FamilyLife Today®

Shelby Abbott: If you have the neediness before God and know who he is in your life, you will not constantly be clamoring for the attention of other people. You will walk into a room and, as Sam Allberry once said, you will walk into a room and go not, "Here I am," you will go, "There you are." And you will live your life the way that Jesus did, as a servant.

Ann Wilson: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I'm Ann Wilson.

Dave Wilson: And I'm Dave Wilson, and you can find us at familylifetoday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

All right, so we've got Shelby Abbott back in the studio with us. It's going to be a flummoxed day. That was the word of the day yesterday; it will not be the word today.

I spoke this morning to a men's breakfast for a church here in Orlando, and you walk in, you grab breakfast, you sit at a table. There's a table leader. There's no music; there's nothing. "Glad you're here. Here's our speaker. Here's the topic of the day." He's done, now talk. And they bond. In the soul of a man is a longing to be known, but it's also scary.

Ann Wilson: And every wife is hoping, "I hope my husband goes." But I do think men are afraid. They would say, "I have friends—football friends who talk and watch games or fantasy football friends." They don't even really talk to each other that much. But when they think about, "Wait, he's going to ask me if I looked at porn? He's going to ask me if my wife and I had a real conversation this week? I'm afraid." But when men go there, it's where God meets you and changes your life.

Shelby Abbott: Anything that's truly joyful and soul-satisfying has to come through effort; it has to come through hard work. If you desire something deeper than what you're experiencing now but you're afraid, you have to face it head-on. You have to walk through that in order to get to the other side.

Why do people lift weights? Or why do they do cardio? Running is not fun. Lifting weights is not fun. But people experience the pleasure and the benefits of that on the other side, so they enter into the pain in order to see the pleasantness on the other side, to experience the pleasantness on the other side.

You have to go through the difficulty in order to get that. Why would it be any different socially, emotionally, or even psychologically? You've got to face that kind of stuff in order to get to a more robust, authentic version of who you are.

Ann Wilson: Well, as we've talked about that and we go into these areas like we need friendship, when we don't have that and we're lonely, where do we go? We're trying to fill these holes in our soul and that gap of being lonely. And as you talk to this younger generation, what are the things that have really stuck out to you that you're like, "Oh man, this thing is just killing us"?

Shelby Abbott: I highlighted four things specifically in the book. I'm not saying this is universal to everyone, of course, but just looking at this grand sweep of what young people are wrestling with, I highlighted digital identities that we try to create. Some people call them avatars or whatever. It's your persona of who we are out there in the digital world. That could be through Instagram or Facebook, it could be who I am on YouTube, it could be even hiding behind a podcast and saying, "This is who I exhibit to the world for them to see."

And honestly, it's a part of who we are, but it's not genuinely who we are because everything that we put out there online is edited content. All of it. If you don't like the picture that you just took, you can take another one from an angle that you actually think you look attractive in. Or that video—I said something stupid at the end, I'm going to edit that part out. Or this part made me look foolish, so I'm not going to take that part out.

When you think about that, if you have a curated persona, that's not actually who you are. People need to see the warts and all. They need to see the garbage in your life if they want to get a full, robust picture of who you are.

Why is it that people get up front and they speak and they have a certain characteristic online, and then you find out that they got a divorce, or their life is falling apart, or they cheated on their spouse, or they're treating their kids like garbage, or they don't really have any friends? And we go, "Wow, what happened to that person?" Well, the truth is it was always there, and they just didn't deal with it. They were just really good at hiding it from everybody else when they put their digital presence out there online.

Ann Wilson: Which is crazy because we just talked about how we're longing for authenticity, and yet we're faking our image. It doesn't make sense.

Shelby Abbott: It's because we're afraid. We're definitely afraid if people actually knew me. Paul Tripp talks about this a lot. The questions are: Will I be loved? That's the ultimate question that everybody wrestles with. Will I be loved? And then the second question is even more terrifying, which is: If people really knew me, would they still love me?

And I think that is the center of what we're wrestling with. If people actually knew me, they wouldn't love me because I know who I am at the core of my being, and I cannot put that out there for people to see because if they saw it, I would not be loved.

Dave Wilson: How do you get over that belief? Because when you said it, I thought 90% of us think that. If they really knew, they wouldn't love me. We even do it in our marriage. So how do you overcome that? It's a lie, but how do you overcome it?

Shelby Abbott: At the risk of sounding reductionist and super churchy, the answer is the gospel. It is. Now, what does that mean? Let's flesh that out a little bit.

I think that most of the problems I've witnessed in myself, in my friends, in my marriage, with my kids—most of those problems that you see, if you try to get to the bottom of it, the root of stuff, not the symptoms, but the root—if you get to the base of it, it's a wrestle with understanding who you are in Jesus.

Identity is a huge issue amongst young people. They would never probably use the word identity; they think that's silly to say that. But when you look at their lives, they're wrestling with identity issues. Any young kid who's trying to impress other people is wrestling with identity issues. Any person who's struggling with a big, huge conflict in their marriage and blaming the other person, blaming their spouse, is wrestling with identity issues about who they are.

Any friendship that's gone awry in some form or fashion and they're angry at their friend for being a hypocrite or calling them out on whatever or not spending enough time on them is wrestling with identity issues. They are struggling with not believing the truth about who they are in Jesus.

If you get to that base level and finally understand who you are in Jesus, then everything from the ground up starts to be side issues as opposed to the core of who you are. If you know who you are in Jesus and you know that he is perfectly content with you if you are in him, that he loves you, that he accepts you, that he forgives you, that he's wild about you, that he genuinely cares about every detail of your life—then if your friend doesn't believe that about you, then it's okay.

Now, I'm not saying it's not going to be a struggle. There have been plenty of times when I've entered into other people's lives. Something happened to me on Friday, and then something happened to me on Monday as well, where I was accused of something that I am in my heart of hearts, I am not guilty of. They questioned my motives.

And that was a difficult conversation to have. And I didn't defend myself in that moment, but I just go, "Who am I in Jesus?" Is it enough that my relationship with him is all that I really need foundationally?

And if I believe that genuinely, Jesus accepts me for who I am, not for what I've done, because he's selected me, that he's brought me into his kingdom, that he's forgiven me of my sin, that he's wild about who I am, that he loves me to the core, my flaws and all—then that misunderstanding is just a misunderstanding that I can work out. And even if they never accept me, it's okay because I have the smile of my Savior. I have the acceptance of my Savior.

And again, it's not that it's not difficult. I'm still wrestling with that right now. This morning, I was praying about that and going, "Lord, she doesn't understand me. She doesn't understand me. If she just understood." Well, what if she never understands me? What if she believes the worst in me? What am I going to do? Die on the vine and spend my life trying to be accepted by this one person who has influence and power? No. I have the acceptance of my Savior. Is that enough for me? And everybody needs to ask that question who's in Jesus. Is that enough? Because most of the time, it's not enough.

Ann Wilson: I remember our kids saying that. I would say Psalm 139: "You've been fearfully and wonderfully made. Be your authentic self because it's amazing who God created you to be." And as I'm saying that to them, I'm really saying it to myself too. And they would say, "I know Jesus loves me. I know you guys love me, and you celebrate all the things in me. But other people don't, and I want to be liked by other people too."

But there is a freedom that comes when you know who you are in Christ, and I feel like all of us are trying to grasp our identity in Christ, not just "you're a great person." No, it's in Christ, and it is the gospel.

Dave Wilson: I've said, again as a preacher for 40 years now at all these different sermons—thousands probably over the years—tell me if I'm wrong because I think I've said this too many times. Every decision we make every day and what we do and what we pursue is based on two beliefs. Again, I'm probably totally wrong because there's got to be 50 beliefs, but there's two.

I call it theology-identity. Theology is your belief about God. Who is he? What's his character? Is he present? Is he not present? Does he love you? Character of God. And then identity is who am I? And I think if you get either one of those wrong, you're in trouble.

Because if you think God's not here, he's not present—which I believed a lot of my life a lot of times because my dad wasn't, I projected that onto God—so I felt alone, and so nobody, he doesn't love me, and that's my identity. So now I walk in a room, and what have I got to do? I've got to impress.

But if I believe he's with me and he loves me and he forgives me and I'm his son, I walk in a room and I'm like, "I don't have to impress anybody. The greatest being in the universe says I'm worthy." It changes the way you walk into any room. It's like I own the room. Not in a prideful way, but the spirit of God just walked in the room. Even with a person, it's like, "That person over there is alone. I'm going to go over and talk to them." Why? Because I don't need the most important guy in the room who's got the PhD and making all the money to think I'm impressive. Who cares?

Shelby Abbott: I think you're right on, honestly. But I think it's an element of neediness. We don't like needy people just in general; they're kind of bothersome. But if you take the idea of neediness and take it to God, neediness is something that God really loves. He loves needy people. He loves it because it gives him an opportunity to shine in their lives. So if we're needy of God in our heart of hearts—not just like, "Yeah, I'm needy of God, I need him to provide for me"—but no, if you're genuinely needy of God, desperate almost, you won't need to be needy of other people.

Now, I'm not saying you don't need connections. Of course, you need connections, like your sons. They need connections with other people. They need to be reminded that, "Hey, I love you. Your father loves you. You do have friends." That kind of a thing. But not a codependent neediness.

If you have the neediness before God and know who he is in your life, you will not constantly be clamoring for the attention of other people. You won't be flummoxed by the fact that other people don't like you. You will walk into a room and, as Sam Allberry once said, you will walk into a room and go not, "Here I am," you will go, "There you are." And you will live your life the way that Jesus did, as a servant, as laying your life down for other people.

And that will be enough for you. I'm not talking about being a doormat and letting people walk all over you all the time, but I am talking about pouring your life out into other people. Self-centered people, the people who walk in a room and go, "Here I am," they're actually the most miserable people in the world. Because when you're focused on yourself, you're constantly wondering what do other people think of me? I've got to impress.

Ann Wilson: It's exhausting. It's the worst thing. And we know people who are miserable all the time because they're self-focused. Either they're super arrogant and they're really into themselves, or they're super arrogant in the way that they hate themselves. They constantly think about themselves; they're like narcissists in a way because they're constantly thinking about themselves.

Shelby Abbott: It's two sides of the same coin. If you get into the roots and the depths of the gospel, you will understand that I don't have to be that person who everybody's got to pay attention to, and you won't be that person that's like, "I hate myself; everything about myself is awful." You won't be those people. You won't be that coin at all. You'll change that coin in for the beauty of the gospel, and the gospel will be enough for you. You will have the smile of God, and you won't need the constant approval of other people.

Ann Wilson: One of your chapters was on empathy, gospel empathy. And it's exactly what you're talking about. I love that when you walk in a room, you're looking for that person: "There you are." I have to be so surrendered to Jesus and to have my eyes on him first so that I can have the eyes of the Father on other people. And that makes such a difference. It brings freedom. Because there is bondage as we all talked about if we're constantly thinking about ourselves and our fears and how we're lonely. Those are legitimate things that we feel, but the answer is the gospel.

Dave Wilson: Now, let me ask you this. Are people that really grasp their identity in Christ—are they lonely?

Shelby Abbott: Yeah, I think it can be. Because I think you do need other connections with people. Five years ago, when I was in the height of my pain and I didn't really have any close friends, I grasped the gospel then. And that season of being in the valley was really difficult for me. But we all know that when you're in the valley, that's the most fertile soil. And that's the time, I think, when you're really wrestling that you dive into God's word and remind yourself of the truth.

Nobody is exempt from difficult times. I just had a friend pass away a week and a half ago from ALS. And he had a seven-year battle of struggling with it. And I thought about him multiple times every week of just the loneliness that he probably experienced of being trapped in his own body. Eventually not being able to walk very well, eventually being trapped in a wheelchair, not being able to move his arms and his legs. Eventually, he had to get a feeding tube so he couldn't eat anymore. And he had a machine that he was able to look at and communicate through.

But eventually, at the end, when he went into hospice, I got to visit him and talk to him, and he eventually lost the ability to breathe, and he passed away a week and a half ago. Just went to his funeral on Friday.

I mean, he's doing great now. He's great. But if you think about the contrast that my friend went through of seven years of decline, what did that make entering into heaven feel like? Yes, undoubtedly, he felt lonely. And about two years ago, maybe three years ago, right when he had just gotten in his wheelchair and he wasn't able to move very much and he was really affected by it, I went to go visit him. He lives like an hour from me. I went to go visit him. He's in his wheelchair, and I said, "Hey, not to be irreverent, but what do you do all day?" Because he couldn't move; he couldn't do anything.

That's something a real friend would ask. And he asked through slow speech, he said, "I read my Bible and I pray because I want to get to know Jesus as much as I can on this side before I see him on the other side." And I said that kind of perspective only comes through the element of suffering.

Nobody who's doing really well right now is thinking that. I'm not thinking that. I'm not thinking I've got to read my Bible and pray all day every day. Now, I've got responsibilities, of course, but he was forced into that. He was pushed into that; he had no other option. So he could wallow in self-pity, he could be bitter and angry about the fact that God cursed him or whatever, but he chose it as an opportunity to say, "I'm going to go deeper because my Savior loves me, and I know that he cares about me despite the fact that I live in a broken world with a broken body that's been tainted by sin."

He got to know Jesus as much as he could on this side, and when he entered into heaven in mid-October, he's breakdancing right now. Breakdancing with Jesus. He taught me so much in two sentences: "I want to get to know him as much as I can before I see him on the other side." If only I had that kind of perspective. Undoubtedly he felt lonely, and he grasped the gospel in those moments to answer your question. Undoubtedly he did, but that doesn't mean it wasn't a struggle for him.

So I feel like, yes, you can wrestle with that, but the times of the valley help you to appreciate the mountaintops even if that mountaintop never comes in this life. The mountaintop for him is right now. Next life. And when I saw him in the hospice center, I was like, "Hey man, if I don't see you again," which I never did, "I'll see you on the other side, and it'll be a blink for you."

It's still tragic; he left behind an eight-year-old and a six-year-old and a wife, and it's heartbreaking in so many ways. But his funeral—hundreds of people showed up to it, and the gospel was preached, and everybody there knew that his commitment to the Lord was rock solid. I even had a friend who came with me to the funeral, not with me, but she was there, and she was like, "Makes me want to re-evaluate my life because she's kind of walked away from God." And I'm like, "May it be so." That kind of stuff only comes through suffering.

So if you're going through a time right now, the answer is not run away from God and search for something else. The answer is run toward him. Go deeper. There are more layers to the gospel. I think it's 1 Peter 1 that talks about how angels long to look into the beauty of the gospel. Angels are ancient creatures that never see the bottom of the gospel. Why? Because it doesn't exist. It goes on for eternity. If only we had that perspective to look into the—if you think, "Oh, I know this. I'm a child of God. Yeah, I know this. What's it matter if I don't really have this and this?" Well, you need to go deeper into the gospel. The answer, yes, is the gospel, but maybe you have a very shallow view of what that is. Depth will take you more and more into the heart of your Savior in ways that you've never experienced before, and the beauty of it will just floor you. You'll be in awe of it.

And sometimes God does that through his word, sometimes he does that through a sermon or a worship set, but most of the time, I've found he does it through the body of Christ. He brings other Christians to you to help you see the reflection of Jesus in your own life.

Ann Wilson: I think too, that's why I have to be in the word every single day. Every day. Because it reminds me who God is and it reminds me who I am in him. And that might sound like, "I can't read the Bible every day." You could listen to it. There are ways now; technology. We all are doing the things we want to do every day. Somehow we get it in there.

And I'm telling you for me, it's a life and death kind of thing. I have to be, or I become like the culture. We're being disciplined every day by the culture in and all around us every single moment.

Dave Wilson: But what I hear you saying is interesting because that's true: Word of God every day, prayer every day. You are saying people every day. Again, might not be every day, but you need people regularly in your life with all that. Because I think there's part of us in the church that thinks, "I just need God, that's it. I just need Jesus, I'm good." And that is true, but he made us in a way that, nope, that's not true. You need people. You need community. You need the body.

Ann Wilson: But as we're in the word and we're spending time with God, it changes how we interact with people. As we said, it puts our eyes on the people rather than what they can do for me. I'm thinking, "What can I do for you? I see you." Even just if it's that, "I see you."

I think this topic of loneliness, discipleship—we're hitting all the topics.

Dave Wilson: Shelby has gone deep with Paul David Tripp. There's something going on there that I don't even—I don't need Paul David Tripp anymore. Shelby has always been deep himself. He's a great thinker and he's a great theological thinker.

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