaker 1

Because that's what it is, is we have to understand what we do comes from who we are. And that's so important. This is why, as we talk about living out Jesus and imitating Jesus, it comes from who we've been made in Christ, that we were made originally as image bearers. So everybody's an image bearer. But when we are saved, when we trust in Christ, we're renewed. We're given the Holy Spirit, and we're actually able to live as we were designed originally to live. So it's through the Spirit's power. It's not our own power. It's the Spirit's power. And we're living our true identity. So what we want to do is we want to help our kids understand the character of Christ, because the character of Christ drove what he did. The Character we've been given in Christ should drive what we do. So going back to Samson, when I see the arrogance of Samson and I see the humility of Christ, it drives me to. Then we can start thinking about how can we imitate in our context. What are some ways that I can show arrogance and pride? Think about the baseball field, you know, or the football field. Is there ever a time where an athlete can become arrogant? Sure there are. And so there's something we can talk about as a family. What do you think would be the more Christ honoring way to behave and act after you hit a home run? You know, it doesn't mean you can't celebrate, but where's the humility, you know, or go a little bit better. How can we be more humble as an athlete, Helping our teammates, respecting the other team and so forth, respecting the umpires and coaches, so forth. You can find so many connecting points to how this imitates. And then as your kids get older, like my kids, they have part time jobs. How are you imitating Jesus? With humility, with love, with compassion and so forth in your part time job? At school, in the neighborhood, in the home. So the character is the starting point and it pushes out into how we live that out.

Speaker 3

And it also sounds like, because you're also. I mean, it's even in your mission statement that they act like Jesus. Jesus has to be center.

Speaker 1

Yes.

Speaker 3

I mean, almost like you have to start there. Because if you're talking about Samson and then comparing him to Jesus, you got to know Jesus, right?

Speaker 1

Exactly, exactly. That's why my encouragement to parents is you start there with the New Testament, with Jesus and you kind of read through and you think, what are the marks of Jesus? So his compassion is one that stands out the most to me. If you look in the New Testament, several times the New Testament writers reserved a Greek word for compassion that they only used of Jesus. And I think they did that on purpose, inspired by the Holy Spirit, of course, but they did that because they wanted to show us that there was something above and beyond about the compassion of Jesus. And you see this a couple of times. It was at the feeding of the 5,000 and the 4,000 that Jesus had this deep compassion for because they were hungry, they were distressed, and so he acted on that compassion. And so we think about it, okay? If we've been made to imitate Jesus and compassion is one of the marks of Jesus that we should have, then that takes us readily to how can we have compassion in our culture? Isn't that so desperately Needed. God's people have got to raise up and we've got to live in greater compassion for those around us. We're so good at judging, we're not that good at having compassion a lot of times. So what a great conversation for parents to be having in the homes with kids of saying, what does it look like to live in compassion? Doesn't mean you have to agree with everything the other person is doing. Jesus didn't agree with everything those he extended compassion to were doing, but his compassion for them compelled him to meet their needs as he could. So my heart is as a parent, myself, as other parents, let's raise up kids who are compassionate for others who are doing everything they can to meet needs as they can. You know, feeding the hungry and so forth and doing this and caring for the distress, caring that that kid is sitting by himself or herself at the lunchroom at school and having compassion to do something about those things.

Speaker 3

Now what do you do if you've got a son or daughter that says, I don't want to participate, I don't want to do this, I'm not coming to family devotion, I'm not interested in going to church with you. I'm guessing teenage years, middle school, high, you know, older, could be, could be a 10 year old, but definitely a teenager says, okay, I've been raised in this home, you do this, I'm out.

Speaker 1

Yeah, no, that's a fantastic question. And that of course shows there's a heart issue underneath. And I would say that really requires a lot of patience, trusting God's sovereignty in this and being gentle and giving time. What we don't want to do, and this is what we see often is, and it's totally understandable. Again, I'm a father of three and if one of my kids said that to me, one of the first things my instinct would be to reach out, grab and pull in, right? Because no, this is the most important thing in the world is our faith. And if my child is hinting or saying a turning from Christ, then that's going to panic me and I'm going to pull in closer and tighter. But the more we do that, you guys are parents, you know, the kid's going to respond by pushing farther away. So I think we've got to give permission for our kids to wrestle and grapple. And I think when we do that, when we respect them and love them enough to acknowledge their wrestling and to give them permission to do it again, it goes back to why I think we have to set a foundation of Asking questions in our devotions, it's okay to have questions. It's okay to have doubts. And so we need to give them that. We need to bathe that in prayer. And then we need to pray for those times to have those conversations. What's going on? Why are you pushing Jesus away? What is it about? And explore these issues together.

Speaker 2

I think, too, even to find out, is this about Jesus or is this about me?

Speaker 1

Or the church? That's a biggie.

Speaker 2

Or the church. That's a biggie. And the other thing I was thinking was, with our kids, is there a time that you've had like, this? Like, man, this was amazing. This was so good. Our time together is a devotional. And then do you have one that went just totally bad? You know, maybe you have a few of both.

Speaker 1

I'm guessing you have many, many of both. Yeah, there have been times I can't. None's jumping to my head immediately where, you know, the angels were singing over our shoulders as we had. Those were usually just, you know, the times where you're having a decent conversation with them.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And they're asking those good questions again. I mentioned it many times. I just love it. Goes back to my student ministry days. I love when somebody asks questions, sincere questions.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

Because that shows me I want to learn something. And so engaging in those questions have always been wonderful. We've had our devotions go off the rails. There have been times where we tried to force it. There have been times we've yelled at our kids, sit down. We're gonna have devotions. And we've had to realize, my wife and looked and I said, oh, no, we're not having devotions. It's done. Just pull the eject handle. You know, we've experienced bodily noises being made in middle of devotions and so forth. So, yeah, we probably had more of those than the angelic singing, I figured.

Speaker 2

But I wanted to bring it up because I think we have expectations of what it should look like or what very godly people probably have it look like. And so I think we can be intimidated, and we think, this isn't working. My kids are disinterested and I'm boring. And, you know, and I think that's normal.

Speaker 1

It is totally normal. That's why I always encourage parents. You start with a very low bar.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And you go after small wins, and you build on those wins. The problem is, a lot of times we have this expectation. We think a family devotion should look like church, which means it should be about an hour long. It should be really serious and somber a lot of times and so forth. And I need to pray these really eloquent prayers, and I need to be able to exegete the Bible text to my kids. And that's intimidating. That's absurd. So I'm like, no, it's a win. If you just sit down for three minutes after having dinner one night and you read the same passage that was preached on Sunday and just read it together, that's a win.

Speaker 2

And then you have. What do you call them? Wonder statements.

Speaker 1

Yeah, the wonder statements.

Speaker 2

I like that. Yeah, I could do that a long time. I do it every day anyway.

Speaker 1

You do.

Speaker 3

She's always doing that with me. And, you know, where we started a little while ago, you know, saying that they're watching how we live the model. I don't think we can emphasize that enough. It's like, it's so critical again now. We're not perfect in any way. In fact, one of the models could be that when we do mess up, when we do let them down, we apologize and we own our sin and we own our mistakes. But that modeling, I don't know how you overestimate. That is so important to your teenage boy and girl.

Speaker 1

That is so important. So I wrote a story in there, and I'll tell the story again briefly. And I have not done very well at this. And so this is one of the few times I actually had a win in it. But my daughter, when she was in 10th grade, so she wasn't driving yet. And so thankfully, she has her own car now, so she drives herself to school. I don't have to worry about this again. But I would have to pick her up every once in a while. And I would usually try to park in the same place in a parking lot. Think of a busy high school. Crowded. It's crazy pandemonium when class gets out and so forth. And so I'm parked in this spot, and Hannah texts me, and she says, dad, where are you? And so I said, I'm at Unusual Spot. I'm between the school and the middle school across the street. I mean, if you just drew a straight line, you would hit it a couple seconds later, dad, where are you? I'm right out. If. I mean, seriously, if you left the front door of the school and you just started walking toward the middle school, you will walk into my car. And she two or three more times, dad, where are you? And so I. I lost it. I got frustrated. I said. I said, hannah, I am. I'll drive around and get you and so I, I fight the traffic and I, I'm going against traffic at that point. Drive around to the, to the front of the school, pick her up. She gets in the car and I said, hannah, I was right there. And tears just. And she's dead. I didn't do anything wrong. And so I'm too prideful in the moment. I'm like, yes, you did. You should have just walked out. You would have hit the car. And so we drive home in silence. It's about a five minute drive home in silence. And we get home and God just took the divine two by four to the back of my head. He said, brian, you were a Neanderthal. You were a jerk of a dad. And so I went in and I said, sweetheart, I am just so sorry. You didn't do anything wrong. I should not have treated it like that. Will you forgive me? And immediately forgave me. And so, yeah, that was one of the times. Again, I don't do that nearly as much as I need to, but it's one of the times that God was kind enough to impress on my heart the need to do that. And I obeyed and did that. And thankfully my daughter showed me Christ more than I showed her Christ. And she forgave me immediately without condition. Didn't even give me I told you so or anything. Just, I forgive you, dad. And so, yeah, that's a time where she needed to see that, but I needed to see that from her. And again, she showed me Jesus.

Speaker 2

And that's the part that you talk about discipling as you go, because you have these great or subgreat discipleship and Bible reading devotionals. But when you talk about filling in the space in between those, that's like you were discipling in terms of your repentance to Hannah and she showed you the grace, which was sweet. And even to have that conversation, that's discipling to me because life is messy and we fail all the time. And so I think that's the part too, I'm seeing that more and more, is we're talking about it little pieces as we go. What does that look like? What's that look like for you guys?

Speaker 1

Yeah, And I think that like Deuteronomy 6, of course, the shemonah, that is the classic passage for family discipleship. Right. But really when you look at that a little bit more closely, that has less the weekly planned family worship time in mind and more of the as.

Speaker 3

You were going, as you sleep, as you lay down, as you get up.

Speaker 2

As you Eat as you walk along the way.

Speaker 1

I think really it's a both and that we need those regular family times because those keep Christ more in our forethinking. But it's those organic as you are going moments that I think is where the gold is found. That's where we show our kids that we're not compartmentalized, that we don't just pull Jesus out for Sunday mornings in our weekly family devotions, that Jesus should be ever present in our life and he should be instructing our behavior and influencing things. So I encourage parents to try to always be on the lookout for these moments, engage with culture. So watching sports and you see an athlete who behaves inappropriately. What a great conversation prompt. Or you go to a movie and you come out of the movie and you start talking about what happened. Why do you think that character did what he or she did? Commercials. What's the gospel in this commercial? And a lot of times that gospel is, if you buy this vehicle, you'll be happy. And so is that a true gospel? And start talking about these things as you are engaging with your kids, telling you about their day, and they tell you about a conflict they had. And you just rehearse that with them and you're just drawing these biblical principles to bear. And again, these biblical principles that are. There are times. Yes. That we need to do the thou shalt or thou shalt not. But more often than not, it's that finding that middle ground of what would be the way of Jesus. You guys remember the what would Jesus do bracelets?

Speaker 2

Sure.

Speaker 1

That has become a joke in many Christian circles. You know, the WWJD bracelets and everything. But, man, wasn't that a beautiful. And isn't it a beautiful truth?

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

To keep in mind, what would Jesus do in this? And for us to think I'm to imitate Jesus. So as I'm imitating Jesus, what's the proper way to respond in these different contexts? That I think is where we can help our kids connect their faith to everyday living. And that's the beauty of it all.

Speaker 3

Yeah. I think as we talk Even about Deuteronomy 6 again, what Ann and I did when you said that passage, oh, as you walk a long way and you sit at the table. And I think a lot of us as parents missed the verse before it, which is so interesting. I just pulled it up. Deuteronomy 6. Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all Your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts, Impress them on your children, talk about them when you sit at home. And I think we skipped this part. These commandments I give you today are beyond your heart. These are the parents hearts. Like you can't give away what you don't first possess. And so we, we sort of, we lean toward. I need a model, I need a book, I need a strategy. Give it to me, I'm gonna do this. If we have a family devotion once a week, we do this and that. All that's important and key. But if it's not real in the parent's heart, you're not gonna give it. You're not gonna. It's not gonna overflow. It's gonna be a, it's gonna be a strategy that your kid's gonna be. This isn't authentic.

Speaker 1

I know.

Speaker 2

You read a book, you put it on the shelf.

Speaker 1

Yeah, well, and that's the thing is that will communicate more than anything else a parent's heart for Christ. That's what it's all about. And so our kids don't need seminary professors. And again, nothing wrong with seminary professors. A lot of them love Jesus. Not setting a dichotomy up. But my point is they don't need somebody just to say, let me just vomit all this information on you. And like all my parents know all this stuff. They need parents who love Jesus.

Speaker 3

You know, before we continue, let me say this. At Family life, we really believe strong families can change the world. And when you become a family life partner, you can make that happen.

Speaker 2

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Speaker 3

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Speaker 2

And you can go to familylife today.com and click the donate button to join today. That's familylife today.com.

Speaker 3

All right, let's get back to the conversation. What do you think?

Speaker 2

Good idea. And I think too, like, I used to be able to track how I'm doing spiritually by what's coming out of my mouth to my kids about Jesus. If there's not a lot that I'm talking to them about of what I've been learning, not what they should be doing, but what I've been learning or how God's been convicting me, then I know I've gotten a little lukewarm. But when he is, like, right on the surface and I'm in the Word and I'm learning new things, I'm talking about it. I was just thinking about this. Last week, we had a guy on the deck who was giving us a quote to fix our deck. And I come out, Dave's like, you need to meet this guy. Super nice. This guy starts telling us his story, which is so rough. Lost his dad, lost his son, lost his brother. Like, it's horrific. And he's starting to cry. We end up. And he's like, I can't believe I'm talking to you guys. Because he knows that we're in spiritual work. And he goes, I've given up on that guy, given up on God.

Speaker 3

And me and the guy upstairs aren't talking much anymore. I'm pretty upset with him. And he had every reason to be. Really horrific. Bad things just happened to him. Bad.

Speaker 2

So by the end, we ended up laying hands on him, praying for him, praying that he would understand and know that God loves him, that he sees him. And this guy, as we get done praying, he's just this big guy, just crying. And I remember we were supposed to be at our son's. We text him, hey, we can't make it. We're sharing Christ with this guy. And I tell our grandkids about it later in the day. Like, man, this guy's had some really rough things happen. And yet we were telling him about Jesus, how even in the midst of hard things, God is still good and he still sees us. And we said to this big guy on our deck, like, isn't it amazing? And he was at the point where he was on the Mackinac Bridge getting ready to jump when he lost a son. And then we said, isn't it amazing that you're here? Because he's right on this precipice of, is God good? Can I trust him? And so even sharing that with our kids and our grandkids, God is good from what we've seen, and we can trust him, but if we aren't in it, we're not going to share that.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And I would say along those same lines. You know, a lot of parents can start with even a little bit, for lack of better word, easier of a context. And I'm always about finding small wins and building.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 1

And so some parents are like, man, I don't know if I would be comfortable sharing, you know, Christ like you did. So.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 1

And I think that's where it goes back to character, that now, again, it's. I like the show and tell. Remember we used to show and tell in school? Our faith is designed to be show and tell. We're to show it and tell. It can't be one or the other, both. But at times there could be a time for just showing, and other times there may be time just for telling.

Speaker 2

And that doesn't feel as intimidating.

Speaker 1

No. So, for example, we just did some patio work and we had a team of four men who came and they were speaking Spanish. I can't speak Spanish. And so they came and they were getting ready to do work and they were there before the hour. They could actually start because of noise. And so I brought them out a coffee pot and set up some coffee for them and brought some apples and so forth. I'm just trying to show I care and I see they're humans and they're guests in my home even though they're doing work. And so they started doing work. And my oldest son, who's 20, he was out doing some other things and he came home midway through, and I was so proud of him when he saw them. The first thing he did is he asked them if they needed water. And so he came in and I was like, hey, did you see the crew? He said, yeah, I asked them if they needed water. And I was so proud of him because that was showing a moment of compassion. And those are the things. Those are wins. Did he express Christ to them? No, we didn't have that opportunity. One, there's a language barrier problem, but he at least had a moment of showing Christ in some way that God can use the spider web. That has often been described as one person doing this, another person doing this. That can lead toward a path of Christ being shared with these individuals.

Speaker 2

Point.

Speaker 3

Now, as you think about, I said it earlier, Family. Your book title, Family. Discipleship. That works. What doesn't work?

Speaker 1

Yeah, I think it goes back to. Well, first of all, when we are devoid of the heart, as we've been talking about. So if you take the heart of following Christ out of it, that's not going to work. But then I think it's a lot of times where you are stopping short of that end goal of my kid living as Jesus. So this will sound off at first, but bear with it. It's not even enough to have your kid trust in Jesus. That's critical. Do not mishear me. That is critical. It's essential. But that's not the Stopping point. If that were the stopping point, as soon as we trusted Christ, he would call us home. We're left here for a reason. So if our goal as parents discipling is I simply need to get my kids saved, I need fire insurance for my kid, we are stopping short. And that will not be effective. Family discipleship, that could be effective family evangelism. But family discipleship is helping our kids live out who God made them to be as image bearers made new in Christ. And so anything that stops short of my child knowing Jesus, loving Jesus, trusting him for salvation, and in that salvation empowered by the Spirit, living like Jesus, then I think it's not going to be effective.

Speaker 2

I was just thinking about fruit. Like, you're looking for fruit. You're a fruit inspector. Like, you can see an apple tree, and if it has no fruit on it, you're not sure what kind of tree it is. But then when you see it produce an apple, you're like, oh, that's an apple tree. So you're looking for the fruit it's demonstrated.

Speaker 1

And that's, you know, really what advanced my thinking on this, what helped crystallize it, as I was, you know, doing my PhD research on why haven't families discipleship flourished and what's the. What's missing?

Speaker 3

What, you got a PhD?

Speaker 2

Yeah, yeah, he already said that before.

Speaker 3

I didn't know you're a doctor. We didn't call you doctor.

Speaker 1

Yeah, and I'm glad you didn't.

Speaker 3

Yeah, well, I'm going to call you doctor from now on anyway.

Speaker 2

You don't even have it on your title.

Speaker 1

I think it's on the back thing, but no, it's not on the title.

Speaker 3

Let's see, is it on the back?

Speaker 2

I think it's Dr. Brian.

Speaker 1

Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 3

It's not even on the back.

Speaker 1

Don't do that.

Speaker 2

I like it.

Speaker 3

So that's humility he's talking about.

Speaker 2

I know exactly he's demonstrating.

Speaker 3

If I had a doctorate, I think I'd make my wife call me Doctor.

Speaker 2

He wouldn't do it either.

Speaker 1

This won't be. Don't add this on the podcast. I have two doctorates, but only my.

Speaker 3

Doctors are talking, right?

Speaker 1

So have you ever seen spies like us? There's a scene in there with all the doctors. Meaning doctor, Doctor, doctor. I just got two doctorates. I want to do that with myself.

Speaker 3

And they're in. What are your PhDs?

Speaker 1

Well, one's a PhD, one's a DMin, Doctor of Ministry, and then the PhD is in ministry.

Speaker 3

Oh, wow.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Tell us more about your research.

Speaker 1

Yeah, I don't remember where we're going.

Speaker 3

I could distract. Pretty good. You asked him.

Speaker 2

You. Yeah, I forget.

Speaker 3

I didn't ask him.

Speaker 2

No, he was sharing about his.

Speaker 1

No, I remember. I was going to talk to Matthew 25.

Speaker 2

There it is. Yes.

Speaker 3

That's what you did your doctorate on.

Speaker 1

No, I didn't do the doctrine. I did the doctrine on the basis of the book.

Speaker 3

Okay, I want theology on the sheep and the goats.

Speaker 1

Okay, let's talk some sheep and the goats. So as I was doing research and, you know, as I was trying to study, why has family discipleship not worked in America? What's been missing? What has been the one thing that seems like we kept getting wrong over and over and started God drawing me in this understanding and this belief that it's rooted in living out our faith. Matthew 25, the parable of the sheep and the goats really became influential because as you look at that, that's one parable. As you read it, you're like, jesus, you have terrible theology when you read it the first time, because he's like, all right, on the Day of Judgment, we're going to have the sheep over here and the goats over here, and the sheep are going to be over there because they fed people and they clothed people and they visited people. And the goats are over there because they didn't do those things. And you're like, what?

Speaker 2

Maybe you should read it, Dave.

Speaker 3

It's a works theology.

Speaker 1

Yes. It feels like Jesus is saying, it's a works if you do these things. The social gospel of the 1960s or whatever it was, that just feeding people will feed them into heaven. And it feels like, all right, Jesus, what am I missing here? Surely you're not a terrible theologian. But I think the point is. And it becomes profound when you stop and think about it. You shouldn't have to ask, have you trusted in me? Because it's apparent. And as you were saying, apple trees bear apples. That's how you know an apple tree. I can't identify an apple tree by the leaves or the branches or anything. It's got to have apples on it. And if it has apples on it, then I know, oh, that's an apple tree. And I think that's the sheep and the goats. Jesus is saying, look, you will know who's my follower. You won't have to ask them, because they're going to be living it out.

Speaker 2

I'm going to read it. Then the king will say to those on his right, come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in. I was naked and you gave me clothing. I was sick and you took care of me. I was in prison and you visited me. So they were doing. That was the fruit. You could see it.

Speaker 1

Yeah. And that for that word, for F O R is so important because that's cause and effect. He says right there you're going to be coming into the kingdom for you did these things because you did these things. Here's the reason. And again, it feels wrong.

Speaker 2

Yeah. It feels like a works theology.

Speaker 1

It does. Until you go a layer underneath and realize Jesus. Point is. And when you look at the fuller counsel of scripture, which makes sense when you look at the book of James, how can you say you have faith but you're not living it out? When you look at Ephesians 2:10, Ephesians 2:1:9 is this beautiful treatise of the gospel. And a lot of times we stop at verse nine and we're like, oh yeah, by grace we've been saved. And we cut off verse 10, which is part of that thought because we've been created for good works. And so the parable of the sheep and the goats, I think that's the underneath. That's underneath of it all is saying my followers will be known. They will live it out. Think about Jesus. What did he say? The invitation he extended so many times, Follow me. He didn't say, here, let me give you an invitation. Believe in what I'm going to tell you. That was part of it. He didn't give me an invitation of trust in me. That's part of it. His invitation was to follow me. What does that mean? Live like I live. Do as I do. Imitate what I do. Not the divinity, of course.

Speaker 3

Right, right.

Speaker 1

But the perfect humanity.

Speaker 3

Now what would you say to the parent who feels like they did it? They did. Family discipleship, that works. They. And again, they're as humbly as they can say it, but they're saying, I think I really did live it. You know, I was a hypocrite at times, but most of the time I lived it. I did all the right things I could. I got my kids in church. We had devoted, you know, whatever, all the different stuff. And their son or daughter now is an adult and has walked away deconstructed. It's the rage of the day. Everybody's Talking about it, and that parent feels so broken.

Speaker 1

What would you say to them that's so hard? We're not guaranteed. So I wouldn't say this directly to them. Let me just talk around this for a second. We're not guaranteed that our discipleship efforts will result in salvation. It's not that direct. Now, I think we have a good case to stand on that saying. That's the pattern that we normally see in God's kindness and goodness. Generally, that is a response. Usually the fruit of faithfulness, generally is faithfulness, but not always. So you always. We're going to have these accounts, these heartbreaking accounts of parents who have struggled to live it out, who love Jesus themselves and have a child for whatever reason departs. Just like we have the opposite. We have kids who grow up in a family that is devoid of Christ, devoid of the Gospel. And in God's kindness, they're drawn to Christ and they're living it out. So you have both of these at play. But those parents who are doing that, that have strived to live it out and to disciple, and for whatever reason that has happened, man, I would just want to mourn with them in this season and prayerfully, a temporary season. It's not over yet. As long as that child's still breathing, there's opportunities for God to draw him or her to himself. But I would want to sit with them and recognize the difficulty of it. I mean, as a father of three, I wouldn't need spiritual platitudes right away. I wouldn't even need encouragement right away. I wouldn't need to be Job's friends at first, when they got it right. Job's friends got it right at first. And then they messed up. Because at first, what did they do? They sat with him and it's mourned with him. And so I think that parent to know that there's somebody else who cares deeply. Not as deeply as they do, of course, but cares deeply. And then at some point, depending on the relationship, to start pointing them to some of these truths. Hey, as deeply as you care about this, guess who cares about even more? God the Father.

Speaker 2

And think of all the rebellious children God had.

Speaker 1

Exactly. And then think about God as in the long plan. And we don't know what he's going to do. We don't know what tomorrow holds. And we're going to pray toward that end. We're going to pray. We're going to beg with God to draw our child to himself, but we're going to trust him in that season. We're not going to like it, don't have to like it. It's okay. It's okay to be upset with God. It's okay to be angry with God. If we are drawing that anger and that questions toward God, help me understand and help me to trust. And so to know that and to know that, it's the long play in mind that we have to be praying for and to continue. How can I continue modeling love and grace and security? It's okay for my child to tell me and to come at me and say, I don't believe this. To keep those doors, conversation open and to do that for a time and just try to encourage that parent in that. But I think that's the big thing. God the father loved your child more than you do. God the Father is aware of this situation more than you know. And even though we can't see it on the side of eternity, fight to trust.

Speaker 2

I love everything you said, Brian. Like, there's a heavenly father who knows the story, hopefully isn't over yet.

Speaker 3

It isn't over.

Speaker 2

And there's always times. And he loves them so much more than we do and he's pursuing them. But I love this idea of having something, having a book, having a discipleship plan, even to have that conversation with your husband or your kids tonight. Like, what would it look like? You guys, I'd love to start doing this, that we have a family devotional. But then we start looking at, like, how can our lives look more like Jesus? How can we demonstrate to the world that we follow him? I mean, your kids, if they're teenagers, they could be like, wait, what are we doing? But I'm telling you, secretly there's something inside of them. They're like, wow, this is intriguing. And little kids are gonna love it. It might be chaotic, but yeah, I.

Speaker 3

Was gonna say, just remember, if they're little kids, it's not gonna go the way you hope.

Speaker 1

No, never.

Speaker 3

Poop and farts and chaos and you know what? Make it fun and keep going.

Speaker 1

And I was invited to speak at a conference at a church. And they had me come in and talk about family discipleship. And they had a question and answer time during it. And one of the questions was they wrote them down ahead of time. And we kind of reviewed them and I think I got them all of them. But at least it gave me a chance to kind of prepare ahead of time. And so one of the questions was, I had taken my oldest son with me and the children's person who was hosting it, she Had a son, my oldest son's age, too, and they kind of connected during this time. They were kind of sitting together. And so this person, one of the participants, said, I would love to hear from your son what was most meaningful to him in discipleship and so forth. And so I went up to Joshua, my oldest, and I said, hey, would you want to answer this? You don't have to. And he said, sure. So we actually invited both sons up, and they both answered. And my son's answer was basically this. I can't remember anything specifically. My dad taught me, but I remember him modeling and the love and so forth. And that it just reaffirms. So here's the guy at this family discipleship workshop who wrote a book. He's supposed to be the expert on this stuff, right? And what did my own son say? He affirmed this truthfulness. Our kids will know what we do long after what we say.

Speaker 3

Yep.

Speaker 2

So good. That's a perfect way to end it.

Speaker 3

And I'll say this. You can get family discipleship. That works. Go to familylifetoday.com, just click the link in the show notes, and we'll send it to you.

Speaker 2

Hey, thanks for watching, and if you like this episode, you better like it. Just hit that like button, and we'd.

Speaker 3

Like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can't say the words subscribe. Hit the subscribe button.

Speaker 1

I don't think.

Speaker 2

I didn't say this word like and subscribe.

Speaker 1

Look at that.

Speaker 3

You say it so easy. Subscribe. There he goes.